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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46664
05/22/05 05:01 AM
05/22/05 05:01 AM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Wanted to say, if Gliders don't get lumpy jaw, would someone please explain that to my Riker, and then tell me why all his teeth are intact and in good shape at the same time?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And he has never eaten cat food or an unsoftened pellet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

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Actinomycosis is a specific type of bacterial oral infection. Your poor Riker <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" /> could very well have "lumps" i.e inflammed, swollen absceses due to bacteria, just not the type called "lumpy jaw" in marsupials. Like in humans, gum disease can manifest in a glider with healthy TEETH, and as you stated, cat food/hard food is not the cause of his condition. Dr. Johnson-Delany said there were treatments for Glider oral problems, I hope your liitle one is getting it, if not, maybe your vet can contact her at her clinic and get info about how to help the poor guy?

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46665
05/22/05 06:28 AM
05/22/05 06:28 AM
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Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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If you really think about everything you do/use everyday that is due to accurate, scientific data gleaned from experiments and studies, you'll realize there is NO LACK of solid reasons to consider the information offered by professional scientists/biologists, and not our emotions and whims.

While I would like to agree with you Marla I am afraid you are looking at one person's opinion no matter what her credentials are. Look at all of the scientific research that has been done on human weight reducing diets that do not work. And what about all the recalls we see daily on autos, appliances, toys, even processed foods, etc. All of these products are the result of 'scientific research'. The arguments back and forth about eggs, soy, milk, coral calcium to name a few. These controversies are all based on scientific research by people with the education and background to back up their statements.

If I remember correctly this is the third glider diet that Johnson-Delaney has presented. At least she is giving us plenty of options! But 'scientific' or otherwise they are all just one persons personal opinion based on the knowledge they have of the subject. Doesn't mean they are correct.
Charlie H

And yes I have told a couple of medical doctors to go take a leap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nopity.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Charlie H; 05/22/05 06:32 AM.
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46666
05/22/05 07:36 AM
05/22/05 07:36 AM

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Charlie, the "problems" you're referring to with consumer goods were not created by science, but rather by lack of science being applied and $COST$ being the motivation for corporate descision-making. I work with both the state and corporations, and it is not that the science fails to recognize and provide solutions to the problems, but rather that companies make choices based on their profit margin/bottom line, often at the expense of quality. In the case of Dr. J-D, profit is NOT a factor in her recommendations, she is really concerned about the welfare of the animals. You should have seen how passionate she was, describing the things she's seen...

And there's no mystery to "weight-loss". Medical science has said for years the way to go is low calorie, high nutrition food and lots of exercise. The reason those "diets" don't work is that they're trying to bypass human metabolic biology with a quick-fix pill that will cause weight loss without effort or changes in eating habits, or by short-term unhealthy eating patterns that are not sustainable and are doomed to failure.

The fact that we're discussing this online at all is science, that you had doctors (to tell to take a flying leap) is science, the fact that we can even attempt to understand the metabolic, molecular, and physiological basis for ANYTHING, including Glider diets, is all science. Nothing is perfect, but I'm glad I live in the era I do, with the technology we have, thanks to science.

And, I disagree that her credentials make no difference. It's not even science-only credentials that matter. I sure won't let a plumber cut my hair, a stylist do my taxes, an accountant repair my engine, or an auto mechanic plumb my toilet, because they're very specific skills, that come with years of training. Nor will I do those things MYSELF, b/c I do not have the training needed.

What I do have is 10 years of higher education training in science/biology, and 5 years experience teaching it. And I STILL look to those with extensive training in the area of animal husbandry to educate myself, because I am not a veterinarian.

Yes, Dr. J-D's diet may have changed, perhaps that's because she's brave enough to respond to new data and update her recommendations, rather than being so concerned with having been "wrong" that she won't tell us what works better. If you look at the old diets, they're NOT totally different, they're early versions, constantly evolving to include new facts. This is science in action.

I'm not saying it's the last word on diets, nor am I saying that I'm going to blindly follow her guidelines without thinking about them. I think they're worth considering seriously, that's all. All I was trying to do was give access to new info I was given. Forgive me if I'm trying to teach science, that's what I do (I can show you my credentials <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

I asked her to post here on GC, and she said she felt she wasn't welcome, and that we gliderpeople were commited so to the "difficulty and mystery" of it all, and unwilling to change our methods, or indeed even consider alternatives with an open, mature mindset. I thought for sure she was wrong, b/c I KNOW how much you all love your suggies, but after today I dunno anymore... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46667
05/22/05 08:41 AM
05/22/05 08:41 AM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I'm pretty sure you can get water, honey, baby cereal, eggs and vit/min supplements in Ohio. The I-F is available from reliable protein, and also the diet that suncoast sells as ZKS is within 1% analysis in every way. Acacia gum, bee pollen, lorikeet nectar, eukalyptis w/flowers, crickets, all are often available at your local stores [florist/nursery/vitamin shop/pet store], all are available online.

