GliderCENTRAL

Fad Diets

Posted By: Charlie H

Fad Diets - 05/01/05 12:37 PM

Because of some of the posts I have made about diets in the past there are members who have made the statement that I am closed minded to any new ideas. This is not true. What I am opposed to is the experimenting with sugar glider diets based on junk science or information furnished by a manufacturer trying to market their product. When the only research you can find on a products value is based primarily on the manufacturers claims it naturally makes me suspicious. My interest is in the health of the sugar gliders and not in promoting any diet.

I do not feel that it is proper to promote unproven products and dietary ideas on the boards. Far too many glider owners are willing to jump at the idea of a new diet or product with very little knowledge of what the effects could be to their gliders. As has been seen in some of the recent posts members are willing to start using a product that even the original poster admits they do not know exactly how to use. Also wanting to start using a diet when the complete diet hasn’t even been posted. This type of action is not in the best interest of the sugar gliders.

There are those who advocate using certain items that are considered to be a part of the wild glider diet without taking into consideration that the wild diet is seasonal and no one knows how much of these items should be a part of the captive gliders diet. If individuals wish to experiment with items in their sugar gliders diet it is a personal choice but they should not encourage others to do the same without knowing what the end results are going to be.

So when I come on a little strong about some of the new ideas it is not that I am closed minded. It is simply that I am thinking of the welfare of the sugar gliders and do not like to see a mass movement into an unknown area. Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Let’s leave the dietary studies to the professionals and stick with the things that have been proven to work for captive gliders. No one has all the answers to the needs of captive gliders but at least we have moved into a range that has eliminated a lot of the dietary problems of the past. As responsible glider owners we should stick with one of the proven diets until proper research indicates changes need to be made.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 01:39 PM

Bra-vo Charlie. If you have never read " Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" , at the end of the Messiah Handbook it says
'Everythig in this book may be wrong.'
I agree, it takes a long time and a lot of mistakes to sow how things work symbiotically, and by that time the environment may have changed and your work is now invalid! To quote someone I don't know who,

"Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity"

Nature prevails, as always.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 05:35 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What I am opposed to is the experimenting with sugar glider diets based on junk science or information furnished by a manufacturer trying to market their product.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

While I agree with you on the point that just because a *new idea* comes along, I have to disagree with you in regards to speaking about the High Protein Wombaroo, as it has been used in Australia for years now and researched by professionals there for the well being and good health of animals there, including sugar gliders.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
My interest is in the health of the sugar gliders and not in promoting any diet.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think this statement is true for all of us, as none of us earn any money off the products we choose to feed. I haven’t seen one manufacturer of diets (that earn money off it) come here to GC and say you should feed their diet because they feel and think it is the best for gliders.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I do not feel that it is proper to promote unproven products and dietary ideas on the boards.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Once again, I agree with you on this statement. However, once again, speaking of the High Protein Wombaroo (as I am sure this is what brought this post about) it is not an unproven product and has been very beneficial with the rehabilitation and health in gliders that are captive in Australia. At any time, if you do a search ( I always use google) and pull up Australian zoos and vet written articles that focus on the health and well being of gliders it is the high protein products that they use in their leadbeaters mix.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As has been seen in some of the recent posts members are willing to start using a product that even the original poster admits they do not know exactly how to use.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I am not understanding how you can state that the original poster admits to not knowing how to use this product. I do believe the comment was “before switching your glider to this diet, please talk it over with your veterinarian” in almost all of the posts that were made.

Because one does not post all that they feed does not mean they do not know how to use it. I may be mistaken, but I do believe people were just asking about the product itself, and not what all goes with it.(which yes, could be a problem)

I will agree with you that one should know the whole diet and its contents before one is wanting to use it, but we do not know how many people just pm for further details. I say this because, I myself, have received many pms asking more about the diet and what all it entails at which point I will try to answer the best to my ability as we all do with any diet or I will refer them to the original poster of it so she may go more into depth on the subject. I agree with her though, one should contact your veterinarian and that is prior to changing from any diet to another.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If individuals wish to experiment with items in their sugar gliders diet it is a personal choice but they should not encourage others to do the same without knowing what the end results are going to be.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


I agree it is a personal choice, but once again I must come in and state, that at no time has it been “encouraged” for others to stop feeding their current diet and feed this one. It has been stated over and over to speak to your veterinarian first, yet that statement seems to be overlooked by many.
As for not knowing the end result, we don’t know the end result for any of our gliders unfortunately. Yes, there are some diets that really improve the quality of life for gliders and have bounced them back to health, yet there are other gliders that have used the same diet plan and did not wind up with the same result. I believe that is true in anything and/or everything we do.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Let’s leave the dietary studies to the professionals and stick with the things that have been proven to work for captive gliders.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Once again, this product HAS been studied by professionals, unfortunately, it is just not professionals here in the states. Hopefully that can change though, if we all contact our vets when questions of this sort comes into play. That is the only way we will ever get the professionals involved here, unless some multi-millionaire decides to give us a few million for research.

