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Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37909
03/04/05 02:11 AM
03/04/05 02:11 AM

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I certainly can't find any info on why NOT though I would like to know if the calcium content varies much or any thing else I can find out, I haven't had a whole lot of luck yet, but found a few good leads.

Mikey you crack me up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Oh and yippee!! My copy of "marsupial nutrition" is waiting for me at the library, Mine didnt have it but they got it in only 1 day for me!!

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37910
03/04/05 07:03 AM
03/04/05 07:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
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Charlie H Offline
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Big Ern, I have been doing some reading and I can see where Acacia Gum could have its merits in a sugar glider diet. I think it will take some tweaking to figure how much and in what porpotions it should be included to be most beneficial. This is such a gray area since the studies are on wild glider diets. It will have to be adapted to a captive glider diet. But from the studies it appears that you could increase the percentage you are useing by quiet a bit. But that is just guessing based on the Australian research. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37911
03/04/05 12:25 PM
03/04/05 12:25 PM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> My head hurts!!! Are you some kind of wisened sage Mikey?? I ordered a copy of Marsupial Nutrition from Amazon today, i'm sure it will be very interesting, I look forward to reading it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ozzi] #37912
03/04/05 02:00 PM
03/04/05 02:00 PM

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Mikey - you are hilarious! I was sitting here laughing while reading your post and I am at work. Thanks for the great fun! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Big_Ern - I am very interested in finding out as much as I can about your glider diet and this post is very helpful but I have a couple of questions. You stated that you have limited the amount of the acacia gum included in your diet due to the cost of the gum. What changes would you make if the cost were less or the senegal gum was found to be equal in values or safe to use?
Also Charlie H did have a good question as well in that much more should be used than what you currently have.
Just curious and seriously considering switching to your diet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Thanks
Jennifer

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37913
03/04/05 04:48 PM
03/04/05 04:48 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You stated that you have limited the amount of the acacia gum included in your diet due to the cost of the gum. What changes would you make if the cost were less or the senegal gum was found to be equal in values or safe to use?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Well I know I'd definitely use more if it were cheaper. I chose the volume I did because of cost considerations, and also because I didn't want to just jump into feeding gum at a large volume without knowing in full the statistics and principles behind it. I know much more now than I did a year ago about the gum. Also, I feel that using it at the current rate is a good stepping stone towards feeling out if feeding the gum at an increased rate will yield positive results, which I'd imagine it should, but I am not certain.

There is one issue of palatability to consider as acacia gum has no taste and it'd have to be balanced out with some good tasting stuff to get gliders into eating it, if it were to be fed at a much higher volume. One thing I will be working on is something where the gum would be used in a larger proportion and some other things would be replaced. The volume in which they consume it in the wild will have to be used as a point of reference. It is said that the gum accounts for 40% of their dietary intake. Whether that is possible to do cost wise and taste wise remains to be seen, but I'm sure it could be worked out. It's one thing I'd like to explore and do the math on. One thing that has to be kept in mind is that the gum they consume in the wild is hydrated and not powdered so since we are using powdered gum, some mathematical accommodations will have to be made. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the Acacia Senegal gum, I think that it would be great if it was proven 100% safe to be used for gliders, as far as I have seen I see no reason that it should be considered unsafe. One thing I am hoping is that this thread will get some people out and looking for info that speaks for or against it's use so we can either stamp it good or bad.

Soooo....anyone with time on their hands? Check it out! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

It is half the price and there are many more options as far as suppliers. There are suppliers who supply organic gum as well and the gum could be purchased in bulk which could lower the cost even more.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37914
03/04/05 05:08 PM
03/04/05 05:08 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Also, I feel that using it at the current rate is a good stepping stone towards feeling out if feeding the gum at an increased rate will yield positive results....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Seems to me that the best(and perhaps only) way to "feel out" whether feeding gum has a positive result is to feed your mix to a group of gliders for several years and then feed the same mix without the gum to another group and see what differences, if any, can be discerned between the two groups?? I am wondering if you have such a testing process in place?? [/]

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37915
03/04/05 05:32 PM
03/04/05 05:32 PM

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lol, no, as of yet I have no testing of that sort in progress.

I think that you are for the most part correct in stating that in order to discern any statistical differences then one would be best off doing a controlled study over a period of years...but I also feel that it is very possible to see more immediate results.

