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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46784
05/28/05 09:30 AM
05/28/05 09:30 AM
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So, should I not feed peas, ever? I can handle that, they don't rush for it when I feed it.


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46785
05/28/05 09:39 AM
05/28/05 09:39 AM

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Well, I'm sure a treat here and there wouldn't hurt... I added that in the above post, too. I have fed a few snow peas to my glider before, and if that's a bad thing then I'm just as guilty of glider abuse. I see it as a little candy to my children since mine seem to kind of like it... I think legumes may be detrimental in light of the phytic acids if fed regularly on a nightly basis, for example.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46786
05/28/05 09:42 AM
05/28/05 09:42 AM

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lol i am just hoping I can still feed okra a lot and berries.. my gliders go nuts for those.

the ca:ph ratio isn't the only thing being taken into consideration either....

and i'm not sure why that part of this diet was chosen to be jumped over b/c in any other "proven" glider diet today, that's ALL you hear.. this is the first that has taken more than that into consideration in my opinion

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46787
05/28/05 10:10 AM
05/28/05 10:10 AM

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FlyingElvis, the link you provided sent me to an index. Where to from there?

~Lynn

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46788
05/28/05 10:17 AM
05/28/05 10:17 AM
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I think that with all of the research we do to feed our babies, it should qualify as some sort of class! I know that I look at the nutritional content of pretty much anything new I feed them. However, the only thing before now that I thought I had to worry about was calcium/phosphorus ratios. Mikey, can you put together a list of the other ratios to look at? I would be most grateful!


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46789
05/28/05 02:06 PM
05/28/05 02:06 PM

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Wow, guys this is an awesome thread. I think it's important to keep discussions like this open.

Peggy - Good point, I was planning on leaving the vitamins out of the leadbeaters mix and just using Pricilla's vitamins. YES, this means I am changing the diet, that is MY CHOICE, please don't anyone nag me about this. Anyone else chosing to try this diet needs to be aware and do their research, but that goes for ANY diet. I think anything you feed is going to have to be tweeked for your own gliders depending on what they like to eat and your lifestyle.

Charlie - You were a bit rude up there. I think I am educated enough to change my gliders diet. I think anyone who hangs out this long on GC is probably educated enough. There is LOTS of info on here if you know how to dig and pay attention. I think it's pretty rare that we get anyone in the posts that doesn't at least have SOME education in the glider diet arena, considering it's always been the hottest debate.

Anyhoo, I'm going to leave out the vitamins from the leadbeaters and use Pricilla's vitamins. Mostly because I like being able to measure out my vitamins nightly. I feel that it is far easier to manage their vitamin intake when it's put on fresh at night versus being frozen in a cube of something I can't be sure they will eat. And hers are the only vitamins that give you an actual amount nightly, versus "sprinkling" or mixing it into something like BML or the original leadbeaters. I am personally highly impressed with this vitamin, as I've stated in another post, and will be continuing to use it.

As for the flower debate, Dr. JD only says it's an option, if I remember right it's not a required part of the diet, so I'll use Kerns and Goya nectars instead of flowers.

I'm still trying to hunt down this really good nutrition website..... I think it was posted in the vitamin talk we had a month or so ago, I'm going to go look, but it gave a complete breakdown of whatever you wanted. It was a better web site than the one we have listed in the links section on GC.

Guys keep up the great work. I really think this is awesome. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46790
05/28/05 02:29 PM
05/28/05 02:29 PM
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Nihm, I just made a batch of BML and was thinking about the vitamins as I put them in. I wonder what freezing does to their ability to do what they are supposed to. I mean does it change it? I think it does, but maybe this was taken into account? Anyway, I am using ice cube trays for the first time, and I feel better about that than trying to scoop it out each time, better idea of what they are eating. My guys do eat all of their bml--it is the first thing they go for. So, I know they are getting their vitamins (I have never stayed up to watch them eat, but they don't fight or hoard food, unless it is mealies!)

I love this thread, it is the first thing I look at now! I am learning a lot!


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46791
05/28/05 02:31 PM
05/28/05 02:31 PM

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amanda, i posted a link to the usda nutitional database in this thread if that is the type of thing you are looking for. it is my favorite site for food info

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46792
05/28/05 05:06 PM
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Sorry Zacksmom! When I posted it shortened it for some reason. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I just edited it to show the entire url <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46793
05/29/05 09:02 AM
05/29/05 09:02 AM
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ok guys, i *hate* to do this, but i really can't read through this whole thread...has there been a decision made on if these diet modifications Dr. JD suggests are a good idea? i work best if someone will just point me to a recipe that has been declared the best for my gliders...i know that's lazy, but i doubt i understand glider nutritional needs in-depth enough to be part of the final concensus, and i'm absolutely horrible at reading long extended posts like this, i don't absorb it all and my computer is super-slow. i saw mention of a link to the pdf file elvis was sending out...i'll go look that up...the question here is, i guess, should i drop everything i'm doing and start feeding this diet? is there a specific recipe or diet plan i will be able to pick out? i heard mention of "insectivore fare" being one of the suggested staples in this diet...is this the same as "zookeeper's secret"?i really just want what's the best for my gliders, especially if the diet we've been feeding is so dramatically wrong, but i need it cut and dried with a list of do's and don'ts....

thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46794
05/29/05 10:29 AM
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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Charlie:
What happens to vitamin k when it is frozen? What effect does freezing have on vitamin c?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

...the same thing that happens to Vitamins K and C in the frozen dietary media of other diets like the BML mixture, etc. Degradation of the vitamins occurs quite slowly, if that was what you're referring to. For example, some fresh fruits lose most if not all of their Vitamin C content after two months of being frozen (I forget what the exact temperature in degrees K was that the fruits were frozen at, as indicated in the literature where I had read that, but regardless, degredation of Vitamin C is still quite a slow process).

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46795
05/29/05 11:31 AM
05/29/05 11:31 AM
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So, what you are saying is that if we have stuff that is more than 2 months old, they are getting filler and not really much nutrition?


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46796
05/29/05 03:06 PM
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Well, if the stuff is frozen that is... and that is for Vitamin C in particular... i.e. I'd read that generally fruits and fruit drinks if placed in the freezer for about 2 months or longer lose its Vitamin C content. I'm sure the different vitamins possess their own different chemical/physical properties and that they degrade due to freezing at different rates, however as was mentioned by Marla, freezing effects vitamins at a relatively low rate, and so long as your BML mixture or Original Leadbeater's Mix, or what have you, isn't in the freezer for longer than a few months, you don't have to worry about vitamins being affected greatly by the freezing process.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46797
05/29/05 03:08 PM
05/29/05 03:08 PM
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Oh, good. I have had that as a bit of a concern. thanks!


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46798
05/29/05 03:59 PM
05/29/05 03:59 PM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> It says on the pdf file that the cages should be 2 meters by 2 meters by at least 1.8 meters high. and if what she said is true about the size of cage they need is true. then most people's cages would be way too small for sugar gliders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Also Isn't hieght more important than width?

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46799
05/29/05 04:04 PM
05/29/05 04:04 PM
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i recently found that gliders really don't even glide unless they are in a hurry or in danger...their main meathod of movement is climbing. gliding is more of a backup plan. so, theoretically, your gliders would have a much better time in a cage that's packed with things to climb on than they would in a cage with a lot of open space...and this also means that the climb up is not particularly important. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46800
05/29/05 04:57 PM
05/29/05 04:57 PM

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USmom & Mikey! Mikey Thanks for clarifying for us!
USmom(hey what's your name anyway?:) ) That's one of the reasons I decided to just stick with Pricilla's vitamins, so I don't have to even worry about vitamin degredation, even though it's a slow process, I just really like the idea of putting them in myself.


Okay, just a comment here really quick.
1) If you haven't read through the whole document please do! It helps a discussion a great deal if people making contributions to the conversation have actually READ the material otherwise we end up with a lot of filler. Just like in class when no one does their homework.
2) The diet Dr. JD is suggesting is NOT THAT MUCH DIFFERENT than what we already feed. The ONLY major differene is that she suggests fruits and veggies as treats/small proportions of the diet only and the nectar(which is NOT a requirement, only a TREAT, fyi)

Looking at the sheet, I just don't think this diet is all that much different than anything else we've been feeding.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46801
05/29/05 05:24 PM
05/29/05 05:24 PM
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Shawna!


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46802
05/29/05 06:48 PM
05/29/05 06:48 PM

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This 6ftx6ftx4ft cage size requirement comes directly from the various places that are rehabilitating gliders. They're interested in returning them to health and then releasing them back into the wild, where they will need to be in practice gliding to avoid predators, etc.

For the purpose of housing pet gliders, they don't need to have room in their cage to glide. We take them out and play with them, unlike the rehabilitating gliders, that stay in this enclosure until released. The workers actually go into the enclosure to feed them and check on them.

Also, our don't need to glide at all unless it's for fun, as they're not running from predators. The patagium is a membrane, and itself is not muscular, so our little ones exercise by climbing & running, not gliding.

So, the cage size already approved by GC is fine for pets, just not for wild gliders.

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46803
05/29/05 07:18 PM
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I'm not sure why some board members seem to have a problem when a cage requirement larger than 3ft high is suggested. What exactly is the problem if a source says that the minimum cage size should be 6ftx6ftx4ft?

