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Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34387
01/22/05 07:17 AM
01/22/05 07:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Mikey, you mention the scientific factor of "biorhythms". If you are considering doing a diet study on gliders you might want to visit this site before considering biorhythms.

http://skepdic.com/biorhyth.html

Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34388
01/22/05 01:11 PM
01/22/05 01:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Peggy you know I love you

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And Bourbon you know I love ya back!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Now, for the record here on my side!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I do keep bringing up the DD, and yes there are just as many faults in this diet as in any other diet...for one, it isnt the weight gain that worries me because I personally have not had that problem, it is the amount of vitamins our gliders get with it....not knowing the exact amount they need in the first place, we do not know with any diet out there, if they are receiving too many or not enough.
But I would like to make it very clear, the reasons people will only hear me use the BML and the Darcy diet as examples is simple, they are the ONLY TWO diets that I have ever heard of that has RECORDED DOCUMENTS in being beneficial to a gliders recovery. And there are many many diet plans out there.
It would be interesting to see if there are any other diets that people use that have documented proof that the diet they are feeding has helped bring a glider back from the bottoms of the pits, once they changed them to that particular diet plan.

Bourbon, I must say, I totally enjoyed reading the information that you just posted. And I hope that many of those that are trying to come up with a new diet will print that information out and go by some of the same steps that were taken for the BML diet.

As Mere had stated, *The Proof Is In The Pudding* and who knows, maybe enough people will be willing to put their money where their thoughts are and help with the research program to build the funding that is needed to find the things these little furballs need to live their lives as long as possible. Maybe all these documented cases of recovery (because they changed diets) can all be collected and each one will one day be able to be broken down as it will have to be and the answers we all search to find will be found.

Until than, I applaud every single person on this thread, for contributing and working together without turning this into an ugly mess!!
Keep it up!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34389
01/22/05 01:19 PM
01/22/05 01:19 PM

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CharlieH, though biorhythms may be considered pseudoscientific, aspects like environmental changes and nutritional shifts inducing healthy metabolic changes, psychological/neurological changes, hormonal changes, behavioural changes, and reproductive cycles in organisms are indeed scientific fact. When the days get shorter (photoperiod changes) ferrets begin growing in their winter coat, bears begin getting hungrier and begin eating to store fat for the winter hibernation, water fowl begin flying south, deciduous trees begin breaking down pigments in the leaves and they change colour... When the days get longer, ferrets begin shedding their winter coat, bears reactivate metabolic processes and awake from their hibernation period, water fowl fly north, deciduous trees begin producing certain pigments... many animals base their life cycles on environmental changes or with seasons. Many animals become fertile or go into heat in the spring. Various captive reptiles, if not properly "hibernated" for several months will not have fertile eggs during egg-laying season. It's a biological principle and fact, Charlie. Other changes that affect such physiological changes in organisms is temperature fluctuations, changes in humidity/water availability, and dietary shifts! When food becomes less available various invertebrate, reptile and amphibian species will undergo aestevation; in absence of water, camels will begin recycling urine to retain water and begin breaking down fat/water stores in their hump.

See, this is my whole point. Is there proof that with seasonal/nutritional/dietary changes, gliders don't naturally have shifting biological processes? You must understand though we've domesticated these guys for a few decades now, they have evolved over millions of years in a geographically isolated region, a region with it's own unique changes in seasons and concentration schedules of flora and fauna. It has remained untouched and unaltered for millions and millions of years! Gliders, and all the species of the region, plants and animals, have evolved through these annual rituals and its a design that is part of a larger scale connection of all the organisms in the Australian and Indonesian forest ecosystems. Think of the big picture Charlie. Gliders naturally are primarily herbivorous in the winter months and primarily insectivorous in the summer months and these constant changes in diet and season has directly shaped these organisms behaviourally, biologically, etc. Nature is indifferent to whether or not these marsupials are compatible pet animals or not; They are specifically evolved animals, with specific roles in nature, with specific biological needs, possessing specific physiological processes.

So what are the ramifications of this then? Well, have we tested that these dietary changes don't inherently promote a healthy reproductive cycle, for instance? Perhaps, it influences nutritional/health conundrums that we haven't quite put our finger on like the absorption of calcium or the release of iron in the liver or the proper metabolism of high protein concentrations. Perhaps it has psychological ramifications, like the existence of self-mutilation in domestic gliders. Who knows? There are endless possibilities to this variable. No one seems to have tested it and if they have done such studies I really think that it would be worth review for contribution to the diets that we subject our domesticated gliders to. How do we know that providing our North American domestic gliders a dual dietary regimen with different nutritional ratios in each that mimic the seasonal nutritional shifts in wild gliders, for example, would not be ultimately benefitial to the gliders?

