Shelly said..




but Kitsune said...


so according to kitsune... if it is born a leu.. the plat line stops there... so a leucistic glider can not have a plat het percentage...

and before a het is marked or sold as a plat het .. it must prove itself first??



so the people that are buying plat hets may actually only be getting leu hets? unless they produce a plat? and that offspring will determine whether the het is actually a leu or plat?


so the breeders that are actually breeding the leus with the plat or the hets... are actually diluting the lines?
so further down the line it will be harder and harder to have the plat gene?

what happens if the plat hets are paired with mos.. and all they produce is expressed mos..

This is true, Bourbon. I see many gliders marked as "100% plat and 100% leu het" but this is not possible. A joey that carries both genes is platinum. However, it's not platinum that is being diluted. It's leucistic. The same way the cremino lines diluted the albino lines--it's now very difficult to find albino gliders, since a pure cremino paired to an albino will only produce albino het creminos. Since most creminos have come from cremino-only ancestry, creminos are usually double cremino hets, and do not carry the albino gene unless indicated by the breeder (it would still be a 50% albino het). I really doubt that the leu lines will come to a point of rarity like the albino lines have since leucistic lines are healthy and plentiful, but if the leu lines were less populated and platinum was more common than leu, there would be a real possibility of polluting the leu lines to the point where leu is difficult to achieve without platinum contamination. It is now considered undesirable to pair a cremino with a true albino because the albino lines need to be preserved and re-established.

If a platinum parent that is het for leu (which is the most common right now, since most people are pairing plat to leu to get easier plats) is paired with a grey non-het parent, ALL joeys are 50% plat het, 50% leu het. ONLY if a platinum parent carries 2 platinum genes will the joeys be 100% plat het every time. This can ONLY be proven if a platinum is paired with a leu or leu het and only platinum (or grey) joeys are born to the pair. If a leu is born, the plat parent is proven leu het.

ETA: sorry, that might have sounded differently than what I intended when I say that leu blocks platinum--what I mean is that when looking back through pedigrees, if you come to a leucistic glider, any platinum ancestry before that leu is no longer passable. The leu ancestor cannot carry platinum, and so any future joeys cannot carry platinum from THAT leu ancestor's lineage. Platinum can still pass from other ancestors that do not have a leucistic "blocking" the platinum gene's progression down the line.

so what is happening to the plats that are being diluted with the mos??? and the wf???

Mosaic and white face are co-dominant genes, which means only one parent is required to pass the variant. They are also COMPATIBLE with recessive genes--which means you can have a mosaic and/or white faced platinum, leu, cremino or albino. The reason the platinum gene dilutes the leucistic line is because it's dominant over leu--it would be like taking a leucistic line and breeding for grey. The grey will come out on top and make the leu gene harder to find.

The theory has been disproven. There ARE double hets that have proven out by producing both platinum and leu.

Also, how can you prove whether or not a leu carries platinum? It's impossible...

Because the leu gene is able to work with the platinum gene to produce platinum it is therefor impossible to prove whether or not a leu or leu het also carries the platinum gene because when paired with a platinum or platinum het they will still produce platinum, regardless of whether or not they carry the platinum gene.

However, with that being said, there are many instances where people have paired platinum/Leu hets or platinum het/leu hets to leu or leu hets and gotten only platinum or only leu and not both. I feel that the reason for this is because when the 2 genes are paired with each other one will become more dominant. Which gene will be dominant is different with each case. In some pairings Platinum will be dominant and you'll get only platinum and in other pairings Leu will be dominant.

For example: you could pair a Platinum/100% Leu Het male to 2 Leucistic females and one might produce all platinums while the other produces all leucistics. It's pretty much just luck of the draw.

As proof of my "theory", there have been instances where a Platinum Het/Leu het only produced leu, but their offspring produced platinum, this proving that the parent was, indeed, a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het. It disproves the theory a glider can only pass on one gene or the other.

Bernard(belonging to Shelly Sterk) is a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het.

http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=6889

Bernard has produced Leucistics(which makes him a 100% Leu Het) and his son, Kalvin, was paired with a 100% Leu Het and produced a Platinum, which proves Bernard out as a 100% Platinum Het.

It's the perfect example of how Leucistic and Platinum "faced off" and Leucistic won, meaning that Bernard and his mate were only able to produce Leucistics. However, Bernard was still able to pass the Platinum gene onto his joeys because even though he can't express the platinum gene doesn't mean it's not there.

I hope that all makes sense...

Could it be that the leu masks the platinum? Like it can mask the mosaic and the white face? If so, is that what you are calling leu 100% plat hets? Because if so, then there is at least one case where there ARE hets for mosaic and/or white face.

