GliderCENTRAL

Differences between vitamins?

Posted By: Anonymous

Differences between vitamins? - 02/10/05 07:27 PM

Okay, this is not a diet post or a post ment to ruff up feathers, but I was really curious how everyone felt about vitamins. There are several diets we can use as glider parents and several ways to get nutrients into our gliders.

There's also the debate on reptile vitamins.

And what about "glider vitamins"? What are they really? Does anyone know? And how safe are they?

And what would be the purpose to sticking with reptile vitamins versus glider vitamins?

I was just thinking about it the other day and just got really curious. I'm on a proven diet, but am more interested in the vitamin side of things and what the differences actually are between the vitamins that we have to choose from.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/10/05 08:51 PM

Nihm, they have a "Glider Vitamin" suppliment available? What's the name of the product and the company?

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 12:21 PM

I have to use a reptile supplement as they don't have glider supplements in the UK, I have started to use Gliderade though (also not available in the UK) which they seem to love! If there are 'proper' glider supplements I'd love to know about them - net surfing time!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 02:09 PM

ok - i found some
http://cvexotics.safewebshop.com/glider_vitamins.html

http://sandman972.safeshopper.com/4/80.htm?216

http://home.earthlink.net/~boakes1/pixiedust.html

It doesn't give any information about the products though!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 02:43 PM

Also, Glidercal and Gliderbooster which can be bought at Exotic Nutrition, I think?

I was also wondering about this subject, too. How does using different vitamins in BML throw it off? (Don't worry...I follow BML exactly)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 04:08 PM

See that's the thing, I follow BML exactly too, but I'm curious as to why if there are glider vitamins available, that we aren't using THEM for our vits. I know this is a Bourbon question, I'm sure she'll be along soon.

But the other thing I'm really curious about is what is the difference bwtween rep. vits and the Glider vits? Or are they just relabeled Rep Vits? Or relabeled Marsupial/mammel/etc vits?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 04:22 PM

I believe Bourbon mentioned that they chose the RepCal and Herptivite suppliments specifically for use in BML for two reasons. First, it's because they allowed for the working with the Vitamins and the clacium suppliments separately so to obtain a lower dose of the vitamins (1 teaspoon of vitamin per 2 teaspoons of clacium). Second, because the Rep Cal incorporated Betacarontene for Vit A, which is safer because the body derives Vit A from the betacarotene as the body needs it, as opposed to being stored in the liver until the body needed it.

Also, with mammal vitamins, different mammals require different doses and even among vitamins for specific mammal species, the doses are inconsistent.

I'm sure Bourbon will come along to further elaborate and address perhaps your concerns!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 07:24 PM

you did very well explaining it mikey..

I have similarily the same problems with glider vits , glider-booster, glider-cal as I have with other suppliments, sadly the BML, is the only diet that has actually been dissected and explained thoroughly, as to why we use what and why.. I wished that others would do the same with their products.

therefore without knowledge of the product in detail, I can not and WILL not in clear conscience advocate substitutions within the BML.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 07:34 PM

Is there anyone who knows a bit more about the glider specific vitamins? I know at one point we had discussed that some of them were simply relabeled mammel vitmins.

I wonder if anyone who sells glider specific vitamins would be willing to come along and explain their vitamin. Where it came from, how it's mixed and if possible how the vits are absorbed and used by glider bodies as Bourbon has done.

Doesn't Pracilla price mix and sell her own? I'd be curious what the different stats are on the nutrients contained in SG specific vits. Anyone got some at home with the stats on the back?

I've got repcal and herptivite at home, we could make a comparison at the least.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 09:49 PM

Why don't you contact Priscilla directly. I am sure you would answer any questions you have?
www.thepetglider.com. She doesn't do the forum thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/11/05 11:54 PM

I emailed Pracilla, Hopefully I'll get a break down and can compare it to the reptile vits stats.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/12/05 06:13 AM

ooh ooh if you get that let me know. PM me if you dont post it, i have always been curious to know what the pet glider vitamins are. I considered strongly going with that diet, but when considering the price of the vitamins and not knowing exactly what was in it i decided not to. The instructions are to sprinkle them on top of food and that the gliders eat the vitamins first because they taste good. Does anyone have any they would be willing to taste and let us all know what they taste like?? Supposedly its a 'human grade multi-vitamin' so what is it? crushed up fruit flavored children's chewable tablets?? who knows?!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/14/05 03:52 PM

I emailed Pracilla. I'll admit she seems a bit reluctant to give me a breakdown. I think she's worried I plan on useing it as amo against her diet. This is not the idea.

Agaon remember we are not looking to bash a diet here, just curious people wondering if we can improve our furbutts diets. So please, as this thread continues, try to be respectful.

As soon as I hear anything from her I'll post what I can.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 01:29 AM

If this </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Agaon remember we are not looking to bash a diet here, just curious people wondering if we can improve our furbutts diets. So please, as this thread continues, try to be respectful.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
was directed at me I am sorry you misunderstood my tone- easy to do when type has no tone. I truly am interested in the diet she developed especially the vitamins. Because no break down is given I was just curious to know what exactly it is. You have to admit in this day we love labels and want to know exactly what is in some things. Every diet has slightly different breakdowns when it comes to the vitamin supplement and i was curious how this compared.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 02:58 PM

Oh no no no Angie! I wasn't really directing that at anyone in particular, just a reminder for the future!

I am still trying to get the information we are seeking from Priscilla. I'll admit that at this point she has not been very forthcoming with any info. I'm a label lover too Angie, and it bothers me that no one has asked these questions and gotten answers.

Anyone know where to buy Glider Booster or if that one has a nutritional breakdown label on it???? If anyone has it would you be willing to post the nutritional label?

