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Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39229
03/09/05 07:59 PM
03/09/05 07:59 PM

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OO Okay. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39230
03/09/05 08:02 PM
03/09/05 08:02 PM

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I asked brian about it he never sold any to them so maybe mike? I will ask him.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39231
03/09/05 10:42 PM
03/09/05 10:42 PM
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Leyna, I didn't want a het for cremino. I did not want to jump into breeding another color and they were tight with them, not letting any go except to Lisa and I think she got a 50% het. Lisa is her sister. I wanted them to purchase my albino het, not trade. They told me they were purchasing two more adult hets for albino. It was secretitive so I don't know if they ever got those, or what. I didn't push it cause she didn't want to say. I do know from Chris that the Cremino is another form of albanism. It is just like some albinos have pink eyes and some blue. Because it is a different form, it would not work with regular albino hets, and you would not get albino with the two. They are probably line breeding to achieve the color again.
Taupe is a brownish gray color.
The parents and creminos were brought into the house and the parents did not breed again for a long time. They were talking about putting them back out where they were the first time outside the house to see if they would breed again. I don't know if they did that.
I do know that they will not let any part of this program go. I would guess the creminos would be worth at least 8K, making even the hets thousands of dollars.


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Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39232
03/10/05 12:21 AM
03/10/05 12:21 AM

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Off-topic, I suppose, but what's with all the secrecy? It makes it hard to figure out what's going on and seems like a backward step in the process of learning about sugar glider genetics, etc.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39233
03/10/05 02:22 AM
03/10/05 02:22 AM

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lol, I hear ya!
I can see both sides of it.
It does seem counter-productive, but I also understand the desire to be the first to reproduce a special color.
Most of this stuff is uncharted territory! oooooh <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Look how many chinchilla colors there are and it all started from one color!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39234
03/10/05 03:02 AM
03/10/05 03:02 AM
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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The parents and creminos were brought into the house and the parents did not breed again for a long time. They were talking about putting them back out where they were the first time outside the house to see if they would breed again. I don't know if they did that.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I last talked to Susan on 7/13/04, and she had confirmed she put them back out.

Years ago there was also a breeder/broker/illegal importer/something rather in Florida claiming to have whites. (I don't know if they were talking about albinos or BEW's, if they even had any in the first place) Apparently there was a male that was sold out to someone who produced hets with it and the white male eventually died, leaving only hets. I as well have 3 "possible" hets from the original white, I just got them a few weeks ago from a good friend of mine who is pregnant with triplets and had to sell them. I previously haven't owned gliders for 5 years or so, but have been in close communication with several breeders and glider friends over the years.

I doubt anything will happen, and I certainly won't bring this up again, but wanted to put in the word that there might be some whites of some kind (?) popping out (And quite possibly these were the offspring of the wild caught white (?)) because I don't know who all else would have offspring from this original broker or if this was actually true. Only time will tell I guess.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39235
03/10/05 03:29 AM
03/10/05 03:29 AM

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It's a t+ (tyrosinase positive) albino and the correct term for the mutation is 'Caramel'. I have told this to all the 'right' people, but I feel that I'm considered a rogue of sorts by some of the higher ups 'within' the glider community, which, of course, puts me on the 'pay me no mind' list. I beleive it was "turn on, tune in, and drop out" and not "turn off, tune out, and drop in". God, I wish they could remember this. I wish they could 'get back'.
Another funny thing is,......I've pretty much given most of these people the information on genetics that they've acquired (the correct information anyway) and needed to make the things that are happening within their breeding colonies happen. Before anyone that shouldn't tries to call me out on this, remember that I keep my e-mails. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm spinning off,...........'Caramel' is a recessive trait that has been established in ball pythons, reticulated pythons, and boa constrictors for a few years now. There are several forms/degrees of albinism, but the most common is the t- (or tyrosinase negative) albino. Because tyrosinase is the enzyme that promotes black pigment, the t- albino is completely lacking dark pigment. Because tyrosinase is present in the t+ albinos, they are not entirely lacking, with the exception of the eyes for some reason, dark pigment.
In answer to your question, it had to have been two hets for caramel or a 'genesis' of genes, so to speak, within a baby produced by two normals.
Btw- Does anyone know if Susan has started selling any of their offspring? I am, proud to say, '#2' on her and Cliff's(?) list for one of the Caramels or hets. I'm not on the board too often, so if someone knows the answer to my question and wouldn't mind, send it to me at []j.thurber@sbcglobal.net[/] . I plan on contacting her soon, but if you already know, I'd appreciate the information incase it takes me some time to get in touch with her.
Thanks, Jason <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Jason Thurber; 03/10/05 01:35 PM.
Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39236
03/10/05 03:33 AM
03/10/05 03:33 AM