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I live in the middle of nowhere. The closet pet store is about 45 minutes away from me. There is also no nursery and our florist have a pretty limited supply of flowers. Also, the baby food and wheat germ aren't usually available at any of the local stores. Quite simply put, BML isn't a good option for me and Dr. Johnson-Delany's diet wouldn't be a practical option for me, or most other people for that matter.

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I must take issue with the presentation of this statement. We do not guess, educated or otherwise, and I'm sorry if your education in science was so poor (very common in the US) that you were led to believe this is true. I became a scientist and an educator in order to help correct this very false impression.

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For somebody so educated and scientific, I am surprised you would be willing to question my scientific knowledge without proper research. That was an incorrect and uneducated statement. My statement in regards to scientist was solely in the regards of animal diet. The reason I said
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Also, I feel a need to comment on the reactions to having a "real scientist/expert" comment on glider diets. Just because she is a scientist, does not mean she is always correct. Scientist are proven wrong on a daily bases. The best they can generally offer is an educated guess.

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is because, until we have tried feeding every food item out there for an extended period of time, there really is know way to know for sure what works best. For all we know, gliders could do wonderfully on tuna fish and cheerios, but unless somebody tries it, there's no way to know. Scientist can analyze an animals wild diet and develop a diet similar to that for in captivity, but that does not mean that is the best diet... Also, there will be another, just as accredited individual out there, supporting some other diet. Who is to say which one is right? They are both using their education and research to offer what they THINK is the best diet.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46668
05/22/05 09:53 AM
05/22/05 09:53 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
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Austin, TX
Okay everyone, take a deep breath! Relax and smile.

I am not totally convinced that this is a perfect diet for my babies. But the things we are expressing here are our opinions. This sounds like it is getting a little heated, and we need to remember that we are here to help each other <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> not bash each others ideas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . I think that everyone has made a valid point.

I am very happy that I can post something here, and I get responses from lots of people pretty quickly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> We can't get personal, because the one person who may be able to answer your question might not be talking to you anymore. How sad is that for our babies?

I know I sound like a mom, cause I am, but I hate to see this get shut down when it gets further out of hand. And if it continues like it is, it will get ugly.

That's all.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46669
05/22/05 10:34 AM
05/22/05 10:34 AM

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WOW! And the cycle begins again...

I thoroughly enjoy how the truth and objectivity is triumphant in this thread. Please continue to debate objectively (providing examples, proofs, explanations, references, etc) and things should not get out of hand!

Great thread!

*sitting back in a hammock in the sun, wearing shades, sipping on some coconut water, and listening* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46670
05/22/05 10:55 AM
05/22/05 10:55 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Also, Marla, please don't ever feel like people are ganging up on you around here. Naturally, people who believe in a certain diet and are feeding it to their loved ones will defend (sometimes violently) their beliefs as it pertains to the diets they have chosen, because there is a degree of sentiment there!

Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that the nature of these boards are different from other ordinary boards, because GC is not just an informational board. In an ordinary board information is presented and debates start often impartial of people's feelings, sometimes with no particular attention paid to tact, etc. However, I have discovered over time that GC is different form other boards, and is in fact a "FAMILY" board where we all are quite honestly like one BIG family, helping eachother as if we were all related and were close to eachother. Sometimes, it's not enough to just be right around here, but it means everything in the world to prove you are right in a polite and outwardly courteous way. If we all treat eachother as such then I'm sure this thread will not be closed!

Anyway, I'm saying this because, Marla, I can completely identify with you right now. Just earlier this year, as a newbie like yourself, I started this thread which was an absolute eye opener for me:

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/sh...part=1&vc=1

...at the time I felt very ganged up on for my views (even subtly). It took me several diet wars to finally learn the physics of these boards, and only then was I able to appreciate GC to its fullest (which I prefer to frequent over other boards out there, save a select few). Anyway, the point is, let's try to keep this thread open, and I urge all old and un-new members to please continually make Marla feel welcome here, because she IS! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46671
05/22/05 11:32 AM
05/22/05 11:32 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
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Absolutly, I would love to hear from her directly. I don't think anyone is trying to be un-friendly, just defending their territory (so to speak).
I referree teenagers all day long, and I get sensitive sometimes--so feel free to tell me I am being too sensitive. Thanks.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46672
05/22/05 12:18 PM
05/22/05 12:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Marla, Mikey is right. We are not picking on you or Dr. Johnson-Delaney. We like to ask questions and better understand the reasoning behind diets. It is difficult at times to ask these questions without seeming like we are being personal.

