GliderCENTRAL

Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate?

Posted By: Anonymous

Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/12/06 09:39 PM

After taking part in a discussion about gliders and UTI's, (which can be found here), I have decided that it might be a good idea to at least look into the possibility of changing the calcium used in glider diets from Calcium Carbonate to Calcium Citrate, and wondered if anyone could help me in doing so.

Calcium Carbonate is an alkaline based calcium, and is the form of calcium used in both BML and Darcy's diets. In the afore mentioned thread it was suggested that the cause of gliders hissing when they go to the bathroom could be because they're suffering from the passing of phosphate crystals, and not necessarily a UTI, although it is possible that one could lead to the other at some point. It was stated that perhaps it was actually an excess of calcium that was causing these phosphate crystals to form, due to an overly alkaline diet, which would actually make it more difficult for the body to absorb the calcium properly to begin with. It seems to me that it may not be the calcium itself, but the FORM of calcium used that's causing the problem, hence my interest in looking at changing which form of calcium is used.

I know that, in humans, Calcium Carbonate is more difficult to absorb, and that, while slightly more expensive to buy, Calcium Citrate is often considered as a better way to go. Calcium Citrate is an acidic based calcium, and as such it is an easier form of calcium for the body to absorb properly. If these phosphate crystals are in fact a result of an overly alkaline diet that is in turn causing calcium absorption problems, then switching to Calcium Citrate would help because an acidic calcium would be more readily absorbed, would help to keep the overall diet less alkaline and more balanced, and would help to keep excess calcium from building up and causing the urination problems to begin with.

I am not an expert on nutrition, and the reason that I know about calcium is that I’ve got osteoporosis in my family history and it’s something that I personally want to avoid, so it is something that I have done some research on. I know that it not advisable to alter any proven diet without discussing the possible change with that diet’s creator first. I have sent a PM to Bourbon asking for her help in this matter, but I am not certain how to go about contacting the creator of Darcy’s; I also do not know how many other diets may be using Calcium Carbonate instead of Calcium Citrate, however because Calcium Carbonate is less expensive than Calcium Citrate I would not be surprised if most of the current diets used Calcium Carbonate as their calcium of choice.

My goal here is not to bash any diet on any level; my goal here is to find assistance in looking more closely at which calcium supplement is more appropriate, not which diet, and all comments should be directed on that level because I think that this is a very important aspect to examine, and it’s not something that I know how to do by myself, so if this thread is shut down then we may all suffer. Please, if you have anything constructive to say on this issue, or if you think that you might be able to offer me help or advice in my quest to further examine the possible use of Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate, your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/12/06 10:01 PM

Here is a contact for the Darcy's diet. I'm not sure that she created it or it was created for Darcy " her glider with Cancer " Good luck and by the way I just love reading your posts, you are so well spoken and thought out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> []saharanfox@hotmail.com[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/12/06 11:02 PM

Thank you for the email reference Carrie T; I've just finished sending her an email about this subject, and I will let everyone know what the outcome of that email ends up being.

Once I thought about it, I realized that I've seen saharanfox on the boards before, but for some reason I simply hadn't put two and two together, so I'm glad that you were able to help me with that. (I am also glad to know that you enjoy my posts! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/12/06 11:02 PM

I had the same thoughts about types of calcium. I looked on the internet about which one was easier to absorb,and thus would be less likely to build up etc. and have been using calcium citrate for several months now.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/12/06 11:41 PM

I am also not a dietician, but was understood that the citrate forms a calcium channel for absorbtion, and due to that they absorb too much once the channel is created....

I don't know how or why or anything, just what I heard. I'm a telephone man, if it don't ring I don't know why it works <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: North_Nocturne

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 12:24 AM

One of my gliders is less than 5 months old and already having UTI problems so I'd love to find something that might help with those issues and be a more effective calcium supplement.

I've also been looking into replacing my Repcal with a calcium citrate product. I've done a lot of searching but haven't found a calcium supplement made for animals that is calcium citrate. Has anyone else been able to find it? I couldn't find powdered calcium citrate at any local natural food stores but found a few sources online with a google search.

To anyone who is using calcium citrate, what exact product are you using and where do you get it?
Posted By: the gliders angel

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 12:24 AM

in australian wombaroo s \calcium carbonate but not as much as in bml. maybe its best to just use half the amount.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 12:31 AM

I use "NOW" Calcium Citrate powder 100%pure, 8oz. bottle from a herb shop for $6.95.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 01:12 AM

How much calcium carbonate is used for gliders in Australia? (per day)

How much Calcium Citrate would a glider need? That is only sold for human consumption I thought. ???
Posted By: angelic4296

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 02:53 AM

I posted this in the UTI thread referenced above, but I'll mention here too since this seems to be relevant...I've had kidney stones since 2001, and have passed probably close to 40 stones (swear to God, I know that sounds bizarre), made of both calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate. One of the main medications I've been put on is Bi-Citrate. Citrate, as mentioned above, not only helps with the ABSOPRTION of calcium, but is one of the things that PREVENTS stones from forming in the first place (this is the human body keep in mind). I've been wondering the same thing about the source of calcium we;re currently giving our gliders and if calcium citrate might be a better option...
Posted By: the gliders angel

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 05:22 AM

i dont know how much is in the wombarroo high protein mix but i do no in australia all the vets dont use calcium at all. they say if fed a balanced diet they dont need it. why i dont know. one zoo there uses calcivet a bird calcium supplement. but in the wombarroo its not up there as the first ingredient. but it does have the carbonate calcium and one important mineral for gliders called selenium and vit e which i think is missing in out gliders diets.
Posted By: KattyM

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 06:10 AM

At least some of our diets have considered these ingredients. The wheat germ in the BML recipe, for instance, has vitamin E. Here's a thread with a breakdown: A Nutritional Analysis of the BML Mix.

