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Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: eshaw] #1116090
05/19/11 01:52 AM
05/19/11 01:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: eshaw
ValkyrieMome, this is another reason that cage materials need to be scrutinized very carefully. The purchased wire you're referring to is probably coated with a galvanizing material after welding is done. This is done to keep the wire from rusting. However, this coating causes the urinary tract infections you're probably all aware of but in the wrong environment, such as around a heat source if does and will give off a lethal fume. I know this for a fact from doing welding over the years. This is something you do not want to do without proper protection.


Actually, no - it is a coating on the wire of the cage - seemed to be like an oily - possibly petroleum-based - film. Similar to the kind of fumes that iridescent materials give off and make gliders ill, this was giving off some sort of fume. We know that there is a distinct smell to iridescent materials, and have come to recognize that smell as being a red flag. I wonder if these cages have a similar kind of smell?

And, I thought the galvanized thing had been disproved? I don't want this thread to get off track - so please check in the Fact or Fiction section to verify.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116093
05/19/11 02:44 AM
05/19/11 02:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
I am saddened that those babies all died, and I pray that we find a way to resolve this.

Eshaw has a good point about contacting the manufacturer, but also mentioned that manufacturers if looking for cheaper ways of doing things may look overseas for parts/coverings where codes MAY not be as strict and it is harder to quality control things.

I personally would never use a PVC coated cage. Ever. When I first got my gliders I researched places to buy cages and found one supplier who is himself a bird owner and he took me in his office and showed me files of reports of toxicity of cages being sold for birds and other pets.

It was to say the least, alarming. So there is ONE supplier I will buy a cage from. One who cares about the animals going into them, and gets regular testing done on his cages.

Truth be told, I am uneasy about some homemade cages being made from PVC. The type used for water lines (white plastic) I am sure is safe, but the type used for electrical conduit may not be and I wouldnt use it. I also wouldnt use any plastic coated wire for toys. But will say that the exposure to that is far less than the exposure to a whole PVC coated cage.

Dont mean to hijack the thread here...


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116106
05/19/11 06:24 AM
05/19/11 06:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
I, too, use a Martin's Cage and have for several months. I have had no problems and my gliders have suffered no ill effects. I know that everyone is talking about Martin's cages being the possible cause for this issue. Has it been determined that ALL of these cases were purchased at the same time and in the same batch? And did they ALL order directly through Martin's? And now this one, Daisy's baby - her cage came from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets so it's obviously the Klubertanz material but was it purchased from Martin's? Martin's sells cages not only for sugar gliders but for other animals, as well. Do we know if any other animals have suffered the same ill effects?

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116125
05/19/11 07:44 AM
05/19/11 07:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 513
Vancouver, WA
GliderGuy540 Offline
Glider Lover
GliderGuy540  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 513
Vancouver, WA
$800 in vet bills, a dead glider? or $200 for a new cage? You do the math... Why take the risk given all these reports? Just my opinion.

We don't know if these cases are related to pvc cage wire, but if there is a potential risk I would weigh my options carefully.


--==Kevin==--
Suggie-Daddy to Willow, Wicket, and Loki
:grey: :grey: :plat:

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: GliderGuy540] #1116175
05/19/11 10:29 AM
05/19/11 10:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
For those following this thread, please refer to the following link for more information. MBP News on Cage Issue

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116188
05/19/11 10:49 AM
05/19/11 10:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave
kjgoulet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
I have a cage made of PVC pipes and a "garden mesh" or plastic fencing and we've had no problems. The fencing just to add, isn't PVC coated wire as I didn't want stuff coming off. Actually it's what many toys are made out of!

It's actually the cage they came with just a little redone to add doors and change the fencing which was screen held on with velcro. I'll upload a pic to show. We haven't had any problems but it is the white water ones.



The fencing is what our kitchen is made out of and what has the Wodent Wheel held into place.



Just a picture of the kitchen with Casanova wondering what I was doing lmao!

Other than the frame any PVC is covered with fleece sleeves for them to climb on.

**Cage is pretty bare cause I was cleaning it and the gliders were in my closet sleeping away in their "mom's cleaning our cage" cage haha!

Now, I hope that these babies didn't die in vain and we can find out what is going on with the ones that are still alive. Thoughts and prayers to all those suffering with their babies hug2


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116196
05/19/11 11:02 AM
05/19/11 11:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict
Sherri  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
Kristi, I don't think it is an issue with PVC pipes themselves but the PVC plastic coating on the wire of certain cages.


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116207
05/19/11 11:36 AM
05/19/11 11:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave
kjgoulet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
Oh haha yeah probably but I know JillMarie was talking about PVC cages so I just thought I'd mention mine and that we haven't had problems and it is the water PVC not the other kind.

I hope we hear some good news soon on the gliders and what's the cause.


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: kjgoulet] #1116265
05/19/11 02:46 PM
05/19/11 02:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: kjgoulet
Oh haha yeah probably but I know JillMarie was talking about PVC cages so I just thought I'd mention mine and that we haven't had problems and it is the water PVC not the other kind.

I hope we hear some good news soon on the gliders and what's the cause.


I was saying the white type made for water usage was fine smile


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116273
05/19/11 03:09 PM
05/19/11 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave
kjgoulet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
Oh lol yeah I was kinda bouncing off the walls from my coffee and probably read it a little too fast tounge

But... Any updates on how these babies are doing?


