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Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115653
08/03/01 12:24 AM
08/03/01 12:24 AM

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Right now I'm see a cricket in plastic box...cricket's coming out of the old skin...cricket's new skin is so white...ek..it's normal for cricket to shredding their old skin? Or this white cricket is SICK?<P>Can I feeding Oreo the chicken instead crickets?? Or I am going to be okay feeding Oreo the cricket expect the strange and died crickets??<P>Worry Mommy!

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115654
08/02/01 02:10 PM
08/02/01 02:10 PM

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Just out of curiosity. What is the percent of aflatoxins in their natural environment? What is the percentage of glider deaths from aflatoxins? Since there must be aflatoxins in their natural environment shouldn't they have a genetic resistance to it? Who has lost gliders to aflatoxin and are positive of it? I think I'll ignore this scare until more questions are answered. What about arsenic in the water? Should we have the water asseyed to make sure? toxic Black Mold!! Soot!! ingrown toenails!! etc. etc. I would really like to see the study and findings about aflatoxins, does any body have a reference? Please excuse the sarcastic nature of this post. It was done tongue in cheek. []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/] []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/] []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/]<BR>[This message has been edited by Snakeman39 (edited 08-02-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Snakeman39 (edited 08-02-2001).]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115655
08/02/01 02:52 PM
08/02/01 02:52 PM

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<A HREF="http://www.usda.gov/gipsa/newsroom/backgrounders/b-aflatox.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.usda.gov/gipsa/newsroom/backgrounders/b-aflatox.htm</A><P>Snakeman, I was wondering when you'd get into this -- []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/]<P>The link above is a USDA link which discusses allowable levels. Hope that helps. <P>------------------<BR>Lucy

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous] #115656
08/02/01 05:12 PM
08/02/01 05:12 PM

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Hey LLetton,<P>I've been moving to a new apartment. (sweat) The kiddos are super excited now that they have a whole room to roam in. <P>I have an experiment to try. Someone mentioned that Brisky's was too hard to chew for SG's. Well you could do an evperiment in which you first chew some Briskey's and then go out and chew a tree. This needs to be done at least 3 times and with different trees to determine if indeed Brisky's is too hard for the teath of our lovely and extremely delicate charges. I'm looking foreward to hearing the results of the chew test. Eucalyptus would be best if there is anybody in La La land who might have them available.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115657
08/02/01 11:25 PM
08/02/01 11:25 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 4,761
Lincolnton, NC
SugarLove Offline
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Ellen,<BR>Please do let us know the findings. We are all praying for you and your glider family. I know the pain all too well that you are going through. As I commented on the phone the other night..when I lived in VA beach (not so long ago..and i must admit i miss it) I did my shopping at the same pet store and some may recall I lost three gliders within just a month's time frame. A necropsy was only done on one of them, which showed an enlarged liver and liver damage, among other things...don't know if this is related or not...but I am sharing because I know the amount of pain involved in losing a glider, nevertheless more than one so close together. If there is ANYTHING I can do to help, feel free to call anytime. And thank you and Bruce for sharing your story with others...<BR>My heart and prayers are with you.<BR> []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/heart.gif[/]:<BR>

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115658
08/02/01 11:47 PM
08/02/01 11:47 PM

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Snakeman, send an email to Mary, The Glidertree. She is a USDA licensed breeder in Texas and is registered on the breeders list. She has lost many gliders to Aflatoxin in 1999 and the fall of 2000. Her gliders were contaminated from raw peanuts. <P>Gliders that are contaminated may hide the illness for quite some time. A necropsy needs to be done on the expired glider to be positive. <P>The gliders are poisioned by the toxins the liver produces trying to rid itself of the mold. The liver in the meantime becomes damaged. Then in the end the glider dies from shock. Classic signs of shock are being lathorgic and pale colored in areas of the glider that are normally pink in color.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Judie (edited 08-03-2001).]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous] #115659
08/03/01 09:07 AM
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Now I'm a little concerned as well. From what you just posted Judie, it sounds very possible that that's what Livi died from and I almost lost Bella to as well. Has any glider ever recovered that has been affected by these aflatoxins?<P>------------------<BR>Proud mommy to Kiki, Bella and new baby, Toby

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115660
08/03/01 09:56 AM
08/03/01 09:56 AM