I'm only suggesting it as a factor. Why would we rule out that possibility, when it's such a basic premise to all of nature? Like Bourbon said, we gotta think outside of the box...

That is what I meant and "biorhythm" was the wrong terminology for what I meant... I should have said "biological rhythms". If you try a search on "biological rhythms" Charlie you may find plenty of scientific studies on it incase you may be interested... my apologies for the confusion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34390
01/22/05 04:38 PM
01/22/05 04:38 PM

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Mikey--with the thoughts of the changes in climate that domesticated gliders now deal with, comes another problem. North America has varied climates as well-from dry desert to humid and hot Florida and Texas, to well, you know, cold in the winter! Down here, the coldest we ever get, where I live is in the 30's and that is rarely for more than 6 hours. They do not deal with a winter as say,you would in Toronto--so studying the effects of loss of light, weather changes etc would be an extensive although VERY interesting study to do. Let me know if you consider pursuing this, as a Floridian, I am pretty opposite what you have up there! I would be happy to get data from my kids for a scientifically based study of this type. It would be helpful to have a doctor of zoology as well as a vet involved in this, as many American and Canadian vets just don't have the knowledge of our little marsupial buddies!

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34391
01/22/05 05:06 PM
01/22/05 05:06 PM

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Definitely, Glidinforlove...

With regards to the gliders and diet, I was actually referring to the nutritional shifts in the diet as opposed to actual physical changes in the environment like temperature drops, photoperiod changes, etc. But you're right! Perhaps, those factors play roles in the health of gliders, too. I'm sure if it was the case, there would be certain trends evident in the domestic gliders cross-climatically.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34392
01/22/05 11:56 PM
01/22/05 11:56 PM

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Just chimin in and saying thank you for this great info and also keeping it a discussion. We can learn so much this way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34393
01/23/05 07:08 AM
01/23/05 07:08 AM

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Once again, I have another question... lol. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bourbon and perhaps others have mentioned that bml is nutritionally balanced to match the diet of a wild glider, and that BML has been dissected and the nutritional info compared to that of a wild glider diet. From what I understand, the nutritional statistics between the two diets (wild and BML) match.

I was wondering where I can find perhaps some literature or document on the methodology that lead to the conclusion that BML is a diet that has nutritionally equal amounts of vitamins/nutrients as the diets of wild gliders. I'm curious for several reasons. First, I wanted to know how they were able to sample a wild glider's diet in order to determine the nutritional values of its contituents for comparison of the values of BML. Do we know exact ratios of the different food items that a wild glider eats? Also, glider diets shift with the seasons so was wondering how this was taken into account? Surely it isn't possible to determine nutritional amounts through fecal examinations of wild gliders.

Second, and this is my main question, (assuming the nutritional values of the wild gliders' diets were known) surely the process couldn't have simply been a matter of dry weighing the bml components and then matching the numbers with the corresponding nutrient amounts of the wild glider's diet. The reason I say this is because I wanted to bring up the factor of bioavailability. I also can't seem to find a thread on bioavailability anywhere on these forums, and even in particular as it relates to the nutritional equivalence between the BML diet and the wild glider diet. For instance, if one was to dry weigh the components of bml, determine that BML has about x g or n% protein, then find that a wild glider's diet also contains x g or n% protien, it would be incorrect to simply assume that a glider would obtain the same amount of protein from either diet. The reason for this is because, although the protein numbers of both the BML and the wild glider's diet (provided through dry weighing statistics) may match, it still does not necessarily imply that the gliders will absorb and use up the same amounts of available protein. Because the food items of each diet (bml and wild) are physically and chemically different, you must take into account the factor of bioavailability. Factors like the form in which the given nutrients exist in the diets may affect the extent to which the nutrients are absorbed and used up by the glider. In other words, despite the fact that the bml diet and a wild glider diet may possess equal amounts of protein, for instance, and because the forms at which protein exists in the bml diet (i.e. egg, chicken baby food, crickets/mealworms) differ from the forms that protein exists in a wild glider's diet (i.e. insects, invertebrates, and small vertebrates), the domestic bml-feeding gliders will not necessarily absorb the protein at the same rate or in the same amount as the wild gliders, simply due to this principle of bioavailability.

