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Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71804
12/11/05 12:37 PM
12/11/05 12:37 PM

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About the Impressive bloodlines, and a bit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> here, but he also passed on (through maaaany generations, since he was incredibly prepotent) a NASTY attitude. If you've got a mean, biting, kicking, ear-pinning, over-all [censored] halterhorse, you can be 90% sure it's got Impressive a couple generations back. :-p

Anybody notice certain attitudes prevaling in the glider world, especially in certain bloodlines (such as the specific color lines)?

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71805
12/11/05 01:55 PM
12/11/05 01:55 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe there is more differences in the sub species of gliders than we realize.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

...or we're begining to create new species within the captive population. I'm telling you it's evolution happening here and we're witnessing nature take its course. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Exciting stuff!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71806
12/11/05 03:23 PM
12/11/05 03:23 PM
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Ontario , Canada
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Ryark.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Alot of the ear pinning nasty, biting, kicking halter horse stuff doesn't necessarily come from IMPRESSIVE genetics... It comes frome BEING a halter horse. These guys are, in my opinion prevented from 'being' horses, the majorioty of these animals are ' worth too much money' to be allowed to run around in a wide open field like they should be allowed to. They are instead kept in a nice stall, in a closed up barn to prevent injury and therefore 'blemishes' or scars which takes away from their appeal to a judge in the show ring. To further the problem they are fed a high energy diet which creates issues with pent up energy.. this pent up energy emerges as nastiness simply because there isnt anywhere else for it to go. If you walk thru the show pen at a show you will see these animals with some of the most irritating habits in their stalls, weaving, many of them are cribbers, pawing, grazing their teeth on the doors and walls of their pens, etc.

What the judges want to see and what excites a crowd in the show ring is a horse that enters the ring and turns heads - a horse that eneters reared up on two legs does just that, and it has become a desireable thing for a halter horse to do this.. Why do you think stud colts and stallions are shown most frequently in the halter circuit rather than mares and geldings?? Because they are high strung to begin with, with all that testosterone runnin thru them and being cooped up in a stall 24/7 doesn't help.. thus these horses appear to be pig headed, biting, kicking, ear pinning disasters but the poor guys just wanna have some freedom just like any other horse... Also they do not, if you watch them understand how to communicate with another horse, they will either be too afraid of the sight of another free standing horse beside them and shake and cower or else they will go NUTS! Biting kicking etc because they just dont know what else to do.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

I think Mikey himself has made a bit of an observation (correct me if I am wrong Mikey) That Chante has been a bit harder to bond with, she is generally just more aloof with him than his Dante was. Maybe this is her wild instincts coming out and maybe not, its a little hard to tell without other wild caught or recently wild caught blood in the genetics... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> And every glider is different... I just know that with Halter Horses the nastiness isnt necessarily because of their lines.... They are meant to 'IMPRESS" the judges with their strength and believe it or not the wild eyes they get are a turn on for most judges as well..... But just like gliders every horse is different and I think manhy of the bad habits ANY horse gets has alot to do with the past experiences.. but thats another story altogether..

A <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71807
12/11/05 03:45 PM
12/11/05 03:45 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I think Mikey himself has made a bit of an observation (correct me if I am wrong Mikey) That Chante has been a bit harder to bond with, she is generally just more aloof with him than his Dante was. Maybe this is her wild instincts coming out and maybe not, its a little hard to tell without other wild caught or recently wild caught blood in the genetics...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yeah, you're right. bonding is taking a tad bit longer, but I've got all the patience in the world. She certainly is aloof, and is strict with her rules. She was like that with Dante, too! However, yesterday Chante slept in my palm in her pouch for the first time, as long as I kept stroking her (I think she likes to be groomed) with my finger. Her bites whenever she does bite have reduced to little teeth pinches. We're moving along slowly... We'll get there... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71808
12/11/05 03:55 PM
12/11/05 03:55 PM
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Ontario , Canada
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Im glad Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> sounds to me like u r winning her over, my most bonded pair (Pocket and Keyo) Still gimme lil teeth pinches, I thinks it their grooming me back.. Which is not so nice when i've got'em in my top in public.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

U said she likes to be sung to try that as well... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />A


Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71809
12/11/05 05:22 PM
12/11/05 05:22 PM

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I don't disagree that it is possible that there are subspecies involved which may be attributing to the sterlity... but I find it hard to believe evolution could be moving soo quickly... I mean, gliders have only been in the states for a short while (geologically speaking) and evolution is usually on the geological scale...

