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Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324115
02/02/13 01:04 PM
02/02/13 01:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict
Sherri  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
I don't think this thread has run its course. I'm sorry but I have not been online much the last few days due to family issues coming up.

Candy has NOT given any of us appropriate answers to serious questions. She just uses smoke shields to hide behind.

She is NOT a vet, nor an animal nutritionist. PLUS...she is not willing to spend the money in include testing to her vet OR an animal nutritionist to prove that her diet is safe.

So all in all she just changed the name of the diet, and up'd the quantity making it a larger batch and omitted the cereal. Thats basically all that changed? I'm sorry but I don't think that band aid is big enough to cover the wounds that this diet would inflict on some gliders.

And since there will never be any testing done by Candy on HER diet, then I see no reason why anyone on God's green earth should feed it.

But.....like we all state to everyone.....we each have to make our own choices in what we feel is right for our gliders.

I personally would love nothing more than to have the creator of this diet to actually do some testing. In this particular case I would LOVE to be proven wrong and for this diet to actually be safe.


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324123
02/02/13 01:37 PM
02/02/13 01:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
finnessa Offline OP
Glider Guardian
finnessa  Offline OP
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
Alden, no one has said the issues were a secret. That has never been the case here. The issue is there was no public acknowledgement of officially pulling the diet down, making changes, changing the name and then re-posting it publicly.

People are still feeding the original unmodified BLENDED diet and are having issues. They didn't know there were issues because Candy never chose to acknowledge them after the threads died. She didn't announce and explain changes.

I do have a question for you though Alden. Based on your first sentence and your last in your post, because you chose to feed a non commercial sold diet you felt there was no need for you or anyone else to demand some answers and some facts?

As for the rest of your post, I'll say this and only this as you went off topic. If someone is feeding a "FAKE" diet, they really should do some research being a "FAKE" diet is bound to cause issues and loss of life. I've personally never seen any "FAKE" diets outside of feeding nondiet food.


Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte] #1324125
02/02/13 01:44 PM
02/02/13 01:44 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
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nancy1202  Offline
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Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
I have no knowledge of the length of time the gliders had been fed my staple recipe. I was not informed about which other diets they had been fed previously and for what length of time. The issues described were seen in only homes with breeding gliders but no information on the history of those gliders was shared such as the age of the gliders, how many joeys they had and over what period of time.
This is just blatantly not true.

I was never presented with definitive information that caused me to believe that my staple recipe - and only my staple recipe - was the sole cause of the issues they had observed.
Yep, necropsy in my case. Even if your recipe contributed to the issues, I would think it would be a concern for you.

Is there a staple recipe or feeding plan for sugar gliders that has NEVER had an issue associated with it?

Do any of the feeding plans unconditionally guarantee that a glider will never have a health issue as long as they are fed that staple?
These statements in fact are part of the issue. This particular post is NOT about ANY OTHER DIETS but yours. It is asking about the changes you have made and any current testing you have done.

Finessa -Have you had personal experience with my feeding plan? Did you have a specific reason for bringing this up almost 2 years after the initial discussion. In retrospect, the timing of this thread is as interesting as the timing of the original discussion. Perhaps you just wanted to celebrate the anniversary.
I would certainly not presume to speak for Finnessa, but it appears that this was brought up because of the picture you posted on GG (that has already been explained), the constant input you feel compelled to make about Peggy's diets, the desire to see exactly which changes have been made to your diet, and the results of any testing on your gliders... or any gliders on your diet for that matter. I personally would never recommend your feeding plan, not solely due to my personal experience, but because of the lack of concern or accepting any responsibility whatsoever for the possibility that maybe, just maybe, it may not be as perfect in real life as it appears to be on paper. This choice was MY mistake years ago, MY decision at the time, and MY responsibility for the consequences.


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324126
02/02/13 01:49 PM
02/02/13 01:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
finnessa Offline OP
Glider Guardian
finnessa  Offline OP
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
:agreed: 100% with Nancy.


Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324155
02/02/13 04:15 PM
02/02/13 04:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
Since it appears the main concern of the original post by finnessa was that people new to sugar gliders may be misinformed when deciding on a new diet, and seeing as to how I am a new suggie mom, I wanted to put in my two cents from a newbie point of view.

