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Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338094
07/13/07 04:17 PM
07/13/07 04:17 PM

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I'm not quite understanding how breeding for color is necessarily wrong, providing one does so responsibly. If the parents are healthy, why is it any different to breed two white faces together than two classic grays? If leu were the dominant color based on a survival of the fittest scenario (I gave the example of their habitat in Australia being snow covered), would it then be any more wrong to breed grays?

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent] #338099
07/13/07 04:21 PM
07/13/07 04:21 PM
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Well, I have a leu and she is perfectly healthy. So is my WF Mosaic. He is from the sterile line as well. Honestly I don't know of anyone with colored gliders that have any form of defect.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent] #338104
07/13/07 04:22 PM
07/13/07 04:22 PM

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Originally Posted By: Vincent
So in reality, the healthiest glider there is is most likely a grey one?

I mean, selective breeding is cute and all, but did you know that white tigers don't exist?


Not true at all. The healthiest gliders are those who come from healthy parents, GOOD breeding, and proper care. There are color variations that occur naturally, and selective breeding puts those variations together to make more of that variation at a faster rate than just letting it happen. A white face is not necessarily any less healthy than a gray or a leu or ...
You need to realize, there is a difference between selective breeding and inbreeding. Inbreeding is putting two closely related animals together. Linebreeding is those of common ancestory (ie, common great grandparent). While selective breeding unfortunately does entail these practices at times (though, I don't condone that), selective breeding can also be just that--selecting desireable traits, such as two white face gliders, and putting them together to make white face offspring.

Editting to add: In fact, gliders will kill their young if they detect anything wrong with them. If leus and albinos were so unhealthy, mom and dad would take care of that. It's a survival instinct--a weak, sickly colony member will attract predators. Everything they do is in a means to protect the colony.

Last edited by aproductof; 07/13/07 04:25 PM.
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent] #338109
07/13/07 04:25 PM
07/13/07 04:25 PM

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Are there any gliders that are all white but still have the black stripe down the back? That would be too cute! smile

Daniel

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338123
07/13/07 04:37 PM
07/13/07 04:37 PM

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The way I look at it, with all the hype about "leu's" "albinos" "mosaics" and all the rest of the color variations, unless you can verify the family lineage and find a decent, truthful, reputable breeder, I would STAY CLEAR of them and save your money.

With all the pressures on them, supply is low and demand is high and it makes room for a LOT of people to breed unethically. The majority of people love to have the thing that's most "popular" and the most "different". And I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who would willingly sacrifice gliders in order to make more money and try to tell you otherwise. I'm happy with my two gliders now. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars for one just because it's a different color. Why pay THAT much more just for something that you think is "prettier" when it could end up being sterile too? Color & gene mutations are being put up on a pedestal when they should not be.

If you handed a blind person 2 gliders, one that was 'mosaic' and one that was standard grey, and you asked the person which one they would pay more for, I'm sure they could not honestly answer you because to them, they are the same. It shouldn't be any different to anyone else.

(Just my opinion, please dont attack me)

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338126
07/13/07 04:40 PM
07/13/07 04:40 PM
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Sherman, Texas
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Actually I agree MrsKing. All four of mine are grey and I couldnt be happier, its their personalities that make them so different.


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338184
07/13/07 06:04 PM
07/13/07 06:04 PM

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Originally Posted By: MrsKing
The way I look at it, with all the hype about "leu's" "albinos" "mosaics" and all the rest of the color variations, unless you can verify the family lineage and find a decent, truthful, reputable breeder, I would STAY CLEAR of them and save your money.

Why couldn't the same be said of gray gliders? There are just as many, if not more, people unethically breeding gray gliders just to make a quick buck.

Quote:
Why pay THAT much more just for something that you think is "prettier" when it could end up being sterile too? Color & gene mutations are being put up on a pedestal when they should not be.

The thing is, most color isn't a mutation (with the exception of albinism, the t+ or t- is the inability to synthesis melanin at varying degrees). This is basic genetics. These animals carry genes for different colors, and depending on how they pair up, different aspects will be expressed.

Why people pay more is a matter of choice. But breeding for color does nothing to destroy the overall integrity of the animal, especially in captivity--it's just a different color of fur.
Back to albinos... There are many animals, such as hedgehogs, where albinism is dominant, very common, and have no health problems. Others include rats and mice.
If any line has health problems, it's not due to the color, but to the line itself (see poor breeding).

