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Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352764
08/02/07 04:52 PM
08/02/07 04:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
I'm not saying there's something wrong with it. My point is she seems to think she has to add more than 3 gliders (to that particular cage/group) and I don't understand why. My point is that the gliders can be perfectly happy as just 3, so that is not a reason that she "has" to breed. It is a reason why she "wants" to breed.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352770
08/02/07 04:56 PM
08/02/07 04:56 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



?????

I don't know... I have a trio, they are very happy... The breeding just happened. everyone was VERY ok with it, there was no forced behaviors. I can't reverse it. It took place the second night! Yikes! Its a done deal!

Would I have let them have breed... I may have. I had been going back and forth between the idea of fixing him. The choice was made for me rather QUICKLY! lol

Given the outcome here, I'm really ok with it.

If I were in the situation to provide a home for a rescue would I? IN A HEARTBEAT! Especially because of where I live! I'm sure gliders here perish dure to a lack of avalible care and information. The fear of getting "caught" = neglect. I would step up in a second! Am I prepared if my babies turn on eachother? YES! I have a second cage that is the SAME model as the one they are in now, its BIG! They would not be downsizing their living condition at all if I had to seperate them. I am prepared! If I filled that cage, I would order another! I will always hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.

I don't NEED to breed my girls. They chose to breed themselves. I didn't hold them down. They met my male, groomed the heck out of him and invited them into their tight bond. Then they tempted him with soft hissing and more grooming! lol It was all very natural.

I may chase down their pedigrees someday just for fun... but I really don't need them.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352772
08/02/07 04:58 PM
08/02/07 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Originally Posted By: Kathryn

Now, I have a boy from Texas, and two girls from AZ. Totally dif colors. What are the odds that they are related??? I'm putting my money on not at all, their facial structures are different.


I am still reading to catch up. (wow! Go to a doctor's appointment and you miss alot around here!) But I wanted to comment on this quote, Kathryn.

I was recently looking into purchasing 2 gliders. One is in Illinois, one is in Virginia. By studying their pedigrees, I found out the male's Grandfather was the Female's Father - obviously too closely related to breed.

Just because gliders are from different states and look different doesn't mean they aren't related!


I'm posting this again, because this thread is moving so fast, and I think it is important.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352774
08/02/07 05:01 PM
08/02/07 05:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
lol...you're right. It's moving VERY fast. I went to the bathroom and came back to 2 new posts.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352777
08/02/07 05:03 PM
08/02/07 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Carrie T  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
That is fine if thats what she wants to do. You would have a hard time coming in to my home and telling me I shoudn't breed two animals I just bought and paid for. Like I said I did the same thing years ago. I don't feel I've made any mistakes. I've given people the opportunity to own some real sweet babies. I've watched the joy as they held their new babies. Yes that is selfish on my part but I enjoyed every bit of it. I also cried like a baby going home and leaving the baby behind. This person wants to have babies and keep them. I so wish I had done that. Sorry to all who have my babies and love them. I know they are in very capable and loving hands. heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352782
08/02/07 05:06 PM
08/02/07 05:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
I'm not saying it's wrong to have joeys. I'm saying it's wrong to chance a joeys health by not knowing the background. I'm glad that your gliders are all healthy, but what if it had turned out that they were closely related and your joeys had health problems? That is a very possible outcome to situations like these.

Also, I don't buy my animals to be breeders, but to be loved. They don't need to have joeys to be "worth" the money I paid for them. They just need to be who they are.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352783
08/02/07 05:07 PM
08/02/07 05:07 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Oh... and the idea of having more than 3 comes from my plans to build a rather large enclosure. Hubby is a General Contractor and is pretty handy. He's been building custom homes for over 20 years now and has done some amazing work! he is going to build me a split enclosure complete with sitting benches and double door entries... the works. I'm pretty excited! It will be zoo quality, but indoors. And it will have full spectrum lighting recessed in the ceiling for the plants, so they can thrive indoors.

I think that such a setup would be overkill for 3 gliders??? In theory it should be large enough for "personalities" to work themselves out. But I'll still have to maintain cages outside the enclosure I'm sure.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352787
08/02/07 05:10 PM
08/02/07 05:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Carrie T  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Can my babies come play with your's roflmao roflmao roflmao

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352788
08/02/07 05:11 PM
08/02/07 05:11 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: princessmegi

Also, I don't buy my animals to be breeders, but to be loved. They don't need to have joeys to be "worth" the money I paid for them. They just need to be who they are.


