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Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: ] #1150185
07/23/11 10:44 AM
07/23/11 10:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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Originally Posted By: Celticfaery
I feel totally ignorant asking this question and if it's in the wrong place, please feel free to place it properly, moderators.

Where can I find out about the different colours of gliders? And what does COI mean? And why does everyone else know and I don't?

I got my gliders from a friend. Two are mother and daughter and are standard grays...or is it greys? The third is a blond faced white. I have no idea what lions, mosaics, leus, etc. are.

I will tell you though that as a relatively new owner, I think that all sugar gliders are beautiful, no matter what colour they are. My husband and son think I have lost my mind but I can't help it. I am a fully fledged member of the glider cult and proud of it!


To not get this too far off topic, I sent you a PM. Look for the flashing envelope next to "My Stuff". wink


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1150211
07/23/11 12:04 PM
07/23/11 12:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Quote:
My gosh--look at all the new dog breeds we have--labradoodles, puggles, and so forth--is this "for the good" of the K-9 species? Probably not, but people still do it.


Yes, it is "good" for the dogs. If labs were only bred to labs, the gene pool would tighten. By cross breeding, it widens the gene pool. The poodle genes adds to the lab genes.

The United Kennel Club recognizes this benefit. With the UKC, you can take two similar dogs (say a sheltie and an american eskimo). They have similar size, similiar hair, similar temperaments. Breed them and then take one of the puppies and breed to a sheltie. Take the pup and breed to another sheltie... and on the 4th generation down from the original sheltie/american eskimo breeding, they are considered Shelties again. This introduces fresh dna/genes to the gene pool while still maintaining the breed standards. You can't take a Doberman and breed with a sheltie and have the same results though. The two have to be similar.

Just breeding a leu to a grey widens the gene pool. The take that het and breed to another grey. Take that het and breed back to a leu to have leu babies. They now have different dna/genes to build off of.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1150244
07/23/11 01:37 PM
07/23/11 01:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Thailand
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I have enjoyed the thread. Cheers to all that have contributed in the discussion.

This is a little off-topic but still talking about lineage and breeding.

My gf, that I bought our joeys for seems determined that she would like a joey (or two) from our pair of greys. I have friends with young families here that I think will make great "forever" homes for some joeys. I am not sure I could go to a market and sell them, if I didn't know their future homes would not take care of them. In a country like Thailand where there is no social security, your retirement fund or pension is your family. When you are old and cannot work anymore, your family takes care of you. No family, means you rely on charity, beg or starve.

For those of us in western countries, this sort of mentality may seem strange, but it's a fact of life and there is an ingrained feeling of family and no amount of reason can shake this. As a foreigner in Thailand, you try to understand the culture, regardless of personal beliefs.

Being relatively young with a view to a long term view of life here and the fact I am now hooked on these little guys, I feel that I will need to start from scratch with these little guys' lineage. I don't intend on being a large scale breeder. But lineage is something I can start to pass on to future owners of any joeys that may be produced.

I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Sica has previously discussed the situation regarding her poor babies and mill breeders here. Maybe the importance of lineage, recording of lineage and the detrimental effects of in-breeding can be passed on.

Again, cheers for the interesting and informative discussion. I am a newbie and am learning. Thanks again for the advice from more experienced and dedicated breeders. I know you are not making big dollars from breeding. I have previously applauded the efforts of many of the forum members who ensure that my furry cousins will never become extinct regardless of environmental factors, again I say thank-you.

"For the good of the glider".


Australian Expat in Thailand

:grey: Milo
:grey: Coffee
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151060
07/25/11 02:06 AM
07/25/11 02:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
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eshaw Offline
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eshaw  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
VegemiteKid, It was explained to me about the seemingly unbelievable post numbers that occur here. This is an excerpt from an email I received from one of the moderators in regards to my statement. "There are a lot of people who come to this board on a daily basis. Some old, some new...but the one thing that we TRY to do is to make sure everyone knows they have been heard. THIS is why we will answer people with the "blah blah blah", as you put it. It also serves to bump a thread to the top of the page when it hasn't been answered in a while so that others see it again as a new post. Our hope is that we show people they are being heard and not ignored.

So, while it may seem to you that we're typing it just for fun or to rack up posts, we look at it a little differently. Just wanted to clarify."

Thanks, and that makes sense. Not trying to offend anyone.