Do you feel that there would be no point in exploring the use of acacia gum at a larger rate unless one were able to perform a controlled study? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37916
03/05/05 03:18 AM
03/05/05 03:18 AM

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[:"blue"] I/we have gotten into a little trouble in the past by taking the same word to mean different things. Give me a better idea of what you mean by "explore" and I will let you know what I think.

I'm not philosophically opposed to feeding Acacia gum or gum Arabic for that matter, just like to see that any dietary experimentation is done in a reasonably disciplined fashion as opposed to the "shotgun" approach used by some. There are just too many impressionable people in the glider community.....mostly new and relatively uneducated(glider-wise)..... who will take almost anything they read on the Internet as gospel and adopt the idea whether it is good or not. If for no other reason than that, it behooves all of us to rigorously question all new diets that are presented here to make sure there are not any apparent problems as best we can determine at our level of learning. Obviously, you have put a considerable amount of time and effort into investigating alternative diets; but other experimenters might not be so conscientious.

For the foreseeable future, in my judgment, experimentation/research with captive glider diets is going to have to be carried out by the members of the glider community. It probably isn't reasonable to expect that much work is going to be done by the by the scientific community. It was like pulling teeth to accumulate a small fund to finance the GC study and we are still waiting on the detailed results of that study. I hope that folks who choose to experiment with glider diets do in a studied and disciplined fashion and keep their work out of the realm of the general community until it has been reasonably well proven.

And just thinking out loud, if I were to get into the arena of diet experimentation, one of the first things I would do is make some serious connections with folks in the glider homeland.....Australia(not exactly true).....and find out a little more about what they knew about maintaining healthy captive gliders.

BTW, anyone ever give any consideration to the fact that out gliders don't come from Australia; but rather from the nearby islands to the North. Wonder if the the wild Indonesian glider has a diet similar to the Australian glider. Point of fact....it has been suggested that wild Australian glider diets are balanced relative to calcium because the plants they subsist on grow in high calcium soils. Indonesian gliders live on islands that are primarily volcanic in origin and their soils are unlikely to be nearly so high in calcium. I can't state that to an absolute certainty; but it seems to me to be an interesting question??? [/]

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37917
03/05/05 04:51 AM
03/05/05 04:51 AM

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NICE!

Well, I've already been underway for some time attempting to research just that, Randy, and I must say that I'm still somewhat at a dead-end with it.

For one thing, I can't seem to get a definite answer as to exact Indonesian locations where gliders have been obtained from (or even exist).

Anyway, from the several locations that were rather off-handedly mentioned by some sources (with no additional in-depth info provided), I've come up with four likely locations...

In Sumatra there exist some commercial forest plantations of Acacia crassicarpa (as well as others but this species is widely used there) as well as several Eucalypt species, and they are used as a resource for the pulp industry in the region. The reason these species have been chosen is because they are quick growers and create great economy for the region and inhabitants. Over 40 000 ha of plantation have been established there primarily on highly organic soils!

In Borneo, in the Kalimantan rainforest, similar forest plantations of various eucalypt and acacia species have been established for the same industrial purposes.

I am guessing (yes, I said "guessing" because it's highly likely) that on the island of Sulawesi, where several marsupials may be found, including the ever notorious couscous, Petaurus breviceps may be found in their thick rainforests, which also have several eucalpyt and acacia species established there, although, there are some sources that claim that their marsupial species list is quite short and perhaps may not include gliders (or phalangeroids for that matter!).

Anyway, I expect that the North American gliders have likely originated from wild populations from any, some, or all of these three island regions, but I can't seem to find any specific information as to the wild gliders' known homelands.

Furthermore, what's even more interesting is that apparently (relating to Randy's concern), these three locations (all in Western Indonesia) have soils that happen to be quite low in pH (i.e. very acidic) and also tend to be quite deficient in calcium and phosphorus, as well as other minerals. Actually, poor soil conditions is a growing concern for the agricultural industry in Indonesia. So, I'd expect the concept of calcium-rich soils and thus calcium rich acacia & eucalypt tissues in these regions wouldn't be likely (unless ofcourse efficiently absorbing and storing calcium in vascular tissues is an innate eucalypt/acacia biological trait, which isn't that unlikely a possibility, seeing as several tubers for instance that grow in the area like sweet potato, do just that, i.e. store calcium... anyway in regards to eucalyptus and acacia doing that, that's speculation right now).

Anyway, should the gliders be from Papua New Guinea (fourth possible location), where several species of Eucalyptus and Acacia also grow, located North of Australia, the soil conditions, also quite low in pH, also tend to be deficient in calcium, phosphorus, and other minerals. So I'm not too sure that the case of having Calcium-rich soils would apply there either...