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: MizValorie] #338194
07/13/07 06:18 PM
07/13/07 06:18 PM

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Originally Posted By: MizValorie
I believe Creaminos where cross bred (With i dont know what!) through the mill breeders, flying fur ranch...

Correct me if I'm wrong...


Creaminos were not "cross bred". They did originate at FFR. They appeared from 2 normal grays, the same way that the "Taylor" line of albinos began. It was a lucky pairing of 2 gray gliders that both happened to carry the gene for albanism.

For the record, I do not believe that breeding black beauty to black beauty will ever end up producing a melanistic glider. Melanism is a gene. Breeding dark to dark gliders may produce darker gliders, but never melanistic. You can not produce a leu by breeding light gliders together. Leucitic is a gene and the glider must carry the gene. It doesn't just come from coat color.

Originally Posted By: MrsKing
The way I look at it, with all the hype about "leu's" "albinos" "mosaics" and all the rest of the color variations, unless you can verify the family lineage and find a decent, truthful, reputable breeder, I would STAY CLEAR of them and save your money.


You will find that most breeders of "colored" gliders take extreme care in documenting the lineage of their animals. Most of these gliders can be traced back several generations on both sides. They are careful in choosing mates that are as unrelated as possible. They keep track of health and temperment in all their lines. This is being done more by "colored" breeders than most people that breed gray gliders. More often than not, I see people who throw two gliders together that were purchased from pet stores, rehomed or rescued, that "just want to experience joeys". They do this without knowing any background on the gliders. This is not true of all people who breed gray gliders, but it is done by many. Any animal that you do not know the lineage and family health history and temperment of should not be bred, regardless of color!

If you are happy with your gray gliders than do not buy any other color. There is no reason to do so other than personal preference. Personality, temperment, etc., are not based on fur color. Myself, I am captivated by mosaics. I think they are gorgeous. It is just a person preference, but one that I am entitled to.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338197
07/13/07 06:29 PM
07/13/07 06:29 PM
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St. Charles, IL
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Originally Posted By: MrsKing

If you handed a blind person 2 gliders, one that was 'mosaic' and one that was standard grey, and you asked the person which one they would pay more for, I'm sure they could not honestly answer you because to them, they are the same. It shouldn't be any different to anyone else.


But if you handed a person who wasnt blind two gliders, one leu, one standard grey, almost certainly they would pick the leu! I dont think it's that bad that people want leus. ALL of us want one. Dont deny it =P.

I think what gets under our skin the most with newbies is that they dont know how rare they are, and they think they can just get one. That annoys me a tad, personally =D


Connor
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: CD_Hanratty] #338201
07/13/07 06:45 PM
07/13/07 06:45 PM
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Sherman, Texas
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Its the "hype" I don't like. Not necessarily the good breeders that ARE breeding for colors. I am not saying the other colors aren't beautiful, I do love the mosiacs, but my grey gliders are JUST as good and worth JUST as much. In my opinion.


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: MizValorie] #338202
07/13/07 06:46 PM
07/13/07 06:46 PM
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Sherman, Texas
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Just as my corgi, who was a stray, is worth just as much as my tea cup poodle.


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338212
07/13/07 06:52 PM
07/13/07 06:52 PM

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Quote:
Why couldn't the same be said of gray gliders? There are just as many, if not more, people unethically breeding gray gliders just to make a quick buck.


Yes that is true but what I'm saying is since standard greys are way more numerous, they also cost a lot less to obtain (relatively speaking that is). Everyone wants a 'different' colored glider because they are "rare". The point I'm trying to make is that the color doesn't make the glider and I don't see how people can justify spending such a great deal of money (400-->2,500!?) on something as pointless as COLOR. It seems incredibly rediculous.

Quote:
The thing is, most color isn't a mutation (with the exception of albinism, the t+ or t- is the inability to synthesis melanin at varying degrees). This is basic genetics. These animals carry genes for different colors, and depending on how they pair up, different aspects will be expressed.


I understand that color variation occurs naturally in ANY species of life. But, the thing is, the species originally starts with ONLY one color. This is how there is a dominant gene to begin with. Some individuals' genes 'mutate' over time (while some don't) to form other colors/patterns/variations [recessive traits] which then become part of the animals genetic makeup as it is passed down to offspring. If two gliders possessing these recessive traits mate, there is a slight chance that one of them will physically show the recessive trait and the others will carry it as a "het".

