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Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #296475
05/24/07 02:47 PM
05/24/07 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
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Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
It's the GLOBE grapes in the U.S that shouldn't be fed to gliders.

All fruits and vegetables are sprayed. That's why they look so pretty in the stores and aren't full of worms and bugs. The only way we can prevent feeding something like that to our babies is to grow it ourselves, but then we still have to worry about things like soil contamination, bird, other animal urine and feces, acid rain etc.

There seems to be no way around this. Other than all humans and animals stop eating, then we all die anyway.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: SugarBlossoms] #296533
05/24/07 03:44 PM
05/24/07 03:44 PM

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I started a garden in my back yard and bought a bunch of organic seeds earlier this year... I have to say it's more convenient and alot more fun to just go out to the back yard and pick dinner. Lol. smile

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #296580
05/24/07 04:22 PM
05/24/07 04:22 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
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Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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I guess just like the cse with Jorg. it is a matter of find out EXACTLY what the cause is, and addressing those item, Just as Laura knows, the problem in the food could have come from anyWHERE, not the same with animals that are fed varied diets, when it jusps out at you, and lets say you never fed grapes to your gliders, fed them 5, then they die 24 hours later.. you take those grapes down, have them tested (it was a newly introduced food,) then you also must take all the other food down that also was offered, to have it tested as well..

it is very common to blame a newly introduced food, but most often when tested it isn't the new food at all, but something wrong with the standard.

The globe grapes however.. those are the very big ones. have had more of an issue with the gliders than regular grapes, I don't know the specifics, of the globe grapes, but as for regular grapes, gliders dying all the time, just because the common foods are fed, how do we know it was the grapes? could it be aflatoxin? after all there is corn which is a harbor for the fungus, (aspergillus)) and could it be peanuts, could it be the peas? or maybe the apples? maybe it is an ingredient of the food, could it be bacterial? Could it be genetics? Maybe in these cases, maybe the dog food itself. So many possibilities

I have to say with the thousands and thousands of gliders out here, sine the early 90's, eating grapes, the chances of it being "grapes" as a general rule is very slim.. I would be much more interested in what they have found that is dangerous, if it is ddt, then give us info as to where the grapes came from, so we can avoid that, if it is from some other pesticide, then let us know that..

This really is a broad step on a common item. please can you be a tad bit more specific for us?

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: jacknsally] #296597
05/24/07 04:34 PM
05/24/07 04:34 PM
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well you know I may be a little old fashioned about all the controversy but for instance we are not to feed chocolate to our animals because it is toxic. But it isnt toxic to us. Therefore I can see where dogs may have a problem with grapes. Mainly because dogs are conivours by nature not herbivours. Therefore alot of fruit and other foods is not good for them. You need to look at the species that are getting into trouble and figure this out if you fed your horse meat for instance they would get sick their body make up is not designed to handle meat. Also I am a little skeptical about the whole organic thing. I think a bunch of farmers are calling their food organic and laughing all the way to the bank. Organic is just a way to get consumers to pay more for the same food. By the way I have seen this so its not just speculation. If people really wanted natural organic foods they would stop processing and homogonizing (like with milk) and drink or eat it raw. The only way I trust it being truely organic is if I grow it myself and dont use fertilizer or pestisides then it organic.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Bourbon] #296617
05/24/07 04:49 PM
05/24/07 04:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,874
Eastern NC
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As someone mentioned, the difference in kidney size of a human and glider is quite a stretch. Also, we humans eat chocolate, onion, and garlic but should never give them to our suggies (or many other animals). Personally, I am leaning toward grapes being something for my furry babies to avoid, but won't remove them from my diet.
The DDT factor doesn't bother me; scientist J. Gordon Edwards was a supporter of DDT after it was used to save over 5,000 lives in a 1944 epidemic [in Italy]. Appalled by Rachel Carson's claims, he began consuming DDT (by mouth) in shocking quantities. He died in 2004 at the age of 84 from a heart attack while mountain climbing.