The questions I have, are these…

1) if we still had high protein baby cereal available, would there have even been new diets developed ?

2) If so, would they be encouraged to be used seeing as how the professionals in Australia originally stated to use the leadbeaters?

3) If it were just the high protein baby cereal that we were missing from the original leadbeaters, now that the high protein wombaroo has come in the picture, why so fast to shoot it down without first researching all aspects of it yourself first, so you may share some of the down points you, personally, may find in it.


I do not recommend for anyone to start a new diet plan without first researching all fields of it that you can and than going over it with your veterinarian. I for one, have an appointment with my vet to go over the differences between three different diets. Happy Glider, BML and High Protein Wombaroo, and I will ask his advice and his opinion on these three diet plans after giving him all the ingredients in each one.
I will be sure to let you all know what his thoughts are.

For any who would like to read on the posts I am discussing here please go to
Pockets Modified Leadbeats I

And

Pockets Modified Leadbeaters II
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 06:50 PM

Well put Peggy... I have to say that I thought Pocket's post was informative and I look forward to seeing people's results with her diet. I, at no time, felt pushed to use the Wombaroo in my own gliders' diet.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 06:59 PM


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What I am opposed to is the experimenting with sugar glider diets based on junk science or information furnished by a manufacturer trying to market their product

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> What manufacturer has entered this forum and entertained us with junk science? People have brought up certain products made by manufacturers, but none were backed by junk science. I suppose if one were not to understand the concepts, or care to delve deeper into the issues to figure them out, the n they might seem like "junk science"

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
There are those who advocate using certain items that are considered to be a part of the wild glider diet without taking into consideration that the wild diet is seasonal and no one knows how much of these items should be a part of the captive gliders diet. If individuals wish to experiment with items in their sugar gliders diet it is a personal choice but they should not encourage others to do the same without knowing what the end results are going to be.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
It seems to me like ideas get brought up, and people discuss them, and make their own personal decisions. It seems to me like someone is trying to make up people's minds for them by encouraging them not to experiment or try things "unproven" It could go both ways. As for diets "proven" They've only been around long enough for people to just start seeing what the end results are. So, I don't really think with absolute clarity one can say without a doubt that the "proven" path is absolutely without flaws or potential problems. I'd say that incorporating natural items that have been "proven" and consumed by gliders for millenia is fairly reasonable. I don't think it's any less reasonable than feeding chicken babyfood or yogurt or items which gliders would never ever have a mild possibility of encountering in the wild in any habitat or island or any one of the variety of places that they exist that one may claim our gliders didn't even descend from anyways.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As responsible glider owners we should stick with one of the proven diets until proper research indicates changes need to be made.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Proper research by whom?
My "junk science" watched my gliders start to wither away from not eating and reject joeys on "proven" diets. So, research indicated to me that changes needed to be made. That's a decision I made as a responsible glider owner, I did what I thought was best for my gliders, and thus far it has gone beautifully and far better than with "proven" diets.

Bottom line, when people have a "new" idea, or are opposed to a new idea, they shouldn't have to keep it to themselves. This is a forum......
The point of it's existence is to convene to discuss ideas.
We need to keep good attitudes and not come in with negative attitudes and call ideas "gibberish" "foolish" "illogical" just because they aren't in terms comprehensible to common folk....

I took it took personal offense when I saw someone who I have a great deal of respect for have to ask for a thread to be closed because it was starting to go wrong. This person took every precaution to bring up the ideas well and positively, and it went beautifully until negative comments were made.

As far as I'm concerned, Pockets has gone to far greater lengths to compile glider info and to do positive things for captive gliders than anyone that I can think of. It truly upset me to see her have to ask for her thread to be closed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And also, I agree, well put Peggy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 07:19 PM

Well said Peggy and Ernie. If it wasn't for trial and error and experimenting, we wouldn't have the diets that all of us use for our gliders today right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 07:39 PM

I am really sorry Pockets chose to close the topic after a little criticism. A good diet can certainly withstand that. Just look at the history of BML. I'm an avid fan of BML but was following the PML post with interest. Sometimes peoples passions get in the way and I would say there are many passionate people on both sides of this fence. Please lets be respectful of each other's opinions and beliefs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 07:53 PM

Well, Ernie & Peggy pretty much have expressed my sentiments - I just wanted to say that we should never be afraid of change. Pockets has sent Peggy & I on a whirlwind of research & I am confident that there are better ways to feed our gliders - and once we find that better way, someone will come along with an even better way than that. All I'm saying is that we should spend our time researching to help improve the diets, not to discredit them. The latter just seems like such a waste. If you see a problem, don't attack - offer a solution! We're all here for the gliders, and a better diet is only going to benefit them.
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 08:00 PM

It isn't a fear of change, it's just wanting to make sure everything is right before you make the change. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 09:17 PM

Part I have a problem with is... "Consult with your vet with a dietary change.) Most vets have no idea as to the needed requirements of a good diet to maintaining a healthy sugar glider in the first place.