unless there's a possibility that by having most of our gliders from one country/area we started out with animals that were already on their way to specization...

as for creating sterile hybrids (such as mules and ligers) there I think it is a possible explanation, but I would think that the sterility would be more prevalent. Meaning it would most likely affect more animals than it appears to (I don't have numbers so I'm generalizing) unless of course the white lines have somehow come out in 2 subspecies (though if they're only producing non-viable offspring they'd be upgraded to 2 species)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> on the Impressive bloodlines and personalities... my roomate has a QH with Impressive blood and he's a pistol to say the least... he does western and english pleasure, not halter (though he's huge for what he does) so he gets out and plays... so it may also be a genetic thing that's aggrevated by the environment that the animals are kept in

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71810
12/11/05 05:52 PM
12/11/05 05:52 PM

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It is true, we do lack a good knowledge of the true background of the gliders that we do have.
I'm not clear on what the problems are, aside from sterility (which pretty much only affects certain color lines sparingly), that we are seeing because of this?

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71811
12/11/05 06:12 PM
12/11/05 06:12 PM
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Ontario , Canada
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Like I said.... It isnt necessarily bloodlines but sure some horses are pistols and some arent Ive known lots of impressive bred horses who are dead quiet..It also has alot to do with the Dams lines as well...I find the horses that compete are also miore likely to be exciteable..LOL Obviosuly...Not really that different from humans..LOL


Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71812
12/11/05 06:20 PM
12/11/05 06:20 PM
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Just curious, but how do we know for sure they are ALL sterile?


Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71813
12/11/05 06:29 PM
12/11/05 06:29 PM

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Ern, I think other complications referred to increased health-related issues and a decreasing body mass (in comparison to the original wild ancestor) due to limited genepool, as well.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71814
12/11/05 08:25 PM
12/11/05 08:25 PM

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Again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but I've known multiple Impressive-bred horses, and my trainer has too, that just had a schizophrenic-like personality problem. They are in general quick learners (in my experience) because they are generally very smart. But they have an attitude that makes them strike out at you for apparently no reason and with no provocation. I'm speaking of a Paint I had that was half thoroughbred (which also made her hot) and Impressive bred on her Paint (dam's) side. I'm also speaking of an Appy mare that also had these weird aggressive episodes. They were halterbred (Impressive-bred) a couple generations back, but after that they were pleasure bred for English and Western. I have no doubt that Impressive consistently stamps his get, grand get, and great-grand get with an unpredictable bad attitude, regardless of training or past experiences.

Then again, there are good horses in every pedigree, and maybe some of his brood didn't inherit the personality. But I'd personally look long and hard before ever buying an Impressive horse, even if Impressive only showed up once in the last 4 generations, even if the horse was HYPP negative.

To be on topic a bit, I think that it's quite possible that certain personality traits could be stamped through glider generations as well, other than just what the parent gliders are teaching their joeys. Genetically, I think it's quite possible to breed is more docile or more excitable gliders either specifically looking for those traits, or even accidentally as in the case with Impressive. Yes, that glider is gorgeous, but do you really like to handle it? If not, it probably shouldn't be bred.

(And again, this is all genetically speaking, and if you DON'T handle the gliders, they obviously will be less friendly. But I'm speaking of a glider that bites (not love or marking bites) it's whole life, but it was raised by the breeder and it for sure hasn't been abused. I haven't KNOWN a glider like that, but I'm thinking it could happen.

Thoughts?

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71815
12/11/05 08:34 PM
12/11/05 08:34 PM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />Keyosmama, you know your stuff! Everytime I see something I wanted to reply to you beat me to it. I have an Impressive bred horse, an great-granddaughter to be exact, and she is the most laid back, sweetheart of a horse that you could find and so are her sire, siblings and offspring. She is also HYPP neg/neg or it would be irresponsible to breed her. Something that I don't think anyone mentioned here was one of the reasons that HYPP is a bad thing. These horses that are positive (either with the single or double gene) have a tendancy to drop dead with no apparant cause. I believe this is what brought the gene to light, after Impressive had impregnated hundreds if not thousands of mares. One thing I want to mention is that just because a horse is Impressive bred does not mean that it is going to have a nasty disposition. I will agree that I have met some nasty Impressive bred horses but as time goes on they seem to be getting less prevalent, maybe their "bad attitude" blood is being diluted enough. One more thing I wanted to touch on: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
this genetic disease is soo harmful that the AQHA has/is seriously not allowing any horse from his blood lines to register quarter horse in the hopes of getting the allele out of the population