Wombaroo milk in PML has selenium (Pockets Modified Leadbeater's). Ensure for Darcy's has both vitamin E and selenium. I haven't researched them, but just from a quick search, you might find some interesting reading. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 12:19 PM

Some things to consider when switching calcium supplements. The RepCal and most forms of calcium carbonate are only 35 to 40 percent calcium. Of that only about 10% is absorbed by the body. Calcium citrate is about 2.5 times more absorbable than calcium carbonate. You would have to see what percent calcium the citrate supplement is and do a lot of math to figure the dose to use.

This is the plain calcium carbonate and calcium citrate. If you will notice both forms can be purchased with vit d added. This would alter the absorption rate of both but no one knows how much. Also so much stress has been placed on the C/P ratios. Should the ratios be altered when changing calcium types. If so. How much? Also these diets do not ever mention the effects of magnesium which is as important to the ratios as the calcium and phosphorus. One must also take into consideration all the other minerals supplemented. Another important factor is whether you are feeding a low protein or high protein diet. Also consider that you are changing from an alkaline to an acid based supplement. Since the glider relies very much on bacteria in the ceacum and large intestine for proper digestion what effect will altering the system from alkaline to acid have? IMO the acid would kill off or severely alter the bacteria if used over a period of time.

Calcium carbonate is cheap to manufacture and there is an abundance of it available. As a result the public has been overwhelmed with the advertisements for it so it became the calcium supplement of choice. Sort of like the media saturation for soy products. Does not mean these are the best choices but if you can convince the public you have established a billion dollar business. Enough of that!

But remember when choosing calcium supplements to do all the research you can. And filter through it. The people selling the various products will tell you the part they want to promote their sales. Quiet often they neglect to mention the adverse side effects.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 06:11 PM

KattyM – I did find the post you found to be rather interesting; unfortunately since part of the main premise of that post was that they didn’t want to modify the RepCal in any way, it’s not as helpful to me as it might be, but I do think that I’ll do some more archive searching as well, and I appreciate the suggestion.

You’re right Charlie, there IS more to consider than just which form of calcium you prefer. Different forms of calcium do have different absorption rates, and that HAS to be factored into the equation.

I have been able to find a .pdf document that gives me a chart on, among other things, the absorbability of several different forms of calcium supplements. The chart includes information on the approximate percentage of Elemental Calcium in each calcium form, the approximate percentage of Absorbable Calcium in each calcium form, and the Approximate Solubility (mM/liter) of each calcium form. The chart covers Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Citrate, and Calcium Citrate Malate, so it's a good place to START, but there are a LOT of other things to look at as well. (The chart, btw, can be found here.)

I want to do more than just replace one form of calcium with another in my own processes and call it a day; I want to understand how the calcium interacts with these diets as they are currently prepared. My goal is to make sure that, if I (or anyone else) decide to switch from one form of calcium to the other, a reasonable amount of the Calcium Citrate is being added instead of a disproportionate one, and that whatever might otherwise be thrown out of whack by making such a change is being properly compensated for. This is exactly why I am attempting to ask the creators of these diets directly

I know that I need to have a better understanding of how Calcium Citrate specifically interacts with other foods and minerals, specifically so I can figure out any possible negative side effects and find out whether or not they can be compensated for. (On the other hand I’m not sure that the Calcium Carbonate is necessarily completely safe either, since apparently supplements made from oyster shell may contain metals and lead in levels that are considered dangerous for small children.)

Let me be clear - I don’t want to recommend anything to anyone without understanding the implications better than I currently do, and for that I need to do a LOT more research, and I need to talk to someone who truly understands how each diet has been formulated and exactly what role the current calcium supplements play. I don’t know enough to be able to answer most of these questions at this point, but I do think that it’s important to investigate this further.

I know that it may not be possible to fully understand what all of the side effects of switching from one form of calcium to another might be ahead of time, and that so much of this, like anything else, will be trial and error. In the end the question will be whether or not each person feels that the possible benefits outweigh the possible negative effects.

If anyone else is as interested in this as I am, I suggest that you may want to do some more research of your own as well; different people tend to search for things differently, and as such you may be able to uncover helpful information that I won’t. This is a mighty big undertaking, and I would appreciate all the help I can get!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 07:13 PM

Charlie and Riverstone, at THIS time, which Calcium are you using?

I use the Wambaroo HP (Leadbeater's mix). I also give yogurt to my suggies. I was adding Vionate vitamins/minerals and sprinkling Calcium Carbonate on the corn. With ALL the foods I feed already, I am really thinking this is going overboard with Calcium. Veggies, fruits, yogurt, Wambaroo HP, licky treats, yogurt drops, baby foods, eggs, chicken. Then on top of everything fed, adding MORE Calcium and vitamins. I personally do not believe our suggies really need all the SUPPLEMENTS of calcium/vitamins most of us give! I have nothing to base this on except my own COMMON SENSE. After reading article after article for YEARS all over the internet, the calcium debate just gets more and more confusing. (as the total diets do also)

Our gliders do NOT live in the wild. Therefore, I believe they do NOT need AS much as they would be getting in the wild. We have suggies that are spoiled lazy bums. LOL They don't have to do a thing cept sleep, eat, play. Their metabolism is different than gliders in the wild.

Our gliders already have a MUCH longer life span than those in the wild too. I realize however much of the death rate in the wild may be due to accidents, fights, injuries and humans destroying wildlife.

I am very curious also as to what TYPE of calcium gliders actually are getting from foods in the wild. I give mine Acacia Gum, Bee Pollen also. There again, more calcium.

But what KIND of calcium does the natural diet contain?
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/13/06 10:09 PM

Riverstone I read the article you posted the link to. I must say personaly I was not impressed. Before using any of the figures they list I think you should do more research. Some of the statements are very misleading.