Thanks guys!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 03:17 PM

I would be interested to know the difference between glider vits and reptile vits also, we don't have glider vits on sale in the uk, so it would be good to know if it's worth importing them, if they're just reptile vits with the label changed then I wouldn't bother (obviously!!)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 05:19 PM

I don't have the labels for analysis, but this is where you can buy them:

http://www.exoticnutrition.com/Glider-Supplements.htm

Sorry I couldn't help more!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 06:06 PM

Great THANKS! That's what we wanted! Now we'll see if they will give us breakdowns.
Posted By: SJTSimmons

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 06:41 PM

I use Priscilla's diet and got out the Vit's. Here is what the package says
The Pet Glider

Sugar Glider: Multin Vitamin & Multi Mineral, Calcium, Nectar, Bee Pollen, Probiotics, and Herbs and Acacia Gum.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, this is as much as it's broken down on the package.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 07:20 PM

Cool thanks!
I am actually trying to get the vitamin break down from Priscilla. We'll see if she ends up letting me see it or not.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 07:23 PM

Here's the Repcal and Herptivite breakdown:

Rep-Cal
100% Natural phosphorus free oyster chell Calcium Carbonate
Ingrediants: Calcium Carbonate
Vitamins d3
Calcium Min 35%
Calcium Max 40%
Vitamin d3 Min 400,000 IU/Kg

Herptivite (Per Kg)
Vitamins
Vitamin E – 5,500 IU
Choline – 4,400 mg
Niacin – 3,300 mg
Inositol – 2,530 mg
Ascorbic Acid (vit C) – 2,200 mg
P-Amino Benzoic Acid – 1,100 mg
Thiamine (B1) – 880 mg
Riboflavin (B2) – 550 mg
Vit. B6 – 550 mg
Beta Carotene – 440 mg
d-Pantothenic Acid – 330 mg
Folic Acid – 33 mg
Menadione – 22 mg
Vit. B12 – 3.85 mg
Biotin - 0.44 mg

Amino Acids
Alanine (0.62%) – 6,193 mg
Arginine (0.58%) – 5,808 mg
Aspartic Acid (1.03%) – 10,263 mg
Cysteine (0.27%) – 2,717 mg
Glutamic Acid (1.32%) – 13,167 mg
Glycine (0.35%) – 3,487 mg
Histidine (0.23%) – 2,321 mg
Isoleucine (0.54%) – 5,445 mg
Leucine (0.64%) – 8,514 mg
Lysine (0.64%) - 6,391 mg
Methionine (0.38%) – 3,773 mg
Phenylalanine (0.59%) – 5,907 mg
Proline (0.39%) – 3,872 mg
Serine (0.69%) – 6,864 mg
Threonine (0.46%) – 4,554 mg
Tryptophan (0.17%) 1,650 mg
Tyrosine (0.40%) – 3,971 mg
Valine ( 0.70%) – 6,974 mg

Minerals
Calcium min (2.2%) – 22,000 mg
Calcium max (2.3%) – 23,000 mg
Phosphorus (1.1%) – 11,000 mg
Salt min (0.13%) – 1,320 mg
Salt max (0.14%) – 1,385 mg
Magnesium (0.01%) – 99 mg
Potassium (0.17%) – 1,650 mg
Sulfer (0.55%) – 5,500 mg
Copper – 165 ppm
Iodine – 38.5 ppm
Iron – 3,850 ppm
Manganese – 330 ppm
Zinc – 330 ppm
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/15/05 11:04 PM

I would imagine that Pricilla is reluctant to give out the information we are seeking because this is something she developed and in all honesty makes money off of. (We've seen similar concerns here with pouch design, only it's a lot easier to see how a pouch is made and copy than a vitamin supplement.) If the breakdown were given it would make it very easy for a glider owner to feed her mix and supplement with different vitamins. Which would also be easy to do incorrectly throwing some things off and making the diet unbalanced. So there are probably several reasons. I made up her mix once, but didn't realize that the vitamins had to be purchased special from her. My gliders LOVED that mix. But I switched them off solely because of cost...ramble ramble ramble. I think im done. Still looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 02:35 PM

Surprisingly enough for some people as this will be, Priscilla has given me a break down!

Now keep in mind when looking at this and looking at the Rep Vits that we aren't trying to make a play by play comparison here. If someone else would like to take that on feel free, but my goal for this post was simply to get an idea of what the differences might be, so that those of us in the "common world" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> can have a little bit of a better understanding about vitamins.

So here is Priscilla's vitamin breakdown:

Breakdown per 7 tablespoons Pet Glider Vitamins

VITAMINS & MINERALS

Vitamin A 15,000 IU

Vitamin C 1,000mg

Vitamin D2 500IU

Vitamin E 400IU

Vitamin K 5mcg

Thiamine B-1 25mg

Riboflavin B-2 25mg

Niacin 100mg

Choline 100mg

Inositol 100mg

Vitamin B-6 25mg

Folic Acid 400mcg

Vitamin B-12 25mcg

Biotin 25mcg

Pantothenic Acid 25mg

Calcium 1,125mg

Iron 9mg

Phosphorus 200mg

Iodine 180mcg

Magnesium 200mg

Zinc 15mg

Selenium 50mcg

Copper 0.2mg

Manganese 4mg

Chromium 50mcg

Potassium 100mg



AMINO ACIDS

Alanine 196mg

Arginine 256mg

Aspartic Acid 297mg

Cystine/Cysteine 60mg

Glutamic Acid 424mg

Glycine 163mg

Histidine 71mg

Isoleucine 135mg

Leucine 274mg

Lysine 146mg

Methionine 117mg

Phenylalanine 167mg

Proline 170mg

Serine 165mg

Threonine 123mg

Tryptophan 48mg

Tyrosine 147mg

Valine 160mg

Also includes:
-Calcium sup approved through the FDA
-nectar, bee pollen, milk thistle for healthy liver function, probiotics for the immune system and for better absorption of nutrients, and Gum Arabic (from the Acacia species) a carbohydrate high in calcium

Any math genius who can give us the amount of Kg per tablespoon would be really helpful!

Thanks guys!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 02:37 PM

Here's a link to the vitamins in the Exotic Nutrition system. No breakdowns on this one as far as I can find so far.


http://www.exoticnutrition.com/Nutra-Glider.htm[/url]


Can anyone think of any other places that sell glider specific vitamins?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 02:39 PM

Interesting... Now, where is Randy and his calculator?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 07:19 PM

We have per kilogram on the other vits right?? Problem there is one is weight and one is volume. You could just assume that they are approximately the same weight per volume but this will be really interesting to figure out.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 07:47 PM

Hm.... interesting. Math is not my strong point so if someone wants to take that on feel free.

My goal here was mostly to see how the vitamins vary, and as far as I can tell they have 85-90% the same stuff in them, it's just the amounts that seem they may vary considerably.

There also are not a list of Minerals in the Glider Vits that Priscilla has, but some of those minerals ARE found in the Exotic Nutrition Vits.

Anyone feel free to jump in a put in a better analysis. I've only gotten to really glace at it, since I'm at work all day.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 07:58 PM

In regards to ExoticNutrition...

UGHHH I'd do the math but I hate working with ounces... You Americans... when will you guys convert to the SI metric system like the rest of the world?! LOL. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

OK... well the volumes can simply be converted to approximate masses by way of ratio using the total weight of the entire product (i.e. 10 ounces). That's the easy part.