~ I miss my Alev, Nese & Levent ~
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: melek007] #296642
05/24/07 05:20 PM
05/24/07 05:20 PM

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*Idea* idea

Based on the above post and all the problems will all of our foods, maybe we should all scrap the idea of food as we know it and just feed ourselves and our gliders DDT...LOL! Uuummm...if anyone is considering the potential edible merits of DDT versus grapes, I'd still go with grapes as the lesser of two evils...LOL! laugh

(Melek007..interesting study there, must've been an odd bird to eat DDT to the ripe old age of 84, but I hope it does not offend your sensibilities that I'm sticking with the Rachel Carson camp, personally. Even water can be overdosed on if too much at once...even consumption-based products like alcohol and such cause poisoning over time, and good fer 'ya stuff can cause trouble too, as we've seen with my kidneystones and healthy greens...I'd love to see the study though...that's the nerd in me crying out for more). LOL agree laugh


Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: SugarBlossoms] #296657
05/24/07 05:53 PM
05/24/07 05:53 PM

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I do not nor have I ever fed my gliders Red Globe grapes. I have only fed all of my gliders red seedless. However, when I purchase them I bring them home and wash them real good and let them sit in the colander to drain, then put them in a tupperware bowl after I cut them in half.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #296679
05/24/07 06:34 PM
05/24/07 06:34 PM
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Hernando, MS - USA
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There have been post in the past about the dangers of feeding grapes. I can't remember all of the details, but if memory serves me right the bad thing about grapes for animals was the peel - something about the tannins in it. That might account for why a raisen (dried grape) is more harmful because after it is dried it is basically nothing but dried grape peel with very little left inside and the peel would be eaten. Now a glider (as a rule) will not eat the peel of a fresh grape, they just eat the pulp. A dog or larger animal would consume the grape peel and all. If the tannins are the culprit that might account for why grapes consumed in any quantity would be a problem for dogs or larger animals.





Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Anmaw] #296894
05/24/07 09:30 PM
05/24/07 09:30 PM

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I've fed mine red seedless for 5yrs now. The do not eat the skins, and as far as raisins they eat the inside of it and leave a shell, it looks like little poobles in the bottom of the bowl, lol. I have bought sugar beet sticks from exotic nutrition and have bought many bowls and hangers for them as well. However, i've never purchased anything as far as meals, I tend to make my own BML mixture, do not feed them cat food, however, I used to when they were younger.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #297173
05/25/07 04:11 AM
05/25/07 04:11 AM

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Originally Posted By: Gossamer
Thank you for the update Moorie. Now it makes sense.

I'm not going to feed something to my gliders that has the potential of causing death - whether it has to be a large quantity or not. If ten grapes cause death - then feeding one is okay? That's not logical to me. It's not heart medicine - there are plenty of other things you can feed your gliders. And as another said - the grape controversy is not new, Moorie didn't make it up.


Absolutely ... thanks Gossamer! If 10 grapes are toxic then if you feed 10 grapes over 10 weeks then the toxins are STILL going to build up in the system, sure because it's a 'trickle feed' it'll be slower because the body stands more chance of breaking down whatever toxin and excreting it from the system, BUT toxins are STILL going to build up, or maybe it's just SOME grapes that contain something bad ... the fact is we just don't know.

I'm NOT the sort of person to make mountains out of mole hills, personally I can't stand the drama on some forums! But I just don't think it's worth it, my suggies lives are far more important to me than feeding grapes! I'd rather have them alive and well.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #297200
05/25/07 08:35 AM
05/25/07 08:35 AM

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Ever since I read the article about grapes from Suncoast...I do not feed them to my boys. I use the BML diet, and avoid the corn and grapes. I have been meaning to make a post as to why diets contradict each other - BML using these two ingredients, where as Suncoast avoids them?

Anyway, it is my opinion, that the BML is great for my boys, but using corn and grapes simply is not worth the risk. So many people feed them and have no problems, where as in other cases a glider can die unexpectedly and they not know why.
Just because it seems to not affect some of our gliders (that we can tell right now), does not mean that it is safe. I know this is all a debate - not a lot of actual evidence suggesting so, but the risk far out weighs the benefit. As was said above, there are many, many other things we can give out gliders that are much healthier for them.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #297243
05/25/07 09:43 AM
05/25/07 09:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kris

Just because it seems to not affect some of our gliders (that we can tell right now), does not mean that it is safe. I know this is all a debate - not a lot of actual evidence suggesting so, but the risk far out weighs the benefit. As was said above, there are many, many other things we can give out gliders that are much healthier for them.


