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Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: ] #705502
01/04/09 01:44 PM
01/04/09 01:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Jen - once again, you think what I think, and write better!

In no way was I saying that gliders - or even leus - should not be bred. Perhaps they should never have been bred in the first place? I don't know - I didn't have gliders in 01, and I don't know what my take on it would have been then.

However - they were bred, and now they are here, and Leus are beautiful and desired.

We just need to be careful and cautious. The lines need to be strengthened. Only those with some grasp on the concepts of genetics, and who are willing to learn more, should be breeding them.

Perhaps this is so of ALL gliders! I do believe it is certainly true of the more exotic colors! We've seen what careless breeding can do - we have sterile mosaics! Let's learn that lesson and proceed with HUGE caution with Creminos, Leus, Albinos!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: BeckiT] #705510
01/04/09 01:55 PM
01/04/09 01:55 PM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
Unregistered
R



BeckT That is exactly what I am saying with the Gene Action...people need to do more research 1st to find these traits out. If the traits are not associated with this mutation then they will not be brought out through inbreeding. This is where the death data base will come in handy. : )

Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: BeckiT] #705522
01/04/09 02:18 PM
01/04/09 02:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted By: BeckiT
Originally Posted By: rbaby
No amount of inbreeding can bring out undesirable traits if they are not there in the first place so if people are going to continue linebreeding ( a milder form of inbreeding) then make sure you do your research and check out the genetic problems with your glider parents. It does not (line/inbreeding) itself create anomolies as often as is believed, but it does increase the chances that problem genes will be manifested in the stock. No amount of inbreeding can create them if they do not already exists in the individuals.
I have to disagree with it not bringing out undesirable traits. There is SO much we don't know about glider genetics including what genes are recessive and would thus be brought out by doubling up by inbreeding/linebreeding. As we all know, gliders are good at appearing healthy even when problems exist that we can't see.


Becki, Aimee didn't say that inbreeding didn't bring out undesireable traits..she stated that inbreeding wouldn't bring out the undesireable traits if they are not there in the first place...


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: Suggiegramma] #705526
01/04/09 02:23 PM
01/04/09 02:23 PM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
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R



Yep!

Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: ] #705543
01/04/09 02:40 PM
01/04/09 02:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
BeckiT  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
But, what if they do get the bad stuff, but don't outwardly show it? How would anyone know until that glider is dead how many years later and (hopefully) a necropsy is performed dunno What if they have it, but are simply a carrier of it, and while they don't show the bad trait themselves, it will be passed down to all of their offspring.

As one of the breeders working to breed out the leu line, I hate to see close pairings that almost undo all the hard work some of us are trying to do with the lines right now.

Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: Suggiegramma] #705582
01/04/09 03:09 PM
01/04/09 03:09 PM

7
7glider7
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We don't know enough about glider genetics to know whether or not "bad alleles" are there for certain. Nobody has sequenced a glider genome, nobody has done studies to try to link genes to health or behavior...none of this has been done. There are currently NO allele tests for gliders where you could test their DNA and see if they carry a recessive allele that may be brought out through inbreeding.

Similarly, is anyone actually studying the death database to see if certain types of morbidity (ie, death due to liver failure, death due to HLP) are related to certain colors or bloodlines? To my knowledge, nobody is undertaking a study such as this. I would be greatly encouraged if somebody is.

Does anybody know of a species of animal where inbreeding *hasn't* been traced back to any health issues?

You are correct that inbreeding doesn't "create" the bad alleles, but it's a well-accepted genetic fact that ALL organisms have SOME deleterious alleles (organisms have "helpful" ones, "harmful" ones, and "neutral" ones), and it's also a well established genetic fact that inbreeding increases the frequency of them appearing in the offspring.

We have decades of genetic research telling us, in multiple species of animals, how to safely breed and why inbreeding is unsafe. What I don't understand is why people think that gliders would be "different" or "safe" to breed this way. It's very wishful but flawed thinking.

Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: BeckiT] #705585
01/04/09 03:09 PM
01/04/09 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted By: BeckiT
But, what if they do get the bad stuff, but don't outwardly show it? How would anyone know until that glider is dead how many years later and (hopefully) a necropsy is performed dunno What if they have it, but are simply a carrier of it, and while they don't show the bad trait themselves, it will be passed down to all of their offspring.


This could happen with ANY glider, not just the colors...

Originally Posted By: BeckiT
As one of the breeders working to breed out the leu line, I hate to see close pairings that almost undo all the hard work some of us are trying to do with the lines right now.


I agree wholeheartedly!


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: Suggiegramma] #705599
01/04/09 03:26 PM
01/04/09 03:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
The sad part is GC is just a sampling of the breeders out there. There are people breeding gliders all over the world that know nothing about our little board here, and could care less about genetics and lineage. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets certainly isn't going to care about where their Leu's came from - they are just going to inbreed to get the color to make money.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: ] #705604
01/04/09 03:34 PM
01/04/09 03:34 PM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
Unregistered
R



I am going to be doing exactly this, study of the death data base ( as soon as I can get the link to work dunno ) I am surprised no one else has mentioned that in this post. Inbreeding is not something I am approving/dissaproving I am just pointing out the realm of research that should take place in any breeding program. clap Applause to those of us who are sincerely interested in this aspect of genetics.