Quote:
There are many animals, such as hedgehogs, where albinism is dominant, very common, and have no health problems. Others include rats and mice.
If any line has health problems, it's not due to the color, but to the line itself (see poor breeding).


I highly doubt if I were in "hedgehog country" I would see little white hedgies with their beady red eyes running around everywhere. Maybe in captivity those are much more frequent, but albinism is not a dominant trait in nature by any means.

And if you're referring to the albino rats & mice, those poor things have been inbred so much it's disgusting- and mainly developed for laboratory use. Many of them have genetic health issues and are short lived. When feeding our python, I felt so bad for the mice I kept two and they died within two months. One developed a huge tumor and the other convulsed before it died. They were "hoppers" when I got them, still young. How many albino mice do you see outdoors running wild? The people have FORCED them to look that way...


I don't mean to attack you or start a fight, I just feel very strongly about certain things- sorry.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338237
07/13/07 07:27 PM
07/13/07 07:27 PM
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St. Charles, IL
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While it is true that color and personality have nothing to do with each other, I think the color is for asthetic purposes, not because people want a "rare" glider. Sooner or later, leus are going to be just as common as greys, and people will still want them just as badly.

Asthetics play an important part to people. There are pets out there that are for asthetic purposes only. I have a few. Why have a grey glider when you could have a white one that's just as friendly? So why are they so expensive? Because people will pay for them!

Think of it this way, MrsKing... If you had producing leus, how much would you sell the joeys for?

Last edited by CD_Hanratty; 07/13/07 08:00 PM.

Connor
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: CD_Hanratty] #338273
07/13/07 08:25 PM
07/13/07 08:25 PM

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*prepares for attack!* I personally think the leu's (they are the solid white with black eyes, right?) are kinda creepy looking! They are cute in their own respect, but I would pick a gray one any day, not just for cost, but for personal reason. I guess we all like what we like smile Like i mentioned earlier though, if I saw a white one with a black stripe, I would have to buy it smile

Daniel

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: CD_Hanratty] #338275
07/13/07 08:29 PM
07/13/07 08:29 PM

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Dominant and recessive traits aren't a mutation. There are genes in humans that produce certain eye color or hair color. Just because someone has blonde hair or green eyes, doesn't make one a mutation of the other. There's not an "original" color, and even if there was, who is to say it was even gray in gliders? I can go back to the moth example, if you'd like. Environmental changes caused the less dominant coloring to become more dominant due to the moth's ability to camouflage itself from predators. They are the same species, the same moth, and can come from the same batch of moth eggs (or however they reproduce!) from the same parent moths. That's the same reason you don't often see white mice or hedgies running around. Why? They are easier to spot, more likely to get eaten, and therefore, less likely to pass on their genes.
Feeder mice or rats are hardly a good example for albinism vs. health. The animals are only bred for one thing--to feed your other pets. And as sad as it sounds, they aren't bred to live some extensive life, just as food. On the other hand, go to an actual mouse or rat breeder, and you'll find excellent, pet health/quality animals.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338292
07/13/07 08:55 PM
07/13/07 08:55 PM
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I thought that most of these things are prevelant in the wild. Like the white tip, according to Australia Zoo:

Quote:
The Squirrel Glider is noticeably larger than the Sugar Glider and does not have a white tip on the end of its tail.


So, does that mean that the Sugar Glider is supposed to have the white tip naturally? If so, why don't ours have those most of the time with all gray gliders being more rare?

And, the ones that I see in pictures of them in the wild are typically more brown and lighter. Is that diet or genetics? And, is there a difference between Tansanian, Austrailian, and New Zealand gliders? Maybe we should all take a trip to Australia and go see them?! I'm up for that.

I can see why the leu's and albinos aren't around much in the wild because that would make them easy prey. But, wouldn't cinnies? I really want to learn more about this and think it is interesting!


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Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: PocketPrincess] #338350
07/13/07 10:09 PM
07/13/07 10:09 PM

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Originally Posted By: PocketPrincess

And, the ones that I see in pictures of them in the wild are typically more brown and lighter. Is that diet or genetics? And, is there a difference between Tansanian, Austrailian, and New Zealand gliders? Maybe we should all take a trip to Australia and go see them?! I'm up for that.