Well said.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #297265
05/25/07 10:03 AM
05/25/07 10:03 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,689
most beautiful place on earth
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I have said on many occasions this pattern of thinking, just not on here roflmao

1. People die of cancer.
2. People eat broccoli.
3. People who eat broccoli will die of cancer.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gliderbuff] #297401
05/25/07 11:59 AM
05/25/07 11:59 AM

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This is insane!

Cancer such as lung cancer has been directly linked to smoking - true? Sure non smokers die from lung cancer too, but that doesn't mean the first statement isn't correct!! This is a topic that has been active in the glider community for years, and now, healthy skunks eat grapes and die a few hours later displaying the same symptoms seen in dogs since 1989!

Around 1989, the APCC began noticing a trend in dogs who had eaten grapes or raisins: Nearly all developed acute renal (kidney) failure. As more cases were reported, enough data was generated in the database to help veterinarians identify and treat dogs at risk. In all of the cases, the ingredients for potential acute renal failure were the same. Whether the ingested grapes were purchased fresh from grocery stores or grown in private yards didn't seem to matter, nor did the brand eaten. And the ingested amounts varied considerably, from over a pound of grapes to as little as a single serving of raisins. The cases weren't from any specific region, but instead came from across the United States.
The database showed that dogs who ate the grapes and raisins typically vomited within a few hours of ingestion. Most of the time, partially digested grapes and raisins could be seen in the vomit, fecal material, or both. At this point, some dogs would stop eating (anorexia), and develop diarrhea. The dogs often became quiet and lethargic, and showed signs of abdominal pain. These clinical signs lasted for several days -- sometimes even weeks

When medical care was sought, blood chemistry panels showed consistent patterns. Hypercalcemia (elevated blood calcium levels) was frequently present, as well as elevated levels of blood urea nitrogen, creatinine and phosphorous (substances that reflect kidney function). These chemistries began to increase anywhere from 24 hours to several days after the dogs ate the fruit. As the kidney damage developed, the dogs would produce little urine. When they could no longer produce urine, death occurred. In some cases, dogs who received timely veterinary care still had to be euthanized.
Why did the fruit cause the dogs to become ill? No one knows. Suspect grapes and raisins have been screened for various pesticides, heavy metals (such as zinc or lead), and mycotoxins (fungal contaminants) and so far, all results have come back negative. In the cases where the grapes were grown in private yards, owners confirmed that no insecticides, fertilizers or antifungals had been used on the fruit.

"Raisin" the Success RateEven though the exact cause of the renal failure is unknown, dogs who ingest grapes and raisins can be treated successfully to prevent its development. The first line of defense is decontamination. Inducing vomiting in recent ingestions and administering activated charcoal helps prevent absorption of potential toxins. Dogs should be hospitalized and placed on intravenous fluids for a minimum of 48 hours. A veterinarian should monitor blood chemistry daily for at least three days following the ingestion. If all blood work is normal after three days, it's unlikely that kidney failure will occur. If a dog shows evidence of renal failure, fluids must be continued, and other medications should be used to stimulate urine production. Some dogs may need peritoneal dialysis, a process where the peritoneum (the membranes surrounding the abdominal organs) is used to filter waste products that are normally filtered by the kidney.
Thanks in part to the AnTox database, grape or raisin ingestion can be easily identified and treated. Today, a dog can make a complete recovery from this potentially fatal condition.

also

A less known toxin for pets is raisins and grapes. The ASPCA Poison Control Center indicates that raisins and grapes may be toxic to some dogs. The ASPCA Poison Control Center managed 140 cases of raisin or grape toxicity in the last year. Over 50 of these dogs developed symptoms ranging from vomiting to kidney failure, and 7 of these dogs died. The toxic principal causing these symptoms has yet to be identified. One specific case involved a 2 year old Australian shepherd that ingested 1 cup of raisins. The dog developed acute renal failure a few days later and died.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1833