The more you read about calcium the more you will realize how little is actually known about it. It makes me very nervous when our 'experts' tell us what type and how much of a mineral supplement to add to a glider diet. And as in the article in the link furnished by Riverstone how can you possibly determine the absortion rate of calcium without factoring in the complete diet? Also they state that calcium carbonate is mined. Some is but not all. Did they ever read the label on the RepCal? Also a statement about calcium disolveing in water. Putting ground up oyster shell in water does not disolve it. After all it has lived in water all of it's life. You must have an acid based liquid.

I will not suggest what type or how much calcium shoul be added to any diet. But I will tell you that some of the things we have been told is incorrect. For instance we are told not to worry about giving a glider an excessive amount. It is said that any excess calcium will be passed through the digestive and urinary tract. This is not a true statement. Part of the excess calcium is stored in the heart, kidneys, and the fatty tissue of the liver. We once tested a glider's blood and found five times the amount of calcium that there should be. Of course this was not the norm because the glider had been receiving extra calcium to treat HLP but it goes to show that the calcium is not being passed as previously thought. If the blood had all this extra calcium wonder what was happening with the cells. It took a few months for the gliders system to level out so that she did not crab at the slightest touch or movement.
Charlie H
Posted By: the gliders angel

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 12:40 AM

as i said before in australia no calcium is used they are agaisnt it for supplementation. my new glider has been on a fresh diet for a yr now never had calcium but get a little wombaroo hp on her food and the days she dont get wombaroo she gets high calcium yogurt.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 01:15 AM

You know what; NEVER MIND.

All I was trying to do was to say that I wondered if a different form of calcium MIGHT be a better solution; it was something I had been curious about for some time, and I thought that maybe if I asked I could get a little help in looking into the situation because I freely admit that I do not have enough knowledge at this point in time to say whether or not this is a good idea. I was hoping that, between my looking everywhere I could think of to try and better understand calcium in its different forms and how it relates to gliders, and having other people who were willing to help me do so, then maybe I could eventually be capable of competently answering my own question of whether or not Calcium Citrate would be a better alternative to Calcium Carbonate in glider diets.

Unfortunately, with the exception of the very few, nobody seems to want to do anything but tear my theory apart and tell me that I don’t know enough; well, if I knew enough I wouldn’t have had to ask for help to begin with, would I? I have spent two solid days now looking through information on calcium, and I’m not coming up enough helpful information to help anyone answer any of their questions, INCLUDING myself. You may not like the chart Charlie, but unfortunately it’s the ONLY ONE I’ve been able to find so far, so it’s REALLY HARD for me to tell whether or not it’s correct because I don’t have anything to properly compare it to, which is one of the reasons I put it out there to begin with.

If you’ve ever wondered why so many people are so hesitant to talk about their diets or the modifications they’ve made or are thinking about making, THIS is why. Maybe it was ridiculous for me to have asked this question in the first place, but at least I was willing to do so out loud. How can anything ever improve if we’re all too scared to ask the questions that need to be asked for fear of being torn apart? How can we ever hope to benefit from the knowledge and experience of others if we all just keep our thoughts and ideas to ourselves? If the ultimate goal is a better understanding, how can that ever be achieved if we’re never given the tools we need in order for that understanding to take place? I know that too much calcium causes damage, just as too little does; I know that to acidic a ph balance causes problems, just as to alkaline a ph balance does. What I don’t know is how changing from one form of calcium to another is going to affect these balances in gliders; and I guess if nobody’s willing to help me with this then I’ll never be able to find these answers, because I don’t have the tools I need to properly figure this out on my own. I’m sorry I had the audacity to be interested in having a better understanding of the role that calcium plays in a glider’s diet; I didn’t realize that wanting to know more was a bad thing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 01:37 AM

Riverstone,

I really don't think anyone here is trying to bash you or the research you are doing. I think you are amazing for trying to better our understanding of diets as a whole <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> and I Thank You for your time, effort and dedication.

As with any discussion there are going to be different points of view and conflicting information. The process of going through all the information is how we learn and it helps spark new thoughts and ideas. I hate to say it but I am one of the large group that find it hard to grasp all the details and complications of this type of diet discussion so I tend to read and absorb as much as I can (which can be limited <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />).

Because I don't have anything benificial to add to your findings I will stay out of the thread and try not clutter it up. I feel this is how others feel and it really is not that we are not interested in what you are doing... we are trying to respect you and the others contributing.

So please please don't feel badly... and I'm hoping you don't drop your research as you have no idea how much you are helping the community by trying to figure things out.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 01:43 AM

I agree 100% with what Lorna said. I've been very interested in this thread as it could be something that could help our little guys in the long run. However, since I don't have the knowledge to add anything, I too have stayed out to avoid cluttering up the thread. Anyway....... Please don't stop looking into this subject or posting about what you have found.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 02:10 AM

Actually, Riverstone's reference is quite accurate.

I know you have problems with the word "expert" Charlie and at times I do too, but as it relates to this thread, I should point out that although you are correct in stating that oyster shells are composed of Calcium Carbonate (btw - Random fact of the day : Cocolithifores are other marine organisms that also have calcium carbonate bodies, infact purer than oysters), you are incorrect in your suggestion that the majority of the calcium carbonate we use comes from ground oyster shells. Most of the industrially used calcium carbonates do indeed come from mining and quarrying. You see, oyster shells themselves contain other elements that pose problems with the isolation of the calcium carbonate molecules, and when you consider some of the uses for calcium carbonate (paint additives, chalk, health suppliments, etc) it is important that they keep any trace elements to its lowest, plus having to separate such trace elements is an expensive and highly involved ordeal, and simply impractical compared to traditional methods of calcium carbonate acquisition.