From my experience with Vets....most are not knowledgeable with the diet of a Sugar Glider and will refer to the Leadbeaters Diet which has been outdated for years due to requirement of High Protein Cereal having been banned years ago....as well as not enough calcium in it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 09:17 PM

I'm not upset or angered by this thread. It's actually nice to see that there is at least passion when it comes to dealing with our gliders, regardless of what stance is taken on an issue or debate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But what may have been a tad bit offensive was... well, the words "junk science" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> It's that word again... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> It seems to pop up every time we "non-scientist" glider pet owners attempt to present, evaluate and assess, calculate, clarify, or make sense of the science of anything (e.g. "The Comparison b/n Vitamins" thread, past threads on new diets, and now this one...), as if no significant degree of valid input can be acheived by common people of the pet glider community that may not be decorated with "academic papers" or have the letters "DR" before their name! Through history, some of the most profound things were founded and established by everyday, ordinary people (there are real Forest Gumps). Perhaps we should choose our words wisely, as mentioned. Let's not discredit people's intellect nor undermine people's quest for knowledge and truth with some purposely harsh words and syntax.

The science presented thusfar in regards to this topic has been rather objective and I'm glad to see that the majority sees that, even if the science may be somewhat complex.

Any diet begins as a potential "fad" diet, including the ones we now call "proven", but as mentioned in the other thread, even the word "proven" applies only to a certain degree.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 09:36 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Well said Peggy and Ernie. If it wasn't for trial and error and experimenting, we wouldn't have the diets that all of us use for our gliders today right

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You might also mention if it were not for the error part of the 'trial and error' we would not have near as many gliders that we have taken in with health problems because of improper diets.

As far as manufacturers promoting their products on this site, I have to agree that they do not. But the members regularly post statements from the manufacturers and use their promos. as a basis for their research.

I do not have a problem with a group getting together throuch PMs or emails to discuss experimenting with new items to add into the glider diet. And as was mentioned consulting with your vet. But keep in mind that the opinion of one vet is only that. 'The opinion of one vet' and not many vets know or agree on glider diets. The problem with bringing some of these experimental discussions to an open board are that there are too many people who are inexperienced with glider diets and are willing to jump onto any new idea.

I did not bring up the subject of Wombaroo Milk but since Peggy felt it was a part of this thread I will state that many years ago we tried using it. We experimented with Wombaroo Milk as a way of saving rejected joeys. We were never able to save the first rejected joey with it. We eventually started using the Baby BML and have had great success. I am not bashing or promoting but just telling you what we discovered through experience.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 09:45 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As far as manufacturers promoting their products on this site, I have to agree that they do not. But the members regularly post statements from the manufacturers and use their promos. as a basis for their research.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

If you're referring to Pocket's reference (in Part 1) from Womberoo regarding protein requirements in gliders, then I'd like to point out that I did post afterwards (in Part 2), for matters of biases, the reference from Marsupial Nutrition that verified the Womberoo statements, presented by Pockets.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 10:18 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You might also mention if it were not for the error part of the 'trial and error' we would not have near as many gliders that we have taken in with health problems because of improper diets.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> What you are dealing with in regards to the gliders that have to be taken in is more likely attributed to ignorance and misinformation. It may be a form of trial and error, but what you are referring to probably had absolutely no research or information to back it. Your experiences are just yours, just as the opinion of one vet is just that of one vet.

I don't think that we should have to get together through pms just to make one happy, this is everyone's forum to use within the confines of the rules and popular opinion seems to be in support of collaborating on and positively expressing opinions on diet among other subjects through the use of the public forum function.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 10:21 PM

I agree with Mikey, the use of the term "junk science" is somewhat insulting to the intelligence of other glider keepers who, despite not holding a degree from a university, are pouring over data trying their best to make sense of exactly what the information means. Some of the most intelligent people I have met are those who had the interest and passion enough about a subject to seek out the information on their own and educate themselves.

This being a forum where a very large percentage of us are in search of knowledge and are interested in exploring all avenues of thought and are taking into consideration the fact that, honestly, we are all still learning about these creatures and their needs in captivity. That being said I would be loathe seeing an elitist attitude towards the "non-scientist" crop up as individuals share information of what has worked for their gliders.

I really do enjoy seeing all of the information that is shared between people in all facets of glider care and I look forward to seeing the discussion regarding diet open up and hearing more of what others have had success with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Fad Diets - 05/01/05 10:46 PM

I have thus far stayed out of these threads because well, I don't have the knoweledge that Pockets has gained in her research. Nor do I have the experiences Charlie has gained with all the rescues he has saved. I applaud both for their work and see both as important.