I'm sure the factor of bioavailability was tackled and I'd really like some informational references or perhaps again an explanation of methodologies in regards to how it was concluded that the bml diet nutritionally matched a wild glider dietary provisions. Did such studies simply determine that the two diets only offered equal amounts of the vitamins/nutrients? Was bioavailability a factor even considered when comparing the nutritional stats of the two diets (I'm sure it had to be, although I'm having trouble finding reference to it anywhere)? The reason why I feel such information is relevant to this issue is because this may perhaps be one of the reasons that favour a more naturalistic diet containing exact native diet components for domestic gliders, because the nutrients provided by the food stuffs will be readily absorbed in the same manner/extent to which those same nutrients are absorbed by wild gliders.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34394
01/23/05 07:56 AM
01/23/05 07:56 AM

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Thank you all for this thread! I have really enjoyed reading this and the links <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34395
01/23/05 11:33 AM
01/23/05 11:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,354
Lexington, KY
Lucy Offline
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Posts: 7,354
Lexington, KY
Mikey, I would again like to refer you to the tapes from the 2002 and 2003 SGGAs, which you may be able to get from Tom, or borrow from someone on the board who purchased them. Ellen Dierenfeld gave presentations which should answer a number of your questions. Not being a wildlife nutritionist, my answers probably wouldn't satisfy you. But I think the answers to your questions would largely be answered in those presentations.



Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34396
01/23/05 12:45 PM
01/23/05 12:45 PM

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Thanks Lucy! I appreciate that. I will definitely look into those tapes.

Also, it's worth noting,

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Another thing you were contantly doing was throwing dogs and ferrets into the game, I don't and won't discuss their commercial diets for many reasons. We are dealing strictly with the Sugar Gliders.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In many instances, Bourbon, examples drawn from ferrets and dogs make relevant revelations, especially since we're continually aiming at looking out of the box here (i.e. looking around at good examples of diets and animals that we have had the opportunity, time, and numbers of animals to study, analyze, and discover), in terms of diet. For instance, it's been mentioned several times that ill gliders or gliders with HLP will bounce back by allowing them to put on weight, as well as accelerating cell regenerative processes. However, I'd then point out that an ill, grossly underweight, and overall dying ferret will also "bounce back" and gain weight as well as have cellular regenerative processes accelerated if fed on a premium catfood diet in the same amount of time that a premium ferret diet would show such regenerative results which was in most cases is 7-15 days (in fact, before we had the premium ferret food that is available to us today, feeding premium catfood was something we did for a long time many, many years ago to help rehabilitate sick and rescued ferrets at the animal and veterinary clinics that I worked at.) On the catfood ferrets gained weight fast, their activity levels soared, regeneration was more than evident, and the ferrets appeared healthy, and once again, all this in 7-15 short days. When rehabilitating ferrets today, we use a premium ferret diet but the same results are acheived in the same amount of time (7-15 days) during rehabilitation. Ofcourse, we now know that ferrets suffer from a catfood diet (if signs don't manifest themselves in the immediate animal, they show in the generations proceding from the catfood-eater), but it's worth pointing out that this example is relevant because it comes to show you that the rather immediate results of cell regeneration, gainging weight, and qualitative observations of "bouncing back" and also the apparent sustainment afterwards do not necessarily indicate the efficiency and adequacy of a diet.

Thus, there is no reason to exclude examples of other domestic species and their diets, when it comes to attempting to learn the nature of gliders and glider diets. I feel they may prove useful at pointing out errs in conclusions or assumptions, or can also affirm and validate them as it pertains to glider diets.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34397
01/23/05 01:45 PM
01/23/05 01:45 PM

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I can answer your first question...

They determine what a wild glider eats by trapping the glider, killing it, and spilling its gut contents.

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34398
01/23/05 01:59 PM
01/23/05 01:59 PM

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Awww... I was just informed by Tom that they stopped selling copies of the SGGA meetings due to lack of sales. Is anyone here willing to lend me a copy of the 2003 and 2004 meetings? Please........*with a cherry on top of that*

Thanks, Natalie. Yes, I had initially thought that that was how they would determine that, but the complication here is gliders eat different things in different amounts depending on the season and availability of specific food items. The reason I wanted to know details of the methodologies was because I wanted to know how they were able to determine the ratios of nutrients in a constantly shifting diet. Did they simply determine the stats from weekly or monthly samples and take the average or something? LOL. Well, I know they probably didn't do that, but I would really be interested in finding out how they compared the nutritional numbers of a rather static diet (BML) to a shifting diet (wild glider diet).