Actually, I remember wanting to bring that up in past debates where you mentioned about oyster shells and calcium carbonate, but always forgot to bring it up.

The process involves taking it from a pure source (from mining/quarrying) like marble, or by passing carbon dioxide through a solution of calcium hydroxide. This is something we learned in first year university CHEM 101. I could provide you further information if you like. Also, calcium carbonate can dissove in water, however the process is slow.

I do agree that it is difficult to determine an amount for calcium when we aren't aware of all the factors, but what diet are we questioning in particular where calcium is giving hundreds of gliders the same consistent health problems attributed to calcum overdose?

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 02:32 AM

Having said that, I fully support Riverstone in doing research about this all and being compelled to post about it.

Charlie, I understand that several times you have brought this very thread up for discussion suggesting that calcium citrate should be used to replace calcium carbonate, and it lead to some interesting discussions and the collection of other relevant topics and concerns regarding this.

Though, I agree that there is so much we still have yet to discover on these guys regarding diet, it's not all mystery when you've done ample research, and I'm not talking about simply reading a highschool book on nutrition, but an in depth review of diet and all other topics that involve it (e.g. medical, biological, ecological, etc) and really no one has any real, sound argument until you've done that research. As I continually keep saying, scientists in Oz have the answers and have done the research, and much of the "expert" publications and info they promote is exactly that "expert".

In that sense, I think it's perfectly acceptible that people ask questions and make suggestions freely on these boards; they're doing research.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 03:38 AM

Riverstone was asking a question, she asked for peoples input. She even had said that she "was no expert." And she put that chart on not saying that it was all truth, but that "it was a good placce to start."
Posted By: angelic4296

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 04:21 AM

Riverstone,
I respect what you're trying to do. I hope that you continue your work as it could be beneficial to all gliders owners, no matter how long you've been a part of the glider world. Please keep us all informed because there are those of us who would deeply appreciate the information. Unfortunately, I am not very science-minded (I have a Master's degree in Counseling, not Biology lol) so I can't be of much help...however, I would invite all those who ARE good in the scientific/mathematical areas step forward and join this constructive discussion and help Riverstone out.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 05:21 AM

I wasn't really thinking about not looking into this any further, because for the life of me I can't help but feel like I really need to understand this whole calcium thing better; I was more looking at maybe just shutting my mouth, but if you guys actually WANT to know about what I'm trying to do and how I'm going about trying to figure it out, then maybe I won't keep my mouth zipped after all - I do admittedly have a pretty hard time with that sometimes anyway, so. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I should state that this is probably going to take me a long time to figure all of this stuff out; I’m not blessed with a background like Mikey’s or Charlie’s, unfortunately – all I’ve got going for me is a strong analytical mind that doesn’t seem to work much like other people’s, and a gnawing feeling in the back of my mind that keeps insisting I find some sort of a solution to this puzzle, no matter what that solution ultimately happens to be. (Well, that and guilt – Flop [Flip’s mate] had the hissing-while-urinating problem, but it was never properly taken care of because I was told that if he’d always done it then MUST be normal for him, and I was dumb enough to believe that, and I’m convinced that the problem had something to do with his eventual death, which I can’t prove because my cousin wouldn’t let me get an autopsy done when he died, and they are technically his gliders and not mine so I couldn’t force him to do so, but I kinda feel like if I can figure out this whole calcium thing so that I can understand it better, and then if I can eventually help other gliders so that they don’t go through the same thing, then maybe I can atone just a bit for not being able to save him; and, since I’m really good at guilt, that makes it even harder for me to not want to give up on trying to make sense of it all, so.)

So I guess I’ll keep working and this, and see where it leads me; I do truly appreciate the support.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 07:09 AM

Oh my, Riverstone. I didn't know your glider had died... My condolences. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Because it's you, and I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> you, I'll stay up until 3:30 AM to type this out.

To tell you the truth, the calcium stuff isn't as complex as most make it out to be. Understanding calcium in a diet is really an understanding of the principles of not only nutrition but other related topics, and your experience with osteoperosis is already a good base background knowledge on much of it. It's a start.

Where to start?

Well, let's begin with the glider. Ecology...

I understand that gliders naturally come from a part of the world where soils (for the most part) tend to be rather calcium-rich, and hence due to simple movement of materials through the foodweb, much of the flora and fauna also have relatively high amounts of calcium in them. The plant materials the gliders feed on should be high in calcium. This would mean that the gliders should biologically have a lower calcium absorption rate than a flying squirrel would here, simply because of the abundance of the calcium. I feel this right here is the cause of most of the calcium-attributed health complications like HLP, because the gliders who have evolved over millions of years in the calcium-rich lands never had a need to absorb a lot of it to meet their biological needs (i.e. bones/teeth, muscles, blood, nerves), and suddenly when they are captivate here in North America, and their foods don't contain the high calcium amounts their bodies are biologically used to, then you run into gliders that suffer from calcium deficiencies, e.g. Hind Leg Paralysis (HLP).

Now, a biological standpoint...

As you may know, the form in which calcium exists is an important factor as to how much is absorbed. A priciple called BIOAVAILABILITY describes the readiness of a substance to be absorbed and used by the body according to the form the substance is in. As it relates to calcium then, as was mentioned earlier, because calcium citrate may be easier for the gliders to absorb, perhaps not as much calcium citrate is needed as calcium carbonate. Also, in nature, gliders absorb much of their calcium from acacia gum, and it's simply a source of calcium from which the gliders have evolved to draw much of their dietary calcium. Calicum existing in other forms (e.g. calcium carbonate or citrate) other than its form in acacia gum, means there's a different absortion rate, which poses more problems when trying to figure out just how much calcium suppliment we should add to their diet. It also explains why we would be experiencing a complication with UTI's in gliders on high doses of calcium carbonate because it's simply a foreign form of calcium that the glider's digestive systems are not readily used to digesting in high amounts.