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116282
05/19/11 03:30 PM
05/19/11 03:30 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
lets see if i can answer some of these q's..

alden, no smell, or oilyishness.. no way to forsee this issue..

the plastic mesh is fine

this is not affecting all pvc coated wire.. just from certain suppliers..

no Pocket Pets does NOT purchase their cages from Martins..
martins obviously got a hold of some of this wire before Pocket Pets did. they both however chose to use "quality wire" it is that "quality wire from a quality supplier that is the issue. the problem being we don't know how far down the line it goes before the "modification" was made. it is unknown as to what exact modification was made and at what level. Pocket Pets uses 2 places that make cages for them exclusively, 2 different wire suppliers. it is only the one supplier.

the reason for the hush hush is because they are waiting tests results to come back so they can figure out EXACTLY what the problem is... the fear is that with a lot of attention, the "culprit, may hide the wire and when it is found out what it is.. that there will be no wire to prove it. then later on single rolls be sold...

at this time money is not the problem, finding out what exactly is causing this within the labs etc.. is..

some vets don't want to treat without definitive proof, test results etc..

getting them from their cage and getting as many fluids as possible as early as possible is the main thing.. there are far more gliders surviving this than dying from it, so something is working. a lot of different meds have been tried and many others still being tried.

I think everyone understands the frustration and the pain that is going on with this and hopefully everyone understands this is not a martins and pocket pet issue, but a wire issue that may expand out much further than the glider community. hopefully the test results will come in today or tomorrow and then the "culprit" can be caught this time.

this is a very tragic situation with many victims as many different levels. concern is always about the gliders, but there is also a huge concern the wire may be hidden, and brought out later to cause even more havoc.

for what is now common knowledge the cages bought from martins since oct of last year are at risk, but not necessarily affected. pocket pet cages seem to be localized to sales a couple of months ago.

this seems to be a slow gradual affecting toxin of some sort, it seems to go into the system at very small amounts, unknown whether it is being ingested by them cleaning their feet and grooming. being absorbed through their skin or whether this is an inhalant toxin it is unknown whether it is on the wire or within the pvc coating itself.

i hope this answers some of the questions.

without some more definitive some of the vets don't want to treat..

so....

remove the glider from the cage (I am suggesting the pop up kennels from walmart, (makes great travel cages later on) do not use anything that was in that pouch.

offer your glider lots of fluids to flush whatever this is through the system, i know of several gliders that it has taken 5 days or more to get better..

if it is a pocket pet glider, please contact their customer service.

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116285
05/19/11 03:50 PM
05/19/11 03:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
I'm curious...how long did it take for the symptoms to crop up after the cage purchase and are the time frames typical in all or most cases?

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: DCMuffin] #1116291
05/19/11 03:57 PM
05/19/11 03:57 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
about 2 months after the gliders are placed in them, it is typical; however there have been gliders like in callejeans case where it took 4 months to show the first signs, and as soon as 1 month.. but the average has been 2 months

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116293
05/19/11 04:02 PM
05/19/11 04:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Thanks, B...have had and been using my Martin's now since December 11, 2011 and to date, no issues. I'll remain cautious and pay attention but so far, so good. Thanks for the info. smile

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116295
05/19/11 04:05 PM
05/19/11 04:05 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
without it being known what exactly the issue is, there is no way to know if all of the wire in a roll is affected, or if this is a hit and miss throughout the roll, or even if only a few rolls in a lot.. there just isn't enough definitive information known.. about the only thing known is what it isn't.. LOL

Last edited by Bourbon; 05/19/11 04:08 PM.
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116297
05/19/11 04:08 PM
05/19/11 04:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Clear as mud...LOLOL

Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116306
05/19/11 04:17 PM
05/19/11 04:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
This is so sad. Hugs to all those who have sick babies or lost babies. I just want to cry now. Heart breaking!


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116672
05/20/11 06:47 AM
05/20/11 06:47 AM

D
DaisysMama
Unregistered
DaisysMama
Unregistered
D



Just wanted to update everyone. My girl is doing better. She still isnt drinking much, but we are giving her anitbiotics and vit c supplements from the vet, and her tremmors have calmed down and she is much more active. She is eating OK, and was crabbing at me all night (a good sign for her...she really likes my husband better who was out last night, haha). We still have her in the tub, but for now its working well until we get a new cage.

I did talk to Pocket Pets and they were VERY helpful, and i can tell they are just crushed by this too and doing everything in their power to figure out what is going on and to stop it. It was easy for me to blame them at first, but they are totally stepping up and i really respect that. If anyone else's affected glider is from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets - i urge you to call them.

I'll continue to push the fluids, and may even take her back to the vet for another dose of SubQ fluids, just to help her out. I also just learned that my shipment of HPW complete will arrive today, so i am excited to get her on another diet too.

I'm optimistically hopefull and extremly thankful to Pocket Pets for being so receptive.

Last edited by DaisysMama; 05/20/11 06:49 AM.
Re: 20+ babies are dead [Re: ] #1116679
05/20/11 07:27 AM
05/20/11 07:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Hey DaisysMama...just as a side note here, you could get her one of the pop up dog kennels from Wal-Mart...at least she'd be in a cage and be able to climb around and such and might feel a bit more secure. Just wanted to throw it out there. smile

I'm so glad to hear she's doing better and on the mend. I'll continue my thoughts for her.

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