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Hello, I’m new!! #1420966
08/05/19 10:55 PM
08/05/19 10:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 4
Colorado, USA
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SleepyPanda Offline OP
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Colorado, USA
Hi, I’m new to sugar gliders, GC, all of it. We started with one while keeping an eye out for a second to keep her company... within 2 days we found a bonded pair of in-tact female and male gliders. My original thought process was to put the girls together and get the male neutered so he could rejoin and make a colony... well when we picked the pair up we found out from the owner that the female was going to be a mommy and supposedly she is having twins! (I’m not sure how to tell it’s twins, but the pouch is moving and she’s definitely pregnant!!) With this realization I’m not sure how to go about things - if we should put our lone girl with the momma before the babies are OOP? Or wait until the babies are out, eyes are open and they can hold their own? Should we leave the momma and daddy in their own cage indefinitely...?? Our lone girl seems relatively happy on her own in her cage, she can see the other two and they chatter back and forth... I’m at a loss for now. Any advice is appreciated! ☺️

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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1420967
08/05/19 11:45 PM
08/05/19 11:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,413
Belleville, IL
Hutch Offline
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Hope that others with more experience will chime in soon, but for the sake of expedience, I'll give you my recommendation based on reading & other's experience:

If your loner is happy for now, leave her than way. Not so much for her sake, but for the new babes. When stressed, the mother is more likely to reject the tiny one(s) & I cannot see how swapping the mother into a new cage-mate situation wouldn't do that.

Moving to the currently bonded pair, the papa will help with the rearing of the young. If they were already a colony the extra female would probably assist too, but being new, she may not take on the 'auntie' role, so to speak. The parents need to remain together & the new female should remain separate for the sake of the youngin.

Wait for the tiny versions of gliders to be older, then work on introductions the traditional way. It'll be better for everyone in the long run.

PS: Don't forget to water the tiny ones, it helps them grow. Or it that plants? Umm... this might be why I don't have children yet. Hope someone who has delt with this answers you soon, but please hold off changing anything until they add their two cents.


- Hutch

:plat: Arthur :wfb: Gwynevere :bb: Merlin :grey: Morgana

The epic saga begins here!
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1420970
08/06/19 05:54 PM
08/06/19 05:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,658
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Online content
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Ladymagyver  Online Content
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Hi and :welcomegc:

I would leave the breeding pair together. Momma will stress without her mate.

Check with your vet to see what their neutering procedure is.


Watch the single glider for over grooming give him some extra attention. Do you have a glider safe wheel and toys for her?


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

Stewie :rtmo:
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1420971
08/06/19 10:50 PM
08/06/19 10:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 111
DFW, TX
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Xeno Offline
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I am less experienced but rejection usually occurs when the joeys are out of pouch. If you have a few weeks before the joeys are out you might risk an introduction if they are already talking. If it does not go swimmingly though I would keep them apart. The problem is if the loner goes into heat you may end up with more babies.

On second thought do not do that until he is neutered.

Good luck.


Dobby :grey: Elric :wfb: Arwen :plat: Eilonwy :leu:
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1420974
08/07/19 10:32 AM
08/07/19 10:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,834
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Online /gc/lgc
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:welcome: SleepyPanda


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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1420975
08/07/19 04:17 PM
08/07/19 04:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 176
indiana
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indiana
I don't do babies or breeding. but from what I have read I would leave the 2 new gliders separate until the
babies are born and slightly grown, or you could find a new home for them in 8 weeks OOP.
get the male neutered soon.
putting another glider in with dad and mom could only cause some stress, make things worse for the mom.

Once the babies are grown or gone, then I would start pouch swapping and everything needed for introductions.