I contacted Pockets through pm to discuss diet with her. I explained what I feed my gliders and that I have fed them this way for over 6 years. I do not advocate my diet because I do not have the scientific (even self taught "junk scientific") background to say "this is a proven diet". All I can do is relate my experience with my diet. While my diet has had just the best results possible for my gliders, I am always open to new information. Whether or not I incorporate that into my diet or not is dictated to me as what sounds reasonable. During my discussion with Pockets, she said basically, if it is working for me, don't change things. Well, I am still an amature at gliders. My oldest glider is between 7 and 8 years old (he was a rescue). I have 11 gliders right now (counting the joey). I have had 14 joeys born in my house including triplets, twins and singles and have never had one rejected or canabalized nor have I ever had a sick glider nor have I ever had one die. This could be either to my diet I feed or just plain dumb luck.
I think discussion about different diet items or ideas should be discussed and openly so that we can avoid "fad" diets that could harm our little furries. Just as we discuss whether or not gliders should have citrus or not.
Each owner/slave has the obligation and responsiblity of researching ANY diet and making the choice we feel is best for our little friends. It is no different then what brand dog food we choose to feed our canines.

I am very happy to see discussions on diet but I do ask that we keep it all mature and open minded. We have a great community here and as a community, we need to continue discussing diets so we can all learn.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 12:08 AM

One of the major problems with diet discussions is that they have gotten to the point that they are one sided. If a person starts a thread about a diet or suppliment it is fine as long as you respond with something positive. But if it is a diet or suppliment that a person finds fault with and they post to that effect they are considered by some to be a narrow minded diet basher. When actually all the person is trying to do is protect the sugar gliders from being given experimental items and products. Look at how many people were willing to give their gliders one of the newer vitamins without even knowing what was in it. There were people touting this vitamin supplement on the board and they did not have the slightest idea what its contets were. This is not responsible glider care.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 12:19 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I did not bring up the subject of Wombaroo Milk but since Peggy felt it was a part of this thread I will state that many years ago we tried using it. We experimented with Wombaroo Milk as a way of saving rejected joeys. We were never able to save the first rejected joey with it. We eventually started using the Baby BML and have had great success. I am not bashing or promoting but just telling you what we discovered through experience.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This statement implies a belief that Wambaroo MILK is an ingredient in Pockets' diet. If I am correct in this, perhaps this is the reason you do not agree with it's incorporation. It is not the milk replacer that has replaced the High Protien Baby Cereal in the original Leadbeaters mix - it is Wambaroo High Protien Supplement, a completely different product.

I would also like to add that the Taronga Zoo in Australia is still using the original Leadbeater's Mix with the incorporation of the Wambaroo HPS along with other components in their glider's diet, and IMO, the best place to learn about animals is from their native countrymen.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 12:22 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 12:32 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One of the major problems with diet discussions is that they have gotten to the point that they are one sided

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
But if it is a diet or suppliment that a person finds fault with and they post to that effect they are considered by some to be a narrow minded diet basher

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> True, but there is such a thing as positive criticism and negative criticism. It would be nice to turn the negative into a positive discussion were everyone can be open minded, and possibly improve any diet.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 01:50 AM

Carrie, you stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I am really sorry Pockets chose to close the topic after a little criticism. A good diet can certainly withstand that.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I am really saddened that it was asked to be closed as well, however, it is not due to the criticism that was given, but the fact that it was becoming a flaming topic and that is not going to be beneficial to any of us nor our gliders, so best thing to do is close the thread and avoid conflict.

Judie: you stated,

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Part I have a problem with is... "Consult with your vet with a dietary change.) Most vets have no idea as to the needed requirements of a good diet to maintaining a healthy sugar glider in the first place.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I could not agree with you more, however, there are some of us out there that do have vets that are very capable of doing the research and finding accurate information to help us out.
I do agree there are not enough knowledgeable exotic vets in the states, but as we know there are indeed some.

Mikey you stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Any diet begins as a potential "fad" diet, including the ones we now call "proven", but as mentioned in the other thread, even the word "proven" applies only to a certain degree.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Bingo! With each new thing, it has to be started somewhere, by someone, doing something. But may I also point out, this particular High Protein Wombaroo has been used for YEARS, just like several of the other *proven* diets.

Charlie you stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
But keep in mind that the opinion of one vet is only that. 'The opinion of one vet' and not many vets know or agree on glider diets.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

True statement, however, if each of us that DO have a well educated vet in the exotic (sugar glider) field asked them to at least go over the information and ingredients of different diets and give their educated advice on this, maybe just maybe, something new and positive could come together. Instead of always being pessimistic right off about a new thing that comes onto the board, do some research on it, and than, if something negative is found from a factual study, post it and let us all learn about it together, just as we do with the positive things.
I remember a while back, your alarm while using honey. You did the research on it, brought forth much good information and helped educate on honey and the botulism scare that was around at that time. Same thing here, find the facts about this product from a study that was done, and share….or find the positive and share that.
Each side of the coin can be very beneficial to each of us, as long as it is approached in the right manner.