In terms of an opinion of Charlie regarding calcium citrate being acidic and hence killing the bacteria in their large intestine and caecum, I feel that may also be inaccurate. Gliders' digestive systems like most animals are designed to accomodate both acidic and basic food stuffs and fluids. Several glider-safe fruits are just as, if not more acidic than calcium citrate.

Also, speaking of the caecum, marsupialogists believe the caecum is the site where fermentation occurs for the further break down of acacia gum and it is thought to promote further nitrogen absorption. The process of fermentation generally involves relatively acidic products. In my opinion, the microflora wouldn't be much affected by any calcium citrate, which during the digestion process gets broken down and coverted into other more "digestive-friendly" calcium substances anyway.

Now, a chemical and nutritional standpoint...

The reason why we place a whole deal on calcium and phosphorus ratio is because they require each other and in many animals (including humans) that ratio is 1:1, i.e. for ever mg of calcium, the body would require the same amount of phosphorus. In nature and natural sources, calcium and phosphorus usually occur together in that 1:1 ratio. When you provide a lot of phosphorus in a diet, the body simply draws calcium from the bones in order to pair it up with the phosphorus (Why? It has to do with more biological stuff where calcium is required to have phosphorus pass through the intestine membrane, but PM if you'd like more info on that).

Now the applications...

So going back to what I mentioned about gliders naturally having a lower rate of calcium absorption, the issue of bioavailability, and the calcium phosphorus ratio, it's truly difficult to say how much calcium citrate one would have add to the gliders' diet because:

  • 1) We don't know how much calcium the glider would absorb from calcium citrate, so we don't know how much calcium citrate to suggest to add to the glider diet.
  • 2) The amount absorbed would have to be an amount that matches (and perhaps exceeds a little over) the amount of phosphorus and not less.
  • 3) At the same time we don't want to overdose the gliders on calcium, because calcium in excess is indeed toxic.


Also, Charlie brought up the importance of magnesium which is certainly true. Magnesium is required for calcium absorption and directly affects the rate at which calcium is absorbed. It's another factor that should be taken into account. Also, it should be interesting to note that the consumption of sugars induces the passing of magnesium out through the urine, which in turn would lead to calcium deficiencies. Perhaps all the sugary foods and fruits we give our gliders as a staple are increasing the chances of calcium-attributed health issues (and this is something I've seen suggested in several publications and articles, regarding fruit-based diets and deficiencies).

It's all a guessing game really. There are simply too many factors to consider. It literally is like "ROCKET SCIENCE" and I feel those who created diets may be like NASA. They did the math, the studying, the research, and built a rocket and crossed their fingers hoping it would land on the moon. People have created diets (having done or having NOT done the ample research) for our gliders and hoped for the best, many successfully rearing what appear to be healthy gliders (indicating they have relatively correct amounts of nutrients). Some glider diet-makers have better "ROCKETS" than others, though.

If you're really interested in finding out the role of calcium in glider nutrition I urge you to read Marsupial Nutrition by Dr. Ian Hume. He really puts things into perspective and I attribute a great deal of my knowledge on glider diets to that man and that world renowned, scientific publication.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 07:53 AM

Wow Mikey! I would LOVE to have your brain! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any idea HOW MUCH Acacia Gum gliders consume in the wild? I sprinkle the Acacia on my gliders foods every night and they LOVE it. Since it is a major (?) source of thier calcium in the wild. I'd rather give them the gum than be sprinkling calcium supplements. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 08:21 AM

I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> you too, Mikey! Thank you so much for neglecting your sleep long enough to give me that analysis; not only did it make a lot of sense to me, but it's also given me a much better idea of what it is that I really need to be looking at, and as such I have a much better idea of what directions to start searching in. Just because the premise is simple enough, it really doesn't mean the answer is, does it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far at the book recommendation goes; my local library (which is actually linked to a bunch of libraries throughout the county I live in) doesn’t have that book (or even anything remotely close to it), it seems to be out of print, and used it seems to be selling for about $65, so do you think that I could maybe borrow your copy or something, depending on what the shipping rates are? Because I’m not sure how else to get my hands on it, and I would LOVE to read it!

(Also, because I know that you love to change your quotes, I think I have the perfect one for you right now - "The important thing is not to stop questioning" -Albert Einstein.)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 01:32 PM

this is one of my concerns too and I haven't jumped in yet, but I'd love to know hwo much calcium is ACTUALLY in Acacia gum powder as we use it now, because I take it as a supplement myself and have for a long time, as well as because of how it influences the gliders.. I'd rather use that then the other calciums in their diet if I thought the amounts would be appropriate for their dietary needs.. I worry about overcalcification as well as undercalcification for our babies on a regular basis... and can't wait until next week when I have my Marsupial Nutrition book that came in- Bill won't make it to pick it up until Fri or next Monday...

Amie
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 03:00 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As far at the book recommendation goes; my local library (which is actually linked to a bunch of libraries throughout the county I live in) doesn’t have that book (or even anything remotely close to it), it seems to be out of print, and used it seems to be selling for about $65, so do you think that I could maybe borrow your copy or something, depending on what the shipping rates are? Because I’m not sure how else to get my hands on it, and I would LOVE to read it!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

LOL Actually, I borrowed Big_Ern's copy and though I was only supposed to keep it for a few weeks to a month or two, I ended up holding onto it for a whole year or so before sending it back to its rightful owner (sad day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) and for that I am ashamed. LOL.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 04:45 PM

Riverstone since you have an interest in calcium research here is a link that might interest you:

http://smartlifeforum.org/2004/06/newsletter.html

I will not respond to Mikey's post just for the sake of debating but will say that the medical use and effects of calcium is not simple. It is a very complex subject that even the leading researchers in the field of medicine do not understand or agree on. And probably never will. Too many variables.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 05:33 PM