Last edited by eshaw; 07/25/11 02:11 AM.
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151083
07/25/11 03:08 AM
07/25/11 03:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Portland, Oregon, USA
I agree with Nancy (hwm4ev). Not caring about the lineage of the gliders you are breeding leaves you in a position to produce many problems for either yourself with wiggle babies or missing limbs, or for someone you sell your babies to. It's irresponsible to assume your babies are fine without the background to show that they are.

There's reasoning behind keeping track of certain animals and choosing the lines we continue to breed and the ones we stop breeding. When a persistent problem arises out of one blood line we (the responsible breeders) do everything we can to avoid breeding from that line. It would be the same in breeding a dog or a horse. You pick the best bloodlines to further the development and health of the animals you produce. You don't breed poor stock. In our case you don't breed poor or non-lineaged gliders.


Matt Compton
Gliders NW
email: glidersnw@gmail.com
cell: 503-737-9540
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider [Re: GliderNursery] #1151231
07/25/11 02:02 PM
07/25/11 02:02 PM

J
JessieR
Unregistered
JessieR
Unregistered
J



Wow, Shelly, she is incredible!!!! Is she still available? I might have to be extra nice to my fiancÚ the next little while... grin

Last edited by JessieR; 07/25/11 02:03 PM.
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider [Re: ] #1151429
07/25/11 06:42 PM
07/25/11 06:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: JessieR
Wow, Shelly, she is incredible!!!! Is she still available? I might have to be extra nice to my fiancÚ the next little while... grin


Hmmpf...I mis-read that; at first I thought you were saying that I was incredible! roflmao

Sending you a pm. smile


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151431
07/25/11 06:50 PM
07/25/11 06:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 566
richmond,indiana
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richmond,indiana
Sorry I wanted to pipe in again!
I think lineages and COI's are very very unspeakably important!
I think my earlier post was misunderstood.

I mean that by most people not breeding to make the glider population better, is not me saying that people aren't using lineages and such because to me thats not the case at all. Most people in the glider ads post lineages!

I meant they aren't improving it on a deeper level. Such as breeding to rid diseases and traits that could lead to cancers and thing like that. (just an example.)

I know some are, but really how many of us are microbiologists and genealogists. I've actually studied around those subjects and would have no idea how to start.

So to sum it up.
Lots of breeders are helping by improving gene lines.
And very few are helping to rule out diseases and bad DNA strands?

Is that better
I don't anyone to think i'm the bad kind of evil!!!

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: GlidersNW] #1151448
07/25/11 07:15 PM
07/25/11 07:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Thailand
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Thailand
I am not disagreeing with anyone regarding lineage but if you do disagree with what I will probably do, you don't more than likely don't understand the circumstances in which gliders are produced and sold in "Thailand". This is not a western country with the same standards. I said, "I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Lineages or even acurate ages oop are not given here. So the small colony owner doesn't have any joeys but continues to buy off mill breeders who sell joeys as young as three weeks oop? Is that what you would prefer to happen in Thailand? I don't know how culturally aware you are regarding Thailand or south-east asia. But people who think they can make 30-50 dollars for a joey are going to do whatever they want to do to feed their families. They won't ever do what you think is "for the good of the glider". My girlfriend works at 7 Eleven here and she earns less than 200 USD per month working 6 days a week for 12 hours of those days. If a mill breeder can produce 6 joeys a month, they have nearly earnt more than my girlfriend does working 72 plus hours a week.

If you think mill breeders are bad in the US, I am sure Sica can attest that millbreeders here are worse.

Maybe I should, just leave it to them like you suggest?



Last edited by VegemiteKid; 07/25/11 07:27 PM. Reason: Made more generic as unusure who previous comments were directed too.

Australian Expat in Thailand

:grey: Milo
:grey: Coffee
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151518
07/25/11 08:34 PM
07/25/11 08:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 566
richmond,indiana
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richmond,indiana
@vegemiteKid
I think there's a thread from a woman in Thailand
and she talks about where she got her babies.
Which was from a huge mill breeder. So just from reading that we got a really true look at mill breeders over seas.