I didn't buy mine to breed.... I think that is something all together different.

They are worth a thousand times what I paid for them... Stand alone as they are.


Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352789
08/02/07 05:12 PM
08/02/07 05:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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MizValorie  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
Originally Posted By: Kathryn
Oh... and the idea of having more than 3 comes from my plans to build a rather large enclosure. Hubby is a General Contractor and is pretty handy. He's been building custom homes for over 20 years now and has done some amazing work! he is going to build me a split enclosure complete with sitting benches and double door entries... the works. I'm pretty excited! It will be zoo quality, but indoors. And it will have full spectrum lighting recessed in the ceiling for the plants, so they can thrive indoors.

I think that such a setup would be overkill for 3 gliders??? In theory it should be large enough for "personalities" to work themselves out. But I'll still have to maintain cages outside the enclosure I'm sure.


So when you come back to texas...your gonna bring him right? I NEEEEEEDDDDDD one of those!!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352794
08/02/07 05:15 PM
08/02/07 05:15 PM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



so heres kind of a random question.. I've been out of this topic for some time and it definitely as evolved..


So you dont neuter, and your mom and dad glider have babies.. Two boys! Then those boys decided NATURALLY to breed with their mom..

wait, thats NOT natural.. the natural thing that happens in the wild is that the new babies either leave the colony and find another colony OR pair up with an unrelated glider in the colony.. there is NOTHING natural about breeding in captivity because they spectrum of genetics isn't as big.. in the wild, gliders leave one colony and join another not because they hated their family, but because its something that is SUPPOSED to happed to PREVENT inbreeding.. if the gliders had a choice in the wild, they would NOT have chosen to mate with a close relative..

And i agree with the person who was talking about preserving the species in the wild, and the real LACK of needing more breeders..

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352795
08/02/07 05:15 PM
08/02/07 05:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Hey now I was first tounge grin

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352798
08/02/07 05:17 PM
08/02/07 05:17 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



My husband! lol

Everyone needs one of him! He is awesome!!! You should have seen the outdoor enclosure he built for my friends Bengals! It was half a football field! Had the catch double door, hard wood frame heavy wire, and the shelves! The hard wood knarly tree stumps and thick branch climbing structures! It was nicer than any zoo enclosure I had ever seen!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352801
08/02/07 05:19 PM
08/02/07 05:19 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
so heres kind of a random question.. I've been out of this topic for some time and it definitely as evolved..


So you dont neuter, and your mom and dad glider have babies.. Two boys! Then those boys decided NATURALLY to breed with their mom..

wait, thats NOT natural.. the natural thing that happens in the wild is that the new babies either leave the colony and find another colony OR pair up with an unrelated glider in the colony.. there is NOTHING natural about breeding in captivity because they spectrum of genetics isn't as big.. in the wild, gliders leave one colony and join another not because they hated their family, but because its something that is SUPPOSED to happed to PREVENT inbreeding.. if the gliders had a choice in the wild, they would NOT have chosen to mate with a close relative..

And i agree with the person who was talking about preserving the species in the wild, and the real LACK of needing more breeders..


True, true!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352802
08/02/07 05:19 PM
08/02/07 05:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict
MizValorie  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
nuh uh I helped her with wormies!! I get him first!! LOL


off topic..did you get em kathryn?


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352804
08/02/07 05:22 PM
08/02/07 05:22 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Yep... LIVE Hotter than heck! But LIVE!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352806
08/02/07 05:24 PM
08/02/07 05:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
No fair, just No fair cry I'll bet I'm a better Mash fan than you though wink

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352807
08/02/07 05:24 PM
08/02/07 05:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict
MizValorie  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
good good dont forget to feed em for a few days!! they will get nice and plump


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352808
08/02/07 05:25 PM
08/02/07 05:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict
MizValorie  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
lol probably Carrie!!!!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352810
08/02/07 05:28 PM
08/02/07 05:28 PM

K
Kali_Goddess
Unregistered
Kali_Goddess
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: LissaJane

Now I respect everyone's right to choose what they like and what they do. I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter. That is all. I may not agree, but I truly do support you in your own personal freedom and choices to do as you will with your beloved animals. I just wanted to state how I feel about and how I wish things could and should be done. But, by no means do I want to force anyone to follow my beliefs. I really just wanted to state them.