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34399
01/23/05 02:06 PM
01/23/05 02:06 PM

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I'll see if I can find an example so you can ready their Materials and Methods section...

They account for seasonal and regional variances by trapping and killing over a range of area (whatever range their study is interested) and at regular intervals over whatever time period they are interested in. Their goal is to make the factor they are actually looking at the only variance in their subjects. So, if they are looking at regional differences, they will divide their study area into regions (probably using topographical landmarks) and take x number of individuals from each region at y frequency. So, 10 individuals from each area every 4 days, or something. Although, oftentimes they do have to take more than one variable into account (season and area, for instance) in which case the statistics work is quite complicated and not something I'll get into here.

Now, I should mention... for larger species (ungulates, canids, etc), they use scat analyses. However, for small arboreal (and nocturnal!) beings such as gliders, this would be impossible.

I'll let you know when I find a good example for you, so you can read the study. Might not necessarily be gliders, but I'll TRY to find one about gliders.

Last edited by Natalie; 01/23/05 02:35 PM.
Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34400
01/23/05 02:31 PM
01/23/05 02:31 PM

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I see... but see, if I'm understanding correctly (my goodness, this brings me back to stats class) that still leads to various numbers for the same nutrients depending on the time that the data from samples were determined (again, gliders eat different things at different times; they are maninly insectivorous during the summer months and feed on botanicals during th winter months). How can it be concluded that BML with fixed numbers match the nutritional values of a wild glider's diet with nutritional numbers that change seasonally? In other words, you are saying that they gathered data in different regions throughout the year for each nutrient (e.g. potein, calcium, iron, phosphorus, as well as micronutrients like magnesium, zinc, etc.) at a set time interval, but how then can one conclude that the BML nutritional stats which are relatively fixed values match the nutritional stats of the wild diet which are varying values (determined at each time interval). Or are you implying that indeed they did take the average of the nutritional numbers by adding up all the numbers of each nutrient and dividing them by the number of time intervals? If so, I highly doubt this was the case because that would be an err in methods. This is why I'm interested in the methodology of the nutritional comparison and "matching" of BML and the wild diet. My question was this issue, as well as that of bioavailability.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> BTW, Natalie, Pm me and let me know how your rats are doing? I bet you're having a blast. I told you so!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34401
01/23/05 02:52 PM
01/23/05 02:52 PM

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First of all, I have really enjoyed this thread. I just wanted to make one comment. In order to get a diet that matches their wild diet, wouldn't you have to get the whole food chain there? I mean, let's take an example of an insect. If they eat a mealie worm in Australia (I don't know if they have them there, but I'm just trying to make a point). What did that mealie worm eat? Was it eucalyptus? If so, what is in the soil that feeds that eucalyptus? There's a huge chain there that would be absolutely impossible to reproduce, unless you import every meal for the glider.

And would that diet be different for the Aussie glider vs. the New Guinea glider? Would that mean that you'd need to see which country your glider's line went back to?

To me, what would make the most sense would be to find out one thing:
What the nutritional breakdown of the foods they eat are. So not a matter of what type of bug, but rather how much of each nutritional element. How much calcium, how much of each vitamin, how much was fiber, etc.

Also, I fully believe in evolution. All species change over time, whether it's due to them being domesticated, or their environment changing.

So, if you are meeting the basic nutritional needs, I would assume that gliders would adapt to that over time. Of course you aren't going to try to adapt a glider to a no-calcium diet. But, the source of that calcium is different for captivity, and maybe there is nothing wrong with that.

I think that to give a glider it's wild diet, you need to release it into the wild.

But, back to the point - I'm glad that there are people looking deeper into the wild diet to be able to incorporate it into their captive diets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34402
01/23/05 03:09 PM
01/23/05 03:09 PM

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Of course, someone else will have to answer that question, Mikey, as I wasn't around for the development of the BML. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do, however, question the theory that there ought to be a seasonal variance in captive gliders' diets. My glider room is 78F all 12 months of the year. My gliders have the same amount and quality of food available to them all 12 months out of the year. My gliders do not experience a rainy season nor a dry season. My gliders who breed, do so at a constant rate all 12 months of the year. Their photo period barely even changes... as my work schedule, etc. isn't dictated by the time of year. Being that their needs, activities, experiences, and available resources (water, warmth, shelter, etc) don't change with the season... I have a very hard time believing that their diet should.

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34403
01/23/05 04:07 PM
01/23/05 04:07 PM

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Hmmm... interesting...