However, this wouldn't be enough since these calculations can't be compared to the rep vits merely due to the fact that the rep vit figures are much more precise and although calculating the masses of substances in the nutra-glider from the provided percentages (that are also approximations) would give approximate figures, they would definitely not be fit for comparison with the rep vits. You can actually determine very little from the information provided by the exoticnutrition stats. It's quite vague and is almost rather evasive still (e.g. "added mineral"? That acounts for nearly 70% of the materials listed in the reptile vit list).

There are more substances in the nutra - glider than those listed, and because the figures of such missing substances are not listed in the percentage breakdown, it makes for a great deal of calculation error. They don't provide the public with percentages either because there is such a miniscule amount in there, they don't know, it doesn't exist in there, or they do not want to reveal the stat.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

PS - Did you say you needed kg per tablespoon conversions of all of Pricilla's substances? Wow. They're going to have to be expressed in SI units, i.e. scientific notation - I can tell you that much. I think I'm missing something... Why do you need the figures converted to kg per tablespoon?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 09:28 PM

We don't necissarily need kg to tablespoon, just a common figure to go from to make the compairison. the first vits further up in this thread were given in kg. Pricillas was given in Tablespoons, so we just need a common denominator if you will to do the compairison
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 09:50 PM

Duh... I just got it... If someone doesn't do the calculations then I'll be able to help out with calculations later tonight when I am more free. The calculations seem pretty straight forward.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/16/05 10:01 PM

Yes, The Rep Vits are per gram I think
And Priscilla's vits are in Kg but are per 7 tablespoons.

Like I said, actual math calculations are up to someone else... I stink at math, and truly abhore it with all my being, but someone else can feel free to take off with the info and do a comparitive analysis.

I think all new info is good info, since we know so little anyway. As long as it is presented as truthfully and non-bias as possible!

My goal was just too visually see what was in one that wasn't in another, etc.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 04:44 AM

The rep vits are per gram or kilogram? Also I need to verify: IU stands for Internation Unit, which describes an arbitrary amount of a substance agreed upon by scientists and doctors... but I forgot... *banging head* so is that still considered grams in this case? How is IU used again...?

I'm doing the caluclations now but I need these questions answered first.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 06:27 AM

For the Herptivite it says per Kg. I tried to find what i could about IU and I found that 1 IU will vary from substance to substance. This web page fortunately has the measurements for the three vits we would need it for- Vits E, D and A.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Examples: 1 IU represents 45.5 micrograms of a standard preparation of insulin or 0.6 microgram of a standard preparation of penicillin. Consumers most often see IU's on the labels of vitamin packages: in standard preparations the equivalent of 1 IU is 0.3 microgram (0.0003 mg) for vitamin A, 50 micrograms (0.05 mg) for vitamin C, 25 nanograms (0.000 025 mg) for vitamin D, and 2/3 milligram for (natural) vitamin E.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I know it's best to link to other sites, but just to make thinks a smidge easier I did put this quote from my link above. I hope that is OK.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 06:37 AM

Thanks, angelafx. Another problem.

Ahhhh! I don't have a weighing scale! Can someone please weigh a tablespoon of Herptivite for me? I need to know approximately how many grams of Herptivite are in a tablespoon? Or atleast how many tablespoons of powder are in a full container of Herptivite (if anyone has access to an unopened container)? Thanks.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 06:43 AM

I can weigh the tablespoon, but as for the whole container, I don't have one right now. be back in a minute with the numbers... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 06:45 AM

well, it's 10g
I didn't pack it, I just scooped it loose and levelled it.
Hope that helps. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 06:50 AM

Oh BTW I think that the reason that Priscilla was reluctant to give the actual recipe to her supplement out is because she is supposedly working on getting a patent for the vitamin mix she sells.
That is cool that she gave a vitamin breakdown <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 07:26 AM

OK, I've decided to calculate the figures of Pricilla's Vits to the units: mg/tablespoon (simply because kg/tablespoon would involve way too many zeros on the screen and there is no superscript option so unfortunately I can't express the calculations in scientific notation) and they are rounded to two significant digits.

I did Pricilla's vits first because the calculations were the easiest.

Anyway, here they are. Feel free to correct any errors. i converted all the IU figures to total mg. I converted all mcg (micrograms to mg) and I simply divided it by the total number of tablespoons, namely 7.

Pricilla's Vitamins:

Vitamin A = 0.64 mg/tablespoon

Vitamin C = 142.86 mg/tablespoon

Vitamin D2 = 0.0018 mg/tablespoon

Vitamin E = 38.06 mg/tablespoon

Vitamin K = 0.000 071 mg/tablespoon

Thiamine B-1 = 3.57 mg/tablespoon

Riboflavin B-2 = 3.57 mg/tablespoon

Niacin = 14.29 mg/tablespoon

Choline = 14.29 mg/tablespoon

Inositol = 14.29 mg/tablespoon

Vitamin B-6 = 3.57 mg/tablespoon

Folic Acid = 0.057 mg/tablespoon

Vitamin B-12 = 0.0036 mg/tablespoon

Biotin = 0.0036 mg/tablespoon

Pantothenic Acid = 3.57 mg/tablespoon

Calcium = 160.71 mg/tablespoon

Iron = 1.29 mg/tablespoon

Phosphorus = 28.57 mg/tablespoon

Iodine = 0.0257 mg/tablespoon

Magnesium = 28.57 mg/tablespoon

Chromium = 0.0071 mg/tablespoon

Potassium = 14.29 mg/tablespoon

AMINO ACIDS:

Alanine = 28 mg/tablespoon

Arginine = 36.57 mg/tablespoon

Aspartic Acid = 42.43 mg/tablespoon

Cystine/Cysteine = 8.57 mg/tablespoon

Glutamic Acid = 60.57 mg/tablespoon

Glycine = 23.29 mg/tablespoon

Histidine = 10.14 mg/tablespoon

Isoleucine = 19.29 mg/tablespoon

Leucine = 39.14 mg/tablespoon

Lysine = 20.86 mg/tablespoon

Methionine = 16.71 mg/tablespoon

Phenylalanine = 23.86 mg/tablespoon

Proline = 24.29 mg/tablespoon

Serine = 23.57 mg/tablespoon

Threonine = 17.57 mg/tablespoon

Tryptophan = 6.86 mg/tablespoon

Tyrosine = 21 mg/tablespoon

Valine = 22.86 mg/tablespoon

Before I calculate the Herptivite figures I need to find out how many grams there are in a tablespoon of Herptivite...