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Hey, that's some great technical info about the albinism.
I never knew that there was any variety in albinism.
So, yeah, they were pretty lucky to get the creamino huh?

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39237
03/10/05 03:51 AM
03/10/05 03:51 AM

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I didnt know that either LOL!!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39238
03/10/05 04:53 AM
03/10/05 04:53 AM

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Link for 'everyone'.................
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html
And it doesn't just apply to snakes. It's pretty universal.
I believe the ringtail to be a 'piebald' (I also believe that Kati has the right to sell it for however much without a bunch of righteous tripe from people that do it for a living).

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39239
03/10/05 08:34 AM
03/10/05 08:34 AM

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I'm a "lurker" here but I wanted to say, "great post Jason"! That's one of the best genetics posts regarding morphs I have seen here yet.

I get a different answer on whether the WFB trait is recessive or dominant depending on which breeder I ask. I guess the glider genetics haven't been totally figured out yet. Of course that is what makes workimg with color morphs so much fun. And frustrating sometimes too!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39240
03/10/05 08:54 AM
03/10/05 08:54 AM

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I think people try to over simplify genetics and in turn make it much more complex than it actually is... I'll use your example, WFB's. WFB's can be produced by 1 WFB/1 normal parent about 60% of the time. Since that is the case, it can't be recessive because the joeys would be normal colored. Since they are produced, at all with normal/WFB pairs and considering the high rate they are produced at (over 50%) that strongly points to WFB being a dominant trait. What people here tend to forget is that dominant doesn't nessicarily mean that it will be produced 100% of the time. It means that it will happen most of the time, which anything over 50% is most...

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39241
03/10/05 09:22 AM
03/10/05 09:22 AM

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Thanks for replying, Leyna. Can I ask then, why is it that WFB "Hets" are sold sometimes. If a trait is dominant or co dominant, there is no heterozygous form. For instance, any normal colored babies from a WFB to normal breeding would not carry the WFB trait at all, and therefore should not be sold as "hets". Right?

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39242
03/10/05 09:28 AM
03/10/05 09:28 AM

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I'll send you a PM on this one...

**Sorry, but I'm unwill to post my opinions on this subject. If you would like to know what I have to say PM me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39243
03/10/05 12:24 PM
03/10/05 12:24 PM

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Ah, I understand. How sad that you feel uncomfortable posting your opinion here :-(
I greatly appreciate the pm though :-) Thanks again.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39244
03/10/05 02:01 PM
03/10/05 02:01 PM
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Jason you crack me up! Great knowledge, as usual, you're just a wealth of information.

From what I know the ringtail's sisters had all white tails and all white feet. So the possibility of Rain producing something more than what she is showing could be a possibility as well, would you agree or not Jason?

edit: IF paired with a male who has white in his background, not a normal.

I also just wanted to make the statement that white tip is a different gene than ringtail all together, no? white tip is caused randomly it seems, ringtail and the white variations tend to go with he punnet square.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39245
03/10/05 02:20 PM
03/10/05 02:20 PM

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Actually, I there's a post right now about a WT in a nesting box in Australia. Upon closed examination, it turns out that this glider is not a a WT, but actually a ringtail. I think that ringtails are a variation that's independant of leucistics, but that the leucistic gene seems to bring out the trait. I personally have a male glider that has a very think white ring on his tail. I don't know if the WT gene and the ringtail gene are related or not, but one of his joeys has produced a WT joey (it was only a couple white hairs).