Of course! Same here. I just find it interesting how many people may have actually put more research and thought into breeding their gliders than they may have into having their own families. Not picking on anyone in particular, mind you - just a thought that occurred to me. I'm in my early 30's and many of my girlfriends are starting (or already have) families. When I ask them why, they don't often have an answer. According to them "it's just what you do". If I gave that reason for breeding my glider I'd be hunted down and flogged. tounge

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #352812
08/02/07 05:31 PM
08/02/07 05:31 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms

But then what you are saying is no gliders in captivity would ever have joeys.


Again, this is putting words into my mouth. That is absolutely NOT what I am saying. What I am saying is if you don't plan to breed, don't mix males and females. That's ALL I'm saying. And to the people saying it's close to impossible for two adult males of different lineage to cohabitate peacefully, positively not true. I know *many* cases where adult males have successfully been introduced to one another.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352817
08/02/07 05:40 PM
08/02/07 05:40 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Do you breed? If you do, then why can't she?

(This is meant as a rhetorical question to EVERYONE who breeds, not to anyone in particular)

Last edited by HelloSugar; 08/02/07 05:47 PM. Reason: Additional info
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352819
08/02/07 05:41 PM
08/02/07 05:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Quote:
And to the people saying it's close to impossible for two adult males of different lineage to cohabitate peacefully, positively not true. I know *many* cases where adult males have successfully been introduced to one another.


Liniage has absolutly nothing to do with it. I do believe some males can coexist without being neutered but those guys are far and few between in my experience. I also want to know what part of natural forcing females to cohabitate with females and males to cohabitate with males is. Boarding school comes to mind.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352821
08/02/07 05:44 PM
08/02/07 05:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
LOL Princess does not breed LOL

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352826
08/02/07 05:48 PM
08/02/07 05:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Originally Posted By: Carrie T
LOL Princess does not breed LOL



Hey, what'd I miss??? Knew I should have never left work to drive home...darn it.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352828
08/02/07 05:49 PM
08/02/07 05:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Nevermind...it's there now...



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352829
08/02/07 05:50 PM
08/02/07 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
No, I don't breed. Nor will I ever. But if I did breed, it would be 2 healthy gliders who came to me as joeys that I had extensive background on.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352832
08/02/07 05:52 PM
08/02/07 05:52 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Originally Posted By: Carrie T
I also want to know what part of natural forcing females to cohabitate with females and males to cohabitate with males is.


Perhaps it isn't natural, but certainly a better form of population control than cutting into a living creature's flesh and removing a natural part of it's body. What right do we have to do that? In my opinion, there is no acceptable answer to that.

Like I said, I won't mutilate my pets. And though I prefer not to nueter, I will also never be a mill breeder or even a large scale breeder.

Last edited by HelloSugar; 08/02/07 06:05 PM. Reason: Add more thoughts
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352837
08/02/07 05:57 PM
08/02/07 05:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
You know, I have to say, HelloSugar, I'm fascinated by your "anti-neutering" stance.

I've met or encountered MANY people who don't neuter. In my experience, they have made that choice due to either anthropomorphizing their animals, or due to ignorance.

Your stance seems to be neither. Although I disagree, I really respect your views against neutering.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352844
08/02/07 06:04 PM
08/02/07 06:04 PM

A
aproductof
Unregistered
aproductof
Unregistered
A



Actually, in the latest procedures for neutering, NOTHING is removed. They are just tied off, and everything is put back. Human men have a similar procedure done with no ill effects. I think hormonal means would be out of the question. I recently heard of a means of sterilizing feral cats, but I've not heard of sterilization in gliders. And you obviously can't use any random human forms of contraception!

In any case, if you want to go back to nature, then owning gliders period isn't natural. Simulating an ideal environment for raising joeys year round isn't natural. Saving a rejected joey, unnatural. So by keeping them in captivity, they breed more than they would naturally. What should be done with all the joeys if no one neutered? Or puppies? Or kittens? We choose to have these animals, we should at least be responsible. All those "extra" animals just end up homeless, in shelters, starved, put down, etc. Is that any better of a situation for them? In nature, they have a means of population control--predation, food supply, etc. I think I'll chance tying the boys off.

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