And most of our opinions and questions are based on our past experiences and what we have learned from others about the proper care for gliders. Maybe not very scientific but it is difficult to get straight answers about diets. vets disagree, owners disagree, researchers disagree, and even the people who manufacture the commercial diets disagree. So as a result we question every new idea. And all we are really interested in is the welfare of the sugar gliders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46673
05/22/05 12:35 PM
05/22/05 12:35 PM

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I am interested in learning more!! PM sent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46674
05/22/05 12:48 PM
05/22/05 12:48 PM

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Welcome to GC! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Thank you for the information on the diet, I am interested to see how it looks as I have my little Harley here who completely refuses to eat BML. She would eat it when I first got her but now no dice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" /> I sent PM so lood forward to seeing info...forgot email tho it is []lisamrotek65@hotmail.com[/]
Thanks again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46675
05/22/05 01:32 PM
05/22/05 01:32 PM

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Yes, once again, another fascinating topic. As Mikey said, and I am paraphrasing, let's keep this thread [truthful and objective - NOT personal].

Unfortunately, I feel there HAVE BEEN some HARSH statements made to Leyna that were out of order, in my opinion . . . because who knows which ingredients are easily accessible in any given area?? I know that there are some products that I can not get from the little town that I work in, and I have to get them from the town that I LIVE in . . . those comments were unfair . . .and the other comments about science eduation, or lack thereof, were truly rude and uncalled for, but that is my opinion, which I suppose I should have left unsaid

however, that does not mean that we should not FAIRLY evaluate Dr. Johnson-Delany's research . . . and perhaps we can all learn a little more -- or not!! Let's have the information, and THEN make the decisions as to what to feed, or not feed, to our fuzzy little loves!

As GliderCENTRAL has previously advised:

"GliderCENTRAL does not recommend any specific diets, and encourages members to read, consult a knowledgeable veterinarian, and make an informed decision about diets."

I think we owe it to our gliders, and ourselves, to learn more . . . but we don't HAVE to accept any of it . . . this is information that each glider mommy/daddy HAS to decide for his/herself . . . and how can we ever FAIRLY evaluate this information if WE ALLOW this thread to get out of hand?

I would really hate to see that happen . . . I would welcome additional information from Dr. Johnson-Delany, and then I have the FREEDOM to accept that information, or reject it . . . but at least, let us have that CHOICE!

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46676
05/22/05 01:38 PM
05/22/05 01:38 PM

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I am full agreement with CharlieH and USMom!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Marla, I appreciate this new diet information VERY MUCH!! Thank you for sending it.

I also hope that Dr. Johnson-Delany is welcomed to this board . . . again, I believe we should have access to this information, and then we have another diet to consider, or not, as the case may be for each of our unique situations.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46677
05/22/05 02:00 PM
05/22/05 02:00 PM

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Cyndi, first off, thank you. As a fellow Ohioan, you know how hard it can be to find things here are times...

Also, I like your suggestion that Dr. Johnson-Delany come to GC. If anybody should be telling us about her diet, it should be her... That way, she can explain and defend her reasoning, vs. several third party persons bickering over it.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46678
05/22/05 02:17 PM
05/22/05 02:17 PM

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Leyna, you are quite welcome. Yes, I know all too well how hard it can be to find certain items. Sometimes, I pick up my groceries and supplies right after I get off work (in a smaller town than even Chillicothe), because I hate having to drive into Chillicothe after an hour's commute . . . not all stores have ALL items, believe it or not!

For instance, I was quite surprised that some grocery stores even "hide" (not deliberately, I'm sure) some of the ingredients for BML. For example, the wheat germ was in some strange aisle that I would have NEVER have thought to have looked in, and the honey? Guess where Kroger's hides that? I would have expected to find honey in the place with syrups and pancakes, but OH NO.... they hide it in the BREAD aisle!! Crazy grocery people! So, all is not fair in the grocery industry, and what one grocer carries as "standard" another has never even heard of! Maybe that's just the way it is in smaller towns *shrugs*

Although I can get mealies at several pet stores, they are either dried or too tiny for my fuzzles to be interested in; so, I have to have them shipped in.