Surely the best for the glider is the biggest we can offer. Minimum requirements are only boundaries for how low you can go, not how high! If all you can offer is the minimum, that's fine. Can you seriously call yourself a good owner if you have the means (money, space, etc) to provide more space, but don't?

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46804
05/29/05 08:28 PM
05/29/05 08:28 PM
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Well, back to the diet, Mikey, are there other ratio's that we should worry about, other than calcium/phosphorus? I know you mentioned one earlier, I am just trying to make a list.


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46805
05/29/05 10:17 PM
05/29/05 10:17 PM

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Well, I feel Ca:P would be the primary ratio of concern. In terms of the aforementioned Calcium:oxalic acid or Calcium:phytic acid ratios, I don't see them being much of a worry seeing as I feel many here on GC generally stay away from legumes (due in most part to the "glider gas" theory I keep reading about) and I doubt anyone here feeds large amounts of spinach, beet leaves, chard, and rhubarb, so I'm sure calcium:phytic acid and calcium:oxalic acid ratios are relatively positive in most diets.

If you want to get real particular then, well, wow there are just so many things. I don't know if I remember all the compounds of what inhibits what. There are just so many! Also, many of the inhibitors of the vitamins generally don't apply to our quams on the issue. For instance, Vitamin B (forgetting the number <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />) is destroyed by exposure to sunlight, but I doubt sunlight should be something we should really watch out for to ensure our gliders are getting the necessary dietary Vitamin B compounds. LOL. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

I will say this though - generally, so long as you don't feed too much of one thing, you should be ok.

For instance, though cantaloupe, cherries, or blueberries may seem like normal, glider-friendly fruits, they contain relatively high amounts of salicylates (A salt/ester of salicylic acid) compared to some other fruits, which inhibits/deters Vitamin K in large amounts (the salicilates, that is). I'm sure a constant diet of cantaloupe, cherries, and blueberries every night for a year could lead to Vitamin K deficiencies, assuming insufficient amounts of Vitamin K were supplimented to the diet.

As has been a reoccurring theme here in the diet threads - Moderation is the key! I will list more focal ratios as they come to mind, Shawna!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46806
05/29/05 10:31 PM
05/29/05 10:31 PM
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Thanks so much! That helps a lot, and makes me feel better. As far as the specific fruits you mentioned, I do feed those 2-3 times a week, do you think I should cut down a bit?


Shawna
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Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46807
05/29/05 10:38 PM
05/29/05 10:38 PM

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True Becca, I don't have a problem with larger cages, I myself have 30" x 30" x 48" cages, and plan on getting the hexagonal style that is even larger. My point in the above post wasn't that the minimum guideline on GC should be the maximum, but rather that there's no need to panic if you don't have room/resources for a 6ft x 6ft x 4 ft cage, that's all. I was explaining where Dr.J-D's size came from, and the logic behined it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46808
05/29/05 10:42 PM
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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As far as the specific fruits you mentioned, I do feed those 2-3 times a week, do you think I should cut down a bit

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Pshhhh... Nah! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't see the need to! Other fruits that contain high salicylates are dates, apricots, raspberries, strawberries, and grapes, but could you imagine cutting down on such wholesome fruits?! I'm confident Dr. Delaney Johnson didn't just dream up her diet and has figured and worked out her ratios accordingly. I suppose that would be one advantage to her diet, seeing as fruits/veggies (which contain such variable amounts of different nutrients/vitamins) there may be less variation with the nutrients/vitamins provided to the gliders, reducing the risk of owners feeding too much of one fruit/veggie, for instance.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46809
05/29/05 10:42 PM
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Ok, I've finally gotten around to posting the pdf. Here's the link:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~maxmonty/gliderinfo.pdf
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46810
05/29/05 10:53 PM
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lol, good job <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
why didn't I think of doing that, duh?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46811
05/29/05 11:06 PM
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I think I've read the entire post, but I may have missed this. What vitamin/mineral supplement does Dr. Johnson-Delaney recommend be included in the leadbeaters mix?

Also, has anyone contacted Exotic Nutrition to see if their Insectivore-Fare is produced by ZooFood? The ingredients are identical and in the exact same order.

Also, not to be picky, but surely Dr. Johnson-Delaney is aware that high protein baby cereal is not available in the United States. Has she personally recommended a replacement?

Finally (and this is more for informational purposes than anything), this is basically the same diet that was published by Dr. Johnson-Delaney in 2000 in the Exotic DVM Veterinary Magazine, Volume 2.3. The only reason I mention this is that I believe it is important to realize this isn't a "new" diet, but an existing diet.

All that being said, its good to see this discussion.

~Lynn

Last edited by ZacksMom; 05/29/05 11:19 PM.
Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ] #46812
05/29/05 11:20 PM
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Could someone maybe make a number two because this takes a really long time for my computer to load.

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