FOr those trying to find that book, if you can log into your library's card catalog and go to World Cat (the system they work with right now is having...issues...so be patient with this process) it will search every library around that world in that system for the book. Some where must have it so a few of us should be able to find it.

just the title and author is fine for this search, btw.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/14/06 06:35 PM

Okay, so now I'm really curious - if calcium has SO MANY variables, not only in its different forms but in how it's absorbed by the body and how other elements can effect it's absorpion rates, then how did the current ammounts of Calcium Carbonate in the BML and Darcy's diets get established as the appropriate ammounts to begin with? How did the idea of what was enough calcium in ANY of the diets come about, really? Was it a trial and error sort of thing, a best guess, an effort to keep the calcium phosphorus ratio at what they hoped would be 2:1, a combination of all of the above, or something else entirely? Did they look at tests stating that the c:p ratio of gliders in the wild was "X", and then went about mimicing it? Was it a best guess based on other animals of similar size that they had more information on? Was it simply an increase over previous diets in an attempt to curb problems like HLP? I can think of all sorts of possibilities as to what information you might draw from to make thsoe sorts of decisions, so I'm really curious as to how that all came about in the first place. Does anybody know?
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/15/06 12:02 AM

Maybe Mikey can explain it to you!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
To tell you the truth, the calcium stuff isn't as complex as most make it out to be. Understanding calcium in a diet is really an understanding of the principles of not only nutrition but other related topics, and your experience with osteoperosis is already a good base background knowledge on much of it. It's a start.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/15/06 12:13 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay, so now I'm really curious - if calcium has SO MANY variables, not only in its different forms but in how it's absorbed by the body and how other elements can effect it's absorpion rates, then how did the current ammounts of Calcium Carbonate in the BML and Darcy's diets get established as the appropriate ammounts to begin with? How did the idea of what was enough calcium in ANY of the diets come about, really? Was it a trial and error sort of thing, a best guess, an effort to keep the calcium phosphorus ratio at what they hoped would be 2:1, a combination of all of the above, or something else entirely? Did they look at tests stating that the c:p ratio of gliders in the wild was "X", and then went about mimicing it? Was it a best guess based on other animals of similar size that they had more information on? Was it simply an increase over previous diets in an attempt to curb problems like HLP? I can think of all sorts of possibilities as to what information you might draw from to make thsoe sorts of decisions, so I'm really curious as to how that all came about in the first place. Does anybody know?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, like I said previously...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

It's all a guessing game really. There are simply too many factors to consider. It literally is like "ROCKET SCIENCE" and I feel those who created diets may be like NASA. They did the math, the studying, the research, and built a rocket and crossed their fingers hoping it would land on the moon. People have created diets (having done or having NOT done the ample research) for our gliders and hoped for the best, many successfully rearing what appear to be healthy gliders (indicating they have relatively correct amounts of nutrients). Some glider diet-makers have better "ROCKETS" than others, though.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I'm pretty certain most diets out there were established through trial and error and informed estimates (key word here: "informed" and not simply blindly put together). There's really no way one can mimick the diet of a glider in the wild on this side of the planet (especially considering the fact that actual components of glider diets vary cross-regionally), but there are many diets out there that come close and some that have proven to be perfect replacements (e.g. HP Wombaroo).

Perhaps you can email Bourbon about BML and/or contact the maker of Darcy's Diet for exact methodologies for the determining of nutrient amounts, but I'm certain a great degree of it involved some creation based on informed estimates. I know Bourbon has perfectly sound reasons for using every ingredient in her diet. I think it's obvious that with any diet, depsite the amount of research that goes into creating it, it's the test of time that will prove its efficiency.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/15/06 07:17 AM

Just a silly thought, but animals such as dogs and cats (any domesticated animal for that matter) were all wild at one time. We feed them commercial foods for the most part and they do live to be in upwards of up to 20 years. We know the average life span of gliders in the wild is app. 5 to 7 years. (?) It seems to me that we have surpassed that, app. doubled that actually already. Diets such as BML etc. have not been around for that long, so people have either been lucky or feeding them what they need already.

Here's a thought. HOW can we "perfect" the diet of a Sugar Glider when we can't even get the human diet right?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/15/06 10:34 AM

True. I don't think there is a "perfect" diet. Every Sugar Glider is different, just like people. What is good for one may not work for the next.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/15/06 03:20 PM

The human diet will never be perfect for a variety of reasons, mostly due to fades and media but that's another rant, however, this isn't about perfecting the glider diet, this is about improving it to prevent UTIs and crystals from forming.

If you don't have gliders prone to it and your little guys are fine with what you're feeding it...don't worry about it. However, just like you should feed lamb and rice to dogs that have sensative tummies, gliders sensative to the imbalance of calcium and phosphorus may need to look into this option. There's nothing wrong with researching the topic, even if it's a lost cause.

For all we know the absorbtion rate of calcium citrate may be so much increased that it should only be used as a senior diet or something to that degree. THis isn't an attempt to perfect the glider diet, just give it a little improvement.
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/16/06 07:43 AM

I'm pretty much staying out of this and just reading...I am NOT a dietician by any stretch of the imagination!

Do consider that with say, cats....they have been human companions for over two THOUSAND years (first in ancient Egypt)...that's a lot of time to learn about an animal's needs-and even their diets are still changing and improving. Gliders have been pets for, what-maybe 15-20 years, maximum? At least here-slightly longer in Japan, I'm told.

It NEVER hurts to discuss these topics. Crystals and UTI's aside (and some crystals are okay-certain types, as long as there aren't too MANY of a "normal" crystal...that's when it hurts, and more crystals tend to form in urine that is alkaline in PH-the more alkaline...the more crystals, esp. in combination with an infection), lack of calcium causes HLP...too much can cause stones and other problems. So it is to our little guys benefit to discuss the issue...even if the first 100 times we discuss it, we end up back at square one. If you give up...the race will never be won.

