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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16118
12/31/03 05:30 PM
12/31/03 05:30 PM

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well, the bones of birds and small reptiles like lizards are hollow, and very brittle and pinky mice are cartilidge, not fully formed, hardened bones...

That's about all I can answer there....lol. The rest an expert will have to help you with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16119
12/31/03 06:31 PM
12/31/03 06:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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From what I have seen of the teeth of the glider...they are jagged so to speak...like a cats.

Tissue can become irritated and inflamed when excesssive plack builds up between the teeth and gums...thus forming pockets for nasty bacteria to grow into an abecess. So, does not necessarily have to be bad teeth in order to get lumpy jay.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16120
12/31/03 07:02 PM
12/31/03 07:02 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Is their mouth structure almost identical to cats? Or are you just comparing the look of it to a cats? [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16121
01/01/04 10:06 PM
01/01/04 10:06 PM

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ok now im starting to get nervous. please read my post (its new) called "binca not well again" does it sound like this? there is no swelling at all in her face and gum area, i checked it thuroughly as did the vet... am i just be alarmist now?

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16122
01/02/04 03:40 AM
01/02/04 03:40 AM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Has the vet by chance checked inside her mouth to look at all of her teeth? To do so...I think he may have to put her to sleep to do a good visual inspection.

Let us know what your vet finds as it is possible she may have an oral or dental problem and thus would be unable to eat properly.

Last edited by Judie; 01/02/04 03:46 AM.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16123
01/02/04 03:44 AM
01/02/04 03:44 AM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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The mouth structure is not like cats...however...the side teeth along the upper and lower jaws appear to be made for shreading or shearing.

Last edited by Judie; 01/02/04 03:47 AM.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16124
01/02/04 04:09 AM
01/02/04 04:09 AM

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[:"CC6699"]Oh I see.... well, I am still doing more research on it, hopefully some of my previous questions will be answered or I can find out some more info! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16125
01/02/04 06:10 AM
01/02/04 06:10 AM

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My vet's theory is that there is probably some gum disease or loose teeth to begin with, and when given a pellet diet, then perhaps the glider will get lumpy jaw. She is not opposed to pellet diets in healthy gliders, altho I try desperately to get mine to eat BML.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16126
01/02/04 10:03 AM
01/02/04 10:03 AM

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Wow this is such a good debate.. thanks for bringing up this point jessie.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16127
01/02/04 01:33 PM
01/02/04 01:33 PM
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I agree. These are the kind of debates that we learn from. Debates are a good thing as long as we have a logical explanation or reason for everything we say and we don't tear each other down. We need to help educate each other and build each other up!
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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16128
01/03/04 05:50 PM
01/03/04 05:50 PM
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Charlie H Offline
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I am inclined to agree with Peggy's vet. Although we do not feed the pelleted foods for reasons other than Lumpy Jaw. There are too many people that feed cat food and pelleted food and so few cases of Lumpy Jaw on record that it makes me think that this vet had the logical explanition.
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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16129
01/03/04 05:54 PM
01/03/04 05:54 PM

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[:"CC6699"] I agree Charlie. There are so many gliders that eat pellet diets but almost no cases of lumpy jaw assiciated with them? That doesn't seem right to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I like what peggy's vet said also, which would explain why gliders on other diets, even BML, would get lumpy jaw. [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16130
01/04/04 05:15 PM
01/04/04 05:15 PM

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[:"CC6699"] Well I am bringing this to the top, one last time.

I am going to conclude that there isnt even close to enough proof to say that pelleted food causes lumpy jaw. This is most likely the case of one vet telling someone on the board that their diet caused lumpy jaw, and for a few years now, it has been spread by word of mouth, and escilated into something much much much more "dangerous" than it actually is.

I understand people don't believe pelleted food alone has the right nutrition for a glider, but I believe that using pelleted food in a well balanced diet is perfectly safe for a glider. I will no longer persuade pellete diet users to switch their diets in fear of lumpy jaw, which I have done in the past.