As for the rescues you get, I have to agree with what was stated.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What you are dealing with in regards to the gliders that have to be taken in is more likely attributed to ignorance and misinformation. It may be a form of trial and error, but what you are referring to probably had absolutely no research or information to back it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This statement implies a belief that Wambaroo MILK is an ingredient in Pockets' diet. If I am correct in this, perhaps this is the reason you do not agree with it's incorporation. It is not the milk replacer that has replaced the High Protien Baby Cereal in the original Leadbeaters mix - it is Wambaroo High Protien Supplement, a completely different product.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I can totally understand and respect the fear that must cross your minds when someone talks of a new product or a new diet due to all the rescues that you two take in on a daily basis. I also applaud and commend the both of you for doing that along with the other rescues out there, however, with that being said…once again we are talking about something that is not a new diet nor a new product that has been brought to light here. It is something that has been included in many rescue operations in Australia. Some of the rescue stories that I have read about there are way worse than some that we see here. And than again, there are some that are not as bad. So once again that goes to both sides of the coin.

Big Ern Stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I don't think that we should have to get together through pms just to make one happy, this is everyone's forum to use within the confines of the rules and popular opinion seems to be in support of collaborating on and positively expressing opinions on diet among other subjects through the use of the public forum function.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I could not agree with you more. If these kind of discussions were kept to pm’s or emails and THAN brought to the board and people were than encouraging and pushing a new diet, I would hate to see what would happen than! It would be a total uproar for sure.

Charlie you also stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One of the major problems with diet discussions is that they have gotten to the point that they are one sided. If a person starts a thread about a diet or suppliment it is fine as long as you respond with something positive. But if it is a diet or suppliment that a person finds fault with and they post to that effect they are considered by some to be a narrow minded diet basher

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I have to disagree to a certain extent on this one. Once again, if there is factual fault with something that a person posts, than by all means it is accepted. I think the problem lies in the idea of one automatically discrediting a new idea or possibility that there is something else out there without having any proof to why they feel this way. And unfortunately this is how the rumor mills start and next thing you know things such as *feeding dry food causes lumpy jaw* comes in play, when we all now know that it is not a proven thing at all, but is proven that it can increase the chances of this to happen.

I think if we are all willing to work together as a team to find BOTH the good and the bad (with facts, not opinions) in diets, toys, habitat or any other thing that our gliders can benefit from it will do nothing but increase the longevity and the happiness of our gliders.

I say lets go forth and conquer TOGETHER!!
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 01:58 AM

Can't we all just get along <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Like Peggy said, there has been valide points on both sides. Now if we can weigh out each side there might be a good outcome. We are all after the same thing, Whats best for our gliders, and honestly, I don't know if there is anyone out there that knows what is best for them. Thats why discussions like these are beneficial in the quest to find what is best for our beloved gliders <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 02:09 AM

With all of that being said I'm going to be rather <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> now and say that this forum certainly does need people like Charlie, questioning, critiquing, identifying weaknesses/problems with, and dissecting any new precepts, ideas, or attitudes presented in the forum. I find it balances the forum out and establishes an equilibrium around here. The right scientific attitude and approach to anything always does require even a healthy amount of skepticism.

So, Charlie please do keep posting where you feel fit. Your experiences and thinking are an asset to the forum, and that goes for anyone finding that they may be part of a minority in stance!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 02:15 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
this forum certainly does need people like Charlie, questioning, critiquing, identifying weaknesses/problems with, and dissecting any new precepts, ideas, or attitudes presented in the forum. I find it balances the forum out and establishes an equilibrium around here. The right scientific attitude and approach to anything always does require even a healthy amount of skepticism.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Mikey I couldn't agree with you more on this. That is how good solutions are made!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> Now there is negative critiquing on any reaserch done. Its when it is turned into a positive negative critiquing, that things get worked out!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 02:59 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
this forum certainly does need people like Charlie, questioning, critiquing, identifying weaknesses/problems with, and dissecting any new precepts, ideas, or attitudes presented in the forum. I find it balances the forum out and establishes an equilibrium around here. The right scientific attitude and approach to anything always does require even a healthy amount of skepticism.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Mikey I couldn't agree with you more on this. That is how good solutions are made!!! Now there is negative critiquing on any reaserch done. Its when it is turned into a positive negative critiquing, that things get worked out!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I agree with both of you guys here. If we could all keep the criticisms positive, then things would work much better. Though I'm certainly not the most tactful person and sometimes get a bit brash, I've certainly learned by watching others communicate(like Mikey, who should be a diplomat as far as I'm concerned, lol), that certain points are much better heard when a specific tone and tact is used.