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151571
07/25/11 10:15 PM
07/25/11 10:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
I am not disagreeing with anyone regarding lineage but if you do disagree with what I will probably do, you don't more than likely don't understand the circumstances in which gliders are produced and sold in "Thailand". This is not a western country with the same standards. I said, "I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Lineages or even acurate ages oop are not given here. So the small colony owner doesn't have any joeys but continues to buy off mill breeders who sell joeys as young as three weeks oop? Is that what you would prefer to happen in Thailand? I don't know how culturally aware you are regarding Thailand or south-east asia. But people who think they can make 30-50 dollars for a joey are going to do whatever they want to do to feed their families. They won't ever do what you think is "for the good of the glider". My girlfriend works at 7 Eleven here and she earns less than 200 USD per month working 6 days a week for 12 hours of those days. If a mill breeder can produce 6 joeys a month, they have nearly earnt more than my girlfriend does working 72 plus hours a week.

If you think mill breeders are bad in the US, I am sure Sica can attest that millbreeders here are worse.

Maybe I should, just leave it to them like you suggest?




Very interesting to hear that point of view. It's very sad to have those circumstances, but they are what they are. And it is wrong for us in the United States to assume that all of our ideals can be imposed on other countries. Honestly, I never even considered that the circumstances were much different there than they are here.

It's obvious that I feel that animals should not be bred without lineage, but you do have a very good point. If you start with the two you have, and start tracking it ~ then at least it starts somewhere. By doing what you can with what you have available to ensure they are not related, that's the best you have.

I guess you are in the same boat the original breeders here were in over 10 years ago. They didn't start out with lineage either.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151729
07/26/11 03:39 AM
07/26/11 03:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
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Serious Glideritis
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New Jersey
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Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151750
07/26/11 07:39 AM
07/26/11 07:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
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Iowa
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Iowa
But, on a side note, there is a big difference. You could import gliders with known lineage and start with that for your ground zero. If all you wanted was standards I'm sure you could find a breeder willing to work with you. I think I'd try this with a little networking before I'd just start totally from scratch. I also think that you're in a better position to do this than the locals. Just an idea.

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151755
07/26/11 08:14 AM
07/26/11 08:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 777
Lecanto Florida
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I think you should breed Indonesia gliders, keep track of lineage, keep in touch with persons you adopt to for health issues. Instead of importing lineaged sugar gliders, and while on the subject, imo lineage only tracks possible genetic problems. It DOES NOT gaurantee healthy babies unless we remove any and all health issuesd gliders from the breeding programs. If they are not known then they may creep up at a later time.
If you do start a program and if your gliders are large big boned sugar gliders, and if you plan on exporting, I would be interested in a few babies.We need different blood lines in our glider populations, people I guess may not be looking down the road for five or ten years. Where will you get non related sugar gliders? Have somebody import 200-300 grays from...a mill over seas.How is that any different than what Vegemitekid is starting from scratch and not from a mill. What will happen when we only have every glider has a color background? What happens if they have genetic defects that we can't see and we remove them from breeding? What and where do you get the gliders to replace the ones that you had to remove from breeding? Where do you get sugar gliders to breed out the color lines, do we keep adding many different colors together...

I am one of the breeders that started over ten years ago breeding sugar gliders, but I was specific in the type of gliders I was looking to breed.

Even the colored gliders started out with NO lineage.
Or from a suspected mill breeder...

When I started breeding and now was for a body type, temperment(cause I love to handle moms, babies, and dads together) Health, and for the fun in it. I do it because I enjoy the first look of a joey at me while with mom. The first nip or taste, the first climb on while following mom or dad on to my arm. I do keep track(lineage) on my gliders and don't give it to pet only homes as it doesn't prove that the glider is healthy and is only needed if someone is gonna breed them and sell babies and so forth.
This is a little bit of a sore subject and not sure why I posted in it. Because we were called and accused of things as we started before lineage on gray gliders and most of the color gliders only had the color lines being kept track and not the grays. Although things have changed that's one reason why I don't advertise alot in the community.
Art

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151827
07/26/11 11:20 AM
07/26/11 11:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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Art, I hope you didn't take offense to my comment about how we started breeding gliders without lineage. It was just to prove a point. It all started somewhere. And when you take wild caught animals and create a breeding program, there wouldn't be any lineage available. So to start a new species as pets, the foundation breeders did what they could. I'm didn't mean for that to come across as condescending in any way.

There are ways that VegemiteKid can do things, such as what he is doing, adding Indonesian gliders, or importing them as suggested. I agree with you though, if he imports gliders with lineage from the United States, then that won't provide any new blood for us here if he ever chose to export to us.