I hope this shed some new light onto the subject and proves that you can't believe everything you hear, sometimes you really do need the proof and question it for yourself. If I didn't open this thread, myself and many other glider owners might still believe lumpy jaw from pelleted diets is a high risk, when really, there is close to no risk at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16131
01/05/04 02:53 PM
01/05/04 02:53 PM

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I was just thinking of something. It may be a really long shot, so I hope no one takes it as fact. Like I said, it's just an idea for now.

I've posted a long time ago about how gliders seem to rinse their mouths in water dishes, leaving little sandy bits at the bottom of the dishes. Why do they do it? Do they get food stuck between their teeth and need water to swish it around to get it out? And do gliders drinking from water bottles exhibit the same behavior? Has anyone watched a glider drink from a water bottle and see if they spit out anything afterwards? And were the gliders that had lumpy jaw drinking their water from a dish or a bottle?

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16132
01/05/04 03:24 PM
01/05/04 03:24 PM

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Mine all drink from a bottle, and in the years I have had them, I have never seen them spit water out. Other than that, I don't know of any correlation between lumpy jaw and the type of water feeder available.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16133
01/16/04 07:49 AM
01/16/04 07:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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England, UK
DeXien Offline
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Not to keep bringing it up, but I have some further questions about this Lumpy Jaw issue.

I am not trying to bust anyone's bubbles, lol, but after I read this

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I figured that since so many of GC mods and members tell people pelleted food is bad because if causes Lumpy Jaw, that you might know where you heard it from or why you believe

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I was trying to figure out what the reason was as to why I supported this explanation. I'm not the sort to just say, "Hey, you said so, I believe it!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Check it out below.

Gliders are commonly believed to get lumpy jaw from hard pelleted foods. Why? I was trying to work it out, and then the answer became obvious. Saliva is our bacterial defense system when it comes to putting foods into our mouths, right? It destroys most of the bacteria from the food, and washes down what's left to the stomach so that the strong stomach acid can take care of it there.

It's the same with gliders, and all other animals. Saliva is a very powerful thing when it comes to getting rid of bacteria. Eating crickets and other insects are not an issue, because they do not have bodies which absorb the saliva. They are not porous. Cat food, however, is. It enters the mouth and the saliva is automatically drawn to it.. but just soaks in. The gliders suck their food, as we know.. and that would most likely create a vacuum in their mouths and push the sharper pieces of the hard foods into their soft mouth parts.. perhaps creating scratches. Also it would make sense that it would leave the glider's mouth dry and the saliva glands are suddenly open to bacterial infection.. as are the little wounds. I have no scientific proof here, merely observation and knowledge from a past science course. It happens in us humans as well.. if all our saliva went, we would all be down with some serious throat infections.

Although dry food might not ALWAYS be the cause of lumpy jaw, it would make sense that using dry foods would increase the chances of a glider catching an infection due to lack of saliva.

Perhaps gliders who take big bites of the hard food are more likely to get lumpy jaw than those who eat delicately, with small bits at a time... which is why some gliders get it, and some don't. It's could all be based on a glider's eating behaviour.. Small bits at a time wouldn't be a problem, because the amount of saliva in the mouth should be able to handle the little bits and moisten them. This would also make sense why it is recommended to soak hard foods in water or fruit juice before feeding them.. it's less work for the glider, and less likely to cause problems.
I do not believe that there have been any tests done on this before.. merely sad incidences where the glider has unfortunately caught an infection.. either airbourne or already in the food it is eating. Once the bacteria is in there and has started multiplying and getting into the places in a glider's mouth where the saliva can't get to, it's very difficult to get it out and the body struggling to battle it can result in pus and ick... which means once it bursts, you have uncontrolled infection. (Again, these are merely thoughts, not proof. It seems we're all spilling our thoughts, though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Lisa's explanation:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"Lumpy jaw is caused by bacteria normally found in the mouths of healthy animals. The bacteria can enter through wounds in the mouth, which can be caused by hard or coarse feed. Lumpy jaw may interfere with the animal's ability to eat; other than the swelling on the jaw, animals may appear healthy. This condition can ultimately lead to spreading of harmful bacteria and even death."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Whether they be wounds or an open saliva gland, the result would be the same. It seems lumpy jaw is commonly mistaken for a tooth abcess.. which would make sense, because the symptoms are similar. If Jessie's statement is true about the vet first looking at the teeth before looking for lumpy jaw.. it would seem that perhaps a tooth abcess is more common than lumpy jaw. Jessie, where did you get the info?