I also agree that Charlie's ideas, whether I agree with them or not, are still to be appreciated because both sides of an issue should be explored thoroughly.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 05:18 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...So, Charlie please do keep posting where you feel fit. Your experiences and thinking are an asset to the forum, and that goes for anyone finding that they may be part of a minority in stance...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Problem is, Mikey that a lot of people don’t agree with you. On a regular basis, when Charlie makes a comment or asks a "hard" question, someone takes offense and accuses him of bashing and someone else complains about having his or her feelings hurt. Then his post disappears or the thread gets closed. Mikey, the idea of fair, open, two-sided discussions is a nice one in theory; but the fact is that it doesn't always happen in actual practice.

There is no doubt that some threads get a little out of hand and there is certainly a need for GC to exert some control over their content; but it's not terribly uncommon for legitimate discussions to be terminated early, not because of where they are; but because of where they might go.

If I posted a new glider diet, tomorrow, based on a special food supplement that I was importing from Indonesia that was manufactured to sustain captive gliders on their native island, I guarantee you that my email box would be full of requests for information on how the get the supplement. Most would be from rookie glider owners and very few would ask for any proof that the diet was any good, just how to get it. Charlie recognizes and understands this peculiarity of human nature and does his best to see that the most vulnerable glider owners are informed about new diets before they head off in the wrong direction……or at least he tries, when permitted.

Just because Pockets has done a lot of investigation and reading on gliders and glider diets does not make her immune from having to defend any ideas that she might offer to the general public. Knowledgeable people, even experts, in any field of endeavor are not infallible and have, in my opinion, the obligation to defend any ideas that they present. Had more questions been asked of the "experts" at NASA, the seven Challenger astronauts might still be alive today!!

It is always good to have new ideas proposed. I’m glad Pockets started her thread on the subject of Wombaroo HPS and I’m sorry that she felt the need to request its closure. It’s good to have new ideas; but not all new ideas are good!! The only way we can determine the quality of an idea is by asking questions and having discussion. Pockets, herself said.”… Ian Humes excellent works, they have been available for many many years….until others wish to look for credible answers - they will remain uneducated in the diet issues…I am very surprised others have not ventured & looked to the experts in marsupial nutrition - very sad indeed…” Pockets needs to understand that most glider owners cannot afford to spend the many dollars that she has to stock their own personal glider libraries nor do most have the time to spend hundreds of hour on the Internet researching information that may be a little over their head, anyway. For many, GC is their only source of glider information and to close this thread because there was some controversy deprives many people of information that they have no other realistic method of obtaining. I am going to open Part 3 of the PML discussion, primarily because there are still some unanswered questions. I certainly hope Pockets will continue to offer us the benefit of her knowledge in this area; but, if she declines, we will do our best without her.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 05:45 AM

LOL it's understandable. I personally have a lot of trust in Pockets based from personal correspondence. I really appreciate her objectivity (sorry I think I've said that so many times already), and I'm sure she will have no problem explaining or addressing any questions, concerns, and inquiries.

With regards to Charlie, I for one have come to learn to appreciate the posts that are intrinsically "Charlie", and I almost look forward to them now. Charlie, it seems your stronger set posts almost always lead to a massive discussion (Yes, I'll call it that) where various individuals are compelled to pitch in opinions and views and facts, and it's the splendor of glider forum knowledge and communication at its prime!!!

Anyway, I love seeing that little flame icon beside the thread topics, especially in the diet threads because it almost always indicates that the thread contains a wealth of invaluable info, which without the initial posts of people like Charlie or others that tend to naturally stimulate involved convo wouldn't have otherwise come about in the same manner... it's like a match to a dynamite... the explosions of posts are so much fun to read though and quite stimulating to say the least!

I think the concern with most folks though is sensitivity to feelings and proper language. It does suck to suddenly discover the EDIT/REPLY/QUOTE/QUICK REPLY options gone from the right hand corners of posts in a thread, and to see the emergence of the little padlock icon...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 05:45 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The only way we can determine the quality of an idea is by asking questions and having discussion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This is true, but the problem is that people take their "job" of questioning a bit too seriously and make their line of questioning sound harsh and condescending. The vibe oftens turns from friendly to defensive when people start questioning in a rude and belittling way. There is a way to positively dissect and discuss an issue without having to make someone feel like they need to be on the defense.

Sure, if a concept is sound, defending it should be simple right? But too often people nitpick and spend more time trying to find any little thing wrong, as irrelevant(or not) as it might be, to try and engage a debate and discredit an idea.

Lately I've seen arguments arise oddly because someone wasn't able to digest or decipher the info presented, or because someone hadn't read a specific book and questioned the authority of sources of info.

If you want to, you can find something wrong with anything, it doesn't take an extraordinary amount of genius. If you really want to help something progress, then your intentions will be abundantly clear. People aren't getting offended or bothered for no reason.......

"Hard" questioning isn't positive or conducive to a working environment, rather, it makes the environment hostile and stagnant, so I personally see no reason it should be defended.