Where will we be in another 10, 20, 30 years? I've heard a few people make mention of that. Without new blood, we will have nothing but a tight circle of genetics and all gliders will at some point be related to each other, even if distantly related.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1151984
07/26/11 04:45 PM
07/26/11 04:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
GlidersNW Offline
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Portland, Oregon, USA
I'm sure vegemitekid that you meant well...some of us misunderstood because we are not in that country. When you make a blanket statement like 'for the good of the glider.' you must also put it into context. Wich you did not do at the beginning. Now you have rectified that issue, and it has become much more clear.

The importing glider thing is VERY expensive. If you are doing it on a continual basis, at least with Salt water fish and the USDA. It takes Thousands and thousands of dollars to get licensed and bonded to import from overseas. I'm not sure if there are the same types of legal issues in Thailand, but you would have to do the research. Importing a pair or two or one shipment of gliders is much less time consuming and costly, but they still if coming into the US must go to a USDA quarantine facility where you must rent the facility from the owner and pay the USDA fees for processing. This is the way it works with Finches. This can cost a lot of money. I'm sure there is some differences between the US and Thailand. It may be far easier or far more complicated and expensive to do so there.

Good luck. I'd research it. =0)


Matt Compton
Gliders NW
email: glidersnw@gmail.com
cell: 503-737-9540
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: GlidersNW] #1152007
07/26/11 05:47 PM
07/26/11 05:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Thailand
V
VegemiteKid Offline OP
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Thailand
Hi all. I would love to do almost everything suggested here. Western standards and cultural thinking don't always apply here.

I probably should have made this a separate topic and my situation in Thailand has sort of taken over the original thread.

I love the idea of importing Indonesian gliders and I would love to have two gliders with lineage. But expense, as previously mentioned (red tape not even mentioned) probably prohibit this. Gliders with lineage here may me possible but difficult. I am training my girlfriend up slowly.

Tonight she took the the joeys off me cause I wanted to do their first nail trimming. After talking a while and showing a youtube clip from "Luckysugarglider", she did it herself. When she took them off me she "didn't want them angry at us" for trimming their nails. But she did a very good job.

I am a new sugar glider parent and exporting gliders to the US is many, many, years away. I do like the idea of getting the Thai bloodlines mixed with US bloodlines, but that is something possible in the future. I am still getting to grips with my first two joeys.

I know having a litter with my first two joeys is not all perfect but neither is leaving it to Thai mill breeders. I probably adopted my first sugar gliders a little unprepared, but I am an animal lover and regardless how inexperienced I am, I always knew I could provide a better home than the average Thai impulse buyer in a market in Thailand.

I am the grandson of a Texan veterinarian who emigrated to Australia and passed in 1977 at the age of 99. My grandfather spoke little of his life in the US. He is rumored to have toured with the "Buffalo Bill Wild West Show". He could do all the lasso tricks, shoot over his shoulder and a great horseman. When I was a young child we had dingo pups and wallabies. My grandfather was offered a lion cub to raise, until my grandmother put the matter to rest. wink He captured an escaped lion. Performed head surgery on a man that was hit by a train.

I have worked in Laos for four years, I have released owls, eagles, parrots and even a young monkey back into the wild after rescuing them from roadside markets where our company house was the only foreigners in town. There were three of us. To rescue the monkey, it cost me around 20 US Dollars.

Rambling a bit I know, but what I don't want people to think is that, I am ignorant to the dangers of inbreeding and other health issues regarding having joeys without lineage. The deeper this thread gets into this topic, the more I wish I had posted in a new thread. As much as it is related, it moves away from my initial topic of conversation "Breeding for Vanity" ie breeding colored gliders for the enjoyment of owners.

It is more moving into, "I have two joeys, with no lineage... is this better than leaving it mill breeders in Thailand?" I know that 98% of forum members have had little experience in Thailand, but life and culture of Thailand cannot be compared to western standards or criticized without further understanding the situation either.

Last edited by DCMuffin; 07/26/11 06:05 PM. Reason: Removed link

Australian Expat in Thailand

:grey: Milo
:grey: Coffee
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1152012
07/26/11 05:52 PM
07/26/11 05:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Thailand
V
VegemiteKid Offline OP
Joey Member
VegemiteKid  Offline OP
Joey Member
V

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Thailand
Breaking the forum rules - self delete.

Last edited by VegemiteKid; 07/26/11 06:29 PM. Reason: Deleted what I thought was a good youtube vid for trimming nails.