John and Charlene
Gizmo :grey: / link :bb: / Sophie :wfb: / Riggs :grey: / scarface :grey: / gus :wfb:
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421000
08/09/19 11:36 PM
08/09/19 11:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 11
College Station, Texas, USA
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the_eidolon Offline
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College Station, Texas, USA
Hi there! I have been a glider owner since 2009, and began breeding in 2018. I will do my best to offer some helpful information and advice smile

First off: This is a tricky situation and as a new owner, it isn't your fault you did not know that going into it. This is an advanced glider owner issue and not something that would have likely come up when you did your glider research because it is a special circumstance you would have to specifically seek out and not general glider care info. It might not go well even if you do everything right, so if this goes badly, be willing to forgive yourself and learn from the experience. It is generally not recommended to rehome a female glider with joeys in pouch because that's very stressful for her and may cause her to pull her joeys and terminate. (Any major change in environment, even a deep-cleaning of the cage, can trigger this behavior.)

Second: Even after you get the male neutered, his mate could continue to have joeys for up to a year using stored sperm. This is one of our little critters' amazing powers. Be prepared for the possibility. Depending on how old he is, also know that neutering him may not remove his desire to engage in mating behavior. Males can leave what are sometimes very severe mating wounds. I was fortunate to have a male who gently mouthed (no bite, no teeth at all) at most, but I was very lucky.

Ok, so with that all of that out of the way...

I don't know how old all the respective gliders are, so I can only give you generic advisory information (relative ages can matter a lot for determining dominance, and the ability to successfully introduce the glider and have them accept it, and for the colony to have that glider introduced and accept it). Other people may have different views, this is based on my own experiences and research. There is no exact right answer to this situation because all gliders are different, which means my answer is only an answer, not THE answer.

This is not a matter of introducing the bonded pair into the first female's colony. They and their children are your core colony, and your lone girl would have to gain their acceptance and join their colony, not the other way around. While she was with you first and that will make everyone think she owns the place, she hasn't been with you for very long and she is outnumbered here (boy, this is a tricky one!). I, personally, would hold off until the joeys are not just OOP, but active, curious, and eager to play with the forbidden glider (so probably 10-12 weeks OOP). The reason for this is because the bonded pair may see this foreign female as a threat to their joeys, which could cause them to attack her; she might also see the other female or joeys as competition and want dominance, which could cause her to attack them. When that sensitive window passes, odds are your boy and your joeys will love the new girl. Your dominant female might not like her very much and will take some convincing. In my colony, it took Nor's first-born daughter, Xnand, just absolutely loving Bubbles for Nor to let Bubbles join, and she made it clear that Bubbles was not her equal and Xor was her man and only her man. Xor actually avoided socializing with Bubbles for a time in order to not upset Nor. Nor eventually allowed Bubbles closer and she now loves Bubbles, but Nor is still Queen. Fortunately, Bubbles is very VERY friendly and docile, and was gleefully accepting about essentially being Nor's servant. Like I said, all gliders are unique individuals.

I did this in a colony where I knew these gliders and their personalities very well, the colony leaders were much older, and the introductee was young, under six months old, making it easy for them to accept her and for her to accept their dominance. These gliders are new to you and eachother, which makes your situation more challenging. Take it slow. It's good that they have adjacent cages and can chat. Scent swap items between the cages to help them all get used to eachother. Eventually you can start allowing one cage out at a time to go examine the exterior of the cage (other people may say this is wrong, and they are not wrong, this is the technique I have used for introducing new gliders and I have been lucky to have it work out). This will not entirely prevent attack or injury, but it will allow you to test compatibility with lower risk. If it looks like the main colony might accept the lone girl, you can start giving her play dates with one glider at a time to make sure she doesn't want to attack anyone and no one wants to attack her. Make sure you're creating a situation where if the gliders form what is referred to as a deathball, that you can immediately split them up. A little fussing or nipping is normal, a serious attack is easy to detect because they ball up and try to kill eachother. Hopefully, if the early steps went well, this won't happen, but be prepared and know what even a single puncturing bite can lead to a cyst, abscess, or severe infection. What looks like a small injury from a fight can be serious. I hope that you have already found a vet who is experienced with gliders; if not, please do that. You will also need to find a night hospital or 24-hour hospital (unfortunately, because you have a nocturnal pet, your emergencies are going to happen more often at night, so you will end up taking your injured glider to the hospital and then transferring to your glider expert vet when they open).