Someone needs to microweigh it for me... or atleast find out how many tablespoons of herptivite is in an unopened container of Herptivite.

Thanks!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 07:27 AM

AHHHH thank you Ern! You rock, man! 10 is such a perfect number, too. It'll make the calculations and conversions quick.

OK, I'll have the Herptivite figures for you guys soon.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 08:20 AM

Here is the Herptivite breakdown. I've calculated them in mg/tablespoon, assuming 10 g or 1000 mg of herptivite = 1 tablespoon.

The simple equation went like this:

x total mg of subtsance/ 1 kg of herptivite = y total milligrams of substance/ 0.01 kg of herptivite in a tablespoon. After calculating x, I solved for y.

I am crying out for someone to please feel free to correct me here incase I have made a mistake. It's about 3:15 AM right now so excuse me if I have erred. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I may have misplaced the decimal in the calculations but, after rechecking the numbers over a million and one times, I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Herptivite Break down

Vitamins:

Vitamin E – 36.67 mg/tablespoon

Choline – 44 mg/tablespoon

Niacin – 33 mg/tablespoon

Inositol – 25.3 mg/tablespoon

Ascorbic Acid (vit C) – 22 mg/tablespoon

P-Amino Benzoic Acid – 11 mg/tablespoon

Thiamine (B1) – 8.8 mg/tablespoon

Riboflavin (B2) – 5.5 mg/tablespoon

Vit. B6 – 5.5 mg/tablespoon

Beta Carotene – 4.4 mg/tablespoon

d-Pantothenic Acid – 3.3 mg/tablespoon

Folic Acid – 0.33 mg/tablespoon

Menadione – 0.22 mg/tablespoon

Vit. B12 – 0.0385 mg/tablespoon

Biotin - 0.0044 mg/tablespoon


Amino Acids:

Alanine (0.62%) – 61.93 mg/tablespoon

Arginine (0.58%) – 58.08 mg/tablespoon

Aspartic Acid (1.03%) – 102.63 mg/tablespoon

Cysteine (0.27%) – 27.17 mg/tablespoon

Glutamic Acid (1.32%) – 131.67 mg/tablespoon

Glycine (0.35%) – 34.87 mg/tablespoon

Histidine (0.23%) – 23.21 mg/tablespoon

Isoleucine (0.54%) – 54.45 mg/tablespoon

Leucine (0.64%) – 85.14 mg/tablespoon

Lysine (0.64%) - 63.91 mg/tablespoon

Methionine (0.38%) – 37.73 mg/tablespoon

Phenylalanine (0.59%) – 59.07 mg/tablespoon

Proline (0.39%) – 38.72 mg/tablespoon

Serine (0.69%) – 68.64 mg/tablespoon

Threonine (0.46%) – 45.54 mg/tablespoon

Tryptophan (0.17%) 16.50 mg/tablespoon

Tyrosine (0.40%) – 39.71 mg/tablespoon

Valine ( 0.70%) – 69.74 mg/tablespoon


Minerals:

Calcium min (2.2%) – 220.00 mg/tablespoon

Calcium max (2.3%) – 230.00 mg/tablespoon

Phosphorus (1.1%) – 110.00 mg/tablespoon

Salt min (0.13%) – 13.20 mg/tablespoon

Salt max (0.14%) – 13.85 mg/tablespoon

Magnesium (0.01%) – 0.99 mg/tablespoon

Potassium (0.17%) – 16.50 mg/tablespoon

Sulfer (0.55%) – 55.00 mg/tablespoon

Now as for this stuff here, ppm means parts per million. What are the constants and units for these? Until I know them I can't calculate the amounts of these...

Copper – 165 ppm
Iodine – 38.5 ppm
Iron – 3,850 ppm
Manganese – 330 ppm
Zinc – 330 ppm

That's funny... Hmmm... I thought I remember Bourbon mentioning once that one of the reasons they opted to use the Reptile Vitamins (i.e. Herptivite) was because it had lower doeses of substances than the mammal vits. According to the calculations, this is untrue, at least compared to Pricilla's Vits. I'm still pretty positive that I didn't misplace a decimal anywhere.

Perhaps the fact that the Herptivite wasn't leveled off before measuring the total grams in a tablespoon accounts for the margin of error. However, I doubt many people remember to level off the Herptivite when scooping it with the tablespoon before they mix it into the BML...

Interesting...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 08:42 AM

good work Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
I'm sure your brain hurts by now, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
I know my brain hurts just looking at the figures, but certainly some interesting info to be able to compare.

The only thing that I'm thinking of is the fact that both vitamins are made to complement different diets.
If you wanted to get a more true comparison, then it might be necessary to take into account the complete figures of both diets?

The only thing(if I recall correctly)that has kept anyone from doing a complete analysis of the petglider diet, and consequently a comparison of the two diets that use the respective vitamins, was the fact that the statistics for thepetglider multivitamin were unknown and unavailable. Since this is no longer the case maybe we could at least do a comparison? This is by no means to imply that one is better than the other, but just something that would be a good point of reference <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 09:04 AM

YES, Ern! You're still awake! Wicked!

Ah, I see. You're right, man. You would have to take the entire diet into account really have any level of comparison. That would certainly be a challenge and quite the mathematical venture, seeing as there are so many factors, like what constituents the individual chooses for the BML mixture (seeing as there are several possibilites like the use of different brands of babyfood, yogurt, juice with yogurt, etc), fruits/veggies combos, and so on... I suspect even simple things like the type of honey used for BML would be significant enough to cause some significant variance in nutritional values.

My next question is (I'm too lazy to check at this time of night), do you offer the same amount of fruits and vegetables in the BML as you do in the petglider diet? If so, that would certainly cut a lot of work off for us, because then we could simply have the amounts of nutrients provided by the fruits/veggie component cancel eachother out, and we won't even have to worry about that uncontrolled factor (i.e. calculating the nutrional values of different fruits/veggies which would be impossible seeing as there are endless combos)!

Anyway, I'm off to bed now. I am going to die at the gym tomorrow if I don't get some shut eye. LOL. I'll check on this thread in the morning! Peace, Ern!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 03:05 PM

Hey Mikey, Real quick, Big Ern DID level the scoop, so that shouldn't have thrown you off.

And WOW!!!!!! YOU ARE A MAD MATH GENIUS!

I agree with Ern on the comparison thing. The vits are to complement two different diets, so be careful how the comparison is conducted.