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This is just not true. As Keyosmama stated if a horse has the gene then it runs the risk of not being able to be registered, but just because it is Impressive bred does not mean that it carries the gene.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71816
12/11/05 10:52 PM
12/11/05 10:52 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Ern, I think other complications referred to increased health-related issues and a decreasing body mass (in comparison to the original wild ancestor) due to limited genepool, as well.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I see the concern, but I don't think that at this point that we could attribute those problems to the limited gene pool? I've had joeys born to smaller gliders that were raised on bad diets, these joeys when raised on a good diet regularly turned into much larger mature gliders than their parents. It seems to me that there aren't that many illnesses and diseases that affect captive gliders as a whole currently, and the majority of these illnesses seem to be attributed to improper diet and improper housing/care.

With the inbreeding of different gliders that are from different geographical regions, I see it as more of a man-made evolutionary branch. I don't feel that the cross breeding is necessarily good nor bad, it's really hard to say, I don't think that it ulimately will have been a bad move. At this point, there are so many variables in the equation. It's really hard to say what's the root cause of the problems that we do see in captive gliders. I do agree that in the future, record keeping will need to be done and genetic issues will need to be recorded and bred out of the lines. I don't think that we are headed towards causing the demise of the glider. Captive Chinchillas are all descended from a small handful of original chins and they gave rise to a huge and primarily healthy population of animals from a very limited gene pool. This is definitely the result of good record keeping, which, after many variables in glider keeping are removed will also begin to yield results and do good for the captive glider.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71817
12/12/05 08:28 AM
12/12/05 08:28 AM
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Charlie H Offline OP
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Ern, a lot of what you say is correct. The big problem I see with record keeping is going to be setting a base to start from. Gliders became so popular in such a short period of time and we have no idea about where they came from. It would be very difficult for a group to set a standard for gliders now. And with the breeders breeding for colors it only confuses the issue even more.

Since we have a couple of horse people I will mention how breeding for color can mess up a breed. The Appaloosa in the old days was a breed developed by the Nez Pierce in the Northwest. These horses had the attractive color with the spots that are so sought after. The present day only resembles the original Apps in that respect. The original horses were bred to be mountain horses and were very sure footed. And believe it or not they were what the old timers called mule footed. Their hooves were more narrow and long similar to a mule. Then the breeders got involved and started a registery and would sign up any horse with the spots on its rear. They introduced the quarer horse blood line into this group and now there are no 'real' Appaloosas left. About the only thing left in common with the original is the name and colors. Now they have a registery for the American Paint Horse which is based on color more than breed. What about the original Palamino? Breeding for color has really messed up the horse breeders and will eventually do the same to sugar gliders. The focus turns toward color and not preservation of a particular breed or bloodline.
Color breeders, don't get the idea I am bashing you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As a group you probably have the best records going for the captive glider. And maybe as a result of your collective work you have the best source for attempting to establish some sort of a breeding standard. But I am afraid the mega breeders have already and will continue to keep this from ever happening.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71818
12/16/05 03:15 AM
12/16/05 03:15 AM

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It's been said that for a group to remain unimbred(Ahh I love the national geogrphic channel) that you need to start with 100 unrelated individuals, be they human or animal. If fifty pairs have offspring, and thier offspring have offspring, the colony can survive for many thousands of years. Its how they plan to eventualy do long term space travel. In dogs and horses, inbreeding was done to extract specific traits, its also being done with cats. You want a short dog with lots of energy with black fur and you have four related dogs all with those traits, you mix and match them and their offspring till you get what you desire and continue to breed those pairs that get you those desired traits to breed with their offspiring as well as the other litters and eventualy, we get out beloved pure-breeds. Its why many pure bred dogs have major health issues and lower life expectancies then a mutt. I see this moving more and more so tword the glider community...I saw a post about the mini-glider and it made me angry. Not to say it wasn't adorible and sweet, but do you really want another novilty among then novilty that they are already seen as? That mini glider may have terrible health problems. Dwarfism in many creatures is painful until it becomes a full-out genetic sequence without the conflicting genes that still tell it to grow. We've used it to make toys, and miniture horses and in that time, there were many horrible outcomes. I'm not saying that all selective trait breeding is a bad thing, and if done properly, it can aid in a more healthy creature, but its takes 100 different indiviuals, unrealted, of that trait to make sure that they are not so intwined that eventualy they begin to have health problems. Throwing a few unrealted plain greys into a color program wouldn't hurt.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71819
12/16/05 02:48 PM
12/16/05 02:48 PM

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Wow. I wonder where that number comes from, Captive? 100, I mean... Is that just a general number or an exact figure? Did National Geographic say that?