Interesting, no..? Any input? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37918
03/05/05 06:20 AM
03/05/05 06:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Wallis Texas
I have to agree with Randy about just anyone jumping on the wagon and useing Big Ern's diet. As BE stated his diet is in the developing stages. Apparently he has done and is still doing research on it's effects.

I can't help but wonder about the gliders reluctance to eat the powdered acacia gum once water is added back to it. If they use it as 40% of their diet in the wild one would think that they would readily eat it. Maybe the dehydration alters the flavor and texture. I know adding water back to powdered milk does not make it a very good substitute for fresh milk.

Mikey, were you ever able to establish contact with Dr. Delaney. I think she spent some time in Indonesia or New Guinea doing a research project on sugar gliders. She may have some input on gliders diets on the islands.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37919
03/05/05 07:42 AM
03/05/05 07:42 AM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
For the foreseeable future, in my judgment, experimentation/research with captive glider diets is going to have to be carried out by the members of the glider community. It probably isn't reasonable to expect that much work is going to be done by the by the scientific community. It was like pulling teeth to accumulate a small fund to finance the GC study and we are still waiting on the detailed results of that study.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I totally agree with this. That's why I always wondered why it was suggested that diet studies be left up to the professionals. I haven't seen much work on diet come out of any "professionals"


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I hope that folks who choose to experiment with glider diets do in a studied and disciplined fashion and keep their work out of the realm of the general community until it has been reasonably well proven

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I just wonder what constitutes reasonably well proven? It has been said that Priscilla's diet is not proven(which I do not agree with), and she has many many gliders that are obviously reproducing quite well and staying healthy. I'm just not sure what we as a community expect to see?

What should we use as goals to rate whether or not a diet is successful and doing well?

Also, what are the problems that we see with current diets, and in what ways should we look to improve future diets?

As far as my dietary experimentation is concerned. I left my diet out of the public realm for a year while I used it and kept tabs on the health of my breeding gliders and their joeys. I'm not sure what has been done with other diets....

Everyone holds BML in such high esteem, but I'm curious, did it have any sort of incubation period where it was tested and evaluated prior to use?

This isn't to say that there wouldn't be any benefit from approaching diet in this way. It would be optimal to be able to test a diet in a controlled situation for a number of years before releasing it to prevent the possibility of "bad" info that might be absorbed by newbies, but I don't really think it's entirely realistic at this point. I don't know of anyone who has enough gliders or the time or the money or the patience to do such a thing and on top of it all not whisper a word to the glider community. The only people that you hear stating that their diet has undergone clinical feeding trials are people that market glider pellets, lol, so you've gotta wonder how much they really know?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I have to agree with Randy about just anyone jumping on the wagon and useing Big Ern's diet. As BE stated his diet is in the developing stages. Apparently he has done and is still doing research on it's effects.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't recall Randy ever stating this?
I'm sure it has been implied......

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
just like to see that any dietary experimentation is done in a reasonably disciplined fashion as opposed to the "shotgun" approach used by some

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Maybe this is what you may be thinking of?

lol, "shotgun approach" would probably not be an accurate way to describe the manner in which I approached my diet, so I would think that Randy wasn't referring to me...
Titling my approach a "shotgun approach" would be a bit of an unfair assumption wouldn't it? I'd like to think that I applied some "discipline" to my dietary experimentation.

I guess my open attitude towards modifying it in the future might be allowing my diet to be perceived as incomplete or poorly thought out, but that would be an assumption and also a matter of opinion since no one really(except for a few people) has the complete statistics yet!

I think it would be less wise to leave my diet infinitely static and a closed case since we don't know everything about glider diet, or do we? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" />

I also wonder how much "rigorous testing" has been performed on other diets?

I would assume there must have been a lot, or maybe not?

It seems to me like they(designers of other diets) took what worked, got some input from some people, and "modified" it to fit their situation, no?

Honestly I don't care to push people into making the decision to feed my diet.
diet is something that people have to research and decide for themselves
More importantly I just want people to think and open up to ideas that I think are very important...
But....I also don't want to watch my diet get shot down.

After one has facts and figures and science to work with, then by all means, feel free!

If I were to express my personal opinion, I'd caution against using other diets, but that wouldn't be right, because what doesn't work for me might work well, and has for other people's gliders!

I can express however that on other diets, my gliders rejected, cannibalized, and the joeys grew slow.
All of my gliders generally looked unhealthy and ate poorly.
I had to go to the vet on a few occasions to get some of my gliders treated for UTI's.
My gliders were not very active or vibrant.