Personally, I'm not familiar with any of the issue that arose as a result of Candy's diets. When I started doing research I did come across her diets, and I did read through all of the information presented on her website. I did feel uncomfortable about not being able to find more information and/or experiences people have had with these diets (on forums or otherwise), so I moved on to research something else.

I pride myself in conducting research to the fullest extent possible prior to making any decision, including buying a vacuum cleaner. When I do this, I like to see all the positives AND negatives of an item, so that I can make an informed decision, and it is MY decision to make. I am accountable for that decision and any consequences that arise from that decision because it is my responsibility to do proper research.

That being said, I believe that was the original intent of this post; to bring to light the negatives (or possible negatives) associated with this diet that had risen in the past and got buried from my understanding. Again, I'm new to all this, and yes I continue doing research on everything sugar glider for this same reason. Sometimes things that are important regarding how something affects them have gotten buried, and unless someone brings it to light again (or it's on a sticky) then I would have never found out. In my opinion, having the negative experiences people have had with this diet (and others for that matter) is just as good as having all the good ones because it allows me to weigh everything and make an informed decision.

Like I said, as a newbie, I didn't feel there was enough information on this diet, which is why I'm grateful it was brought up again because otherwise I would've been non-the-wiser. I don't feel that the questions have been addressed properly by Candy, but others were the ones to bring up the specific issues they were aware of, or experienced themselves. I'm less concerned with how the diet and issues were beaten to the ground in the past and how it may have turned into a personal attack, and I'm more concerned with the questions I have now that ironically have risen from this post. I'm not trying to attack anyone, I have no agenda, and I would like straight answers instead of defensive responses about this or any other diets. I have read through the entire post AND all of the links provided (which I don't think was helpful, since I had to sift through many comments to find an answer). In regards to Candy's diet:

1) "Blood testing for calcium and phosphorus levels is NOT a valid measure of the calcium adequacy in the diet. Bile Acid Testing is not a valid test for the nutritional content of the food eaten, it is specific for testing liver function. I will not risk putting my gliders under anesthesia for testing that is not useful."
- I would think this is something to be determined by someone with the proper credentials. I understand you are a nurse and have some knowledge of nutrition Candy, but a sugar glider-experienced veterinarian, an animal nutritionist, or scientific research would be more reliable sources for this information. I have found several scholarly papers regarding scientific research that has been conducted on sugar gliders and their dietary needs. Since you are not willing to subject your gliders to testing (which is your prerogative), have you used any scientific study (peer reviewed journals) results to help in the formulation of your diets?

2) "Are there specific things your vet looks at/for when seeing your gliders and overlooking the diet plan? Or is it just well check weights and fecals?"
- This question was not addressed, and I feel it's important. How actively involved is your veterinarian in the formulation of your diets?

3) "I asked them for input on the fruits and vegetables they routinely fed, so I could see they types and variety that had been offered along side the staple."
- Is this a diet that has vegetable and fruit limitations, such as are there any that should not be fed?

4) " I removed the baby cereal from the recipe and added additional Wombaroo High Protein Supplement in its place. This modification allowed a slight reduction of the calcium supplement while still keeping the ratio of the staple after preparation close to a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio."
- Is the increase of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement a safe increase?

5) "Protein, Carbohydrates, Fat, Fiber, Iron, Vitamins and Minerals are nutrients found in foods. They are not nutritionally specific to animals or humans."
- Animal physiology and metabolism is not the same in all species of mammals. Is your diet based on the thought that if it meets the nutritional needs of a human, it meets the nutritional need of the marsupial?

6) Have the necropsies that showed malnutrition been compared to the length of time the diet was fed?

7) "Instead, they switched their gliders to HPW and within a very short time - some less than a week - the issues all resolved."
- This could actually be a sign of causality. I'm not usually a fan of causality (A always leads to B), but if the only factor changed when issues presented was the diet, and there was a response to that single change, then it could indicate that the problem was addressed (in this case the diet). Do you not agree?

Last edited by Coqui; 02/02/13 04:57 PM.

Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324194
02/02/13 08:34 PM
02/02/13 08:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Coqui - You have chosen objective questions to ask. I hope this will summarize and clarify my thoughts for you.

1 - the particular tests that some are demanding be done on my gliders are NOT appropriate tests for the determination of the nutritional value of a gliders diet.