*shrug* That's how I was taught it worked. I've heard it from a few people...have been looking at lines. I haven't seen any proven double hets, can you link me to one? I saw a plat paired with a leu het boy and all of their joeys were plat or grey. Can't remember the name, but I'll look for it...

http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=6889

I linked it above. Bernard, the grandfather, is a double het but the database hasn't been updated to show it. Bernard produced leu and his son produced platinum when paired to a 100% Leu Het(no plat in her lines), which makes Bernard a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het.

Excuse me if I am posting in where I don't belong but... I am really new at all this coloring and het stuff and am trying to understand. I have a breeding pair, Honey Bee is a Leu, Katahdin is a Grey 100% Leu Het 12% Plat Het from Haley lines whose father was a Leu. I read here and get confused.

*[This means that a joey from a platinum parent is NOT necessarily a platinum het; if the platinum parent carries leu, either gene has an equal chance of passing to a joey since the plat parent must pass one of the genes, but cannot pass both. A leu cancels all platinum potential, and you can consider the plat gene "blocked" from traveling any further at every leucistic ancestor.]*

I have understood that the Leu and Grey genes are so strong that it is pretty certain my joeys would be one or the other, either Leu or Grey Leu Het with VERY small Plat Het. But with what was posted above, I am understanding this would mean my Katahdin is not a Plat Het at all because he carries the Leu gene and that any joeys they would have, have no chance of being Plat because Honey is a Leu. So, that would mean, this branch of the Haley Plat line dies. Am I understanding this correctly? I am not trying to throw my hat in the Plat selling ring, I am keeping all the babies I have. Just trying to understand all of this.

Don't feel bad tracy I am also confused I have a little girl that I have been told is what is considered to be platinum but according to this debate she is not I do agree with bourbon on the platinum we need a coloring and distinctive markings to look for on the platinum so that people can tell if the baby is a platinum. That way nobody can come in and say well you misrepresented what you had because that is wrong I would like to see pics of what are the actual platinums not just what they are refering to as platinum mosaic but the actual platinums

I was wondering why albinos were rare. I bought my albino from GBG but noticed like nobody else selling any. Besides pet glider, that just put one up on her site.

So let me get this straight. If you take an albino, with no creme history, and put it with a creme-ino, with no albino history, you will get a creme-ino, het albino? I just don't understand why you wouldn't get a grey double het. Like why wouldn't it be a grey either het albino, or het creme-ino. How would it come out creme-ino, if the albino has no creme so that gene doesn't know how to produce creme-ino at all.

http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=2259

Miranda is also a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het.

However, I think that her case is extraordinarily rare. Most double hets won't actually produce leu and platinum because one gene becomes dominant over the other.

If what Guerita135 is saying is correct, then it would stand to reason that if Miranda (double Het joey) had 1 Lue joey then ALL her joeys would be Lues. But aren't there cases where the breeder has said 1 of twins is Lue and the other twin Plat? Again if what was said is correct, this could not be true... both joeys would be Lues or both be Plats.

Also, if I am understanding what was said earlier in the posts correctly. Because Mirandas mommy was a Lue the Plat line died and Miranda would not be Plat Het. And if you look further back in Mrainada lineage... Haley (great grand mother) is a Plat who had a Plat joey who had a Lue joey (Mirandas mommy).

Still as confused... maybe moreso. I agree that there should be a VERY consistent visual attribute that makes the glider a Plat.

Look at the other three pics I posted. They are more true-to-life. The first pic had weird lighting.

I'm not sure I buy the story that there can't be double hets and that the leu kills the line. If that was true, we would not have the cases where both leu and plats are being born from the same line. If the leu kills the line, then NO line would be able to do this, yet it has, more than once. That proves double hets exist.

I believe that a joey born of a plat parent is a 100% plat het, just as a joey born of a leu is a 100% leu het. From that point forward, there is never a guarantee that the joey carries any color gene. The percentage indicates the percent chance that it received the gene from the parent. You only know for sure once it reproduces the desired color. At that point, the database should be updated indicating the glider is a 100% het.

The fact is that a glider is either a het or it's not.

I think part of the problem may be the database not being kept updated. In the case of Bernard, I need to update that information.

Let's put it this way...

If I were to breed multiple pairs of 100% Cremino Het/100% Leu Hets together and some of the pairs produced all cremino and others produced all leucistics, would that mean that their joeys could only carry one gene or the other? OF COURSE NOT! All it means is that when double hets are paired together sometimes one gene will over-power the other. Just because a gene is over-powered doesn't mean it no longer exists.

So, why do people assume that when leu and plat is crossed only one gene can be passed on?