I'm so glad I could get this info out there. I have to say I am rather impressed with Priscilla's vitamin, it looks really good.

Keep in mind also when doing all glider diet analysis/comparison: We do not necessarily have anything "controlled" to compare our results to. So what we are really starting here is like a data base of info that at some point someone could utilize to someday figure out the true complete dietary needs of PET gliders. I know everyone wants to have this "as natural as possible" diet, but I don't feed my cat live mice or birds every night, he gets high grade cat food that was created after years and years of good hard research and colaboration between lots of hard working people. Same concept here. Now, I am a truly lazy person outside of 40 hours of work a week and a full time University Schedual, LOL. So I'll leave all this calculation stuff up to you guys.

FYI - I'll try to take Mikey's calculations and place them into a table/excel spreedsheat either today or tomorrow. I probably will not post it, I'll just mail it to those who need it for analysis.
Posted By: Karin

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 03:19 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
However, I doubt many people remember to level off the Herptivite when scooping it with the tablespoon before they mix it into the BML...


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Mikey, it's a teaspoon per batch of BML...just didn't want to throw anyone off <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />.

Karin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/17/05 04:21 PM

OH yes... my bad, Karin... That's right - teaspoon. Thanks Karin, I missed that one.

Also, you're right Nihm, the tablespoon was levelled off. I can't believe I misread what Ern had said. Number crunching chips away at your sanity. lol No wonder Einstein was such a nut job! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> From what I've read that guy had the most erratic sleeping patterns sleeping for 15 minutes, then staying awake for 15 minutes, then sleeping again for 15 minutes, and this pattern would go on for the entire 24 hour cycle! Wierdo...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 02/18/05 06:41 AM

I too am really impressed with Pricillas Vitamins. As I mentioned I had made the mix before, then when I realized it was to be fed with HER vitamins I looked long and hard at them. I thought everything looked really good. I made the decision not to go with it based solely on price though.
Thanks so much Mikey for doing all those calculations!
This has been a very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to everyone for your input. I just keep on a checkin back for all the new good info!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Differences between vitamins? - 04/21/05 11:34 PM

[:"blue"] Somehow, I totally missed the last part of this thread???? Good thing I guess as Mikey did all of the calculations and saved me the time. I can see one thing I would like to do.....present the information in a side by side format so that it is a little easier to compare the materials. Keep in mind that I have no expectation of offering any sort of an opinion about which is the better material. We don't know how much calcium a glider needs or how much Vitamin A or zinc or any of the other Vitus and minerals in these supplements so saying that one is better than the other is probably a little foolish unless some unless there is obvious and glaring problem, which I doubt will happen.

Some time ago I did a simple nutritional analysis of of the BML diet and presented figures for the fruits, veggies and the BML mix but never did combine all of the figures into a final analysis. All of the work is done and I really have just been dragging my big feet. Guess I need to get my $$$$ in gear and post the final results. Then I could start working on Priscilla's diet. Couldn't do that before because I didn't have the vitamin analysis and that is no longer a problem. Thanks to everyone for all of the good information.
[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 03:12 AM

[:"blue"] Leyna was so kind as to locate this thread which I had lost track of. Good thing she did as there appear to be a few unfinished pieces of business. I have a few belated comments concerning a subject near and dear to my heart. Going to mention these in the order they showed up in the thread and not necessarily in the importance of their value to the subject.

Don’t know where Amanda got here figures for Herptivite; but the values are exactly half of what is shown on the label of my Herptivite container. That is obviously going to screw up the calculations if the numbers are not correct. If someone out there has a Herptivite container and can either confirm or discount the figures, it would be very much appreciated.

The fact that the Herptivite figures are in question, gives me pause to wonder about the PetGlider vitamin figures. Listing figures in terms of values for 7 tbs. of material is a little unusual. If Amanda can confirm that what she posted is exactly as it came from Priscilla, I would feel a little better.
[/]



“…..UGHHH I'd do the math but I hate working with ounces... You Americans... when will you guys convert to the SI metric system like the rest of the world?
[:"blue"] Actually. Mikey the US did convert to the metric system about 20 years ago,maybe longer?? Only problem is nobody knows it, not even the average American??? [/]



"...Someone needs to microweigh it for me... or atleast find out how many tablespoons of herptivite is in an unopened container of Herptivite..."
[:"blue"] When I did my work on the BML diet, I had to resolve the question about the weight of Herptivite. I used a very accurate scale.....could measure to 1/7000 lb or 0.06 gram.....and took multiple(25) measurements and calculated an average. My result was about 20% less than Ernie’s. I would like to know more about how Ern came up with his value as I suspect it may off a little. [/]



“...i converted all the IU figures to total mg...”
[:"blue"] Mikey: Not quite sure why you converted IU figures to micrograms?? Here in the US we are used to discussing vitamin dosages in IUs rather than mcg. Is that a Canadian thing or was it just late at night?? [/]



“...I've calculated them in mg/tablespoon, assuming 10 g or 1000 mg of herptivite = 1 tablespoon...”
[:"blue"] Mikey: Is the above a typo, or is this the actual figure you used?? 10 grams is actually equal to 10,000 mg!!! [/]



“...That's funny... Hmmm... I thought I remember Bourbon mentioning once that one of the reasons they opted to use the Reptile Vitamins (i.e. Herptivite) was because it had lower doeses of substances than the mammal vits. According to the calculations, this is untrue, at least compared to Pricilla's Vits. I'm still pretty positive that I didn't misplace a decimal anywhere...”
[:"blue"] I haven’t actually checked the individual numbers yet; but from my previous comments, you can see there is a good possibility that there are some problems with these figures. The argument about using RepVits because of lower doses is spurious. If a particular vitamin is more or less potent, you simply feed more or less of it as appropriate. The dosage argument is a smokescreen. [/]



“...The only thing that I'm thinking of is the fact that both vitamins are made to complement different diets. If you wanted to get a more true comparison, then it might be necessary to take into account the complete figures of both diets...”
[:"blue"] ERN: If you look at most of the popular glider diets used today, they are really not all that much different... fruit...veggies...protein...misc. treats. I think it is reasonable to assume the required vitamin and mineral supplements needed for the different diets will not be terribly different??? [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 03:31 AM

I can't beleive I missed this thread the first time around! Very interesting! A toughie indeed - And I don't think you're ever going to get a complete breakdown of Pricilla's vitamins - at least not until they're patented and you're reading it off the package! I really like some of the "extra" ingredients she has added though, you can tell she did her homework!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 03:46 AM

Oh, goodness... this thread! Oh boy! Here goes nothing...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Don’t know where Amanda got here figures for Herptivite; but the values are exactly half of what is shown on the label of my Herptivite container. That is obviously going to screw up the calculations if the numbers are not correct. If someone out there has a Herptivite container and can either confirm or discount the figures, it would be very much appreciated.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You're kidding?! LOL You mean the initial figures provided before all the number crunching were incorrect?! Oh my God! All that work... *trying not to pass out now*


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
“…..UGHHH I'd do the math but I hate working with ounces... You Americans... when will you guys convert to the SI metric system like the rest of the world?
Actually. Mikey the US did convert to the metric system about 20 years ago,maybe longer?? Only problem is nobody knows it, not even the average American???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, you Americanos need to get crackin'! LOL!