See, it's because I do know that different animals handle inbreeding differently, on a genetic level, that is. For instance, the inbreeding of most parasitic fauna like human hair lice or aphids or tapeworms only requires one gravid member to produce a whole colony of healthy individuals. Even animals like every single ant/bee/wasp/termite species for the most part mate with siblings over several generations (with reproductive members here and there mating with members of other colonies in the area, which to certain degree still promotes inbreeding) and produce hundreds of thousands of healthy offspring in their lifetime and have been doing so for millions of years in their existence.

Also, mice can handle (generally speaking, again) a certain amount of inbreeding moreso than humans can, for instance. The ability to handle inbreeding is a necessary asset to their very survival and continuation of their species. I believe the degree to which an organism can "handle" (I don't know what other word to use here) inbreeding may be affected by factors such as 1) the nature of the organism to live in large colonies and to populate an area of a high resources and 2) I'm guessing it's in the genes, too (i.e. the ability to handle inbreeding).

Interesting... It's amazing when you consider how physiologically different many animals often are from human beings. Many animals have evolved to supercede some of the most basic rules ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Have you guys ever heard of the desert lizard species composed of entirely females, which "stimulate" each other to lay eggs, which hatch into more females? Let that sink in your brain a little! LOL. Also, female aphids will clone themselves, giving birth to exact genetic clones. In both cases aforementioned, the process of reproduction is called parthenogenesis).

Actually, having said that, as it relates to this thread, perhaps gliders can handle a little inbreeding better than we think. Out of curiosity now, are gliders considered pests in Australia? I'd imagine they are for Acacia farmers... Are they analagous to mice but for agricultural tree crops? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71820
12/16/05 09:34 PM
12/16/05 09:34 PM
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Captivated...100? Well HELLO KIN!! LOL Guess that goes to show we all are really related! LMBO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71821
12/26/05 01:35 PM
12/26/05 01:35 PM

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Heheh. For humans its 100. Yes, I was watching a show about space travel, and in order to do long term space travel..i.e. Going to another possible planet that can support humans, they would ahve to put 100 people on the ship. A fifty fifty split. Now, it may or may not be different for gliders. But that should atleast give a ball park range... Eventualy, everyone is related in someway, you can't avoid it, and with our populations like they are, more then half of us may share a common relitive from way back when. For instance, my fiance, when you trace his liniage all the way back, is related to Gangus Kon. Now, between then and now, his genetic structure would probably have very little in common with Kon, and probably find it impossible to prove it. Imbreading also has a tendancy to cause genetic mutations.. So, it could very well be essential to have few inbred creatures to cause evolution, because, after all, we would all still be very close to our ape ancestors should those mutated genetics for a larger skull, no brow ridges and an upright posture not been passed down some how. Suddenly, those things became attractive to continue on the traits... Less body hair, ect. Infact, if it were possible, all of us could trace back our family trees to about 5 million primitive human beings...They really started the dispersment of human kind. Liek it or not, like dogs, most humans are based upon selective breeding throughout the years. Small feet in some cultures, thin waists in others, tall, short, blond, brunette. All areas had, once upon a time, a similair look to their people before mass migration began and we became the 'mutts' that we are. Now. I do know that soem fo the things i see happening with gliders aren't so much the genetics, but the politics kept. I have seen people avid about the good fo the glider gush over a genetic mutation and long for it while at the same moment voice their unhappiness about colored gliders being so suaght after. I am not accusing anyone here of that, but I have seen it many times throughout the internet and it disturbs me. I wont say I am innocent of doing this either..I want a bull terrier, and yet I dispise most dog breeding programs because they throw away those that aren't to the standards they had hoped.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71822
12/26/05 01:37 PM
12/26/05 01:37 PM

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To clarify my first post about the human or animal. They were talking about live stock.. not pets heh.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71823
12/27/05 09:06 AM
12/27/05 09:06 AM
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Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline OP
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Mikey asked if gliders were considered pests in Australia. I read one article that stated in a certain area the locals were complaining about gliders raiding their garbage cans. Much like rats in the states in some areas. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
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Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71824
01/11/06 09:20 AM
01/11/06 09:20 AM
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Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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About 10 years ago, Jane, myself and a few others got into this discussion.. we looked at the gliders more like tribes.. bear with me on this ..