Australian Expat in Thailand

:grey: Milo
:grey: Coffee
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1152053
07/26/11 07:39 PM
07/26/11 07:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
GlidersNW Offline
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Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
I think mill breeders in general don't have the best in mind for the animals...wether it be gliders or dogs or anything else. So as far as what you are doing...it is better to try to do what you can than to do nothing at all.

Good luck to you in your ventures.

If you want to talk about import/export of lineaged animals maybe we can talk. I have a friend that travels back and forth to several Asian countries. If we can do it legally, then I would be more than happy to help you out.


Matt Compton
Gliders NW
email: glidersnw@gmail.com
cell: 503-737-9540
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: GlidersNW] #1152055
07/26/11 07:54 PM
07/26/11 07:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Thailand
V
VegemiteKid Offline OP
Joey Member
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Joey Member
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Posts: 84
Thailand
I appreciate your thoughts Matt.

I am not even sure where to start on such issues as importation/exportation of non-native animals from 0r to Thailand. I speak decent Thai/Laos but nothing on the scale required to tackle this sort of topic given that I have two 3-4 month oop joeys.

BTW this is the youtube video of nailclipping I found earlier. Maybe people who know more than me think this is worthy of stickying in "Health and Hygiene"?



Australian Expat in Thailand

:grey: Milo
:grey: Coffee
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1152146
07/26/11 10:35 PM
07/26/11 10:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
GlidersNW Offline
Glider Lover
GlidersNW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
We have a nail trimming pouch. We take the glider and place them in the nail pouch and close the top. Then pull one leg carefully out the top and gently close the top around their arm and clip the nails on that arm. Then go from foot to foot til you are doen. The gliders are much easier to handle this way. Then we always give them a yoggie or some play time afterward if they don't want a treat. Sometimes mealies...whatever they like. =0)

Also, we use cat nail trimming scissors. They are more stable even than the professional toe/finger nail trimmers because they have a hole in each handle for your fingers to go through like a large pair of scissors would, but they are small enough to see the glider's nails better around/through. They have a little notch that the nail goes in in each jaw of the clippers and they are great. Some pet shops also sell them as lizard or bird nail trimmers.

Sorry DCMuffin...meant to email that...was in a hurry. Also, wasn't paying attention.

Last edited by GlidersNW; 07/26/11 11:55 PM.

Matt Compton
Gliders NW
email: glidersnw@gmail.com
cell: 503-737-9540
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1152162
07/26/11 10:49 PM
07/26/11 10:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,216
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,216
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Let's keep this thread on topic, please.

Originally Posted By: GC Rule #3
Please keep the posts closely related to the topic. If the topic sparks another thought for discussion, please open a new thread. Post messages in the most appropriate forum. Please refrain from posting the same message in more than one forum. Only one of those messages will remain posted. Do not be offended if moderators move your thread to a forum that fits your topic. In a large forum like ours, this kind of housekeeping is necessary. It is not personal. Please do not use excessive CAPS or bold lettering. It makes your message very hard to read and implies you are shouting.


Thank you!

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1175152
09/23/11 06:41 PM
09/23/11 06:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 300
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
pannonia Offline
Glider Explorer
pannonia  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 300
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid


To be honest, apart from the fact that some of these guys colors are a bit rarer.... what makes them any less special or deserving of someone to take care of them?

"For the good of the glider". I am not a biologist or a genealogist, but is breeding these lines "for the good of the glider" or to make us happier?
what's wrong with they way God, Allah, Buddha or any other higher power you believe in, made them any less special?

I don't know if it's me who just don't get it, but I have never seen a picture of a healthy, happy glider that didn't melt my hardened heart.

For the good of the glider, not just to satisfy our vanity for something considered, rarer, different, more valuable.

I would rather a happy, healthy, bonded glider who can't stand to be without me and me without him/her, than a single leu or any other type of glider worth a gazillion dollars.

"For the good of the glider", not us.
Is it just me?

Am I missing the point?"


I am intrigued as to what the larger communities opinions are.

To paraphrase my initial post....