Gliders actually follow one of those biology rules (I honestly can't for the life of me remember what it's called). Basically, how close they are to the equator effects both size and color. In the case of gliders, I believe the browner ones are from the northern regions, and they are grayer as you go south.
There are a lot of differences we see in gliders--not just color. Size varies considerably--I've heard of healthy 60-70 gram gliders, and equally healthy, not overweight 160 gram gliders. And still others have a more pointed face vs. a rounded face.
In the end, a sugar glider is a sugar glider--no matter what the color, size, shape, etc. is. I know there was a member from Australia with them (this board or another, can't remember) and there were several comments on how noticeably different it looked compared to the gliders here.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338379
07/13/07 11:13 PM
07/13/07 11:13 PM
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Lol, I just want a mosaic or a leu because for one thing, I like the color. Isn't that why people breed them? For their color... Personality is always the first thing to think about, but when I got my two gliders I knew nothing of their personality and they are plenty sweet. They aren't bonded to me yet, but they are very sweet. Alot sweeter than Nimbus was right off the bat. What a biter. (:

And I really wouldn't care if the glider was infertile because I want it for a pet, not for breeding.

On the other hand, if the glider had a bunch of health problems, no way would I buy it. I'm already about a thousand bucks in the hole from my previous escapades plus tomorrow's appointment.

But I am thinking about a new glider... When I have a little more money.
If anything, I'll get a real nice one for my little sister and just visit... Alot. (:

I thought that tan coats meant bad diet in grey gliders?


Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338512
07/14/07 02:34 AM
07/14/07 02:34 AM

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Originally Posted By: aproductof
Environmental changes caused the less dominant coloring to become more dominant due to the moth's ability to camouflage itself from predators. They are the same species, the same moth, and can come from the same batch of moth eggs (or however they reproduce!) from the same parent moths.


I understand what you are saying but just because the majority of an isolated group appears a certain way, it still does not make it the dominant gene. Albinos are homozygous RECESSIVE becuase in their case, each parent had to carry the gene for it and it was doubled by chance. You could have an entire group of albinos and a single brown colored mouse, but the brown is still the dominant gene color over the albino. It just happens that the circumstances favored something other than the dominant. Dominant is dominant... you can't change it.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338555
07/14/07 08:26 AM
07/14/07 08:26 AM

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In that case, by dominate, I was meaning it as dominant coloring, not the gene itself. Perhaps I should have said predominant color?
In any case, no matter what, it doesn't make the recessive or dominant genes any less natural. Humans and animals can and do carry both. There are cases when the recessive gene tends to be more dominant--because it is seen more often, therefore passed on more often. That is what my example was intended to show. If Australia were snow covered, leus would probably be the dominant coloring. Just because that coloring is recessive, doesn't mean that there couldn't be tons of them. More leus would survive predation, meaning more leus would reproduce, therefore creating more leu offspring. Would we then be saying that breeding for gray gliders is unnatural? Even if done selectively?

Just wanted to add--unfortunately I'm leaving in a short while for the weekend, though, I'm curious to see what develops...

Last edited by aproductof; 07/14/07 08:31 AM.
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #338579
07/14/07 10:06 AM
07/14/07 10:06 AM
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This is very interesting guys. Thank you for your input.


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: MizValorie] #338623
07/14/07 12:13 PM
07/14/07 12:13 PM

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I completely agree with what you said about the leu's if something like that ever happened in Australia as an example. It only makes sense that the white color would become the majority of the population of gliders because the environment would favor it in that circumstance. It still doesn't make it a dominant color though becuase if one was ever crossed with a standard gray there is only a very small chance it would come out leu since the grey gene is so much more overpowering.


Sometimes the recessive colors are more numerous in the environment but I just want people to realize, just because there COULD be more of them, it still doesn't make them the dominant color gene for the species.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #342766
07/19/07 01:20 PM
07/19/07 01:20 PM

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Hmmmmmm.... I just thought I'd weigh in on the whole "why would someone pay more for a rare color" issue.

I play with my babies nightly, yes. But I get the bulk of my joy from pulling the chair from my armoire over to their enclosure and just watching them. The striking colors of the rare ones grab our attention, don't they? The white, cream, the rings and patches! They really call out "look at me"! To be able to have such a beauty in the mix to watch nightly sure would be a treat!

Like putting a rare bird in an aviary. Why would you make such a purchase??? For your personal enjoyment of course! Isn't that why people buy pets? It sounds selfish, but Man is by nature a selfish being. We buy "things" be them living or not for our own personal entertainment and satisfaction. We acquire stuff that makes us feel good.

A rare glider would make some people feel good.

I would feel very good watching one play! As it is I feel very warm and fuzzy watching my guys now, a rare glider would add some butterflies to my tummy!