Other people are going to have other advice and it is definitely worth reading and considering. Do a lot of research, ask a lot of people, and know that ultimately you have to be the judge of what's best for your colony and decide what your philosophy towards being a glider custodian is.

I hope other people on this thread give you other techniques and advice! Good luck! smile

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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421001
08/10/19 02:38 AM
08/10/19 02:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 111
DFW, TX
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Xeno Offline
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Xeno  Offline
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I had a pair of ad experiences with gliders getting on the exterior of the other glider’s cage. Elric and Doby did eventually forgive me and it may have helped with the eventual intro.

Here is my thread about integrating my two colonies and my many missteps and getting lucky when it probably should not have worked: http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1419395/1

My situation was less difficult though as both males were neutered and there were no joeys and they were all around the same age and all at least partially bonded to me. I am pretty sure I stressed them a lot and I think bonded with each other over driving me nuts. The previous comment is right based on what I read. There is a significant chance the joeys will not make it due to the transition. It is not your fault if it does but hoping for the best for you. Definitely watch for them allying up. Dobby attacked Eilonwy and they balled up. It is very distinctive. Luckily it turned out he was posturing and she was not injured. Either that or her retreat was well-timed. I would definitely wait for the gliders to be weaned before mom and dad go on play dates with your first girl......and dad needs neutering.

I can back up Eidolon on mating going on even though a boy is neutered. Thankfully Dobby and Elric both just use their teeth as an anchor when climbing onto the girls and do not bite hard and I have never seen a wound. I can usually tell when either Arwen or Eilonwy go into heat because there is chattering and a little crabbing in the pouch in the evening before the sun goes down. Both males mate with the girl in heat once they get up and Elric usually more then once. I will often let the girl in heat out in the evening and let her ride around on my shoulder or in my shirt to give her a break from Elric’s amorous advances if he is being too obnoxious. I am sad I missed a photo or video of Elric enthusiastically going at it with Arwen while she ignored him and ate salad. Not as good a lover as he seems to think he is. So much joke or meme potential lost.

Also, please get dad neutered soon. It usually mellows boys out and that should help with intros in addition to hopefully preventing another litter.


Dobby :grey: Elric :wfb: Arwen :plat: Eilonwy :leu:
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: Xeno] #1421002
08/10/19 05:48 AM
08/10/19 05:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 11
College Station, Texas, USA
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the_eidolon Offline
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the_eidolon  Offline
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@Xeno - I agree neutering needs to happen, but I do have concerns about rushing it. While they do recover quickly from that procedure, he is already in a stressful situation that would encourage self-mutilation, it would put stress on his mate because he'd be taken away and then separated from her (so she might pull her joeys and, to be blunt, eat them), and it would require OP to have a third segregation cage for him to go to while he heals. It also adds another thing to OP's plate.

It seems like the choices are variants on:
1) combine the colonies, let them destress, and then neuter (risks pulled joeys, and more joeys with lone female)
2) neuter now and put off combining the colonies until after the male has healed (risks pulled joeys)
3) wait for everyone to settle in, and for joeys to be 4 weeks OOP, neuter, let him heal, and then combine the colonies

Option 3 might be the safest in terms of all gliders surviving, joeys included. His partner will be nursing joeys and won't go into heat again right away, so odds of him mating with her during this time are relatively low. Even if he does continue to mate with his partner, she already has a store of his sperm that she can use for up to a year to impregnate herself. The harm is done, so waiting a little longer before putting him through a vet visit, surgery, and brief healing isolation probably isn't going to make a difference in terms of his reproduction with his mate. As long as the other female is away from him, waiting probably will not increase the number of joeys the pair would have produced anyway (which is likely going to be more than just this one pair because the female has her stash). If OP is going to pick the wait option, I would wait until the joeys are at least 4 weeks OOP (have their real fur) because that gives OP the least risk of losing the joeys (since the stressed mother might still eat them when they're newly OOP) and doesn't substantially change the consequences of the mating that has taken place or will take place in the meantime. Does that make sense? Does anyone have conflicting information about sperm storage and breeding patterns?