The original concept I suggested was not to completely duplicate a wild glider's diet, but rather to add more natural food items for the reasons that I stated in my previous five posts.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
To me, what would make the most sense would be to find out one thing:
What the nutritional breakdown of the foods they eat are. So not a matter of what type of bug, but rather how much of each nutritional element. How much calcium, how much of each vitamin, how much was fiber, etc.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

As I've mentioned in my previous post, it's not enough to just simply breakdown the nutritional amounts of the two diets because of the factor of bioavailability. In other words, although the two diets may provide equal amounts of nutrients it doesn't necessarily mean the glider will absorb the same amount of nutrients in both diets, due to several factors mostly regarding the nature/state at which the nutrients exist in the different food types (e.g. egg/chicken babyfood vs. insects/vertebrates in BML vs. wild). It's just a biochemical principle that I was curious about as it relates to the wild vs. bml nutritional comparison. It was why I wanted to look into methodologies.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I do, however, question the theory that there ought to be a seasonal variance in captive gliders' diets. My glider room is 78F all 12 months of the year. My gliders have the same amount and quality of food available to them all 12 months out of the year. My gliders do not experience a rainy season nor a dry season. My gliders who breed, do so at a constant rate all 12 months of the year. Their photo period barely even changes... as my work schedule, etc. isn't dictated by the time of year. Being that their needs, activities, experiences, and available resources (water, warmth, shelter, etc) don't change with the season... I have a very hard time believing that their diet should.

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Well, for one thing, as stated in an earlier post I was reffering mostly to the dietary nutritional shift aspect of it. I was also mostly considering long-term effects of placing these animals with inherently shifting diets on static diets like bml or any other non varying diets. As mentioned, how do we know nutritional shifts don't influence things like the absorption of calcium (insects are high in phosphorus and gliders feed on insects for 6 months of the year; wild gliders also don't seem to be suffering from calcium deficiencies; absorbing calcium has always been an issue in domestic gliders) or the release of iron in the liver (many domestic gliders have died from eating high iron foods like raisins, while many insects also contain relatively significant amounts of iron - 100 grams of raisins is about 0.6 mg and 100 g of grasshoppers is about 5 mg of iron - but the glider seem to be able to process or rid the iron from their livers as they feed on large portions of insects/invertebrates) or the proper metabolism of high protein concentrations? Perhaps it has psychological influences, like the existence of self-mutilation in domestic gliders.

I'm also not ready to fully accept that domestic gliders and wild gliders are significantly physiologically different. From my previous studies/research on microevolution, genetic drift, as well as others relating to this, significant changes in metabolic or nutritionally related processes (e.g. the manner in which a given species extracts nutrients or the dietary requirements of a species) do not change over a few generations. Such changes occur over a very long time over many generations. If gliders have only been smuggled over into North America and domesticated here since the late 80's then the math indicates that the gliders we have today only account for 20 or so generations at most, and that generally is not enough to significantly (I said significantly) change the metabolic, nutritional makeup of an animal. Usually, such a period of time (20 years or so) and number of generations brings about rather minute changes, mostly physical changes, for instance, shapes of beaks over several generations of finches or the varying measurements of body parts in line-bred pure bred dogs, or the "pudgey" face of Srlb's Dasher (who absolutely turns me inside out looking at his adorable pictures. Srlb, that unusually pudgy face! You should really consider promoting that feature. See if you can perhaps begin promoting a new variety of glider by mating him with other facially pudgies. I want to take my fingers and pinch those little glider cheeks, he's so cute! LOL.)

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34404
01/23/05 05:38 PM
01/23/05 05:38 PM

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So, then, say that someone were to implement a seasonal dietary shift in their gliders' lives. Say that insects were offered in greater proportion during April - August, and withheld (or significantly reduced) during November - February. (These are just example months, I'm not trying to say that those are in fact the correct or appropriate seasons.) That would mean that their protein consumption was increased during that period, and that their caloric consumption likely was, as well. In order for that to be appropriate, we would also have to alter other factors of their existence... can't have one without all, as it would throw your whole "naturalism" theory off. So do you propose that we also seasonally alter their temperatures, humidity levels, photo periods, etc?

Also, I can't understand how anyone can say that wild gliders don't self mutilate! How would they even begin to know? It's not like they'd be doing it on someone's window sill or front porch so it could be observed... it would be in a tree hollow somewhere... in the privacy of their own nest. The fact of the matter is that there's no way to know if they do or don't! If a wild glider were to get hung up on something, or break it's foot, or break its tail... it may not even have a change to chew on itself... it would be picked off be a predator long before that had a chance to happen.