Blood calcium and phosphorus levels are controlled by a litany of metabolic processes in the body including parathyroid hormones, the absorption rate by the gut, the ability of the kidneys to excrete or retain calcium as needed and a constant movement of calcium and phosphorus in and out of bones to maintain a state of homeostasis that keeps the blood calcium and phosphorus at a relatively constant 2:1 ratio in the blood. Normal Blood Calcium & Phosphorus are not related to the amounts contained in the diet.

The testing of bile acids in the blood are specific for diagnosis of liver pathology. It measures the reabsorbtion of bile excreted by the gallbladder in response to the ingestion of food. The bile is absorbed by the gut into the blood and then is collected by the liver from the blood and again stored by the gallbladder. The results are dependent on the length of time since the last food consumption. Normal bile acid levels indicate that the liver is functioning properly - It does not measure anything specific to the quality of foods ingested.

The first time this test was suggested for a glider in 2009 was for evaluation of a liver tumor seen on x-ray. It was recommended as a LESS INVASIVE test than a surgical biopsy of the liver. It was not initially suggested as a measurement of the quality of the gliders diet.

Quote:
There are no routine tests for nutritional status.
http://www.arborcom.com/frame/lab1.htm


Bone density changes occur gradually over time and can be diagnosed by x-rays. X-rays of gliders are generally done of the entire body because of their size. In the absence of any symptoms, x-rays are not usually advised and always carry the potential for cellular damage. Routine x-rays of a glider, especially repeated ones have the potential to do more harm than good.

If I had these tests done on my gliders, and got "perfect results" I would only have gained the bragging rights that MY GLIDERS are healthy. The results are not definitive of a good or a bad diet. Chances are gliders fed pellets and apples would also have normal values on these particular tests. Would that be evidence that they are on a good diet?

2 - My gliders have routine check ups. I discussed my recipes with my vet and showed her the comparisons of the nutritional content of my recipes to the content of other widely used glider diets at the time. She agreed that the nutrient values in my staple recipes which fell mid-range between the high and low values, established by calculation of the values found in other diets, would meet my glider's needs. She said there was not a lot of specific information in her manuals on glider diet requirements.
I have reviewed a number of articles on glider nutrition. None of them gave a definitive list of specfic daily recommendations for amounts of nutrient gliders require daily. If you have found such a list I would be happy to review it and compare the nutrients provided by my staple recipes.

3- My staple recipes contain a moderate amount of calcium supplement - less half the amount of calcium called for in the BML recipe. The staples have close to a 2:1 ratio so there are no restrictions or specific requirements for the fruits and vegetables fed with the staple. I do encourage a wide variety of at least 7 different fruits and 7 different vegetables be fed over a week's time. I asked for information on the fruits and vegetables routinely used because at the time there were a lot of folks using various 'relish combinations' designed to have a 2:1 ratio for fruits and vegetables. Some of these fruit and vegetable recipes rely heavily on papaya and bok choi to the point that these two foods are over 50% of the total fruits and vegetables in the glider's overall feeding. It is not nutritionally sound to feed substantially more of one or two foods and only tiny amounts of others. It would have been useful at the time to know if the gliders feedings did indeed contain a wide variety or if they were being fed large amounts of one or two foods or if their vegetable 'variety' was actually mixed vegetables every night.

4- Yes the increase in the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement was a safe increase. It does not exceed the amount used in the Original HPW recipe.

Quote:
5- Is your diet based on the thought that if it meets the nutritional needs of a human, it meets the nutritional need of the marsupial?


No - it is based on the amounts of nutrients found in other widely used sugar glider staples and contains only ingredients commonly used in other to meet the needs of sugar gliders. I did not include any new products that had not already been used long term in existing glider staples.

The amounts of Protein, Carbohydrates, Fat, Fiber, Iron, in my staple recipes were based on the amounts contained in several widely used glider diets at the time. There is no list of recommended daily amounts. I needed to learn what the amounts were in diets already being used successfully. I researched the amounts of these nutrients in the ingredients used in existing glider staple recipes in order to determine the amounts that were already being widely fed to gliders. I established a range (high and low values) to see amounts currently being fed to gliders safely. I then chose ingredients already widely used in glider staple recipes to use in my own recipes with the goal of creating a staple that contained nutrients in amounts BETWEEN the highest amounts and lowest amounts provided by other staples.