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
“...i converted all the IU figures to total mg...”
Mikey: Not quite sure why you converted IU figures to micrograms?? Here in the US we are used to discussing vitamin dosages in IUs rather than mcg. Is that a Canadian thing or was it just late at night??

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Some of the initial vitamin figures (e.g. Vitamin C, K, and Vitamin B series figures) were provided in mg. Perhaps, I converted the UI's to mg for better visualization of the amounts. I don't remember for sure... I'll look into it...


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
“...That's funny... Hmmm... I thought I remember Bourbon mentioning once that one of the reasons they opted to use the Reptile Vitamins (i.e. Herptivite) was because it had lower doeses of substances than the mammal vits. According to the calculations, this is untrue, at least compared to Pricilla's Vits. I'm still pretty positive that I didn't misplace a decimal anywhere...”
I haven’t actually checked the individual numbers yet; but from my previous comments, you can see there is a good possibility that there are some problems with these figures. The argument about using RepVits because of lower doses is spurious. If a particular vitamin is more or less potent, you simply feed more or less of it as appropriate. The dosage argument is a smokescreen.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This fact that herptivite has lower doses was from an MSN conversation I had with Bourbon back when we were debating on diets earlier this year. I had the conversation saved and this was one of the reasons she mentioned that she chose Herptivite for the BML. She mentioned it was in lower doses. Perhaps what she was referring to was that the ratios of the doses of the vitmains/minerals were lower. In other words, perhaps other vitamins out there like the various mammal vitamins had a greater degree of variance among the different vitamins/minerals where as the Herptivite had figures which were comparatively close to eachother.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
“...I've calculated them in mg/tablespoon, assuming 10 g or 1000 mg of herptivite = 1 tablespoon...”
Mikey: Is the above a typo, or is this the actual figure you used?? 10 grams is actually equal to 10,000 mg!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, that was a typo! LOL It was definitely too late for me to be shifting decimals accurately! I don't think ti affected my calculations, though, and if it did so help me God I will run around the block in only my boxers screaming my head off!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/22/05 08:22 AM

[:"blue"] I have taken the numbers that Mikey computed and arranged them in the form of a chart that will make a comparison of the two supplements a little easier to accomplish. I made a couple of corrections and recalculated a few of the values so that the units of measure were the same for each of the items. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have a "STRONG" suspicion that these values are "NOT" correct. Mikey's math seems to be OK for the most part; but there is a real possibility that the figures he was given to work with may be inaccurate. Hopefully, that issue will be resolved shortly and we can get an accurate set of figures in your hands for review. I have posted the chart as an attachment as this type of data doesn't display well on the message screen. [/]

Attached File
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 10:03 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"...Someone needs to microweigh it for me... or atleast find out how many tablespoons of herptivite is in an unopened container of Herptivite..."
When I did my work on the BML diet, I had to resolve the question about the weight of Herptivite. I used a very accurate scale.....could measure to 1/7000 lb or 0.06 gram.....and took multiple(25) measurements and calculated an average. My result was about 20% less than Ernie’s. I would like to know more about how Ern came up with his value as I suspect it may off a little.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I used a level spoon and I also used a triple beam scale. It's pretty accurate. It's not off far enough to account for a 20% difference. I've got a 100g/10g/1g weight set to keep it on track. Did you use a digital scale? They aren't always as accurate as you think. Even though a scale may have a number of decimal points and claim to weigh delicate amounts, they aren't always right on the money, no matter if you weigh 25 or 100 times. Do you have weights to establish the accuracy of your scale? If you're worried about it, just use your weight figures for comparison I'm not really sure where the discrepancy lies.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 10:48 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Also includes:
-Calcium sup approved through the FDA
-nectar, bee pollen, milk thistle for healthy liver function, probiotics for the immune system and for better absorption of nutrients, and Gum Arabic (from the Acacia species) a carbohydrate high in calcium

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In the analysis of Pricilla's vits wouldn't these items have an important impact? Seems to me that these items would have to be broken down by quantity and the results factored into the values that are being presented. After all they are a part of the vitamin package. Just curious.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 02:28 PM

Oky Doky Ern....
I copy and pasted EXACTLY what Pricilla gave me via email into the thread, so that should be completely verbatum.

The Rep vits I had to data entry myself, but I got them directly off my container of herptivite....maybe you have a bigger container than me? Both my Herptivite and Calcium came from PetsMarts, and they are the same brand Bourbon gives pics for on the BML recipe.

Sorry, guys, I hope I didn't enter the data wrong! I swear I got the BML vit #'s right off the backs of the plastic containers I bought them in.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 02:45 PM

It's OK Nihm! Don't apologize. All this nutritional stuff, like any science can get quite complex and intensive! Your figures were very helpful and if it weren't for you we probably wouldn't have ever known Pricilla's vitamin breakdown any time soon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> .

