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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #649362
10/02/08 10:38 PM
10/02/08 10:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
Everything that silverwolf has done has certainly helped this community to a great degree. Everything that has been found out so far is known as factual without seeing actual documents from the huge companies. Richard said that he had discussed these issues with the companies (shepards and Riverdale) he deals with when this came about and was assured by both places that there was nothing coming from China that these companies were using. Now I will have to have Ken ask him how far he went into documentation with each of them, but I totally believe that the companies were telling him the truth. Otherwise thousands of gliders would have been showing signs for years. Our customers would have been very unhappy and had sick gliders as we stuck with riverdale except for those couple of instances.
As far as Kitty could it be that something happened to her load of wire during shipment? Could one of the warehouses have been sprayed while it was sitting in there in preparation for being shipped? Could exhaust have gotten into the back of the truck and caused something to get on the wire (after all it is only wrapped in paper or sometimes a box)? If there are toxins being shown for sure then something had to have happened, but I feel pretty confident that it was not the actual wire. This wire has been being used for the past 10 years at least (so definitely since the problem began) and nothing like this has ever shown up with Riverdale wire before. It could have been an illness that just spread through all the gliders. What I do not know. No matter what the problem was I am very sorry it happened as that is a lot to go through all at once. Kitty was going through enough in her life and then to add this on top of it. I feel horrible for her. I am sure that she wants to be able to rule things out so that she can find out what it was for sure so she can move on with everything. Maybe there is a way to trace the shipment of this wire (each warehouse) and find a way of asking them if they had sprayed or cleaned with anything in particular lately without tipping them off that it was a problem. I wish I knew what the problem was.
Did people know that this stuff can leach through powder coated cages as well? What type of cages were they in before the PVC wire cages? Maybe it was actually the other cages causing the problem.
Has Kitty found anything new out?


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #649561
10/03/08 08:35 AM
10/03/08 08:35 AM

M
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Well, she said that she removed them from the cages she built & put them back in the old cages & they started getting better. So if it was the old cages, the would have gotten worse, not better.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #650059
10/03/08 11:17 PM
10/03/08 11:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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That's true. Do we know that is why they were getting better for sure though as they had started receiving treatment at that point as well hadn't they?
If this is a bad roll of wire we need to see how it got to be a bad roll of wire or bad rolls of wire. There have been quite a few people that have used Riverdale wire in the same time frame as her and they have had no problems. We are included in those numbers as well. Answers to this would be great, but I am not sure there will ever be any definite answers to this. Unless we know what exactly to test for and to see if it links back to the gliders necropsies and this would cost a fortune unless we can find someone to do the testing for free or really cheap at least. I am not trying to call anyone a liar here. I am just trying to figure this out as others are using it with no problem at all. So it is hard to figure out what went wrong in this situation. I think people are taking what i am saying wrong. that i am saying there is no way it can be the wire, but I am not saying that. I am saying that if it is the wire then something had to have happened to that wire to cause it to be a bad batch since all the other wire used around that time (on this forum anyway) there has been no problems. I want to know what happened just as much as the next person so we can prevent it from happening again if possible.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #650693
10/05/08 12:43 AM
10/05/08 12:43 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
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I apologize, I have been really busy and I forget to look at this. I did talk directly to Riverdale Mills, and I did ask them about using this for cages. They never said to me that I shouldn't be using it. I asked about how to clean it and the lady I spoke with said that their customers will pressure wash them with steam. Which is what got me to put it in the tub and scrub it down with car wash soap.

My wire did not come from or through Klubertanz, mine came from Riverdale Mills.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #650696
10/05/08 12:48 AM
10/05/08 12:48 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
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Austin, TX
That makes a lot of sense Danielle. I did not buy it from e-bay, but I found them on e-bay because I was looking for wire, and I asked what they have. The wire has an odor. If you can find out which division of A&M did the testing, I am willing to take them more wire. They are only an hour or so away from me, but I am betting we can get it tested for zinc elsewhere.

The e-bay store did say that the wire could have pieces of the coating missing or uneven.

Attached Files
170.jpg (12 downloads)
Here is the roll of wire.
Last edited by USMom; 10/05/08 12:51 AM.

Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #650941
10/05/08 03:22 PM
10/05/08 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Kitty here, Yes it is the ones who are being treated that are getting better. They are on prednisone and doxycycline. They just finished up and are going back for blood work this coming friday. I cleaned the largest cage and put the group back in with much anxiety I must admit. The group is three down and they know it. This is the same group that lost three about three years ago to a toxic inhalant. Their lungs collapsed. It turns out that new burners on stoves are coated with some chemical that burns off when first used. The house I was in at the time had a ventilation problem and all odors from the kitchen went into the glider room. The 3 who died were the top ranking gliders. The group was devastated and an obvious alpha never did step up and take control. So I am not seeing the same response, not as devastating to them, but they are upset. I hate putting them back in, but they are really unhappy in the smaller cages, which are also PVC coated. I just feel that I am experimenting with my gliders. I weigh them every other night, that is the ones who were not obviously ill. But all were treated for a week after the problem was noted. Then only the ones who were notebly under weight and tested, showing low packed cell volume. So I sit and watch anxiously. A concern is, as was mentioned by someone above, that perhaps there is some prediposing suseptability factor. In the ALS magazine there was an article about PON enzyme which detoxifying enzyme in the body is not nromal in a good protion of ALS pts. leaving them more suseptable to toxins. Gliders may have something similar. The first one who died was younger than the ones that I am treating now by about a year. So why did he die first? I got the wire, I think towards the end of last year. I have the receipt somewhere. Paper work is not on the top of my list of abilities, and I have sooo much of it. Which is why I asked Klubertanz where they got the wire. If they get their wire from more than one company I don't know how he knew which wire I got because I did not give him my full name. Riverdale (if I wrote rivendale it was an error on my part) never did e-mail me back when I asked for more specific on wire manufacturing. I also asked them why I should buy their wire over another. No response. Some one up above mentioned that they would send a wire for animal use despite the fact that it is not intended for animal use is somewhat disconcerning.
When I get the cash I going to buy stainless steele. I would rather have peace of mind than worry about possible problems and I can make the cages as I wanted them to be originally. Stainless steele would be more easy to work with. The guy who was recommended to build them turned out to be an idiot,Dan Longone, I called him back to do repairs right after he finished the job, but his repairs were so half **$##!&* that all I wanted was him out of my house. I would take him to court, but I can't find the paper work. And yes the wire may have been exposed to something in transit, or at dumbhead Dan's house. The cages have been washed though. I don't know where to have the wire tested here in AZ. No one I have called can give me an answer, only that it would be really expensive. I am still waiting to hear from the lady from the pharmacutical (however it's spelled) company who said that she would look at my glider's biopsied parts. She may be able to shed some light as to what the problem is. At least I hope so. Silverfox did have some good input-thanks. So, for now I will wait and see if any show signs of sickness. Keeping a really close and anxious eye on them. Kitty

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: kittybaran] #650964
10/05/08 04:02 PM
10/05/08 04:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
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Hi Kitty - glad your gliders seem to be doing okay. Thank you for keeping us updated and I hope your guys pull through with no more issues.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Gossamer] #651056
10/05/08 07:01 PM
10/05/08 07:01 PM

M
Monster OP
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Fingers and toes crossed for your babies - thank you for keeping us updated! I hope you hear back on the histopathy results too...

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #651100
10/05/08 08:33 PM
10/05/08 08:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
S
silverwolf Offline
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Posts: 1,732
Utah
Thanks for the update kitty we appreciate it. Also don't feel to bad about the paperwork stuff as that is also my downfall. I hate paperwork. That is one area I am really trying to improve on as paperwork is necessary for us and I really need to improve that. One of the things you might ask them when they do the remaining test on your babies is if they do see signs of zinc oxide poisoning. That would give a definate answer as to what it was. I am going to try and find out monday if we can get our hands on the reports that A & M did or at least where to look. I am also going to try and see what other information I can get as far as this wire is concerned. I will let everyone know what I have found so maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #652183
10/07/08 02:51 PM
10/07/08 02:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
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kittybaran  Offline
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K

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Hey Silverwolf, I had some checked for zinc poisoning and their tests came back negative. There is something going on in the house. There is to many health issues. I just took another one to the vet today. He has ulcers in both of his eyes. The day before the eye issue showed up I had put the group back in the large cages of which I had taken them out of. He is on drops three times a day and he gets rechecked next week. A little over a week ago I took another one, Pinon, the daughter and sister of two of the ill, but surviving gliders to the vet, for trouble urinating, UTI with substantial inflammation. I feel bad that I did not take her in sooner, but she I one that stains occasionally, and I would find pee puddles in the cage that I had isolated her in, inorder to check on the staining because it had lasted two days. I also have a cat with chronic liver disaese, something that is not uncommon to cats, but it sure is odd that is showed up now. The glider, Ponce de Leon, who was the first to die had primary liver involvment. I also have two other cats on drugs for fevers and unknow infections. I feel like I'm running an animal hospital. Thank God I'm self employed right now and have the time to administer all the meds to everyone. But this can't be just a inconvient timing of ills. It seems there must be a correlation, maybe not between the cats and gliders, but at least amongst the species. I'm feel like my animals are being picked on hence myself as well,

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: kittybaran] #652209
10/07/08 03:27 PM
10/07/08 03:27 PM

M
Monster OP
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M



Gosh Kitty, I'm starting to wonder, now that your cat is involved too - could it be something like asbestos, or carbon monoxide - anything that the animals would be more sensitive to than you. It even could be something that would affect you, but later, or at higher 'doses'???

Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders #652211
10/07/08 03:29 PM
10/07/08 03:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
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L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
See Part One here

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #652212
10/07/08 03:30 PM
10/07/08 03:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
See Part 2 here

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: LSardou] #655469
10/12/08 11:17 PM
10/12/08 11:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
Sorry to be away so long. I am having health problems again and just able to do so much in a day right now.
I think you should call the fire department and have them test your carbon monoxide levels. Do you have a carbon monoxide detector? If you do what brand? Battery or hard wired? Just wondering as my husband is a fire-fighter and knows quite a bit about that. He said it is nothing for your local fire department to come in and check for you.
I agree. I think it is something in your house. I really don't think I would concentrate on the wire at this point as I am pretty sure that is not the issue. I think it just happened to be a coincidence that things started showing up after that.
Klubertanz sells Shepards and Riverdale wire so it is only 2 different types. They sell more Riverdale than Shepards so maybe that is why he said that. I would call and have them look up your order specifically if you want to know for sure and the part number will tell them what brand it was. I don't think these problems are wire related though.
I really think you need to have your house checked out for everything you can until you find the problem. If this is affecting your animals it is just a matter of time before it affects you. I would start with carbon monoxide since that is the easiest. Check with your local health department and they can help you test for other things. This way this doesn't cost you a great deal. DO you own or rent? Either way they should be able to help you either cheaply or free of charge. I hope this helps. Please keep us updated on what is going on. You and your animals are in my thoughts and prayers.
Silverwolf has really been doing a great deal with this and I would direct any of the questions about the A & M testing towards silverwolf. They are much more aware of that than I am. All the information I got about that I received from silverwolf.
Also the only ones that are selling their wire really geared towards fishing and trapping is this Riverdale Mills that I know of. Klubertanz sells their wire knowing it will be used on cages for live animals. This Riverdale mills may very well have some of this toxic wire and not saying anything even though they are suppose to.
I pray all this gets worked out as I would hate to see any more of your animals or you get sick. This is getting to the point it seems dangerous for you to be in that house. Is there anywhere you can stay until it is checked out thoroughly. Including your babies.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #656054
10/14/08 12:10 AM
10/14/08 12:10 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
I tend to agree with Danielle. What do the cats have in common with the gliders? Water? Do you ever feed cat food to the gliders, I know some people use it as a staple, and there have been some serious issues with cat/dog food in the last couple of years.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: USMom] #656319
10/14/08 03:13 PM
10/14/08 03:13 PM

L
lindayaks OP
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lindayaks OP
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L



Has anyone thought about testing for Radon?....It's a big problem in some areas and can cause all kinds of mysterious ailments. Some people "pooh-pooh" it but it is radioactive!

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: ] #661711
10/24/08 05:01 PM
10/24/08 05:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Hey sorry I have not been logged on. Its barbaric, but I don't habe internet at the house. Carbon dioxide would produce different symptoms then have been exhibited by the animals. I have thought about some toxin in the ground, because I recently had a sink hole appear last feburaryish and it filled my neighbors basement with 5 feet of water. I irrigate and they do not visit their basement very often and I don't go on that side of the yard that often. The hole stood there until about two months ago when I finally found someone reliable to repair it. And it is on the side of the house where the gliders are and where the hepaticly sick cat eats (he is a stuvite cat too). I don't know if it is related. I have my glider Jelly at the vets right now have surgery for a prolapsed colon. I hope that turns out to be nothing more. I told the vet today that in the last month what I have spent on vet bills I could have spent 8 comfortable months backpacking thru central and south america or bought 3 kyaks with sail riggs or paid for the majority of a badly needed new car. Oh, the cats drink from the faucet and the glider bottled water so it aint the water. About radon, I've considered things such as that, since my mom died of ALS and so did a lady about 6 houses down and around the corner and Skip three houses down has Myasthinia Gravis. I don't know but I think that is somewhat odd. Kitty

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: kittybaran] #662071
10/25/08 12:31 PM
10/25/08 12:31 PM

L
lindayaks OP
Unregistered
lindayaks OP
Unregistered
L



sounds very odd to me. I'm so sorry you lost your Mom, too. Also, if that sinkhole had standing water in it or the soil stayed wet all the time it could have allowed mold to grow. Some molds are very toxic and breathing the spores can cause a range of symptoms. Repairing it could have stirred up the dirt and mold.

Not being nosey, but where in AZ are you? My husband said if you are in an area where there were mines, or on a reclaimed landfill, there could be gasses coming from underground. (We are transplants from AZ, too.)

If your home is old, maybe there is asbestos or lead paint?

BTW, I was talking about carbon MONoxide, not dioxide. I figured that was what you meant, but wasn't sure.

Do you have high tension electric wires near your house (120kv to 500kv)?

I think you can by a test kit for Radon at Lowes or Home Depot.

I would call the health department and have them come test for all the possibilities. It sounds like whatever it is is affecting you, too. You are obviously a caregiver, just don't forget to take care of yourself or you won't be able to help the animals you love so much!

Last edited by lindayaks; 10/25/08 12:44 PM.
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