Since I switched, my gliders have not rejected one joey, or had to go to the vet for any health related issues.
They're happy, and active and their joeys grow well and all is good!

I'd have a hard time imagining that this could happen if my diet were unhealthy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Bottom line, what works for some gliders does not work for all.
Research, make informed decisions, feed what you feel is right and what you feel will make your gliders most healthy, may it be BML, Brisky's, cat food, or my diet.
The decision lies with the owner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37920
03/05/05 11:52 AM
03/05/05 11:52 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> @ Big_Ern... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a side note, I can't seem to find find the exact year in which the current BML recipe was finalized and created, or even the year of its infancy. Seems I'm able find the origin dates of other diets, but can't for BML. Can someone who knows when BML was first created please answer this question for me? Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Charlie, no I wasn't able to get in touch with Dr. Delaney, seeing as I wasn't given a proper contact. I tried calling a hotline that someone gave and it didn't work. She's no where to be found <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and I've tried for a long time to find her. I'm sure she would have long answered many questions.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37921
03/06/05 07:03 AM
03/06/05 07:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Mikey, try this link:

http://www.aemv.org/w.html

Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37922
03/06/05 09:27 AM
03/06/05 09:27 AM

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Hey thanks, Charlie! I just finished shooting her an email.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37923
03/07/05 10:05 PM
03/07/05 10:05 PM

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As a side note on this one- not a sugar glider owner yet, but planning on it after we move (house for sale).. I take acacia for a stomach ailment. if this is really the same stuff that is good for the Sugar gliders, then I'll have to look into purchasing even more, but I buy 1 pound bags currently at a much lower price then I saw on the websites mentioned in this post.

Amie

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37924
03/07/05 11:56 PM
03/07/05 11:56 PM

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Do you take it for IBS?
My lady Lindsay also just started taking acacia gum that we purchased from a website HelpforIBS.com
It's been doing pretty good for her so far <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Yes, the stuff is pretty cheap there and also organic.

and <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
Welcome to GC, I used to live in Ann Arbor, my momma still does! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37925
03/08/05 03:29 AM
03/08/05 03:29 AM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I can't help but wonder about the gliders reluctance to eat the powdered acacia gum once water is added back to it. If they use it as 40% of their diet in the wild one would think that they would readily eat it. Maybe the dehydration alters the flavor and texture. I know adding water back to powdered milk does not make it a very good substitute for fresh milk.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> The answer to this I think is pretty simple. It has no taste really. Gliders in captivity are spoiled. I think as a human it would be pretty boring if everything were offered unseasoned and raw just as it were to be found in nature. I could only imagine that a glider would feel the same after eating "wonderfully flavored cuisine" and then being offered something with no flavor at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37926
03/08/05 07:10 AM
03/08/05 07:10 AM

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yes I take it for IBS.. and we love the A2 area. its been making me so much better.. and I'd like to find out more about usign the same thing as a source of calcium- to be honest both for the gliders in our future and for me.

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ] #37927
03/15/05 03:58 AM
03/15/05 03:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2,093
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Pockets Offline
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Hello Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I believe I can help you with the native locations of several of the petauridae species & sub species.

Also am absolutely elated that someone (besides myself) have woke a few people up to Ian Hume's publications - something I have tried to do here since he published
"Marsupial Nutrition" in 1999 (lol)

Big Ern <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> - many hugs to you!! You have some real lucky "Little People" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

I have done a tiny bit of research in this area for several years - but mostly keep quiet, just got tired of the arguing & most people don't seem to want to expand their thinking of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s native flora & it's importance.

Randy - my books are the 1st items I unpacked - excluding the "Little People" of course & my 20 yr young cockatoo! LOL
Welcome anytime!

Mikey - my exotic veterinarians are all from MSU & an excellent bunch I must say - sure do miss their company!
Email me!

Last edited by Pockets; 03/15/05 04:27 AM.

:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl] #37928
03/15/05 07:11 AM
03/15/05 07:11 AM

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Heyyyyy Pockets! Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad you caught this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Totally oftop, but, I need to email you and find out about your vets in E.Lansing
People are always asking me for vet references in that area, also, I'd always be interested to find more vets that know a good deal about gliders, maybe some that have a particular interest in them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl] #37929
03/15/05 10:15 AM
03/15/05 10:15 AM

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PM sent, Pockets! Truly, a breath of fresh air... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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