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The Rep vits I had to data entry myself, but I got them directly off my container of herptivite....maybe you have a bigger container than me?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hmmm... I don't think the size of the Herptivite container would have affected the calculations because we calculated the amounts of the different vits/minerals/nutrients in the Herptivite in mg/tablespoon anyway.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/22/05 06:59 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Did you use a digital scale.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] LOL!! Ern: I was going to ask you the same question. Looks like you did everything right. I have a balance scale used for reloading firearms ammunition and it is accurate to 0.06 grams so we are both using scales that are more than accurate enough for this little project. There are two possible explanations that I can see for the difference. The most obvious and the one least considered is the accuracy of the "tablespoon!!" Most tablespoons are cheap little molded plastic gizmos from Taiwan or some such place and are not what one might reasonably call a precision measuring device. Other difficulty is the issue of "packing." When I did my work, initially, I had a lot of trouble getting consistent results from measurement to measurement. Whet I finally decided was that due to settling and packing, the first scoop out of the container weighed more than subsequent scoops because the material got stirred up a little. What I ended up doing is sifting the Herptivite through a flower sifter before every measurement to make sure it was as uniform as possible in consistency. Probably a little bit of overkill; but by doing that, the measurements became much more consistent. As a side note, I went so far as to write the manufacturer and asked them for the weight. They told me 7 grams...I measured 8 grams and you got 10 grams. Clearly, establishing this number is not as easy as one might think. Anyway, thanks for the information...we are in the ballpark!!! [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 07:16 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....maybe you have a bigger container than me.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Thanks, Amanda. I trust you. Size of the container doesn't matter as the figures are quoted in units per kg not units per container. Only thing that comes to mind immediately is that Rep-Cal has changed their formulation and are putting out a less concentrated material. Sure would be helpful if someone else could check their label and see what is going on???

My container has an expiration date of FEB 2003 on it. Amanda: Could you check the date on your container, please?? Maybe you have more current information?? Guess I will have to email Rep-Cal or maybe Sheila will be able to help with this??

Let's not all panic; but if the formulation has been changed, it will be necessary to adjust the BML formula to compensate for any potential in the Herptivite formulation!!!
[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/22/05 07:35 PM

Wow! I missed this one entirely until just now. I just read through it and find it to be very interesting. I was just asking Pockets if she new the comparison between Nekton sugar glider and the high protein wombaroo diet that is coming from Australia. I don't have any numbers or I would offer them. I will see what I can find out if you all would be willing to do some more math.

Again thanks guys for all your work on this it is great info and helps one to make an informed decision.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparision - 04/22/05 07:41 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Hmmm... I don't think the size of the Herptivite container would have affected the calculations.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Correct Mikey!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/22/05 07:51 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....In the analysis of Pricilla's vits wouldn't these items have an important impact? Seems to me that these items would have to be broken down by quantity and the results factored into the values that are being presented. After all they are a part of the vitamin package......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Charlie: Yes and no.....sheer speculation on my part; but this is my thinking. The vitamins and minerals and amino acids in the supplement are in relatively concentrated form whereas the other ingredients you mentioned probably are not. If that is true, the VMAs will have a large impact on the numbers while the others won't. As an analogy it would be sort of like adding some "treats" to a pure vitamin supplement. Certainly, if one were to look at the total diet, these items would have to be considered; but I suspect they don't have a major impact on the total VMA values of Priscilla's supplement. Again, this is just speculation and may be totally off base. [/]
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/22/05 08:33 PM

Not wanting to be negative but if the quantity or values of additional items added to a suppliment are not known it is impossible to make an accurate analysis. It is my thinking that if these additional items are insignificant then why are they added? And what impact will they have adding an unknown quantity to a gliders diet?

While I would like to see the end results of an analysis I think you are wasteing your time by using an inaccurate set of base figures. You already have mentioned a 30% variation between the weight furnished by RepCal and the one Randy established. A plus or minus 30% is not a very definitive comparison then with the other items thrown in where does that leave the analysis?
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/22/05 08:52 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />My brain hurts from all that!
I'll check my containers tonight and try to remember to bring them in with me.... Monday, I'm at work, no internet at home yet, still too poor of a college student for that, but if I can get over to my neighbors tomorrow I'll post then since they have the net.

I have to admit this is a very complicated subject and I don't completely get it. I hope someday down the line all this technical talk will turn into something in "english" for those of us who are always confused by the whole diet mess.

Really I'd like to see talks like this turn into diets that are simpler for the humans and more nutritious for the glider. It's tough for me to like the whole attitude of "Well this is as good as we can do for now." Gliders are VERY new to the pet world, therefore people like us and places like this(GC) need to help out where ever we can.

You guys are doing a super awesome job!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/23/05 03:19 AM

Sending Randy scans of Nekton Sugar Glider - if you can't read the ingredients - I will cut the label off <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/23/05 04:27 AM

Gottem Pockets. Running short of time tonight so will look at them over the weekend.


Please.......there must be someone out there who has a relatively new container of Herptivite who can see if it has the same label ingredients and amounts as what Amanda posted earlier in this thread????
Posted By: Karin

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/23/05 04:36 AM

Checked my Herptivite, and everything listed is identical to what Amanda listed...expiration date Aug. 2006.

HTH!

Karin
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/23/05 11:01 AM

Randy, might want to check out what Susan Donoguhue has to say about Nekton products. Go to this link and scroll down to the seventh paragraph.

http://www.anapsid.org/vitamin.html

We presented this information to Nekton about a year ago and got a denial. Nekton stated that they would check into the allegations but we have never gotten any follow up from them. I have been unable to contact Susan Donoguhue.
Charlie H
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/24/05 01:35 AM

Charlie, I would definately get ahold of Susan directly.

Nekton is World Famous for their products & have been used quite successfully for well over 30 years, many Zoological Parks Nation-wide use & highly recommend Nekton products above all else.

Many of these captive zoo species are highly endangered & on C.I.T.E.S listing, so I think if there was a serious problem it would be known.

I will also try to contact Susan, & a few Zoological parks, but I have also heard very similar claims against other products
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/24/05 07:23 AM

[:"blue"] Karin: Thanks for posting that information!! I'm composing a message to Rep-Cal right now and will be on the phone to them first thing Monday morning. It is looking more like there may have been a change in the Herptivite formulation!! If true, everyone who feeds BML and wants to adhere to Bourbon's recipe is going to have to double the amount of Herptivite that is published in the current recipe.

Charlie: Thanks. I've seen that article before; but it was interesting to read it again....always see something I missed the first time!!

Anyone know how to get in touch with Bourbon??? I understand she is tooling around Florida somewhere.
[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/24/05 08:38 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
There are two possible explanations that I can see for the difference. The most obvious and the one least considered is the accuracy of the "tablespoon!!" Most tablespoons are cheap little molded plastic gizmos from Taiwan or some such place and are not what one might reasonably call a precision measuring device. Other difficulty is the issue of "packing."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Randy, that's what I was thinking it could be. My measuring spoons aren't the nicest ones out there. Also a spoon doesn't usually get filled the same way each time so I'm not sure what to think. I'd say that if they're telling you 7 and you got 8 and I got 10, well, then 8 sounds like a good number to settle with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 03:36 PM

Hey thanks Karen! I know both my repcal and herptivite are not more than 9 months old....I walked out and forgot them this morning on the table, I'm glad to see someone go to it before I did.