We looked at them as tribes, much like our American Indians, each tribe has their own set of Characteristics, demeanors, markings, lifestyles etc.. some also will not breed outside of the same tribe.

keeping this in mind, what Charlie is saying is correct, the same as the dogs, even those that are considered purebred. the "crossing of the ""breeds"" to create a specific Look also runs the risk of destroying other favorable characteristics. but also since different "tribes" have different demeanors, what will happen in the end to the metamophisis, or to the nasty demeanors that are coming out? will we end up creating our own set of "frankenstien gliders" or gliders that are so neurotic/psychotic that while we sleep they wake to rip their cages apart and eat us?

as insane and exaggerated as this sounds, it may not be too far down the line, where the cuteness is bred to become the watchdogs, that they are in the wild, for our homes.

Money being the root of all evil, has hit the glider community.. to breed for color isn't about anything but money. The faithful, gray that tore our hearts out, that got a hold of us and drug us into a new lifestyle will be as hard to find in 20 years, as the plats are today..

As for the sterility.. I say go for it, continue to create the monsters, make them all sterile, Breeding should not be a favorable charactistic anyway.. Then when they die off, we will be right where we all started 20 years ago.. gliderless.

I wouldn't trade my 2 grays, for 10 White Face blondes.. after all I have "originals" no morphing needed.. just add love..

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71825
01/11/06 10:35 AM
01/11/06 10:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,382
Kentucky
B
Badgersmommy Offline
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Posts: 1,382
Kentucky
agreed Bourbon. We have all greys..6 of them. They are happy, we are happy! They are truly the love and joy of my life..and I wouldn't trade them for anything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71826
01/11/06 10:57 AM
01/11/06 10:57 AM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Money being the root of all evil, has hit the glider community.. to breed for color isn't about anything but money.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Money isn't what drives all breeders... I personally am offended by that statement, being that I own a large amount of color variation gliders. I breed for the joy of having a joey. May the joey be a WFB or a gray, I will still love it just the same...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As for the sterility.. I say go for it, continue to create the monsters, make them all sterile, Breeding should not be a favorable charactistic anyway..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I also don't think it's right to call sterile gliders monsters. They can't help what they are... Also, if breeding were such an unfavorable charactoristic, you wouldn't have any of your gliders either. It goes both ways.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71827
01/11/06 02:22 PM
01/11/06 02:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
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TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
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Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Money being the root of all evil, has hit the glider community.. to breed for color isn't about anything but money.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I have to respectfully disagree with that statement! I only breed WFs; IMO there's more than enough grays in rescue, and although I do know it's coming, I have not seen a WF in rescue yet.

I do not breed for money. Anyone who knows me, knows that. I have two WF male joeys right now, that I've turned down at least 12 homes for. The home I chose, that I really adore and think is the best for them, I offered them to her for free. Unfortunately she turned me down (which just reinforced my opinion that she's the very best home, because she did NOT say, "ooh free and worth a lot of money, gimme"). I have plans to have the male in that trio neutered, but unfortunately buying a running car is going to have to come first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I'm getting another WF male sometime in the near future (as soon as he's paid for), and he will be neutered also. If everything goes well, I will have 5 WFs and two grays that are non-breeding, and only my 3rd gen pair left breeding. If I truly cared only for money, I'd have a lot more pairs, and the boys I have now would already be in a new home. I think the WFs are stunning, and mine have both beauty and absolutely wonderful personalities. I do not want to own (or breed for that matter) a mean glider of any color.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
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Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71828
01/11/06 02:52 PM
01/11/06 02:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
First of all, it is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.

With that being said, I think the statement made about some breeders being in it just for the money is a very fair statement as SOME are. But this is not only for the color gliders but also for the standard greys as well. I know of several people that will breed and breed and breed and allow their greys to keep producing and keep selling the joeys no matter what the age or shape of the mother glider. I personally think that as a good respectable breeder, you should limit the amount you allow your glider to breed and produce and once they have hit that limit, do not just *discard them* and find them new homes because they are not *breeders* any longer. After all, they should be pets first.