Some people need to read certain books before they comment on the content of those books. I'm by no means a rich man, and I managed to squeeze $45 out of my pocket to buy Ian Humes book. If glider information is important to a person, they should have no problem finding the money. I've even offered to lend it to a number of people, postage included. It's worth it. I think that this would eliminate a large amount of debates and misunderstandings.

If one wants to debate diet, why wouldn't they make sure they're as well read as they can be? If the knowledge isn't at hand, seek it. If they don't, it must not mean that much....so why even debate?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 06:08 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 06:37 AM

Yes research shows that captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diets should be changed seasonally!

Why don't you take a second look at this so-called junk science -
Brian Rich

Wombaroo products as well as Wombaroo High Protein Supplement are & have been fed to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s in CAPTIVITY. as well as many other mammals in many Zoos across the nation - Wombaroo has been in business for over 25 years.

As for Ian Hume - Marsupial Nutrition (1999)

Ian D Hume is Challis Professor of Biology at the University of Sydney. He has carried out research in the field of comparative nutrition in the USA, Germany, Sudan and Japan, as well as in Australia. His book Digestive Physiology and Nutrition of Marsupials (1982) won the Whitley Award for Best Text Book from the Royal Zoological Society of New South Wales. He has co-authered Comparative Physiology of the Vertebrate Digestive System (1993), and co-edited Possums and Gliders (1984), and Kangaroos, Wallabies and Rat-kangaroos (1989). Professor Hume is currently a managing editor of Journal of Comparative Physiology B and his research has been widely published in many international journals.


Randy - If a person cannot come up with aprox $40 to get excellent information & to learn about their exotic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diet requirements & would rather listen to people claiming that published researchers such as Brian Rich & Ian Hume's work is junk science, than they sure are not going to progress learning about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diets.

Should we listen more to Charlie & Randy's proper diet info or more to the published researchers such as Ian Hume & Brian Rich (just to name a couple) -hummmm

Both Charlie & yourself claim that captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> research info is not out there - why don't you two spend a little more time looking & less time being so critical of others research!

It is OUR job to teach our veterinarians or get information to them because it is us that will lose our <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s if we don't!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 09:36 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Why don't you take a second look at this so-called junk science -
Brian Rich

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]I see an awful lot of talk about birds; but not much about gliders??? [/]




</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...Randy - If a person cannot come up with aprox $40 to get excellent information & to learn about their exotic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diet requirements & would rather listen to people claiming that published researchers such as Brian Rich & Ian Hume's work is junk science, than they sure are not going to progress learning about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diets...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] Pockets: I have a B.A. in science and have to work pretty hard to understand the nutritional information that I run across. One very critical point you seem to overlooked is that a lot of the GC members that you are talking to are HS/college kids who would be severely challenged to figure out how many ounces a 100 gram glider weighs. Even assuming that everyone is ready willing and able to spend somewhere between $70 and $140 for the book(according to Amazon.com), most of these folks do not have the educational back ground to get much useful information out of an advanced text like Hume's book. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...Should we listen more to Charlie & Randy's proper diet info or more to the published researchers such as Ian Hume & Brian Rich (just to name a couple) -hummmm...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I think if you go back through this thread, you will find that I did not offer any diet info.....just asked a few questions to better understand about PML and pointed out a couple of pieces of inaccurate information that were posted by various folks!! And if we are going to get technical here, I don't see that either Ian Hume or Brian Rich has offered his stamp of approval to the partial diet that Pockets is using???[/]


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...Both Charlie & yourself claim that captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> research info is not out there - why don't you two spend a little more time looking & less time being so critical of others research...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] About three years ago I started a little project that I posted on GC about. Fired up a couple of couple of Internet search engines and located every Internet site I could find having to do with gliders....I'm sure I missed some information; but I found something on the order of 1700 US sites, several hundred European sites, a hundred or so Asian/Pacific sites and a handful from South America. Over a period of 6 or 8 months, I visited every one of those sites and learned a great deal about our little furbuttz.
For Pockets to suggest that I need to spend more time researching gliders is probably a suggestion that she would like to have back. Additionally, the claim is continually made that there is a lot of research out there.......funny that with all of this research, that only one book is ever mentioned....Hume's book??? To me, lots of research suggests that there are 10...15...maybe 20 books out there on gliders?? If there is so much research out there how about sharing some of it with us poor folks who are not fortunate enough to have access to it?? I don't mind getting hammered when I screw up or do something stupid.....but I sure don't like getting accused of things I'm not guilty of and that's what's happening here. [/]

[:"blue"] I guess this is not much of a surprise to folks on GC; but apparently I have an entirely different philosophy about posting on GC than most. When I make a post, I want people to reply, I want people to ask questions and I want people to point out mistakes or concerns if they have any. When people respond to you it means they have given some thought to what you have said and it has had enough of an impact to elicit a response. There is nothing I hate more than making a post and getting no response whatsoever. When somebody disagrees with something I have to say, I don't take it personally.....unless it is personal, which happens on occasion.....I just take it as an honest difference of opinion. I defend my opinion as best I can or or change it if there is a strong argument that a change is necessary. I'm not crazy about people pointing out my mistakes; but would rather have that than let a mistake stand and mislead or confuse other members of GC. In my opinion, too many people wear their hearts on their sleeve and are more worried about getting their feelings hurt than they are about the substantive discussion and exchange of information. If we were discussing these issues in a high school or college classroom, I doubt that too many instructors would be moved by the argument that "someones got their feelings hurt."