I think that the theory about gliders only being able to carry one gene or the other was made prematurely and falsely. Not enough was known at the time about platinum to be able to properly "diagnose" how the gene works.

Unfortunately, the theory was spread like wildfire and now everyone takes it as fact instead of theory, which was all that it was. The theory, however, has been dis-proven multiple times and needs to be thrown out.

Also, in my opinion, I believe that part of the reason that the theory was spread so much was to increase the desirability of certain breeders' joeys... It's interesting because I noticed that when the theory first came out the breeders who were sticking to it and spreading it the most were those with "pure" platinums(a.k.a.- platinums with no leu in their lines or who were only low % hets).

Maybe it's just me being paranoid, but I've seen breeders do alot crazier things to sell joeys and shoot down the competition...

It's only been the last few years since the platinum breeding has taken off. Don't forget, we used to be told there was no such thing as a plat het; so no one put those gliders into a breeding program to try to attempt getting plats out of them. Their lineage most likely doesn't indicate they are plat hets either.

But, since December 2008 when plat hets were proven to exist - the entire plat breeding program has expanded. Theories were discussed, we stick to those theories until they are disproven.

It has been proven that plat hets exist, and that double hets for plat and leu exist.

He is now updated in the database.

Awesome! Thanks for taking the time to update him Shelly. I wish everyone else would keep their gliders updated. It'd save alot of time and trouble.

Speaking of which, I should probably go through a check to make sure all my gliders are up-to-date, lol. I usually check every couple months.

i also believe that gliders can be double hets as proven.

regards,
nancy in detroit

so not true... my first post.. says... we had plats in 2001 2002.....and yes they were placed into a breeding program

Yes, you did say that they were in a breeding program, but you also said



It is true that breeders weren't selling plat hets "as hets" because it was thought that it had to be a plat to reproduce a plat; just like a WF or mosaic. Look at how rare the plat gliders were a few years ago and how plentiful they are getting now. There has been a major increase in their production in the last 3 years.

I didn't say they didn't exist before 2008.

Trying to understand others' opinion and knowledge on this topic. So forgive the questions here, playing a bit of devil's advocate. (And as you'll see, I'm not genetic expert, lol.)

A glider can be het for plat and het for leu.
A glider can be platinum and het for leu.
A glider can be leu but cannot be het for plat.

Correct?

The reason is that the plat gene and leu gene are on the same allele. If that is true then how can both genes be on the same allele in a platinum glider, but the same two genes can't be in a leu glider?

There was a theory that a glider had to express the platinum color to reproduce a platinum; the same as the WF and mosaic gene, indicating that plat hets do not exist.

Silverbelle was born in 2000 and Haley was born in 2004. So it took 4 years to disprove that theory when Beatrice & Bosley (both grey gliders) had Nicky, a platinum.

We have had a platinum, leu het glider paired with a leu het reproduce both leus and plats. We have not had a leu, plat het glider paired with a non plat reproduce a plat. Right?

Is anyone trying to disprove this, or is this an assumption because it hasn't happened yet. Or, is there a scientific/genetic reason it can't happen?

good question shelly. i hope we can get an answer on this.
this is what they are saying on lgg-
a leu, plat het paired with a leu het with no plat. in the lines will not produce a plat. only leus or grays.

regards,
nancy in detroit

Actually, I think they are saying that if the joey is a leu, it can't be a plat het. That is why they're saying it would only be able to reproduce leus and greys.

ok.

wondering if somebody can prove this different.

regards,
nancy in detroit

I am going to be completely honest here and say I am thoroughly confused. I have a trio of gliders which consist of Chenelle (MSG) & Prada (MSG) which are two platinums that are 100% leu hets paired with Armani SLF who is a leu & also a 100% platinum het. Chenelle has produced two sets of twins - both consisted of a leu and a platinum. Prada has had one joey which was a platinum. Prada currently has two more joeys ip. Does this help this conversation or clear anything up? I am soo confused that I could just be mucking up the water here with nothing helpful at all. Figured I would post and see if it might help. Thanks!!

Nope, what you are posting is what is expected and known to occur. You have two platinum gliders that are paired with a lue. Their offspring has been platinum and leucistic.

What is being said is that your leu joeys cannot be considered platinum hets and will not be able to reproduce a platinum joey if its paired with a leu het.

Also, that your glider Armani SLF that you said is a Leucistic, 100% Platinum het doesn't actually carry the platinum gene.

I'm not saying this is true, but what this thread and a thread on LGG is saying.

Thanks for responding Shelly. I never want to misrepresent my gliders or their joeys. It makes me crazy that I can't grasp this and that it's not more cut and dried.