This and many other reasons is why I have in my signature...The Truth is Out There...no one ever said it was easy to find, though.

I am enjoying reading and thinking about it, even if we don't end up at a solution. But if no one ever talks about it, no one will think about it, and then we won't have a 'some day' when someone says "Wait a minute...if X=Y...then Z!" and a solution presents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/16/06 01:51 PM

Xfilefan, I must say <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> !

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/17/06 12:23 AM

Hi guys; sorry I’ve been absent from my own thread the past few days, all I can say for myself is “thank you Fibromyalgia, yet again!” ANYWAYZ. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lingling and Xfilefan have it exactly right; in this instance the idea of looking more closely at the possible use of Calcium Citrate as an alternative to Calcium Carbonate isn’t about finding that ONE perfect diet for all gliders; it’s about looking specifically at the problem of why some gliders seem to have such problems with urinating, and then trying to find a good solution for that particular section of the glider population. If we can end up understanding these causes and effects better, then maybe that will lead to other things at some point in the future, but the only way to know for certain is to be willing to look at it to begin with.

Most of us on these boards have come to understand that calcium and phosphorus are important ratios to keep in balance when it comes to our gliders, but because some have asked what the heck I'm talking about with alkaline and acidic, and why that should matter, I think I'd better explain it a bit better - maybe then my line of thinking will make more sense to those who might be just a little confused at this point.

You’ve probably heard people refer to the “pH balance” of certain things? Well, that’s basically what we’re dealing with here. Very basically, pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution. It is measured on a scale of 0 to 14 -- the lower the pH the more acidic the solution, the higher the pH the more alkaline (or base) the solution. When a solution is neither acid nor alkaline it has a pH of 7, which is neutral.

In order for Calcium to be properly utilized in the body is best absorbed in an acidic environment, but because Calcium Carbonate is alkaline based it requires extra stomach acid for proper absorption. If the overall diet being fed is causing the body’s ph balance to be too alkaline to begin with, then the Calcium Carbonate is going to have a very hard time of being properly absorbed, and it’s probably only increasing the problem of an overly alkaline system, which is then, in turn, creating an environment where certain UTI bacteria can flourish – or at least that’s my theory behind all of this. The IDEA is that, if you can replace the Calcium Carbonate with Calcium Citrate, which is an acidic based calcium and doesn’t need to have the additional acid in order to be properly absorbed, then perhaps you can start to bring the system back into check so that the glider is properly utilizing the calcium it’s being given, and the urine is no longer an such an inviting environment for the infections to grow in.

If you’re wondering what I think MIGHT be causing SOME gliders to be suffering from an overly alkaline diet, I think it MAY have SOMETHING to do with the fruits and vegetables we feed them. See, MOST fruits and vegetables are considered alkaline. Even foods such as orange juice and lemon juice that start out as being acidic will turn alkaline after they have been metabolized in the body, and as such, for dietetic purposes they are usually considered to be alkaline despite being acidic prior to consumption. So, IF the COMBINATION of fruits and vegetables AND an alkaline-based calcium are in fact causing a pH imbalance in certain gliders, then changing the form of calcium to something acid based might be a good solution. This is WHY my theory is what it is, and WHY I want to look into Calcium Citrate as a possible means of fighting this type of occurrence in those SPECIFIC gliders with this specific problem. Does that make more sense to everyone now?

I still have a LOT to go through before I can determine if all of my theories are correct, and even MORE to go through before I can say whether my solution is appropriate, or even how much Calcium Citrate should be used to replace the Calcium Carbonate even IF everything else factors out correctly, so I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT ANYONE MAKE ANY CHANGES BASED ON MY THEORIES AT THIS TIME!!! The ONLY reason I’ve outlined what it is I’m looking at is so that everyone will have a better understanding of exactly what I’m looking at right now and why – just so we’re clear.

Mikey – I actually DID send a note to both Bourbon and Saharanfox already asking them about the possibility of substituting the Calcium Carbonate for Calcium Citrate in their respective diets, but I haven’t heard anything back yet. On the OTHER hand, I MAY not have made enough sense in my initial contact letters (you’ve heard how I talk sometimes – that confusion can sometimes translate into my writing style when I’m not clear enough in my own mind about what I’m asking!), so it might be a good idea for me to write another letter to each of them, making sure that I make as much sense as possible this time. Also, because I’ve recently realized that the Suncoast diet ALSO uses Calcium Carbonate, I’ll send them a letter as well asking them about the possibility of such a substitution in their diet as well.

It may very well turn out that only one or two of these diets can be successfully converted to using Calcium Citrate, or it may turn out that none of them can; we’ll just have to wait and see.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/17/06 02:46 AM

I did just find something that says that "most of the bacteria responsible for urinary tract infections make the urine more alkaline because the bacteria split urea into ammonia and other alkaline waste products." But, I've also seen stuff that says that the bacteria that grows in urine is more likely to thrive in an alkaline environment, which I guess would make sense if that's the type of environment that the bacteria tend to create for themselves. So at this point I'm really not sure if it's the fruits and veggies and alkaline calcium that are causing the initial alkaline environment, or if they're just feeding into the problem once it occures, or exactly what might be going on.

So much to read, so much to learn, so much to figure out!
Posted By: angelic4296

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/17/06 05:16 AM

ooooo keep going Riverstone, I'm sooo interested in what you're doing!
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/17/06 06:50 PM

Riverstone I think you have some good theories. But do not expect to get any quick answers or a solution to the questions about calcium. Although it has been posted that the research for answers about calcium is not complex. The topic has been researched for years and there are still no reasonable answers. It seems that everything a human eats or drinks effects the amount of calcium that should be included in the diet. The amount and type of protein, amount of vitamin d, amount of phosphorus, magnesium, to name a few. Alter the amount of any one of these and the whole formula is thrown off. Not to mention the ph of the diet. Plus it is not understood how different species metabolizes calcium.