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Robin, while Bruce was talking at the Getaway, I thought about your gliders, and wondered the same thing. The fact that Bella is healthy now is a good indication, even *IF* this is what caused Livi's death. And it is an *IF*, but it sounded similar to your situation. And I think the answer is "yes" - some do survive. Maybe many. I think we just don't know. <P>Bruce talked about an aflatoxin instance in which around 200 dogs were reported to have died. But it's not known how many thousands of dogs ate from the same batch of food without getting sick, or getting sick and recovering. <P>As has been said repeatedly, I think this is cause for *concern* (as you said), but not panic. That probably can't be repeated enough.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous] #115661
08/03/01 11:15 AM
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Judie,<P>I'll check with Mary and see if there is documentation. As I understand it, the peanut, or anything for that matter, left for a while will pick up mold from the air. Molds are a natural decomposing agent that helps break down dead material. There is mold all around us, for instance, take a slice of bread moisten it lightly and wipe the moist side on a table or top of a cabinet. Then put it in a ziplock bag and put it in a dark cool place for a week. When it comes out you will generally find 3 to 4 different type of mold growing on the bread. DON'T open the bag but dispose of it after a couple of weeks. I do this with my kids as a way to teach about how mold is airborne and how it grows. Sometimes if the conditions are right mold happens. The best way to avoid it is using fresh, for human use, peanuts. I don't feed much peanuts even though my guys love them, because I can never be sure how long they have been sitting in the store or when they were harvested. We really need the documentation since hearsay is generally just that. Lletton has the right idea in creating a data base of glider deaths from both known and unknown causes so we can keep the panic out of the knowledge we gain.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115662
08/04/01 12:05 AM
08/04/01 12:05 AM

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Beckah: I agree with you that ZooMed's response was unsatisfactory about what the<BR>"feed vegetable matter...nothing special" they use is & whether it's safe. I have sent a followup email to them & will share the response once it's received.<p>[This message has been edited by Glideroo (edited 08-03-2001).]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115663
08/04/01 12:10 AM
08/04/01 12:10 AM

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Recognizing that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I will tell you that two sources I have read this week indicate that aflatoxins are heat resistant, so cooking is not a good deterrent, if labs are using that as a way to "cleanse" their feed.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous] #115664
08/03/01 01:46 PM
08/03/01 01:46 PM

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Lucy: I agree with you. What makes me nervous is the fact that the retorting process ZooMed uses pressure cooks the canned mealies/crickets at "80 degrees C. Very hot...for a short amount of time. It's the same process used for canning tuna. Any bacteria, fungi, protozoa's or anything<BR>of the sort would certainly be killed during the cooking process, without question. We personally haven't done any carbon analysis on our retorted insects, but..." 80 degrees C is only 176 degrees Fahrenheit which isn't that hot. I also know for a fact that surgical instruments sterilzed in autoclaves at temps higher than 80 degrees C for a prolonged period of time have been tested & found to still show evidence of fungal spores as fungal spores tend to be very hardy little buggers. <p>[This message has been edited by Glideroo (edited 08-03-2001).]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115665
08/03/01 09:06 PM
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FYI...The dogs Dr. Ross was talking about were in the same village as the PEOPLE who died of aflatoxin poisoning. The dogs were noticed dying first. The source is known in those cases and it was corn. I don't remember what year it was, I think 7-10 years ago.<P>(Is that correct, Ellen?)

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115666
08/05/01 02:15 PM
08/05/01 02:15 PM

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Glideroo, at least you got a response back from Zoomed. I too emailed them asking specifically if they tested for aflatoxins in the insect feed as soon as Lucy posted this. I got no response. I have decided to back off the Can o products until we are sure they are safe. Now, I need help in finding an alternative as they were the only crickets or mealies that my crew would eat. I have tried live. I have cut them up and even iced them. I have also tried freezing first. This bunch just won't touch them. Can someone tell me what to use an alternative? []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/confused.gif[/]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115667
08/05/01 02:44 PM
08/05/01 02:44 PM