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34405
01/23/05 10:31 PM
01/23/05 10:31 PM

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That question is truly excellent. Well, Natalie, in animals factors that influence biological rhythms (like nutritional shifts and temperature drops) do not always necessarily have to occur together and can affect biological rhythms independent of each other. For instance, several species of lizard will under go their annual aestevation if there is a change in nutrition e.g. low food availability (e.g. as in various species of chameleon) even though daily temperatures may remain the same. On the other hand, several other species of lizard (e.g. anoles, various gecko species) may undergo aestivation if the daily temperatures drop, even though food may be abundant. So, in effect, the two factors affecting biological rhythms, in this case nutritional shift and temperature act independently of eachother, and depending on the species, bring about different metabolic/physiological changes. Such changes are important to the fertility of many female lizard eggs in the laying season.

So applying to gliders, although one may apply a nutritional shift like the dietary regimen that you have described, one would not necessarily have to change other factors like temperature, photoperiod, or any other aspects of the glider's life, as you have called it, in order to activate healthy biological cycles (should there be any). Also, I wasn't implying that the dietary shift alone was the one and only factor, and so perhaps, yes, a combination of things, like photoperiod, etc. could possibility regulate such healthy biological rhythms. I don't know, and I'd be interested in studies on such factors influencing biological rhythms in gliders. I was also only using an example with regards to the self-mutilation (Natalie, your post made me and my friend laugh at the part that you talked about the window and privacy lol). All those were mere examples of possible ramifications if dietary shifts did indeed have an effect on existent healthy biological rhythms in gliders. There really would be innumerable possibilities. The whole concept of biological rhythms as it applies to diets is only a factor that I have suggested as a possibility. It really seemed an atleast plausible factor to me in the case of domestic gliders and their diet, when I'd learned about the wild glider's change in diet according to the season's availability of food items.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34406
01/23/05 10:57 PM
01/23/05 10:57 PM

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It is my understanding that wild gliders only breed seasonally, as well... would you propose that they are not allowed to breed but at certain times of the year? Certainly these would have to coincide with their periods of increased protein availability. Many species (I'd venture to say perhaps even most) will refrain from reproduction in the face of low food availability, or a number of other limiting factors. Perhaps the fact that our captive gliders do conceive and rear young all year long attests to the fact that they are receiving more adequate nutrition all year long than are their wild counterparts?

I must say, that if one truly believes (which you seem to... correct me if I'm mistaken in that assumption) that the reintroduction of seasonal shifts/biorhythms is necessary, or even beneficial... then only applying that theory to dietary availability would seem... incomplete... mediocre, even. Why the assumption that diet would be the most important? Or is it because it would be the easiest to manipulate?

"Sorry kids... no breeding this month... I'll have to separate you for the next week... and no worms either... don't you know your wild cousins won't have bugs for another month?" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (Sorry... couldn't resist...) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clown.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Natalie; 01/23/05 10:59 PM.
Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34407
01/23/05 11:54 PM
01/23/05 11:54 PM

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LOL No Natalie as I said it's only a plausible theory. Not something I would call anything more that highly likely just yet. Infact, I almost feel I've given the topic of biological rhythms more posts than I had originally thought it needed. Also, I wrote in my last post that it could be a number of factors that influence biological rhythms and that I had only been using the "nutritional shift" concept in regards to domestic diets as one example.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
So applying to gliders, although one may apply a nutritional shift like the dietary regimen that you have described, one would not necessarily have to change other factors like temperature, photoperiod, or any other aspects of the glider's life, as you have called it, in order to activate healthy biological cycles (should there be any). Also, I wasn't implying that the dietary shift alone was the one and only factor, and so perhaps, yes, a combination of things, like photoperiod, etc. could possibility regulate such healthy biological rhythms. I don't know, and I'd be interested in studies on such factors influencing biological rhythms in gliders.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I wanted to mention that it wouldn't necessarily be considered incomplete/mediochre to apply only one factor affecting a particular biological rhythm on an animal to encite changes in it, and here's why. Going back to my lizard model, for example, wild chameleons naturally experience two seasons in Madagascar, a dry season (characterized by high humidity levels and low food availability and low photoperiod) and a wet season (characterized by high humidity levels and high food availability and long photperiod). Now, although wild chameleons naturally experience entire seasonal changes, for some reason in most chameleons species the onset of aestevation in captivity is influenced by a lack of food, and not by a decrease in humidity levels (i.e. it can be humid or dry; if there's no food... they hibernate). So, in effect, the chameleons still will undergo their annual aestivation despite the application of any other environmental factors. This is why in many chameleon species in captivity, to have fertile eggs in the breeding season one must place the chameleon on a low insect diet, to induce the lizard to undergo hibernation, without having to tamper with humidity levels (tampering with humidity levels with the more fragile chameleon species could be fatal). Thus, if the idea of nutritional shifts were to be incorporated into a domestic glider's diet, with other variables like humidity/photoperiod not applied to the glider, it would not necessarily make it incomplete or mediochre.