The research has to start somewhere and anyone who is breeding gliders should be checking and rechecking the data base consistently and asking their adoptees to report anything and everything abnormal, alot of work yes, but in the future it will pay off for the greater good. Yes I know not every customer complies with your wishes for info, but this would be a poor excuse for not furthering the studies you already have to work with. Keep track of your babies if you really want to make a difference in things.

I for one will only have a small scale breeding program if I decide breeding is even for me. This way I can be sure to study my gliders and their offspring thoroughly.


Last edited by rbaby; 01/04/09 04:16 PM.
Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: Gossamer] #705610
01/04/09 03:35 PM
01/04/09 03:35 PM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
Unregistered
R



By keeping our names good on this side people will realize their mistakes in buying from places like (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, word of mouth is the most powerful form of avertisement and from the looks of it on info too.

Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: ] #709139
01/08/09 02:48 AM
01/08/09 02:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 168
Maryland, USA
G
Glider_Invasion Offline
Glider Explorer
Glider_Invasion  Offline
Glider Explorer
G

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 168
Maryland, USA
Aimee,
Joey studies & death studies both have been established on here long ago. I think you just haven't been around long enough to have read them. I would venture to say, anything you or other of the newer glider parents would have questions on, you will find here, or more likely in our archived threads, in this case.
But as the more seasoned breeders already know, gathering knowledge as well as "proven", documented evidence, will take a long time. But the more seasoned members are already there. You just need to research it.
Gliderfun, you just have no clue at all! You really need to read the answers given to you. Then read this board for several years for some experience, before speaking out on what you think is a new thought. (I know I did just that). You’re not the first to come up with this idea, & if you stick around for a short while, you'll see - you won't be the last. You sound very new to gliders & it shows.
Diane, shame on you. I would have expected you to know better, and to care more, being in business as long as you have. I agree with Nicole & the others. There is just no reason to take a risk on breeding leuxleu! And you have been around longer than the others to know that, and to understand why. A glider is SO different than a dog. There is no way you can compare them. But you already know this, I'm sure.
I think your words were "Just agree to disagree and let it go". And you stated: "There was absolutely NO evidence to support that there would be major problems with the breeding or I wouldn't have done it." Would you chance that 'major' risk, if it was a human family member?
Well we can't agree to disagree, when it's so outwardly wrong. To most of us, these ARE our family members.
If a small band of you want to inbreed, not one of us are happy to know; you are experimenting with our gliders that we have fought so hard to protect, for so many years.
You all have just shot yourselves in the foot. Who will adopt these gliders from you? Maybe a few others that want a "cheap" or "free" glider?? We all know, you get what you pay for! And when joeys show their defects of inbreeding, your cheap gliders won’t end up being so cheap. But their vets will say a big 'Thanks'! Although their owners won't!
And who will buy their offspring?.. NOT ME! Or do you keep them to inbreed farther?
This makes you no better than (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets or CCW. And we all know everyone’s view on them. So think hard about what you want to do.
I own a leu. AND I will be breeding him. He is being paired up with a WFB, great grand daughter of our very first glider, and a Normal Gray, also from our home where both parents were raised. (as soon as the girls are a yr. old).
This is to breed out the lines, for the betterment of the species. But I will have all healthy babies and be able to sleep at night knowing I have my precious leu, and he is producing nothing but healthy offspring! (it may not be dreaming of all the $$$ as I sleep,) but I will be happy, knowing my babies parents have healthy babies.
So as others have said: We are doing what your 'brainstorm' stated. But good breeding & breeding OUT, doesn't take place over night. Especially since 'we breed adults' & are not just putting babies of opposite sexes in together to allow her to be raped, or to just see what happens.
We are way ahead of you on this.
So you guys calm down & do some more reading, because your questions were already answered, both recently & long ago. Look for a previous post before stating or asking. And do your research first. It’s hard to answer your questions, if it’s apparent you haven’t read the book.
OK, I'm done for now, so Suggie snacks & off to bed for me. Good night all.


Diane

http://www.glider-invasion.webs.com

Happy & Educated Parents, have Happy & Healthy Suggies.
Re: Part 2: Leu to Leu Breeding [Re: Glider_Invasion] #709156
01/08/09 03:26 AM
01/08/09 03:26 AM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
Unregistered
R



Thank you I had no doubt that the studies exists and have been mentioned in prevoius posts just not in this one. I was just having trouble getting the info for the death data base link on GC website, that is all I was talking about. I was told only the results are available, not studies and who to contact for further info. It is wonderful that you will be outbreedind and I am very interested in finding out the genetic connections between disease and coat color if they exist in gliders as I feel this has not been proven or at least documented that I have found dunno . Again thanks to all of you who are willing to be patient with us so called newbies.

But I will say that just because I have not been a member of this forum very long and have yet to live with my gliders, the preparation and care I have put into the research of these interesting creatures does not make me anyless aware of the risks in abusing the common sense knowledge that ethics bring to the table as far as inbreeding and even color mutation to mutation. wink

I will be a very reputable breeder should I decide to undertake this enormous task I already have decided to sell only for pet with very few exceptions of the outstanding specimen. I once had a small breeding colony of dwarf hamsters and they were a huge amount of work, so I can only imagine the amount of time you seasoned vets put into your pets!

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