Thanks!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 05:44 PM

okay guys! gotta a question..in opinion, what should i feed my glider? Rep-cal with pink or blue!
Posted By: Lynsie

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 06:04 PM

When I purchased my rescues he gave me a box of stuff and in it was cricket dust. Does anyone know anything about using that with gliders besides to dust crickets??
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 06:06 PM

Hey guys, might want to try making a new post for those last two questions.

We're trying to stay just with vitamin analysis here.

THANKS!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 06:07 PM

[:"blue"] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />You need to feed both!!! The blue label is a vitamin and mineral supplement and the pink label is a calcium supplement.

The amount should be approximately 1/15 of a tsp. per day per glider of the pink label which is the calcium supplement and 1/30 of a tsp. of the blue label which is the vitamin supplement. If you are feeding the BML diet, the two supplements are included in the recipe for the BML mix and by following the feeding instructions, you will be feeding the proper amount. If you are feeding some other diet, you can simply sprinkle the material over the food. You can purchase measuring spoons at Wal-Mart and many other stores that will accurately measure out these amounts.

Buy the little 3 spoon set that is calibrated in:

dash.......1/8 tsp.
pinch......1/16 tsp.
smidgon..1/32 tsp.

What diet do you have your gliders on??
[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 06:10 PM

Good point, Amanda!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 06:21 PM

Randy,

When you find out from Rep-Cal wether or not they have changed their amounts please post it in a new post as well as here. I just made a new batch last night, UGH! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 06:34 PM

[:"blue"] Chanda: Don't worry. If we find out there is something that needs to be done, I'll post it in a million places. Every glider board that I know of. My even have George make a presidential announcement. In the meantime don't worry. Gliders won't be hurt by any short term variations in their calcium or vitamin intake. Damage due to vitamin or calcium insufficiency develops over a longer period of time. [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 07:32 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Very nice! Haha... Seems we may be in the midst of widespread international glider news if amounts of vitamins in Bourbon's Modified Leadbeaters needs to be... well... MODIFIED! Let's wait and see what the company has to say while we all play the waiting game... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/25/05 08:43 PM

OMG! Randy THANK YOU!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

dash.......1/8 tsp.
pinch......1/16 tsp.
smidgon..1/32 tsp.

I've got that measureing set (came from Bed Bath & beyond for about $4) and I have been trying to figure out if it was exact or WHAT.... it was driving me NUTS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />, LOL.... I'm glad someone confirmed my numbers on those spoons!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/26/05 03:28 AM

[:"blue"] I tried to call Rep-Cal today to get some info on our Herptivite "problem"; but their customer service capabilities leave something to be desired. Never did get through to a human being and got more than my fill of recorded messages!!! Finally gave up and emailed a guy that has been helpful in the past. Eric has always been helpful and usually responds pretty promptly unless he is off on vacation. Going to sit back and wait for for some insight from him. [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/26/05 02:07 PM

LOL I was eating a Big Mac last night and noticed how small the meat patties were and I remembered back in the day when the Big Macs were HUGE!

It got me thinking about this thread; perhaps the company (Rep-Cal) has been down-sizing and in doing so has shrunk the amounts of substances in their Herptivite products, and they're avoiding you Randy because you'll expose them more than they're comfortable with! LOL.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/26/05 07:04 PM

[:"blue"] Mikey: That doesn't seem to be the case as I've had people respond with information from from labels of unexpired material and some have the concentrated stuff and some have the dilute stuff. Only way that would be possible is if the change has occurred just recently. raelly am scratching my head over this??? Hopefully, the puzzle will nbe cleared up shortly!!! [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/26/05 07:53 PM

LOL yes, perhaps it was a very recent down-sizing project is what I was alluding to. Definitely peculiar, Randy! Hopefully the powers contact you soon!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/27/05 01:49 AM

Mickey....lol...Big Mac. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Jackie
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/27/05 06:22 PM

[:"blue"]For those of you who are following this closely, no response yet from Rep-Cal. [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 04/27/05 08:59 PM

ugh... this is what makes this whole topic SO much fun! Waiting and waiting and waiting..."The waaaiaaiiting is the HARDEST part!"
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 05/02/05 10:54 PM

[:"blue"] Just to update all of you who have been holding your breath....... I have not received a response from Rep-Cal to my inquiry about the conflicting analyses on various Herptivite labels. Sooooo, I sent another round of E-mails and also sent a hard copy by snail-mail to the main office. Additionally, Karin tells me she has been chatting with Bourbon who is laying on some sunny beach in Florida( []http://usgn.org/board/images/smiles/rofl3.gif[/] ) and B is going to make an effort to contact R/C as well. In the meantime it will be sort of like being in the Army.....hurry up and wait!!! [/]
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 05/06/05 03:20 AM

okay I spoke with Repcal.... they said back in 2002 that there was a misprint on the labling.. something about it saying 2 times the figues or something, I haven't read this thread, so I may be way off base here. but he assured me that the PRODUCT itself, has not changed in the time they have had it. He also took full responsibility for the mislabling. What he also said, is that if you have a product with the mislabled one, to please contact repcal, and they would be glad to exchange the product with fresh. This is a problem that occured in 2002. so randy if you have come across recent shipments directly from repcal that has the mislable on them. we also need to know that. have the people check the lot numbers and date codes. They said they thought they had gotten back all the mislabled product, that it is possible that there is more out there.

okay I just went back to read it to see what was going on.

Randy you said your date code was 2003, and he told me the product is dated for 18 months. and he would not suggest using it past that time. That would explain the different figures. but stressing the product itself has not changed, The current lables are in fact the right figures.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 05/06/05 06:47 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...Randy you said your date code was 2003, and he told me the product is dated for 18 months. and he would not suggest using it past that time. That would explain the different figures. but stressing the product itself has not changed, The current lables are in fact the right figures....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] B: Thanks for checking with Erik. I'm not actually using material out of that "2003" container. It is an empty one I just happen to have handy when I was comparing figures with those posted on this thread.

Apparently there are still a few mislabeled containers out there with expiration dates that are still current. Sheila has one and someone else posted on the other "HERP" thread that they had one. Since the container is a a rare oddity(like a misprinted stamp), think I'll put it up for auction on eBay....starting bid $999.99.....whatdaya think??
[/]
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Herptivite/PetGlider Vitamin Comparison - 05/06/05 10:05 AM

I have one of the bogus labels with an expiration date of JUN--2005. Lot # 7 88286 00300
Charlie H
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