"Is it just me? Am I missing the point?"



idea So following your train of thought we should have never started to breed out different breeds of dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs...etc.! We should have left everything the way they were created, right?! Hmmm let's see: as far as I know people breed animals to enhance certain traits and/or to improve the species. For example they breed out cows that produce more milk, right or wrong?! But let's get back to the original subject. Why are we trying to breed out colours in sugar gliders? It brings up an other question: Why do people have preferences when it comes to pets? Some prefers german shepherds while others prefers chihuahuas! People pays big bucks for spyhnx cats while others are siamese lovers. When it comes to pets people have preferences wether you except it or not, that's reality & pet breeders try to cater to pet lovers. Why are the coloured sugar gliders so expensive? Because you don't get those colours every time your suggies breed so the colour becomes rare & if that's the colour you prefer well...that's the price you pay! The colour it self doesn't make the animal more "precious". So after all you are indeed missing the point my friend! If you are concerned about animal breeding you might want to contact some race horse breeders & ask them what is the point of breeding horses that they will race after for money! Is that for a good of the horse or is it for capital gain? I'm not trying to insult anyone who owns or breeds race horses nor do I want to pass judgement on them I'm just simply trying to make a point here! Regarding your post: you might not realize, but it is, after all, sounds insulting to any glider person (breeder or owner) when you assume that coloured sugar gliders gets special treatment & better care than their gray counter parts. All these breeders (above) shouldn't have to justify or explain to you why they breed for colours nor do the owners should feel bad about their preference of colour!
Thank you for reading!


Proud Mom to
:leu: Snow :rtmo: Flake :grey: Gustav :plat: Mercury :leu: Diamonelle , Piccolina :grey:
& my precious Miracle and Amoretto

www.torontosugarglider.com
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1175159
09/23/11 07:36 PM
09/23/11 07:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave
kjgoulet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
I've only read the first page and thought I'd put in my thoughts..

You mentioned dogs have been bred for 100s of years yet we still breed for certain colors. Those that are more desired and some breeds have suffered. Dalmatians have more aggression because of overbreeding the last couple decades (or so I've heard.) People are all into the blue pitbulls.. Yes they're beautiful but breeding has also led to issues with them as well.

No matter what animal it is, people will always breed for those they like. I like blue pitbulls, but love mine to death. I like leus and mosaics, yet I adore my greys and my wf. Creme-inos and albinos freak me out with the red eyes tounge but to those who like them, that's for them.

You bring up a valid point but animals will forever be bred to suit our desires whether it be color, temperment, size, etc. It's how things have always been and how they always will be. I say as long as the lines aren't getting too inbred and COI's stay low I'm all for it smile wouldn't have my Romeo without it. Although I do have to say, a wider gene pool would be great but if I've heard correctly gliders can't be imported from other countries?? Maybe I'm just pulling things out of my butt lol but I swear I read that somewhere..


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1175241
09/23/11 11:33 PM
09/23/11 11:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
GlidersNW Offline
Glider Lover
GlidersNW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 324
Portland, Oregon, USA
I think the issue here is simple...the question isn't why aren't standard greys as special as 'colored gliders.' The fact is they are...to each glider owner, the gliders they have are the ultimate. Just like in life certain people have certain tastes that differ from person to person. Like cars...dogs...homes...colors...the types of people they are attracted to...

As the old saying goes...different strokes for different folks.

To each their own. It's not a matter of special vs not special.

Just my two cents worth.


Matt Compton
Gliders NW
email: glidersnw@gmail.com
cell: 503-737-9540
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1175424
09/24/11 03:06 PM
09/24/11 03:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 300
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
pannonia Offline
Glider Explorer
pannonia  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 300
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid


I am the grandson of a Texan veterinarian who emigrated to Australia and passed in 1977 at the age of 99. My grandfather spoke little of his life in the US. He is rumored to have toured with the "Buffalo Bill Wild West Show". He could do all the lasso tricks, shoot over his shoulder and a great horseman. When I was a young child we had dingo pups and wallabies. My grandfather was offered a lion cub to raise, until my grandmother put the matter to rest. wink He captured an escaped lion. Performed head surgery on a man that was hit by a train.

I have worked in Laos for four years, I have released owls, eagles, parrots and even a young monkey back into the wild after rescuing them from roadside markets where our company house was the only foreigners in town. There were three of us. To rescue the monkey, it cost me around 20 US Dollars.

Rambling a bit I know, but what I don't want people to think is that, I am ignorant to the dangers of inbreeding and other health issues regarding having joeys without lineage. The deeper this thread gets into this topic, the more I wish I had posted in a new thread. As much as it is related, it moves away from my initial topic of conversation "Breeding for Vanity" ie breeding colored gliders for the enjoyment of owners.