also

Grapes/Raisins
Essentially unheard of prior to 2001, raisin and grape toxicity has become increasingly recognized as a real danger to pets. Although previously deemed as harmless treats, research has determined grapes and raisins have been linked to kidney failure in both dogs and cats. The toxic substance in grapes and raisins is unknown, as is the amount required to produce toxicity. Since 1989, the ASPCA has documented many cases of raisin and grape toxicity, and more recently (2001) it has been officially recognized as a toxin to animals. Studies of documented cases show estimated amounts of grapes or raisins eaten ranged from nine ounces to two pounds, with symptoms occurring within approximately 6 hours of ingestion. Symptoms include vomiting, loss of appetite, sluggishness, and abdominal pain. Testing found elevated blood calcium levels, as well as elevated levels of blood urea nitrogen, creatinine and phosphorous – all substances that reflect kidney function. The result is the development of acute renal (kidney) failure, within as little as 3 days of ingestion.


http://www.bdnhumanesociety.com/householddangers.htm

Also

http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/grapes.pdf?docID=189

To me, as I said before, my suggies lives are too precious, to me it's just not worth the risk.

Last edited by moorie999; 05/25/07 12:06 PM.
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #297463
05/25/07 01:03 PM
05/25/07 01:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Posts: 1,667
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Moorie - would you like a wall to bang your head upon? shakehead



Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #297764
05/25/07 04:57 PM
05/25/07 04:57 PM

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Gossamer, LOL! laugh Moorie, if you didn't live so far away, I'd offer you my wall...I mean, shoulder... wink Isn't there a drink called a "Harvey Wallbanger" or something? Maybe that would do the trick? LOL...

Listen, everyone, it's perfectly acceptable for each of us to have different thoughts and opinions...this is the flavorful spice of life and makes the world fun, colorful, and diverse. It does not matter whether we all think the same thing about grapes or not: we don't all have the same identical cage set up, we don't all feed the same diet, and we don't all live like clones of one another in glider or other aspects of life.

BUT, there is a common ground here that we all voluntarily share when we join GC: we are all presumably here "for the good of the glider." Look at it this way if you wish:

There is NO evidence that NOT feeding grapes is harmful to your glider. But there is anecdotal evidence that grapes MAY harm your glider. So why even risk it?

Grapes do not offer a single benefit or nutrient we know of for gliders that cannot be sourced from something else easily instead. So why insist on grapes still? Why not just take the "better safe than sorry" road, even if we later discover grapes weren't it, will have done no harm to eliminate them from the diet. You can easily reintroduce them later. But if they ARE later scientifically linked, won't you regret that if your glider dies and we find out AFTER the fact grapes could have played a role? Why risk it? It's not hard to just feed another fruit!

vets and animal welfare organizations felt strongly enough about the POTENTIAL causal link in their database between grapes and dog deaths that they published an alert. It's not Moorie who did this, it's the vet database across the US that prompted the articles and concern. And Moorie, bad, bad girl that she is, simply posted a case where this was confirmed by HER FRIEND'S vet. The animals consumed a large quantity of grapes and DIED. In that case, it WAS a causal link. I don't assume anything of anyone here on this thread or list, but I will say that I personally do NOT feel so confident in my personal *opinion* that I would be willing to weigh my glider's health against a database of vet concern and the ASPCA's published alert. That's JUST me.

It's a mystery I don't care to solve with one of my own pet deaths, and I don't want yours to be harmed either.

We have no proof that it's JUST the grapes doing it...but we have NO proof that it ISN'T, either. Trinket and Spark won't be the next experiment here, I can tell you that. I'm not willing to gamble with it. I fully understand it is just that...a gamble, not a proven scenario. But I'm not willing to do it. If you are, fine, but there's NOTHING wrong with Moorie and others of us choosing not to. It's not paranoid, it's responsible.

If there was a recall on a baby toy, and it stated "SOME of the manufactured toys MAY have been shipped with a POTENTIALLY toxic ingredient in the plastic that can harm SOME babies," would you just say, "eh, my kid's been playing with it for a year and she's fine so I'm not ditching it?" Or would you say, "I'm not taking the chance. Maybe it's safe, maybe it's not, but why risk it?"