None of the ingredients I included in my recipes were new to the feeding of gliders. I chose foods that were readily available and ones had already demonstrated their safety in glider staples. I chose a smaller per glider portion 2 tsp to provide the needed nutrients because I felt this would encourage greater consumption of the fruits and vegetables offered. (The mixture contains slightly less water than other staples so it is thicker but contains a similar amount of the solids that a 1 TBS portion of other staples contain)

Quote:
6) Have the necropsies that showed malnutrition been compared to the length the diet was fed?


This question would require answers from anyone that has lost a glider who was fed my staple. It would be interesting also to know the prior feeding history for these gliders prior to being fed my staple.

Quote:
7) "Instead, they switched their gliders to HPW and within a very short time - some less than a week - the issues all resolved."
- This could actually be a sign of causality. I'm not usually a fan of causality (A always leads to B), but if the only factor changed when issues presented was the diet, and there was a response to that single change, then it could indicate that the problem was addressed (in this case the diet). Do you not agree?


Yes, If the staple contained untested ingredients that gliders had not previously been commonly fed long term, or if the staple contained nutrients that were in amounts greatly outside of the acceptable range (based on the nutritional content of other staples in previous long term use) then I would have seen a possible association.

I believe there were other factors in the reporting of the initial concerns that had nothing to do with the use of my staple recipes. I had questions about the similarities of what the individuals were reporting and the time line of events.

My feeding plan had become popular very quickly and there were many posts from folks who found their gliders were no longer picky about eating fruits and vegetables along with the staple as had been a frequent complaint with other staples.

Many people were happy to be able to feed a wide variety of fruits and vegetables rather than struggling to feed a combination of fruits and vegetables that had the 2:1 ratio, that was extensively discussed at the time, to compliment the Original HPW diet or trying to get their gliders to eat mixed vegetables every day with BML.

The use of my staple had grown steadily between its introduction in the fall of 2009 and the Feb 2011. Many people had been feeding my staple for over a year when the concerns thread began.

Until the initial 'concerns thread' was started no one had contacted me with any specific problems or health issues that they associated with my staple.

The only individuals reporting problems were breeders and instead of approaching me individually the had all spoken to another individual to discuss their concerns. This individual had not used my staple. I wondered why she was the one they brought their issues to for discussion. It was the 3rd party that initiated the original discussion, similar to Finessa opening this thread with out any personal experience with my staple.

None of these breeders took their gliders to a vet. Even ones that had previously been feeding their gliders BML - switched not back to BML but to HPW.

Some of these breeders had previously posted how pleased they were with how their gliders were eating since starting on my staple. Others had used it for only a few months before reporting their concerns - to their friend, not to me.

The time line of events appears unusual to me. The number of positive reports over a years time, sudden issues after feeding for a short period of time, the rapid recovery on HPW and the way the issues were presented by a third party on THREE Glider forums simultaneously, made me feel the REAL ISSUE was not my glider staple recipe but an effort eliminate my staple as one of the choices glider owners have available to them.







Last edited by CandyOtte; 02/02/13 08:35 PM.

Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte] #1324203
02/02/13 09:06 PM
02/02/13 09:06 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
Quote:
6) Have the necropsies that showed malnutrition been compared to the length the diet was fed?


This question would require answers from anyone that has lost a glider who was fed my staple. It would be interesting also to know the prior feeding history for these gliders prior to being fed my staple.
I had a necropsy that showed malnutrition as the cause of death. Zoey was OOP 6-29-10. She was weaned onto the Blended diet. Isn't that interesting? BTW, this has been posted repeatedly, by me.


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324214
02/02/13 09:37 PM
02/02/13 09:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
Candy, I appreciate the answers. I agree with the testing of bile acids not being a necessary test for determining nutritional values being met. I also agree with the bone density test not necessarily being a part of this. However, I believe the moment for testing has passed. In other words, the tests (which I do not claim to know exactly which would've been necessary) would've been more effective had they been conducted prior to the diet change and then again after the new diet was introduced, so as to be able to determine any significant changes. When you say, "Blood calcium and phosphorus levels are controlled by a litany of metabolic processes in the body including parathyroid hormones, the absorption rate by the gut, the ability of the kidneys to excrete or retain calcium as needed and a constant movement of calcium and phosphorus in and out of bones to maintain a state of homeostasis that keeps the blood calcium and phosphorus at a relatively constant 2:1 ratio in the blood," I agree to a certain extent. These functions in sugar gliders are not the same as for other mammals, which is why I don't feel confident relying on that statement, unless it came from someone with the proper credentials (I'm not intending any offense, and I'm not saying you are not creditable, but lacking what I would consider to be adequate credentials for the subject matter). Having these functions studied at a molecular level, would certainly help in determining that.