It is more moving into, "I have two joeys, with no lineage... is this better than leaving it mill breeders in Thailand?" I know that 98% of forum members have had little experience in Thailand, but life and culture of Thailand cannot be compared to western standards or criticized without further understanding the situation either.


Wow we getting to know you more & more. Also we getting to know more about Thailand & glider mills & such! Would you like to share some stories about your own gliders? Would love to read about them. agree


Proud Mom to
:leu: Snow :rtmo: Flake :grey: Gustav :plat: Mercury :leu: Diamonelle , Piccolina :grey:
& my precious Miracle and Amoretto

www.torontosugarglider.com
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1175526
09/24/11 08:43 PM
09/24/11 08:43 PM

D
Delirium
Unregistered
Delirium
Unregistered
D



I hope it's not too old to post, if there's rules on that I'm sorry but I feel absolutely compelled to reply to this.

I don't breed, never have, in fact the time I had joeys were from the only suggies I ever had, who were dropped off to my door quite literally, so maybe my opinion doesn't count so big but here it is anyway-

I think the breeders are half and half, but mainly I believe the ones that do it for money are like Pocket Pets, they don't care about color they care about PROFIT, so they'd rather mill by number than color. I also believe there are many who just love suggies so much that it's not so much that they love one color better, it's just they're SO intrigued by new colors and what may come next.
I've thought about breeding one day, not to better the species OR make money, if I did it would be to share the joy those rescues gave me while they were in my care with others. Would I go for and breed other colors? Sure, it seems amazing to see the changes. But if I bred a brand new color would I go for the highest monetary offer? No, I'd go for the best adoption application from the best breeder who would want to continue the new color without inbreeding AND who's gliders are companions as much as breeders.
This is coming from someone who believes NO dogs OR cats should be breed period until the shelters stop having to use euthanasia from lack of space.
Truly I wish they'd pass a law where you HAVE to meet requirements and only have a set number of pairs for breeding anything. But my biggest point is, to me, and hopefully many others in their right mind, it's about the differences. It's not to make money, because when you breed anything the right way you often lose money. It's for a love of them and the difference, the diversity, is beautiful much like people of different races; there's not one better, just a beautiful DIFFERENCE. = )

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1176061
09/26/11 03:00 PM
09/26/11 03:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 300
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
pannonia Offline
Glider Explorer
pannonia  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 300
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
I am not disagreeing with anyone regarding lineage but if you do disagree with what I will probably do, you don't more than likely don't understand the circumstances in which gliders are produced and sold in "Thailand". This is not a western country with the same standards. I said, "I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Lineages or even acurate ages oop are not given here. So the small colony owner doesn't have any joeys but continues to buy off mill breeders who sell joeys as young as three weeks oop? Is that what you would prefer to happen in Thailand? I don't know how culturally aware you are regarding Thailand or south-east asia. But people who think they can make 30-50 dollars for a joey are going to do whatever they want to do to feed their families. They won't ever do what you think is "for the good of the glider". My girlfriend works at 7 Eleven here and she earns less than 200 USD per month working 6 days a week for 12 hours of those days. If a mill breeder can produce 6 joeys a month, they have nearly earnt more than my girlfriend does working 72 plus hours a week.

If you think mill breeders are bad in the US, I am sure Sica can attest that millbreeders here are worse.

Maybe I should, just leave it to them like you suggest?




You sound kind of angry! The point she is trying to make was lost due to the fact that we are half a world apart! There is nothing we can do about Thailand & mill breeders there! It's a sad fact & disturbing at the same time, but it is what it is! Case closed! No need to be sarcastic! It's not our fault that people in Thailand mill breed them to make extra money to feed their families! If you are so concerned about it you might want to take it up with the local authority instead of lashing out on GC members! All these people here try to give you point of views & advice to the best of their knowledge. You either except it or not it's up to your discretion, but there is no need for you to insult or degrade an other member here!


Proud Mom to
:leu: Snow :rtmo: Flake :grey: Gustav :plat: Mercury :leu: Diamonelle , Piccolina :grey:
& my precious Miracle and Amoretto

www.torontosugarglider.com
Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? [Re: VegemiteKid] #1226976
02/09/12 01:25 PM
02/09/12 01:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 738
Columbia, TN
StowawayGliders Offline
Glider Guardian
StowawayGliders  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 738
Columbia, TN
I dont understand why it is such a big deal. As long as the breeders do what they can to ensure the health and keep the coi low. no one gives grief to dog breeders who try to achieve certain colors or body type.

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