Marla, thank you for bringing Dr. Johnson-Delany's diet to our attention, which is certainly "food" for thought . . .

Let's welcome Dr. Johnson-Delany to GC!!!

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46679
05/22/05 04:43 PM
05/22/05 04:43 PM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />Thanks so much Mikey, Charlie & usmom, for posting to reassure me that I am welcome here, I was begining to think I'd caused a problem and should just go away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I am not trying to defend these particular diets, only the value of continuing to update one's information from valid sources. I think people here take these issues very seriously and that's really wonderful! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

When science is called guessing or opinion it bothers me, b/c it's my life's work, I would never dare to insult someone else's profession like that, and so that's where my feelings came up. The misunderstanding many people have about the scientific method is disheartening. It sorta reminds me of Mike Meyers when he did the Scottish Dad in [So I Married an Axe Murderer]: "if it's science it's [censored]!" I'm not going to be able to have a fruitful dialog with someone who feels that this is the case.

What I can do is be a resource, as a scientist & educator, I can assist in clearing up things that are technical or confusing, terms, methods, etc. and aid our (GC's) scientific literacy level as a board. I teach at the college level, so I'm used to adult students! Please feel free to call on me (PM if you don't want a public chat), I'll bring my life's work to bear for anyone here, as you're all amazing human beings! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

As far as this particular thread, I'm not sure where to go from here. Should we continue to discuss these ideas or not? I didn't feel it was ugly, debate is about responding to points with clarifying data, which I felt was happening, but I'm not sure how the mods feel. (???) I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll just say the file will continue to be available to anyone who wants it, just PM me your email...

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46680
05/22/05 06:00 PM
05/22/05 06:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,354
Lexington, KY
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Posts: 7,354
Lexington, KY
I am looking forward to reading Dr. Johnson-Delaney's article -- Do you know where and when it will be published? This sounds like quite a departure from her two previously published diets. I'm curious to know why her thoughts have changed so dramatically.

Do you know how her research was conducted this time? I know that her research in the past has been primarily field research from trips to Australia. Is this a controlled, double-blind study, or is this study one of field observation as in her past studies? Both are valuable, of course -- I'm just trying to reconcile how different this is to her previous writings.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.



Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46681
05/22/05 07:14 PM
05/22/05 07:14 PM

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Marla: I, too, am an educator. My students' age range is from high school through adult (some in their 60s!). Additionally, I have taught at the college level, and I have also provided professional licensing courses through the state. Honestly, I was appalled when I read your comment about a person's science education and your speculation as to how sound it was. I thought that comment was harsh and inappropriate, especially from an educator's perspective. If we come across as harsh . . . or judgmental, then, we are undermining our own objective: which is to educate.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What I can do is be a resource, as a scientist & educator, I can assist in clearing up things that are technical or confusing, terms, methods, etc. and aid our (GC's) scientific literacy level as a board. I teach at the college level, so I'm used to adult students! Please feel free to call on me (PM if you don't want a public chat), I'll bring my life's work to bear for anyone here, as you're all amazing human beings!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

We should strive to educate and enlighten, certainly! However, I think we should do so without being, or appearing to be, judgmental (after all, the tone in messaging can sometimes come across quite differently than we may intend versus how we may come across if we were meeting face to face).

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As far as this particular thread, I'm not sure where to go from here. Should we continue to discuss these ideas or not? I didn't feel it was ugly, debate is about responding to points with clarifying data, which I felt was happening, but I'm not sure how the mods feel. (???) I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll just say the file will continue to be available to anyone who wants it, just PM me your email...

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Marla: From my perspective on your comment, "I'm not sure where to go from here . . ." I believe that we should continue to discuss these ideas because I believe there is a high level of interest. Perhaps, as I mentioned above, the tone of your message -- because it WAS in text -- was misleading. I don't think "debate" is right word to have used. I would prefer to think of this board as a place where we can have a dialogue (more at conversation) about the diet. Of course, there will be differences of opinion. I know very well these differences can and will occur. Mikey has been there, as he has previously disclosed . . . However, I believe that we should handle those differences of opinion with tact, truth, and objectivity. We are a diverse lot here at GC. Not everyone is a scientist, an educator, a Moderator, or an adorable Canadian Idol (smiles at Mikey); however, we should ALL be respectful of one another, regardless of educational background.