I may just be naive to this or out of the loop on something, but I don't understand why judgment has to be passed over this...we can get mad at someone if they are doing something blatant to HARM their glider, but not feeding grapes? Why would it bother anyone if someone else chooses not to feed their glider grapes based on this? Why would you WANT to feel the weight or responsibility of convincing someone grapes are fine when we just don't know? Why not just say, "we just don't know" and leave it at that, instead of make a case for something that may or may not lead someone else to act on YOUR opinion in a way that potential COULD harm their glider? We know that anyone who reads Moorie's post and does NOT feed grapes isn't in any way compromising their glider's health or safety MORE. But feeding them MIGHT.
Nobody is forcing you not to feed grapes. But without the information (which may be old to some who have seen it before, while new members join here everyday and it may be a totally new topic to THEM), how can you make an informed choice if you don't know about it? YOUR glider might not be affected at all by grapes. But how would you feel if you sited that as your main argument for "grapes are fine," and then someone else's glider died because of your recommendation? As I said earlier, some people aren't affected by foods that lead to kidneystones in others. There's simply no scientific evidence that helps us know whether my glider or yours will or will not be affected by grapes. So do with that what you will.

vets and the ASPCA notice a trend, a pattern, a repetative observation. SO much of current medical science begins this way...often research studies yield new information nobody was looking for when data is collected and compared. I appreciate the vet database information being made public: why do you think they offered this to the public? Do you think vets stand to benefit by halting the grape industry? Or that the ASPCA has a vendetta against grapes and has taken them on to teach them a lesson? LOL These vets are trying to protect our beloved animals by saying honestly and openly, "our database found a pattern that GRAPES were found in the vomit which means GRAPES were commonly consumed in each of these renal failure cases." Surely, some dogs have renal failure for totally seperate reasons that have NOTHING to do with grapes, just like some people have cancer or back pain or strokes for various reasons. But if grapes is ONE of the potential reasons, why ignore it?

Moorie didn't come here and start bashing people who feed grapes...she took her sadness regarding a friend's loss and illustrated a story of a close friend of hers who's vet stated that two animals died due to heavy grape consumption.

I'm honestly baffled by the reactions here that are so cavalier about this specific situation and all it entails. It just isn't that hard to empathize with and say, "well, if grapes WERE the cause of death in these as confirmed by the vet, and many other documented cases were confirmed by other vets, do I NEED to know what it is in the grapes before I quit feeding them to MY pets?" Not one person said "I'm sorry for your friend's loss." ???

Grapes are off our animal menus, Moorie, and I'm so sorry your friends lost their pets. I appreciate your post, and I know there are other people here too who share your interest in early findings of science put forth on this as it evolves from studies, data, and research.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #297836
05/25/07 06:51 PM
05/25/07 06:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 63
Devon
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Devon
Ok Moorie kindly told me she had posted this on some american forums and kept my name discreet until i felt ready myself. im not ready yet but am shocked at some of the responses here, she is not passing on chinese whispers or making anything up, and i have not had the heart to get the documents and test results from my vet yet for god sake i have not even got the ashes back from their cremation.

IT WAS MY SKUNKS they died 2 days ago i grieve i hurt i feel so so guilty, its american skunk sites i went to to get my diet to be told grapes are safe for skunks (they even recommend putting vines in the garden if you want to attact them), and then to find out they are not, we didnt even link this to grapes at first we linked it to high protein levels even though my protein levels never go above 5% as thats the main cause of renal failure in skunks (or so was thought) but for both my skunks to die on the same day within a few hours after eating the grapes it was too much of a conicidence. our beloved Mary Jane showed the first signs, she started shaking then lost the ability to walk properly on her back legs and then she went limp, emergency trip to our vet ( who is very experienced with exotics and is the vet for our two local zoos) then a few hours later our male dropped in temp by a few degrees and started to shake, straight to the vet for him and we thought we had caught whatever it was early but alas no we were very very wrong. thats when we SUSPECTED the link to grapes and worked on that basis with the information our vet knew about dogs and grapes, our vet worked through that night and through the next day he stayed on after his shift had finished to save our little bundles of fluff, we got the first call at 8am to tell us stompy the male had died of renal failure we were praying to any god out there our female would pull through but i got another call that afternoon with the rest of the bad news. in the mean time tests had been taken by another vet bloods stools had been tested, and grapes were the cause.We can now add skunks to the list to the dangers of grapes and i hope to god none of you have to be the first case if it turns out they are dangerous for glider its somethign i hope you never have to go through,

you dont have to believe me you can call me a liar i dont care but dont misjudge Moories intentions with posting this, she was thinking of all of you and it gets thrown in her face.