General note about neutering: Do not have the scrotum removed! It is connected by a thin thread so you would think that would be less traumatic, but it isn't. A small incision in the scrotum, removal of the testicles, and leaving the empty scrotum intact is the method that is least likely to result in self-mutilation post surgery. I had to learn this the hard way and lost Nor's brother, For, as a result.

Last edited by the_eidolon; 08/10/19 05:50 AM. Reason: screwed up order of events on point 3
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421012
08/10/19 10:11 PM
08/10/19 10:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 4
Colorado, USA
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SleepyPanda Offline OP
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Thank you to everyone for your input! Sorry for not replying sooner, it's been a crazy week and this is the first chance I've had to really read all of this without trying to scroll through all of it on my phone screen. I appreciate all the insight! At this point in time I'm planning on waiting for all parties to settle in, and once the joeys are OOP for 4+ weeks I will get the dad neutered and once he is healed and the joeys are a sufficient age I will work on introductions. I do know of a vet for exotics in Denver and this is where I plan to take him to get neutered and we have a 24 hour emergency vet for our other animals. In the mean time I just got my tent in the mail for tent time - my lone girl wasn't having it, she stuck her head out of her pouch to grab a blueberry but that was IT! I haven't done anything with mom/dad yet - I'm not sure if I should take both of them in there for tent time? Or if should just be one at a time? Any thoughts?

P.S. It's been nice to "meet" all of you!

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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421013
08/10/19 10:50 PM
08/10/19 10:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 4
Colorado, USA
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SleepyPanda Offline OP
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SleepyPanda  Offline OP
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Just for cute, here is our lone girl "Squirrel"

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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421014
08/10/19 10:50 PM
08/10/19 10:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,658
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Online content
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Ladymagyver  Online Content
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I would work with your single in tent time for now. Low light, and treats are best she's scared and not sure where the other gliders are. You could take a book in there and let her work up to coming out on her own. Just put her pouch in your lap and talk softly, or sing, or read to her softly.

If it were me, I would let Mom and Dad chill for awhile. You can spend time with them near their cage so they can get used to your presence. You can do the same, talk, sing, or read to them. Feed treats, slow movements, soft voice, and things like that.

I'm extra cautious, you can just observe and not push at this point.


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

Stewie :rtmo:
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421015
08/10/19 10:51 PM
08/10/19 10:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 4
Colorado, USA
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SleepyPanda Offline OP
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SleepyPanda  Offline OP
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Colorado, USA
And a photo of "Momma" and "Daddy" - we're still working on names for them....

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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421016
08/10/19 11:35 PM
08/10/19 11:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,413
Belleville, IL
Hutch Offline
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Cute smile


- Hutch

:plat: Arthur :wfb: Gwynevere :bb: Merlin :grey: Morgana

The epic saga begins here!
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Re: Hello, I’m new!! [Re: SleepyPanda] #1421017
08/11/19 12:35 AM
08/11/19 12:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 111
DFW, TX
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Xeno Offline
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Xeno  Offline
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DFW, TX
My first time in the tent all they would do was snag food and run back to the pouch. Definitely go with low light. I set up the glider room with red lights and they seem to either not see red or it does not bother them. They quickly got used to The tent. The second time they came out and ran around a little. Now they climb all over the tent interior and jump to my shoulders, arms, and sometimes my head. I do not use the tent much anymore. Now I just open the cage door and they climb on me, burrow under my shirt, and run around the room and play with their toys. The tent is still used but they usually climb on the outside. Sometimes I will take one or two for a ride on me when I prep their food or go work in the office. I use the tent when friends come over. My nieces will get in some times to play with them.

And yeah I would leave the parents for now. Probably not good to give them much novelty right now but definitely talk and probably get your scent in their sleeping areas. Treats through the bars would probably work too to get them to not fear you but I would not press if they avoid you.

Last edited by Xeno; 08/11/19 12:37 AM.

Dobby :grey: Elric :wfb: Arwen :plat: Eilonwy :leu:
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