Which brings me to the peer reviewed journals and scientific research conducted on sugar gliders and their dietary needs. As a Biology major, I have access to some of these, but not all are free. You can find some in JSTOR and others in CSIRO, but you have to pay to access them. However, I feel that if there has been scientific research that has been peer reviewed in regards to the dietary needs of sugar gliders, then they should be used as resources when formulating a sugar glider diet; more so when testing cannot be conducted.

From your answers I understand that your diet remained within the parameters of feeding quantities as diets that have been around, such as the BML. If I understand correctly, you're stating that because you are using the same ingredients in different, but acceptable quantities, then there should be no problems? I ask because I'm actually very particular about the minute details. Very, very small changes can have drastic results. For example, I'm deathly allergic to dark chocolate (my throat will completely close off), but I have no reaction to milk chocolate whatsoever.

And yes, the question about the necropsies was aimed mainly to those that experienced that.

Last edited by Coqui; 02/02/13 09:43 PM.

Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324215
02/02/13 09:41 PM
02/02/13 09:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
So Nancy, Zoey was never fed any other diet since OOP. When did she pass away, if you don't mind me asking? I'm really sorry for your loss.


Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: Coqui] #1324226
02/02/13 10:14 PM
02/02/13 10:14 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
You have asked some very good questions, Coqui, which can be very helpful to get some of the answers we are seeking. Actually, just tonight I was looking at the timeline during that period when I fed the Blended diet. I may have had a serious "Aha" moment which I am going to organize and put down on paper. There may be more to this story, in my personal case, due to that period of time when my nursing moms were being fed the Blended diet and my joeys were weaned onto Blended.

Zoey died in June 2011... she was just under 1 year OOP.



~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324229
02/02/13 10:24 PM
02/02/13 10:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
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C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
I'm so sorry Nancy. She was absolutely gorgeous! Please do let me know your thoughts once you organize them. It would be helpful.

Also, and I say this only because my husband just asked me today (in case someone wondered why I ask so many questions when I feed mine HPW Plus), "Why do you care about that diet if you've already picked one they like?" I continue to research diets, not only because time can reveal improvements and detriments, but also because (as I told him), you never know when you may need a diet change for whatever reason, so it's good to know your options.

I really appreciate you sharing your story Nancy. And Candy, again thank you for your responses.


Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324239
02/02/13 10:55 PM
02/02/13 10:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
san antonio,tx
M
mysweetgliders Offline
New Member
mysweetgliders  Offline
New Member
M

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
san antonio,tx
Finnessa, I contacted Candy about feeding her original diet and she urged me not to at that time. Is that not public enough? She can't go on the news saying her diet needs work. I believe you have already accomplished what you wanted. Everyone knows. It has been said time and again on glider gossip. And we are all free to use which ever diet we want. Now, that being said. You can't rightfully blame Candy for glider deaths than I can blame McDonalds for being chubby. She told me early last year she was reworking her diet. Question Finnessa, why is it only Candys diet you are on? No other diets have ever caused problems or questionable ingredients?


The Lord will never take you where the grace of God will not protect you.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324243
02/02/13 11:07 PM
02/02/13 11:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Quote:
Having these functions studied at a molecular level, would certainly help in determining that.


Agreed, but that is not something I can do.



I know of two articles by Ellen Dierenfeld PhD that studied sugar glider diets - neither was a study that offered any detailed conclusions as to what gliders should be fed. The conclusions of both papers was that more study was necessary.

The first article (Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine, Vol 15, No 3 ( July), 2006: pp 218-224) did note the calcium and iron were high in the 3 diets studied. The study was done with only 9 young male gliders. This was one reason I chose use less calcium supplement that the diets used in the study. It also influenced my recipe change to reduce the iron in my staple. I had not initially included the amounts of iron in the foods used in my staple. I did further research and gathered the necessary data to calculate the iron content and then modified my recipes.

I need to locate my copy of the second article, but it also did not give definition to the specific dietary needs of gliders.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324250
02/02/13 11:42 PM
02/02/13 11:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Nancy, here is part of your timeline.