www.southwest-sugargliders.co.uk

For all your UK and EU sugar glider needs!
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: eccles] #297838
05/25/07 06:55 PM
05/25/07 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 63
Devon
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Devon
Oh and just for the record they were red unseeded grapes


www.southwest-sugargliders.co.uk

For all your UK and EU sugar glider needs!
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: eccles] #297847
05/25/07 07:00 PM
05/25/07 07:00 PM

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Eccles, HUGS to you. hug2

I am so sorry for your loss. I am also praying that the loss of your sweet skunk babies, and the painful detail you offer to describe their deaths, will hit home with at least some of the people here, and help them to make a choice that honors your pet's lives and means they did NOT die in vain.

I do not want to read any stories of any gliders dying due to renal failure from too much grape consumption. The information is out there. Eccless and many dog owners have shared their personal stories.

I repeat, grapes are OFF our animal menu. We'll just never know, Eccles...maybe animal lives will be saved from this!

I am sending love and healing to you. Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. Maybe the more personal narrative of this will help stir compassion and empathy...and a hearty dose of well earned consideration...with this whole thread. We know for a fact we've got these two pet losses attributed to grapes. I hate to think that maybe when the count gets higher and MORE personal and hits home, more people will THEN consider the very easy, very harmless removal of grapes from their pet's diets?

I know people keep saying "all foods," but it seems to me this is pretty specific research, and a pretty specific cause of death from this vet. Eccles, again, hugs.

Love to you,
Jen/PocketFaeries

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #297855
05/25/07 07:07 PM
05/25/07 07:07 PM
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Devon
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Thankyou Jen I'm a right mess tbh and it has taken lot of support from friends and they have all been very patient with me while i add little bits of information i remember from this nightmare, when this was first brought to the attention of the UK forums i fell to bits and could not explain myself at all, i was lucky a young lady i know that keeps skunks herself was able to giude me and ask questions without sending me to tears again, she then forwarded as much information as she could piece together from my and my other halfs rambling so some sort of actual factual information could be passed onto others. i am still babbling as im sure everyone can see and i still cant explain myself properly so im sorry if this doesnt make sense


www.southwest-sugargliders.co.uk

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Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: eccles] #297881
05/25/07 07:36 PM
05/25/07 07:36 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,689
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I'm sorry, Morrie.

As a glider community, we all need to understand that certain information is not intended to hurt or even to condescend. For my part in being short-sighted I apologize. crazy

Thanks for trying to help "for the good of the glider" .

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gliderbuff] #297889
05/25/07 07:50 PM
05/25/07 07:50 PM

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To be honest, I won't be feeding grapes anytime soon regardless of this controversy- they have a 2 to 1 ph:ca ratio, and just aren't worth the worry...

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #298435
05/26/07 03:38 PM
05/26/07 03:38 PM
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Devon
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And thankyou to Moorie for her continual support and to Jen for the well wishes for me and my partner, it means alot believe me


www.southwest-sugargliders.co.uk

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Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: eccles] #298443
05/26/07 04:01 PM
05/26/07 04:01 PM

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i don't know about all of this i did read it in suncoast but like most of the people that have posted before me the only way we can be sure that they wont die is by not feeding them anything. i have feed coco grapes sence he was 8 oop and he loves them more than he loves his dry food. its not like grapes are candy i thought they were suppose to be good for them.so it would be like not eating fish because of tape worms or beef because of mad cow even though they say we cant get it from eating beef. no food is really safe.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #298450
05/26/07 04:08 PM
05/26/07 04:08 PM
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Long Island, NY
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Could someone please tell me when feeding your gliders grapes has become mandatory? That "well, we shouldn't feed them anything then" argument is ridiculous. I could list a hundered items that have NEVER been linked to an animals death. This one is walking up to you and slapping you in the face and you still ignore it. When has common sense been breed out of the human species? I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but it is so frustrating when people don't do what's right for their pets.