If you pull up websites on gliders, there are many different ones out there, you have your mahogany gliders, your white tip gliders, your standard grey gliders, and so on....and these are in the wild....

I just think that putting everyone in the same category as being in it just for the money or the mutation is wrong, personally, and think everyone that does have joeys, whether as a hobby breeder or a full time breeder should take a look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves, "Am I allowing this one to breed so I can make a quick 150 to 500 dollars to pay my bills, or because I love having a joey being born and once my girl has had a couple I will neuter her male and they will than remain with me forever as my beloved pets that I originally bought them for."

Working together, educating one another and helping one another learn and understand is the only way we are going to be able to help our gliders out.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71829
01/11/06 07:05 PM
01/11/06 07:05 PM

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I think that those are some harsh predictions for gliders of the future.

Demeanor is something that is partially related to genetics. The crossing of subspecies of gliders and the inbreeding of gliders will not certainly end with nasty gliders. The genes have to be there, then the inbreeding or crossbreeding will create nasty gliders. Responsible breeders should be taking note of the personalities of their gliders and they should NOT be breeding nasty gliders.

I think that a huge problem in the world of gliders and what will ultimately be a problem for gliders is overpopulation of gliders. Greys will never be scarce. Most people don't neuter their gliders or sell their gliders neutered and just let them breed at will.

I'm just not sure what the big problem is with what we've done to captive gliders by cross-breeding sub-species? It's not much different than an African mating with and Asian. We don't abhor that and call it wrong because they evolved in different areas. Sure, there is gonna be a genetic mix-up which could result in a genetically superior child, or there could be one with problems. When breeding any animals it's a gamble unless you pay attention to detail and are mindful of what you're pairing and why.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71830
01/11/06 07:33 PM
01/11/06 07:33 PM

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I must say I never thought I would see racial tension in the glider world ha-ha. It is never good to make such general statements as "to breed for color is just about the money", that is kind of harsh. I am waiting on two cinnamon males not for money but because I prefer the cinnamon color variation more than the grey. I have never had babies before and want to enjoy that aspect at some point (yes i know my males won't do it alone! I have my eyes open for a female ha-ha). When I am able to breed I will probably breed the cinnamon with another glider of similar color to have that color in my babies. It is not to breed for money but it is for the simple matter that I bought the type of glider I have the greatest preference for and yes, their babies will look the same, unless the milk mans glider sneaks in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> To your credit the grey glider is what brought me in to this world but now I expanded my knowledge of the species and a small preference developed. That is what makes me who I am and you who you are, preference <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> OH, I do love topics that spark emotion such as this, thanks for the post! No hard feelings here.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71831
01/11/06 09:21 PM
01/11/06 09:21 PM

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Yes Jeff, I thought that was a little harsh aswel - but at the same time, the avrage gal/guy isn't dealing with as many color variations as some of our large scale breeders. We might have a WFB here or a cinnimon there, but we're not dealing with over $1000 gliders.

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71832
01/11/06 09:34 PM
01/11/06 09:34 PM

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Quoting mikey in the first page </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
So how about it breeders? What measures would that entail? How much money would that cost, and are people willing to pay that for the sake of diversifying the bloodpool for our little ones and our little ones to come?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Mikey, first of all it would require a class C exhibitors license, as it's illegal to import for strictly "pet trade" you would also need a import license, we'd have to look into what the quarentine regulations where in the U.S.
I would really like to get some australian sugar gliders.
I would guess to be SAFE and make SURE you're getting what you put your money into, it would require a personal pick up and shipping arrangments. This would mean some one would have to go to australia, indonesia (or where ever else) to get them and bring them back. Now, I am applying for my class C USDA this spring, as some of you know - to do animal education with exotics. I think it would be very interesting to obtain some of these "wild type" gliders, not only to use for regulated breeding, but to study in general. They would be wonderful for education aswel. Now, at this point in time I wouldn't have the money to travel all over getting gliders back into the US. But withen the next three years once I get my savannah breeding program up and running and hopefully can sell some kittens to good homes, I might have enough funding to do something outragiouse like this. And by that time I will actually have my exhibitors license, will be doing educational tours and programs and will have proof that I'd be using the specimens for educational purposes.

-Kiki

Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ] #71833
01/11/06 10:17 PM
01/11/06 10:17 PM

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Kikster, I think that is wonderful! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> My buddy, the arachnologist, has that license, too. It's how I get my hands on some of the most exotic bugs...

Kikster, I hope that really works out! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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