Nancy posted on 2/12/11

Quote:
I switched from BML to Blended on 9-5-10. Some of my gliders are having issues, but others are thriving. I only have two breeding pair. One cannibalized last October and the second joey died two days later. The other mama had twins OOP 10-23-10. She only had enough milk for one joey, and I hand-fed the other. Some coats are looking crackly, and I recently bought a humidifier to see if it is due to dry winter heat. I have not yet noticed a difference. Out of 18 adult gliders, 7 have gained more than 10 grams, 4 have lost more than 10 grams and the rest are about at the same weights as before the diet switch. So, yeah, I guess I am having some issues.




Did you continue to feed Zoey the Blended diet between this post in February and her death in June?

I also noticed in reviewing your post that you stated that you used Calcium Citrate in place of the Now Brand Calcium Carbonate the recipe called for.

Did you adjust the dosage of the Calcium Citrate to 2 teaspoons in order to get the correct amount of calcium called for in the recipe? (the recipe called for 3/4 teaspoon of the Calcium Carbonate = 900 mg)


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324251
02/02/13 11:42 PM
02/02/13 11:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
finnessa Offline OP
Glider Guardian
finnessa  Offline OP
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
mysweetgliders, Private contact is not public. Also, every diet has had it's day of questioning. This diet is no exception. I think I'd rather owners be safe now rather than sorry later.

I not once said Candy was TO BLAME for anyone or thing dying. Awareness is key and people being aware of previous, potentially future problems is the right thing to do. I am just as entitled to ask questions as you/anyone is. Don't like it? Don't read it.


Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte] #1324254
02/02/13 11:59 PM
02/02/13 11:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
I have no knowledge of the length of time the gliders had been fed my staple recipe. I was not informed about which other diets they had been fed previously and for what length of time. The issues described were seen in only homes with breeding gliders but no information on the history of those gliders was shared such as the age of the gliders, how many joeys they had and over what period of time.


Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
Nancy, here is part of your timeline.

Nancy posted on 2/12/11

Quote:
I switched from BML to Blended on 9-5-10. Some of my gliders are having issues, but others are thriving. I only have two breeding pair. One cannibalized last October and the second joey died two days later. The other mama had twins OOP 10-23-10. She only had enough milk for one joey, and I hand-fed the other. Some coats are looking crackly, and I recently bought a humidifier to see if it is due to dry winter heat. I have not yet noticed a difference. Out of 18 adult gliders, 7 have gained more than 10 grams, 4 have lost more than 10 grams and the rest are about at the same weights as before the diet switch. So, yeah, I guess I am having some issues.


So you were actually given this information. Were you able to draw any conclusions from this?


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324256
02/03/13 12:15 AM
02/03/13 12:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Finnessa - I did post a public statement on all of the forums when I removed the recipes from my web page.

Is that not Public enough?

I also contacted a number of folks individually that I knew were using the feeding plan and asked them to choose an alternate diet while I gathered more information. Many said they were pleased with the feeding plan and would be continuing to use it.

Opening this thread, in light of NO ONE currently stating they have any issues with my feeding plan, is exactly why I did not make a huge FANFARE post when I put my feeding plan back on my personal web page a year ago.

It appears that someone wanted my feeding plan to be more widely known though - it is now on the top of the Glider Central diet list - I did not add it to the list.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324259
02/03/13 12:21 AM
02/03/13 12:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
Candy, That's great! Thank you for the citation. I need to get access to it, though. One of the ones I found on JSTOR was a lot older (80's), but it did cover a great deal regarding gliders on a honey-pollen diet. I gotta find the article again.

So, the article by Dr. Dierenfeld did have a significant influence on the making of you diet?

(Wow, I missed quite a bit while I was gone)

Last edited by Coqui; 02/03/13 12:26 AM.

Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte] #1324261
02/03/13 12:24 AM
02/03/13 12:24 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
I see you were able to find the information that was never provided.
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
I also noticed in reviewing your post that you stated that you used Calcium Citrate in place of the Now Brand Calcium Carbonate the recipe called for.

Did you adjust the dosage of the Calcium Citrate to 2 teaspoons in order to get the correct amount of calcium called for in the recipe? (the recipe called for 3/4 teaspoon of the Calcium Carbonate = 900 mg)
Your recipe called for either calcium carbonate OR calcium citrate. I purchased the Now brand calcium citrate and used the 2 tsp the diet called for.