Also, it's worth mentioning that many times it only requires the application of one factor to regulate a healthy biological rhythm. In many species of ants inhabiting temperate regions, for instance, the productive queens will begin producing young queens and drones for the spring if the colony is subjected to either a nutritional shift, a daily temperature drop, OR a decrease in photoperiod. I used to raise and culture enormous colonies various species of ant, I noticed that if I applied any one of the factors (i.e. if I either made food less available to them, or if I turned heat lamps off for a few months, or if I decreased the time that the heat lamps were on) , it would bring about healthy normal physiological changes in the insects, including the production of the young queens and drones. It only required one of the three factors for it to happen. Thus, it's another reason why it wouldn't necessarily be considered incomplete if only a nutritional shift was applied to a domestic glider's diet for the purposes of regulating its natural biological rhythms.

Anyway, the issue of biological rhythms was brought up as a factor that was related to the broader topic (which I'm more interested in) of methodologies in determining that BML and the wild diets matched nutritonally.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34408
01/24/05 12:33 AM
01/24/05 12:33 AM

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You're right... that's my point... the breeding ceases when conditions are less than satisfactory. Regardless of whether its temperature, relative humidity, available food, etc. I was agreeing with you on that point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Care to comment on the other half of my post? It seems to have been forgotten, but ties in so closely (especially the last part)...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It is my understanding that wild gliders only breed seasonally, as well... would you propose that they are not allowed to breed but at certain times of the year? Certainly these would have to coincide with their periods of increased protein availability. Many species (I'd venture to say perhaps even most) will refrain from reproduction in the face of low food availability, or a number of other limiting factors. Perhaps the fact that our captive gliders do conceive and rear young all year long attests to the fact that they are receiving more adequate nutrition all year long than are their wild counterparts?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34409
01/24/05 12:44 AM
01/24/05 12:44 AM

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Oh woops. Well about the second half then, I believe it was Bourbon or Ellen that mentioned to me that proliferation isn't necessarily a good thing. Just because the gliders may be producing more young, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is benefitial. Yes, it may perhaps indicate that domestic gliders may be acquiring a full set of nutrients year-round, but producing frequent sets of offspring over time has proven to be detrimental to a glider's health. It does a lot on a glider's body to undergo unbridled frequent breeding and proliferation. This can apply not only to the female gliders, but possibly to the male gliders as well; how do we know that the constant upsurge of testosterone and other hormones in the male gliders year-round isn't affecting the male gliders health-wise? In the wild, if there are "breeding seasons" determined by dietary shifts (e.g. the higher availability of protein inducing or atleast regulating breeding) then it's quite possible that dietary shifts affect the hormonal levels in males and it would be yet another example of a naturally occuring biological rhythm in the gliders affected by natural dietary shifts (i.e. in the summer months when protien is high in the gliders' diets, the male testosterone levels are high and females breed and produce offspring; in the winter months when protien is low in the gliders' diets, the male testosterone levels are lowered and females breed less and produce less offspring).


Which brings us back to the whole point of the hidden benefits of placing a glider on a diet that mimics the natural dietary shifts, because it would potentially keep breedings like you mentioned in check. Perhaps, many of the unsolved health problems of domestic gliders are sexually or hormonally related and are affected by the domestic gliders' year-round breedings and by the interference of such naturally occuring biological rhythms (reproductive/hormonal cycles). Are there studies testing whether or not regular seasonal changes and the according hormonal changes that occur due to those seasonal changes maintain the health of other biological functions in gliders? Again, the ramifications are endless.

Like I said, you can't disclude the sugar gider's evolutionary history from the picture. The animals have evolved to a specific environmental/ecological/seasonal schedule over millions of years. It's an idea that may be outside of the "sugar glider domestic diet" box, but is actually inside of a larger box (called "ecology").

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34410
01/24/05 01:10 AM
01/24/05 01:10 AM

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My fear, here, is that someone (or rather, many someones) will come along, and read about how little we truly know... and decide that they can just feed their glider whatever, because no one knows what's best, anyway. So let me take this opportunity to say (and this is not directed at you, Mikey, nor anyone else involved in the thread, but at those who may read it in the future)...