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39246
03/10/05 03:44 PM
03/10/05 03:44 PM

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I am pretty sure that the ringtail is co dominant because rains mom was paired with a champange but you need to have the leucistic gene in with it or it probally wont produce anything! But I love ringtails and one day hope to own one or two!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39247
03/10/05 03:47 PM
03/10/05 03:47 PM

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Also kati payed half of what she was asking and she only had her for 3 weeks! But it was up to her and her parents!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39248
03/10/05 04:02 PM
03/10/05 04:02 PM
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Leyna,
so you think it would be beneficial for the ringtail to be paired with a white tip?

I just got off the phone with the white tip breeder in Texas named Suzette. According to her, white tip is showing up more in the second and third generation down HET than they are in the white tip to white tip pairings. Since she seems to be the only white tip breeder who is strictly breeding white tips to white tips and hets to hets at this point, we would need to take her observations into light.

Anyway, my point is I don't think that a pairing of a white tip to a ringtail that originated from the leucistic line should be paired with a white tip...

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39249
03/10/05 04:08 PM
03/10/05 04:08 PM
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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"green"]Also kati payed half of what she was asking and she only had her for 3 weeks! But it was up to her and her parents![/]

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Who are we to judge what she resold the glider for? If there were no profit in color breeding, would large scale color breeders stop breeding? Would small scale color breeders stop breeding? Color breeding any animal that is more rare will be profitable, if it wasn't, would people be buying them to breed? I don't think so.
The person who bought her is happy with her, and in the buyer's eyes, she was worth the $2,500 + shipping she paid for her, that's all that matters.

Anyway, let's get this back on topic, sorry to have side tracked a bit!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39250
03/10/05 04:26 PM
03/10/05 04:26 PM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
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In order to bring this thread back onto the topic...it needs to continue discussing the Albinos of Flying Fur Ranch. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To discuss the Ring Tails with genetics....then a new thread needs to be opened so information is easier to find and also so it does not get lost. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39251
03/10/05 11:50 PM
03/10/05 11:50 PM

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I read that the parents of the albinos had stump-tails - were they rescues? Or did they self-mutilate?

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39252
03/10/05 11:53 PM
03/10/05 11:53 PM

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They were in a pair with different ones then their mates did something and then they didnt think they could sell the two so they put them together to breed and they got those.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39253
03/11/05 01:22 AM
03/11/05 01:22 AM
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They did actually have a little odd color to them. They looked different than the average gray glider.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39254
03/11/05 01:27 AM
03/11/05 01:27 AM

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Okay I asked they said the girls are paired up with normals. and the parents are back out side. and I think they mated but not sure I have to ask to make sure!!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39255
03/11/05 01:40 AM
03/11/05 01:40 AM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
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Hmmmm. With the parents being Albino Hets....wonder why they moved them back into the big breeding house. I would think they would have wanted to keep this special pair in the building with the special colors.

As to the tails being short...the gliders are kept in those multi cage units...so either the parents chewed the tails off short or a neighbor did. Being somewhat unsellable...the two short tailed gliders were paired together.

Anyway...this albino het pair should be close to producing color again as they have a 1 in 4 chance of producing albinos.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39256
03/11/05 01:44 AM
03/11/05 01:44 AM

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The pair wasnt breeding. so they put them in the breeding house!

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39257
03/11/05 10:51 AM
03/11/05 10:51 AM

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Eww, another glider chewed the tails off? That's disgusting! Ugh.

Re: Cremeino [Re: ] #39258
03/11/05 12:58 PM
03/11/05 12:58 PM

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I know that the two hets and then the two cremeinos have joeys ip I think the parents do or they are breeding!

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