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Gliderluv: I'm not too sure they'll respond to my second email. I have to admit I wasn't too diplomatic about what I had to say in it. Here's a copy of the second email I sent to them: <P>Subj: Re: Can o' Crickets<BR>Date: 8/3/01 1:58:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>From: PaxLG<BR>To: jklavir@zoomed.com<P>Thank you for your response. However, your response does not set my mind at ease. Aflatoxin fungi can be found in certain vegetables, nuts, & stored grain supplies. The fact you use "vegetable matter...nothing special" becomes an issue especially if the vegetable matter is not considered "human grade which is fit for human consumption" as those are the types of vegetables, nuts & grains most likely to have higher levels of the aflatoxin fungi. I would ask you check the following links to understand just how serious/deadly aflatoxins can be:<P><A HREF="http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~crobbert/CriticalControl/Foodmolds.html" TARGET=_blank>http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~crobbert/CriticalControl/Foodmolds.html</A><P><A HREF="http://www.usda.gov/gipsa/newsroom/backgrounders/b-aflatox.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.usda.gov/gipsa/newsroom/backgrounders/b-aflatox.htm</A><P>Right now, several owners of sugar gliders who bought live mealies/crickets from mealie/cricket farms in a certain area of the country are having their gliders die & the gut-load feed given the mealies/crickets is suspected of carrying aflatoxins. Pathology testing will be completed shortly to verify if the suspicions are true. <BR>Additionally, the aflatoxins get into the digestive systems of the insects & it is unclear as to whether the retorting process you use actually can kill the aflatoxins.<P>Since ZooMed sells a lot of the canned mealies/crickets all over the country for use by owners of exotic pets such as reptiles & sugargliders, I think it behooves you to be sure the vegetable matter you use is considered human grade to lessen the risk<BR>of aflatoxin contamination for pets of your customers. Additionally, the FDA has established action levels for aflatoxin present in food or feed. These limits are established by the Agency to provide an adequate margin of safety to protect human and animal health.<P>I am asking that you provide me with the following info:<P>1) advise on whether the vegetable matter used is considered "human grade" fit for human consumption.<BR>2) whether or not you have done any testing for possible aflatoxin contamination in the vegetable matter you use for feeding mealies/crickets as well as whether you have done any testing of your mealies/crickets themselves to determine if aflatoxin levels have been noted. If not, do you plan to do any such testing on a periodic basis or not?<P>I value my sugarglider dearly & do not want to feed any mealies or crickets as part of his diet if there are any concerns that these insects could be infected with aflatoxins. I am sure I'm not alone in my concerns (other glider owners I know of are extremely concerned over this issue as well) & hope that your company would also show concern over the matter by pursuing appropriate testing of the vegetable matter you use as well as ramdom testing of mealies/crickets for possible aflatoxin contamination. <P>I await your response with respect to the concerns/issues outlined above & thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter.<P>Rereading my second email, I realize I did come on a bit strong with ZooMed but it ticked me off that they chose not advise me previously as to whether they ever run tests for aflatoxins on the gutload feed they use & I did ask them that in my first email. The fact that they did not provide me with an answer is actually an answer in itself as it tells me that ZooMed most likely doesn't run any such tests. Won't be surprised if I get no response from ZooMed this time around. <P>

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115668
08/05/01 02:47 PM
08/05/01 02:47 PM

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OOPS! Double-post due to a problem with the board so have taken this one down<p>[This message has been edited by Glideroo (edited 08-05-2001).]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115669
08/06/01 12:17 AM
08/06/01 12:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
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Sheila Offline
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Ellen, if the findings show it had nothing to do with the insects, please check out the possibility of mold in the area. If mold is in walls of a human's home it can cause liver disease which is life threatening. From what I have heard, the liver can be covered with growth's when exposed to significant amounts of mold. Could there be mold in your area?


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Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115670
08/10/01 02:26 PM
08/10/01 02:26 PM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,603
Virginia Beach, VA.
Ellen Offline
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Virginia Beach, VA.
Sorry to wait so long to answer. I have been having PC problems.<P>Linda the dogs were only 2 years ago and they were in Texas. The ones that lived had been taken off the dog food (came from a manufactured dog food company) and given extra Vit.E/ They improved and lived. But in the mean time they documented that 200 dogs died and I didnt get the numbers on the ones that lived. But I remember it being impresive.<P>As of now I have lost no more gliders. Thier activity level has picked up and so has thier appitite. Thank God. So the more days that pass by the better chances they have. I have been told to keep them off of all bugs and worms for another month. My first baby died on July 4 and the last one was Windy while we were at the SGGA. So they have been off ALL worms and crickets for 3 weeks now.<P>I am hopeing to hear today from the Lab that is doing the testing on the bugs and all that we sent in. I will post it as soon as I hear. <P>Lucy, as far as mold..we havent found any. We had an enviormental enginer (sp?) come out and he ran test on everything he could. The other thing is Bruce is SO highly allergic to molds and many other things that I would think it would have affected him. He cant even BE in the room with a scented candle that even isnt lite.<P>I will keep you all posted. ANd whateve the results of testing I will post them.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely


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Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115671
08/10/01 04:48 PM
08/10/01 04:48 PM

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Hi,<BR>You mentioned the State in which these insects came from, what is the name of the Company or Farm they are from? The mealworms that I feed are from a place called GHANN'S CRICKET FARM, but doesn't give an address, but there is an 800 number. If I was to call, what would I want to ask? Thanks

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115672
08/10/01 04:59 PM
08/10/01 04:59 PM

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1. What do they feed their insects (gut-load)? (the answer will hopefully be human-grade feed - meeting USDA requirements for human consumption).<P>2. Do they test their feed for aflatoxins? If so, what is their acceptable level of aflatoxins?