Eccles - I am sorry sorry for the lose of your skunks. I've never owned skunks, but have read what sweet and intelligent pets they are. If one person decides to stop feeding grapes because of their lose, then it wasn't in vain.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #298460
05/26/07 04:22 PM
05/26/07 04:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
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Devon
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They are very intelligent and sneaky little monsters that go out of their way to get their own way, our girl Mary Jane was our piked eared princess of mayhem, she chased the dog to play she done the typical bouncy bouncy skunk run when she was found doing somethign she shouldnt, she climbed the stairs and climbed onto our bed stealing our pillows when she was ready for bed regardless of us being asleep or not, she clawed my legs for lap time and cuddles she is sorely missed. Sompy was more alloof he would chase us round the house when he was after something and make a groaning and grunting noise if we caught him upto something he should not be doing, he learnt how to break into the fridge 2 weeks after moving in and ran off with a lettuce (which he hates) to hide under a cabinet with it and then we heard a huge gruning noise and the stomping of his front feet and out popped this lettuce in disgust, we had to have the fridge locked to stop him getting in it. he was not a lap skunk he was a lay by your feet and wait to be stroked skunk but he was himself. We love them both and as you can see they kept us on our toes.

And Gossamer dont worry too much i have seen with my own eyes today what some of the glider community can be like to people they do not think are members here, shame I am aye guys, means you cant go on saying me or Moorie are making this up or Moorie is making up storys to scare people.

I have to say Im socked that only 2 or 3 people have bothered to be even a wee bit sensitive on this subject when it was my kids that died,its a different story when someones glider dies everyone trys to be gentle when replying but no come on me like a bulldozer! thanks I dont think I will be around here much longer I just cant believe how cruel some people are


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Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: eccles] #298472
05/26/07 04:34 PM
05/26/07 04:34 PM

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No bulldozer here, sweetheart. Just hugs, sympathy, and respect for what you have shared in order to help us all. hug2 I know some of the people here who came off as harsh just didn't think of how it sounded, and didn't mean it the way it came out. Maybe this will inspire tenderness in their hearts for you, just as I know you would have for them if they had lost their sweet animals. My heart goes out to you.

Love,
Jen

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ] #298480
05/26/07 04:43 PM
05/26/07 04:43 PM
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Devon
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No Jen you have been a real star as have a few others here ty.

Im off now so if anyone wants any more questions feel free to get in touch with Moorie or Jungleflockmom. If anyone else feels like twisting the knife you know how to pm me


www.southwest-sugargliders.co.uk

For all your UK and EU sugar glider needs!
Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer] #298914
05/27/07 11:01 AM
05/27/07 11:01 AM

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not sure if this has been mentioned yet, because i havent read the whole post, but guys... if you actually read the articles out there( please when u post an article post the link to it) they say there is a trend. They do not know for sure if it is the grapes. Also the ASPCA page makes no mention of how many incidents that were recorded prior to 1989 in order for them to conclude there was a trend.
just some things to think about. Grapes could be the cause, but then again this could just be another thing we are [censored] out about.

Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: silverwolf] #298917
05/27/07 11:04 AM
05/27/07 11:04 AM

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Originally Posted By: silverwolf
well you know I may be a little old fashioned about all the controversy but for instance we are not to feed chocolate to our animals because it is toxic. But it isnt toxic to us. Therefore I can see where dogs may have a problem with grapes. Mainly because dogs are conivours by nature not herbivours. Therefore alot of fruit and other foods is not good for them. You need to look at the species that are getting into trouble and figure this out if you fed your horse meat for instance they would get sick their body make up is not designed to handle meat. Also I am a little skeptical about the whole organic thing. I think a bunch of farmers are calling their food organic and laughing all the way to the bank. Organic is just a way to get consumers to pay more for the same food. By the way I have seen this so its not just speculation. If people really wanted natural organic foods they would stop processing and homogonizing (like with milk) and drink or eat it raw. The only way I trust it being truely organic is if I grow it myself and dont use fertilizer or pestisides then it organic.


i forget the details but for a farmer to be able to call his food orgainic it has to pass certain guidelines.

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