I just want to see this dialogue continue. I, for one, would welcome Dr. Johnson-Delany to this board. I would like to see a continuation of the discussion of this new research, which she has conducted! Again, thank you very much for the file.

Lucy raises some interesting questions, and I would like to learn more.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46682
05/22/05 07:50 PM
05/22/05 07:50 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
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Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
I posted earlier, but I guess I hit the wrong button, and it is not here. I referee teenagers all day long, and I get sensitive about a fight that is getting ready to happen. So, if I am being overly sensitive, feel free to let me know.

Also, I have not been around long enough to know about her other diets. I would like to hear from her, to know how she got to her conclusions, if her other diets are as different as she says.

Marla, if she doesn't want to come on, maybe she could give us some background on her research that will help us understand her change of heart and you can post it for her!

I believe that all of us agree; you are more than welcome here, and I welcome you, and hope to hear more from you. Thanks for bringing us this information.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46683
05/22/05 08:22 PM
05/22/05 08:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Now that we all know each other let's get back to Dr. Delany's diets. Does this new diet mean that her previous diets are not acceptable. One of them does include a small amount of fruit. Or does she still consider all three to be acceptable.

I would like to see a complete analysis of her new diet. With the inclusion of the original Ledbeaters, the Insectivore-fare, bee pollen and additional vitamin and calcium supplements that sounds like quiet a load of vitamins and minerals for a little glider. What are the suggestions for obtaining the high protein cereal for the original Ledbeaters? What is the nutrional value of aphids? How many would you feed with all of the other ingredients? How can you be sure of the values of bee pollen since it varies greatly depending on the source? Questions, Questions.

I know a lot of members are willing to jump at any new diet idea. But out of concern for the gliders I like to know what I am going to serve them. If a person has done scientific research on a diet they should be able to give a scientific explaination for each componet of that diet.

I do not have the creditinals of you guys but I have learned a long time ago not to take anything at face value. We are still in the stone age when it comes to glider diets and treatment. As responsible caregivers it is up to us to use every precaution when dealing with the captive glider.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46684
05/22/05 11:08 PM
05/22/05 11:08 PM

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CGARNES:

You're absolutely right when you say things come across more harshly in text than they're meant to, it was not my intention to blame Leyna for her standing on science, but I know a good education in the reality of scientific practice and math would prevent one from claiming it to be a "guess" or opinion.

Not that scientists always get it right, not at all. Sometimes the data are unclear, sometimes the experimental design is faulty, sometimes there are errors in recording, there are lots of ways that a study can be incorrect, or inconclusive, but the results are never a guess/opinion. If you want to challenge a study, then you have to logically SHOW where they went wrong in their methods (which does happen!) not just toss it out b/c you don't like it.

"Face value" is not where science places its stake. Hypotheses and theories must be testable and quantifiable, and the results of these tests repeatable by anyone with the same experimental materials and design. Belief requires no proof (though beliefs CAN be based on facts, but then they're more accurately called conclusions) and does not affect the physical universe, therefore cannot make a test give the same result. No matter how strongly we may "feel" that gravity doesn't exist, my laptop will still fall to the floor if the table or other support is removed from beneath it, and that's true no matter who drops it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I wanted rather to appologize on behalf of american science education in general, and to decry the fact that the country that achieves more/contributes more science than any other (30% of all new scientific discoveries are coming from the USA, with only 4.5% of the world's population) is failing to educate its general population in science and math. Primary science/math education (K-12) in the USA is far behined all other western industrialized nations. This, unfortunatly, is not "judgemental", it is the factual, and terribly sad state of affairs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />See http://www.bhef.com/media/feb1605.cfm for some very recent reports. Dedicated teachers like you, and myself, are doing all we can to combat this, but pretending it is not there will not make it go away.

I want to make it clear that it was never my intention to hurt anyone, and I still don't mean to. It is hard to write in my actual friendly "tone" of voice, especially if we disagree. I have to say that I'm mystified as to why it's okay, not considered "harsh", "inappropriate" or "judgemental" to attack & dismiss my entire profession? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46685
05/22/05 11:17 PM
05/22/05 11:17 PM

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PM sending!!

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46686
05/22/05 11:25 PM
05/22/05 11:25 PM

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PM sent.