There is a lot of speculation about calcium sources but it is just that. We do not know that sugar gliders even need to be supplemented with a calcium source. Many animals thrive quiet well without supplements and no insects or other small animals for calcium or protein sources.

I applaud you for your interest and research about calcium for sugar gliders but do not expect any quick or definite answers. In no way am I trying to discourage what you are attempting to accomplish. Just trying to explain how frustrating it can be. Mostly all you will get are undocumented theories and opinion.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/18/06 10:59 PM

Riverstone--
Another quote from Albert Einstein: "If we knew what it was that we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?"

Sugar gliders are a very resilient species. Personally, I feel there IS no "one right way." I doubt any two gliders in the wild eat the exact same ratios of the exact same foods. Darcy's vet's advice is "small amounts of a large variety."
Calcium citrate may well be better than calcium carbonate. The only experience I've had with calcium citrate was in the form of a liquid which the gliders refused to touch, even mixed into Ensure. If they won't eat it, it's worthless.
If the powder you have isn't bad-tasting, and can be sprinkled or mixed into food, then--if you feel the risk is worth the gain--go ahead and try it. Cranberry juice (highly acidic) has been shown to lower the chances of UTI. I give my gliders cranberry juice every couple of weeks or so.
I agree with Mikey, however; the absorption rate for calcium citrate is likely different than that for calcium carbonate. High calcium levels can produce muscle tremors and over time, can actually mineralize internal organs, including the heart.
I calculated the amount of calcium to bring the regular Ensure up to a bit above a 2:1 ratio calcium:phosphorus, to allow for the high phosphorus in most protein sources.
None of my gliders hiss when peeing. The only warning I have is the raised tail, and sometimes not even that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have heard them hiss while pooping, but not often, and usually only Demon or Darlene, who could stand to lose weight.
Riverstone, don't ever quit asking questions, even if nobody can answer them. Those are the ones you learn the most from! Thanks for pointing out this thread for me, I'm curious what you'll find out.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/19/06 03:40 AM

Riverstone: So, I'm sure it will be safe to say, I'm glad that I'M not the one that has to go through all this research! We all want what is best for our wee friends, all we can do is sometimes the best we can do. I applaud you on your efforts to find desirable answers to such undesirable problems. I know I certainly will be one of the lackies routing in the stands.

Charlie, I'm glad your here to keep everyones feet planted on the ground!

Mikey, all of us appriciate the well formed laymens terms you type out for us. I have myself learned much that I had already heard, but not fully processed, from you.

That said, I bid you adieu,
I'm going back to my nosebleed seats, thankyouverymuch.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? - 06/20/06 12:31 AM

Yes, I totally get that I've chosen a monster of a task to tackle, but then again I've never been very good at making things easy on myself, so I guess that's just par for the course with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Charlie, I don't honestly expect that any of this will be easy, or that I'll get to "the bottom" of anything any time soon, so I promise not to get my hopes up too much - on the other hand I don't think that it really hurts any to take a closer look, if only to have a better understanding of it all, and if I do happen to come up with something of value then that's even better.

Thank you saharanfox for letting me know how you calculated the calcium in Darcy's - that actually helps me a lot to understand what you looked at when you were figuring that diet out. I promise that I do understand that the two calcium’s will most likely have different absorption rates, and that I will do my best to keep that in mind no matter what I'm looking at or trying to figure out because I know that too much calcium won't be any better than too little!

I’ve got to get Flip in for her six month check-up soon anyway, and I’m planning on switching from our current vet to a new one who I think will know a LOT more about diets than my current one does, and should be more open to discussing them, so I’m going to see if I can spend some time talking with her about all of this as well. I’d like to have that perspective in the mix in addition to everything else – I really want to be as careful and as thorough as possible with all of this, so.

I did also want to take just a minute to explain a few things that I've found out about cranberries, since I know that a lot of people use cranberries to try and ward off UTIs, and I think that some people might think about using them on gliders. Cranberries are one of the few berries native to North America, and they do seem to help with UTI’s; however, different scientists seem to think that they work for different reasons. Some say that the cranberry works because it’s acidic AND it has properties that help to keep bacteria from sticking to the bladder wall, while others believe that it is ONLY those properties that keep bacteria from sticking to the bladder wall that help, and that the acidic nature of cranberries has nothing to do with it. In either case, in order for cranberries to be of help they must not be digested in something like a cranberry cocktail or a cranberry fruit blend, because the sugars in those drinks will counter the effects of the cranberries and only end up making the problem worse; that leaves strait cranberry juice, cranberry extract, or cranberries themselves that must be ingested in order for them to be beneficial.

The problem with cranberries is that they include something called tannins. Now, while the tannins are believed to actually be part of the reason that cranberries can keep bacteria from growing in the bladder, they can also negatively affect an animal's feed intake, feed digestibility, and efficiency of production, which can also be a problem. In addition, I have also read that levels of tannins above about 5% of the diet are often lethal, except in animals like poultry and swine, which often have problems with levels over 3%. And, since gliders probably haven’t developed any sort of tannin-binding agents that would allow them to eat a larger ammount of tannins (since I don’t think that they’re natively exposed to them), you’d really have to be careful how much cranberry a glider was given, as well as how often it was given. Now, I’m not saying that an occasional bit of cranberry or cranberry extract would necessarily be a huge problem, especially if you've got some real UTI problems going on, but just please be careful about how much cranberry you give, what form you give it in, and how often you give it – just to be safe.

The more I look at it, the more complex it all seems to be getting – oh well, back to the salt mine I go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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