Also..

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"And Gliders have something like 40 some odd teeth. Why do they have so many teeth if they werent adapted to eat anything hard?"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Bonzai, what you said makes perfect sense, but what about when they rip apart those pinkies? It sure looks like they have flesh tearing abilities to me! *shivers*

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Lol. I think you answered your own question there. Gliders are also meat eaters.. but they don't eat the bones of their victims. They need those 40 odd tearing teeth to strip all the meat from the bones. Pinkies are a good alternative for us because their bones are still soft and moist, and we don't have the gross experience of the joys of picking up the bones you're likely to find scattered about if you get an adult mouse to feed. (which is dangerous and could result in injury anyway.)

Sorry for the long post. But the reasons above are why I personally believe hard foods cause Lumpy Jaw. Until it is scientifically researched and proved otherwise.. I'll be sticking to my beliefs and own knowledge/research.

Unfortunately, as wonderful as GC is.. it is not a vetinary clinic or a research station. To really pinpoint the problem would need the help of the GRF over a period of several years.

Please, if anyone has ANY information that would clash with mine, PLEASE post it. I am also very interested in the causes of Lumpy Jaw, and the more theories the better.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />


Saffron -- OOP 7th April 2003-> 8th May 2013. RIP, sweetheart.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16134
01/16/04 10:37 AM
01/16/04 10:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline
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Ok...I am not a numbers/scientific kind of person, so please don't bash me...but my thoughts all along have been, eating hard pelleted foods consistently...wouldn't that be working the salivary glands "overtime"? I dunno, maybe that's silly.

Karin


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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16135
01/16/04 10:51 AM
01/16/04 10:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,857
England, UK
DeXien Offline
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DeXien  Offline
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England, UK
Hmm.. I guess that is a possibility, but I'm not sure. Gliders (generally!) aren't used to eating dry foods.. so there would be no indication that evolution would have had enough time to create ability to instantly be able to know and produce the extra saliva to deal with these hard, and more importantly, DRY foods.

Also.. I think chewing is what stimulates the saliva glands. Don't quote me on it, it just seems correct. Which leads me to another possibility..

Thinking ... Resistance in food has got to be important. Try and imagine the amount of pressure or force required to bite through a piece of food that can be swallowed easily. Foods with low resistance require very little chewing because they tend to dissolve easily in the mouth (peaches, steamed veggies). Those with medium resistance are still relatively soft but require some chewing (apples, chicken). Foods that create the most resistance require strong, sustained chewing. (dried fruit, catfood)

All of the above have different amounts of moisture in. And as we know, gliders prefer sucking over chewing. If a glider does manage to get the hard food crunched up.. then it has loads of smaller pieces to deal with that are still very dry.. and whilst it's concentrating on eating the largest piece in it's mouth, the little crumbs and pieces are absorbing the extra fluids or possibly getting INTO the saliva glands and causing minor blockage. Does that make sense?

I guess we'd need to ask how much saliva the average glider produces on a no resistance piece of food, and how much is produced on hard foods..

I'm trying to imagine a glider's mouth and it's workings as I do this, lol. I am not a scientist, and I am not someone who works with researchers. But I do not think that we should disregard hard dry foods as a possible cause for lumpy jaw.


Saffron -- OOP 7th April 2003-> 8th May 2013. RIP, sweetheart.
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