I am enjoying following this post -- I hope it stays appropriate!! I am learning a lot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46687
05/23/05 12:51 AM
05/23/05 12:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Marla, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Welcome to GC! Your information you are trying to share is very welcome as well as a healthy discussion about it. I prefer it not to become a "debate" but rather stay at the discussion level as "debates" often become heated. If everyone will remember to remain respectful of others and not "bash" someone for their opinion, this thread can and will remain open. Glider Central is here for the purpose of educating and assisting glider owners "for the good of the gliders". New information is always welcome. What becomes of that information is up to the individual reader to take it as presented, do their own research on it and make their on decisions as to whether they feel it is helpful to them and their animals or not.

Everyone, please remember this is a diet discussion, not a debate about whether or not someone (other then possibly Dr. Delany) has a scientific background or what the educational system is or is not teaching.

Again, welcome to GC and I hope you will find that we all have the same goal, providing the best possible life for our little furred companions.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46688
05/23/05 01:04 AM
05/23/05 01:04 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46689
05/23/05 01:45 AM
05/23/05 01:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2,093
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Marla - Thanks for your info!
I have been a member on GC for over 5 yrs & have done a bit of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> research, including following Cathy Delaney's research info thru the years.

It's been sad to witness the many missed opportunities of GC.
Several Australian marsupial experts have visited GC thru the years, shake their heads, they certainly do not feel welcome & do not feel a need to defend their profession, their publications speak of their expertise - This has been a very large loss to the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> community


:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl] #46690
05/23/05 02:20 AM
05/23/05 02:20 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> Pockets!

...But there are a number of us on here that do stand up for the truth at any cost..! Though some may lack the patience to explain their stances, many on here do take the time and effort to help contribute to the pet glider movement no matter how difficult the status quo is to influence.

I don't ever fear being banned from these boards so long as I know that it's the truth that I stand for and my conscience is clear as air. I know a number of folks on here that share similar sentiments. On a positive note, I have seen that things have really begun to change around here and that GC has certainly opened its doors and warmed up to advancements in the realm of glider diets and new ideas. I feel this has been a great step for GC and the glider community as a whole! It's showing signs of evolution! I remember way back in the day when it was encouraged that we fed our gliders a dry parrot food mix!

In terms of the comment on education, perhaps that isn't really a fair thing to bring to the table. I am not ashamed to admit that I have yet to complete second year university (the show really threw my life off track), but that hasn't hindered me from following my science! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Overall, I think Dr. Delaney Johnson has some valid points that we should evaluate and really take into consideration. If only her publication went really in depth in regards to the research methods, etc. that would certainly be of great help!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl] #46691
05/23/05 02:30 AM
05/23/05 02:30 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
well, why not chime in huh?
I appreciate Marla bringing this info.
I think Dr. J-D has some good ideas, I've always been a fan of incorporating native glider food items.
This may be hard for some people to do, and if you can do it, why not, and if you can't..... well, you can't! Just do your best, nobody should bash you if you're trying to do what you feel is best and what is within your powers for your gliders!

One thing I find especially grand is that Dr. J-D and her team have determined that the gum from Acacia Senegal, the very broady used and extensively available and also soooo much cheaper source of gum, is.........suitable and safe to feed gliders without a shadow of a doubt!!!

They analysed the composition of both A.Senegal and A.Mearnsii(for those of you who do not know, A. Mearnsii is the most common source of Acacia gum for Australian wild gliders) and they found that they are exchangeable. That is great news, and many know how that question has been burning in my mind! A. Senegal is sooo much cheaper and easy to get!

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46692
05/23/05 06:03 AM
05/23/05 06:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Marla wrote:
Face value" is not where science places its stake. Hypotheses and theories must be testable and quantifiable, and the results of these tests repeatable by anyone with the same experimental materials and design

I agree with that statement. Since this is a new diet presented by Dr. Cathy Johnson-Delaney I would like to see how she developed it. Was it through her observations of wild gliders or through studying articles by Australian researchers. Or did she actually set up a diet test program with live gliders and monitor them on the diet over a period of time? I would think a test program with live gliders would be the only way to 'scientifically' design a proper diet. Anything other than that is just speculation no matter what your background or education is.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46693
05/23/05 07:11 AM
05/23/05 07:11 AM

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I have read a portion of it, not all of it, so far and I am really impressed, but like Charlie and others would love to see more reasoning as to how she came about these discoveries. I'd love to know what fruits she finds acceptable as well as vegetables and in what amounts. I'd also like to know her all over logic for this updated diet.

Slightly off topic, I found it odd that gliders in captivity are still said to reach maturity after 8 months of age.... my first wfb pair was pregnant at 4.5 months oop.. i guess technicaly tho that would be 6 months.. is that what the age difference can be accounted to?

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