While we do not at this time have the "ultimate" glider diet... we have a pretty good idea. I'm sure the purpose of this post being started was not to challenge the fact that glider owners at this juncture should be following an "accepted" diet, but rather to explore the possibility for future changes and/or improvements.

It's exactly like Bourbon said... the more we know, the more we realize how little we know.


Now... back to the discussion... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Perhaps, many of the unsolved health problems are sexually related and are affected by the domestic gliders' year-round breedings.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I must say, that I would disagree with the idea that non-breeding gliders are somehow healthier than breeding gliders. In fact, the only gliders I've ever had problems with were those who are not bred.... however my sample size is QUITE small. I'd be curious to hear if those with larger sample sizes see a similar pattern, or if they see more problems in their breeding gliders. I have a feeling that the results will not show an increase in health related problems, resulting from a diminished immune system or some other proposed ramification from breeding.


For now... back to the research table I go... I've got a whole new set of questions I need to answer for myself now... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Natalie; 01/24/05 02:33 AM.
Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34411
01/24/05 01:29 AM
01/24/05 01:29 AM

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Well, see it works both ways. You mentioned:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I must say, that I would disagree with the idea that non-breeding gliders are somehow healthier than breeding gliders. In fact, the only gliders I've ever had problems with were those who are not bred....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I meant that the breedings could be in check (i.e. only or mostly occuring during the half year when the domestic gliders are fed the protien-rich diets) not totally eliminated. I believe Ellen or Bourbon stated that over-breeding was detrimental to a glider's health. Anyway, if gliders aren't bred at all, the same theoretical principle applies, and the scientific model could perhaps explain why you've been having health issues with non-breeding gliders. Theoretically, like a glider that is overbred (e.g. a male having high testosterone levels year-round), a glider that is not bred at all wouldn't undergo the natural upsurge and waning of hormones involved in a glider's natural biological rhythm, thus causing health problems. The more we talk about this, it seems the more this "naturalistic dietary shift incorporated into the doemstic glider diet" idea makes sense.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34412
01/24/05 01:30 AM
01/24/05 01:30 AM

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I'm curious how you would propose to implement such a thing.

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34413
01/24/05 01:44 AM
01/24/05 01:44 AM

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Well, I'd call it the Mikey Natalie diet. Just kidding! I certainly don't have the audacity to be creating a diet myself. But relating to the suggestion I made earlier in this thread, domestic gliders placed on a dual dietary regimen mimicking a wild glider's diet is something worth testing.

For the test group: For six months, the subject gliders will be placed on a diet that have nutritional values mimicking (I'm sure it would be difficult to accurately match; and again, I need the methodologies of how they determined the values of wild glider diets) the wild glider diets of the summer months (e.g. high protein level, lower botanical/fruit/veggie portions)... then for the next six months, those same gliders would be placed on a diet with nutritional values mimicking the values of wild glider diets in the winter months (e.g. lower protein levels, high botanical/fruit/veggie portions).

For the control group: The subject gliders would be placed on a year-round diet of BML.

I'm curious to see what such studies would reveal over several years.

Natalie I wanna start breeding gliders until we can have a sample of 1000 gliders so I can stop dwelling on this whole thing and test this theory already! LOL. J/K ofcourse...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34414
01/24/05 01:51 AM
01/24/05 01:51 AM

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Well, being a Wildlife Biology major, and having written up and helped with major research proposals... I can tell you what the major limiting factors to such a study would be...

Money, money, and money.

I'm a lowly college student... I sure don't have the several hundred grand to donate (nor the desire to breed or be responsible for 1000+ gliders! lol!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As was mentioned before, a preliminary study has been performed. The results of which we are hoping will be published soon!

I guess we'll just have to stay tuned until then. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But on a side note... thank you for the interesting, and civil discussion.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34415
01/24/05 02:07 AM
01/24/05 02:07 AM

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Ahhhh $$$... isn't that always a limiting factor in literally all things good in life?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />*dreams of lying on a hot beach in Australia infront of my beachside home surrounded by my 20 or so Great Danes and a handful of pretty maids <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> bringing me and "YIPPY", my pet spider monkey lying next to me, glasses of coconut juice and dishes of sushi*

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />Thank you for the stimulating conversation, Natalie!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: BML Questions [Re: ] #34416
01/24/05 02:53 AM
01/24/05 02:53 AM

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......a pet spider monkey.......Yippy?! What?! lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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