Originally Posted By: CandyOtte

900 mg calcium is:
3/4 tsp Now brand Calcium Carbonate (1200 mg calcium per tsp)
OR
2 tsp Now brand Calcium Citrate (700 mg per 1.5 tsp)

If you choose another brand you will need to calculate the amount to use based on the mg calcium per tsp of that product.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids




~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324268
02/03/13 12:43 AM
02/03/13 12:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Quote:
So you were actually given this information. Were you able to draw any conclusions from this?


I was given partial information, and not from all of those that stated problems.

I was not able to draw conclusions based in incomplete information.

In this situation, I would not have jumped to the conclusion that the loss of OOP joeys when the parents had been fed my staple for less than two months, after having been fed BML for a significantly longer period of time, was SOLELY due my staple. In fact, the problems may have begun when the gliders were NOT eating the BML well - affecting the mother's health during the time immediately prior to the pregnancy and the joeys early weeks in pouch.

There are too many variables in this situation to come to a definitive conclusion.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324270
02/03/13 12:53 AM
02/03/13 12:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
More questions:

Nancy, some of your gliders were thriving, while others weren't. I'm assuming they were all under the same conditions (diet, environment, etc.). In regards to the breeding pairs it seems concerning. Here are my questions:

1) Was the diet adjusted for the mamas? I ask because I've read some people recommend adding more of certain things on particular diets, so I don't know how that would affect this diet.

2) From the 18 adults that are mentioned, how were they housed? More specifically, what was the distribution of those that gained weight vs those that lost it? I ask because I wonder if the ones that gained weight could have eaten the shares allotted to those that lost the weight; therefore, the weight gain being caused by overeating, and the weight loss due to not enough food available because the other glider(s) ate it.


Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324272
02/03/13 12:58 AM
02/03/13 12:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
I took the article into consideration when I was working on my recipes but I would not say it had a significant influence because there were no definitive conclusions. It indicated that diets used in the study were felt to have too much calcium supplement, but there was no determination on how much would be an appropriate amount.

The groups of gliders were small - 3 gliders on each diet. One glider was removed from the study due to self mutilation. The weight change was reported for the group not just individuals - One group had 2 gliders loose weight and the third gained more than the other two had lost so the group as a whole still had an average weight gain.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324274
02/03/13 01:03 AM
02/03/13 01:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
I see. Aside from the lack of definitive conclusions, were there other findings in addition to too much calcium on those 3 diets?


Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324278
02/03/13 01:13 AM
02/03/13 01:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Coqui - I sent you a PM about the articles since they are not directly related to this topic.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324281
02/03/13 01:17 AM
02/03/13 01:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
C
Coqui Offline
Joey Member
Coqui  Offline
Joey Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
Medford, OR
Thanks!


Jo

:wfb: Quill :wfb: Gamora
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324289
02/03/13 01:24 AM
02/03/13 01:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
finnessa Offline OP
Glider Guardian
finnessa  Offline OP
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
Candy you stated you took down the recipe to stop the attacks against you, not because there were issues with the diet. I do not see anything outside of the thread(s) of bickering that show it was removed. If it's on GG I wouldn't know. I am not a regular poster/reader there, only LGG and occasionally here. I do not see it in the thread on LGG though.


Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324295
02/03/13 01:44 AM
02/03/13 01:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
This is going to stop right now. The point of this thread was to discuss diet concerns. As of this posting, I have only seen THREE people (besides the diet creator) involved in this thread who have actually fed this diet for any amount of time at all.

Discussing whether/why/how/whatever the diet was pulled from a website has no bearing on safety concerns.

In case anyone is wondering this IS a warning.
Read here if you need a refresher;
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/31580/Diet_Bashing#Post31580

We have tried to give you all some latitude, but this is ridiculous.


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: Coqui] #1324319
02/03/13 09:42 AM
02/03/13 09:42 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
I would really like to see some current information on this diet, especially for breeding gliders and joeys. Are there "before" and "after" pics? Is there any data about OOP weights and joey growth rates? Where are all of those folks who were having no issues two years ago? Are they still feeding the diet, as modified? Have they noticed any changes?

Coqui, again you are asking good questions. I'll try to get some answers together for you in a PM to help this thread focus on what is happening NOW and not two or three years ago.