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous] #115673
08/10/01 05:02 PM
08/10/01 05:02 PM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,603
Virginia Beach, VA.
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Virginia Beach, VA.
The state the ones I got came from Mississippi. <BR>If you were to call I would ask what type of feed they use and how and what do they use to house them in. Anything with corn or or a "chicken mash" is not good.<P>I spoke with the Lab just a few min. ago and they said the results won't be in until Monday as the 2 toxocoligst are out of the office until Monday. Some results have come back but the Tech could not interpert them.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely


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Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115674
08/10/01 05:08 PM
08/10/01 05:08 PM

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Thanks, I actually just found Ghann's web site, I am going to send an e-mail, and ask those ?'s.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115675
08/11/01 08:31 PM
08/11/01 08:31 PM

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Are there any alternatives instead to using meal worms for gliders?I use Zoomed's Can O' Worms.But in a different post,I read adding any other vitamins to their food would throw off their diet if use BML,which I do.Theres a bird water supplment,Lory-Life,which the place we got our glier would give her every night.Would also throw off her diet?I will also e-mail Zoomeds.<P>Amanda and Dottie []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/blush.gif[/]

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115676
08/14/01 01:19 PM
08/14/01 01:19 PM

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I feed my gliders soy nuts (sold at Exotics Central) as treats and I was wondering if they are safe cause I heard that soy is bad for gliders, also I wonder if they could contain the mold/bacteria that can be in reg. peanuts?

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115677
08/14/01 02:55 PM
08/14/01 02:55 PM

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Soynuts can also contain the aflatoxin.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115678
08/14/01 10:45 PM
08/14/01 10:45 PM

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I know that you all have said not to change anything but I don't want to give them stuff that may be harmful. Are you all going to quit giving them corn? I am going to quit giving them soynuts and may quit giving corn too.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115679
08/14/01 11:42 PM
08/14/01 11:42 PM

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Corn should be okay as long as it's "human" corn...stuff you buy in the grocery store. Keep away from the corn you would buy at a feed store.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous] #115680
08/15/01 08:35 PM
08/15/01 08:35 PM

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Ok, that scared me cause corn is their favorite food.

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115681
08/16/01 11:51 AM
08/16/01 11:51 AM

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I'm very careful of what I feed. Mostly fresh fruit and frozen veggies. I seldom feed peanuts or pecans, because thats all they will eat. The worry I have from all this is the meal that I feed the mealworms with. I only use store bought rolled oats, wheat germ, bran, and corn meal that's fit for human consumption. But it sits in a bowl in the open air in my apartment. Still that is what all mealworms feed off of even in the store. The stress level goes up with each prounouncement of new dangers. Remember soy? I stay away from it after I did my research. Yet high protein baby cereal is recommended and it is mostly from soy isolate. For protein I feed a lot of partially cooked beef, pork, and chicken drumstick. My gliders munch happily away and the two joeys are in the best of health from mom's milk. Occasionally I will feed a monkey biscuit. I tried Brisky's and got not a bite. They wouldn't touch it. I even have a little mazuri and they won't go near it. BML is a sometime thing with them, they seem to eat it when they need it then ignore it. I suppliment with calcium fortified nectar so I don't worry about calcium. Also they seem to get nutrition enough from devouring a fuzzy mouse twice each week. They eat them bones and all. The first thing they eat are the soft parts of the mouse which provides them with all the nutrients they need. We all have glideritis real bad but we also need to have a little common sense. Remember thet despite all we do "stuff happens."

Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ] #115682
08/16/01 08:15 PM
08/16/01 08:15 PM

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Moderators, could you close this thead? I think it's gotten so long and confusing that it's probably no longer helpful. I think Ellen may be posting preliminary results of the Texas A&M testing in the next few days, and I'm sure she'll open a new thread on the topic at that point. THANKS. <P>------------------<BR>Lucy

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