Just my 2 cents.

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ] #342769
07/19/07 01:31 PM
07/19/07 01:31 PM

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Originally Posted By: MrsKing
Sometimes the recessive colors are more numerous in the environment but I just want people to realize, just because there COULD be more of them, it still doesn't make them the dominant color gene for the species.

I'm not saying it changes the dominance of the gene, I was referring the most likely seen color. If there are more recessive animals, then the recessive color is more likely to be passed on making it the more likely to be seen color --or the more predominant color in the area.

In any case, the animal has no health issues, so who cares if they are bred? I would hope even breeders of classic grays were selective in how they bred (ie. temperament). But if someone wants to pay more for a different color glider, that's entirely up to them. But I think, as these colors become more and more widely seen, the prices go down dramatically. Look at the price of a regular gray glider when they first entered the pet world (I believe it was in the thousands). And I'm sure any WF breeder, or long time glider owner can tell you that as there have become more and more WF's, the price has gone down drastically. I've seen a gray for $150 to 200, and a WF as low as $200 to 250. So is it really paying THAT much more?

Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: CD_Hanratty] #342796
07/19/07 02:23 PM
07/19/07 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: CD_Hanratty
I dont think it's that bad that people want leus. ALL of us want one. Dont deny it =P.


Sorry Connor, but this annoys me. grin The only color, other than grey, I would ever want is a WF. Too much risks of line breeding in the beginning for me to be comfortable with a leu - plus, to be honest, I don't think they are cute - kinda bland... smile And the albinos are just creepy! shakehead

Ethical breeders NOW are careful to document and breed out the line to prevent inbreeding, but what about when they first showed up? You cannot tell me FF ranch was careful about breeding!

I just can't see spending that much money for a 'color.' And, what happens when you breed for a color and the baby isn't that color? (Actually, that is not an issue with the breeders here! Thank God!) But less ethical breeders who see dollar signs with colors? or mill breeders who are starting to get into colors too?

BTW - just wanted to add - I do understand why people buy these gliders, but not everyone wants one! That is a personal choice. AND, if they are buying from good breeders, go for it! For example - my friend just spent several hundred dollars for an AKC dog from a good breeder. All mine are pound puppies - I spent $8. Her dog is cute, glad she is happy, but I wouldn't spend that much!

Last edited by Mel2mdl; 07/19/07 02:25 PM. Reason: add more

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Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Mel2mdl] #343154
07/19/07 10:02 PM
07/19/07 10:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,874
St. Charles, IL
CD_Hanratty Offline
Glider Slave
CD_Hanratty  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,874
St. Charles, IL
[quote]I dont think it's that bad that people want leus. ALL of us want one. Dont deny it =P. [/i]

I said that so it would have an effect on the people it applies to. If I said "Most people want a colored glider" it wouldnt have had the same effect- but I understand it's not true.

I dont think we should be concerned with what happens to joeys that come out the wrong color... I think we should be concerned about unethical breeders as a whole. I personally believe that saying "What happens when an unethical breeder breeds for a certain color & the color comes out wrong?" is like saying "There's a puppy in a puppy mill with a broken leg, what's going to happen to it?"

What's going to happen to the REST of the puppies and gliders? Shouldnt we care about them, too?

I think its wrong to take advantage of expensive colors-- I agree with you there.


Connor
Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Mel2mdl] #343357
07/20/07 05:36 AM
07/20/07 05:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Hmmmm. How do you suppose the White Face Blonde was bred when the color first popped up since they did not come from the wild with the beautiful all White Face? They were inbred and then selectively linebred. roflmao

While breeding for color is selective breeding... one has to inbreed a new variation due to the genetic gene pool being so small. As the gene pool broadens... the lines then are line bred to distant relatives along with the normal wild color of gray/brown. Eventually it is not necessary to line breed due to a very large genetic gene pool for that variation.

As to the Leucistic genetic gene pool having genetic problems due to inbreeding and then line breeding... I am not aware of any. Breeding though is a little slower due to the Leucistic gene being Recessive as both parents must be gene carriers for this variation. Thus... it will take much longer to broaden the genetic pool than it did with the WF Blonde as only one parent needed to be a gene carrier for the White Face Blonde with the Standard Gray glider bred to it.

It will be the future generation of "Good breeders" who do selective breeding along with good record keeping who will determine wither or not the Leucistic variation or any other color variation including the Beautiful Standard Gray Glider remains Healthy. thumb


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