Candy, I wanted to make sure you saw where I answered your question about the type of calcium called for in your diet and the amount I used. I prepared and fed the diet exactly as written.


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324380
02/03/13 01:00 PM
02/03/13 01:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
In my opinion and observations - Candy published, and has resumed publishing a recipe. She does not require that you purchase a packaged meal with the purchase of a joey. She doesn't market a packaged meal plan in any form. She merely suggests a recipe which has worked for her and her gliders.

If you buy a cookbook, and a recipe makes you sick, the person who wrote the recipe is under no obligation to you of any kind. Especially if there are many others who use that recipe with no known problems.

There are other issues that have been found with other diets. None of those publish "disclaimers" on their web sites. When there are problems with other diets which are as significant as the ones with this diet, are there disclaimers? And by "significant" - I mean, of course, circumstantial and anecdotal.

Candy has ONE necropsy to work with here. One is not exactly a "study group" nor is it enough to draw broader conclusions. Although I'm sorry for Nancy's loss, the death of one glider from malnutrition could have been for any number of reasons, and is not a "smoking gun" leading to problems with Candy's diet.

Originally Posted By: Feather
I would like to know what credentials Candy has.

Does she have a degree in animal science? Animal nutrition?
If she doesn't have a veterinarian or animal nutritionist helping her with her diet, then she must hold a degree in animal nutrition.


Originally Posted By: Sherri
She is NOT a vet, nor an animal nutritionist. PLUS...she is not willing to spend the money in include testing to her vet OR an animal nutritionist to prove that her diet is safe.


Do the creators of other diets have these credentials? Do the creators of other diets spend their money for testing, and publish the results of those tests? Where are those results published?

The idea that this needs to be rehashed for "new members" is pretty ridiculous. There have been no new reports of problems with the diet. There have been countless threads of significance in the last two years. Are we going to now call up all those threads "for new members" to see what changes have been made in glider knowledge and care over the last two years?

I believe this is the main reason why many long-time glider owners encourage new owners to work with a mentor. So that the history and process of glider care information can be shared, since a great deal of it is lost to time. This discussion is one that, in my opinion, should have been "lost to time" as there are no new issues to warrant it being re-hashed.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa] #1324390
02/03/13 01:56 PM
02/03/13 01:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Just to clarify, the quoted questions from Feather and Sherri about my 'credentials' and qualifications for making an informed decision on having lab work done on my gliders and my experience and skills used evaluate the combination of foods used in my recipes were answered on the first page of this thread. My reply is copied here for those that have not read the entire thread.

Quote:
My education and experience is only an issue to those who are trying to discredit my development of recipes for my glider staple recipes. I have a BS Degree in Nursing from Duke University. My professional experience in nursing included a number of continuing education courses in nutrition - primarily for infants and toddlers. I worked for many years as a team member at program for young children with developmental developmental disabilities. Part of my role in this position was to evaluate the nutritional needs of children with various limitations in their feeding skills. For this population it was important to provide nutrient rich meals - often in small volume servings to help these children gain weight, increase muscle mass and promote their overall health. I worked with a number of physicians and therapists who referred parents to me for help in providing the nutrients these children needed. My interest in evaluating nutritional content of diets began many years before any one was keeping gliders as pets in the US.

Yes, I am guilty of breaking down diets on paper. I applied my diet evaluation skills and experience in planning feedings for children, to evaluating the glider feeding plans that were in use in 2008 when I got my first gliders.
Same evaluation skills - the portions were just much smaller.


Nancy - Thank you, I did see your response to the calcium citrate question confirming that you were using the correct amount. You did not however clarify if you continued to feed Zoey the Blended diet between Feb 2011 when the concerns were initially discussed and her death in June 2011 or if you changed her to another feeding plan. If a change was made, which feeding plan did you change to?

Quote:
I would really like to see some current information on this diet, especially for breeding gliders and joeys. Are there "before" and "after" pics? Is there any data about OOP weights and joey growth rates? Where are all of those folks who were having no issues two years ago? Are they still feeding the diet, as modified? Have they noticed any changes?


Nancy, many of the folks that have continued to use the GliderKids Feeding plan went 'underground' because posting it as their chosen staple in the forums brought out the critics. I also hope anyone currently using the GliderKids Feeding Plan will share their observations and experiences here and that if they do, they will not be bombarded with questions.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
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