OK....I'm done....take your best shot!!! [/]
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 04:48 PM

Randy I'm suprised that you don't refer to or ever seem to include Australian marsupial info. Much of the info from the US veterinarians, if you listen, is taken from the exact books & sources I refer to. A few of the educated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> vets do & have visited Australia - searching out info, isn't that strange! Imagine going to Australian sources for info.

Randy the Wombaroo product I have been speaking of is used as the protein supplement in the PML (as Peggy so kindly stated)- which is a modified Leadbeaters' mix, & Bourbon herself has clearly stated, that high protein cereal has not been available in the USA - this product has been used in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> diets for many years in Australia - hardly a fad diet sham!

To even insinuate I am out here to harm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s is ridiculous!

I only wished to share this Australian product with a few, you certainly are not required to use it.
I don't understand why you guys would feel the the need to slam this product, my info & sources as junk science - makes absolutely no sense to me!

I'm done stirring up the board now & will have a web-site down-line soon, for those who are open-minded & wish to look at other diet options.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 05:54 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Why don't you take a second look at this so-called junk science -
Brian Rich


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">I see an awful lot of talk about birds; but not much about gliders???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Randy, why don't you look a little deeper than the first page? There are many pages of info relating to the numerous products they have developed.

I believe Pockets intention was to display the lengths gone to create the Wombaroo supplements as well as the history behind them.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I guess this is not much of a surprise to folks on GC; but apparently I have an entirely different philosophy about posting on GC than most. When I make a post, I want people to reply, I want people to ask questions and I want people to point out mistakes or concerns if they have any. When people respond to you it means they have given some thought to what you have said and it has had enough of an impact to elicit a response. There is nothing I hate more than making a post and getting no response whatsoever. When somebody disagrees with something I have to say, I don't take it personally.....unless it is personal, which happens on occasion.....I just take it as an honest difference of opinion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This philosophy sounds nice and positive when spoken of here, but why are people getting offended and perturbed? A line of questioning need not be condescending nor rude to achieve results. I think being tactless and unfriendly certainly has it's disadvantages. I don't think it's any huge mystery why a number of people are bothered?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
In my opinion, too many people wear their hearts on their sleeve and are more worried about getting their feelings hurt than they are about the substantive discussion and exchange of information.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Wearing your heart on your sleeve or being consistently and outrightly rude to "achieve results", which is worse? I suppose neither is more or less conducive to a productive debate....

Although one claims that he's just looking for the truth, the route of trying to make one someone look like an idiot is often taken. This perception is not unfounded. I may be wearing my heart on my sleeve.... but I think that my feelings are justified on the issue, and many others will agree with me.

It is possible treat someone like you're working on the same goal, keep things friendly, and still rigorously question their information. Problem is, people don't seem to take that approach all too often, they'd rather stand from the other side of the fence and throw rocks and wonder why people get bothered......

This topic is not being debated for no reason, obviously people want to see a different attitude, some people need to accept responsibility for their methods rather than continue to defend them and act like everyone else is the problem!
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 06:45 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
the best place to learn about animals is from their native countrymen.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Does this mean we need to focus on Indonesia and New Guinea? Those are the places most of the imported gliders have come from in the past few years.

Big Ern you shouldn't be jumping on Randy for asking a civil question that needs to be answered. It seems to me that the ones coming up with the idea of introducing certain items to the gliders diet are the ones that become upset most. If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use. And the standard answers like because it is a part of the wild gliders diet, or that is what our favorite author recommends, or that is the way they do it in the Australian zoo are not adequate answers.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 09:22 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
the best place to learn about animals is from their native countrymen.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Does this mean we need to focus on Indonesia and New Guinea? Those are the places most of the imported gliders have come from in the past few years.

If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use. And the standard answers like because it is a part of the wild gliders diet, or that is what our favorite author recommends, or that is the way they do it in the Australian zoo are not adequate answers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

To answer your question: Yes, by all means Charlie, please take the initiative Pockets has taken & contact specialists in other countries where gliders live in the wild, including Indonesia & New Guinea. I would love to hear your findings! In fact, I happen to know that glider diets differ between most of Australia & these 2 regions including the Northern Territory of Australia, as I have been researching other regions. I happen to know that insects are more prevalent in the latter regions, increasing glider's protien intake & eliminating breeding season (the gliders can breed year long as in captivity). Just a bit of trivia for ya!

And what is wrong with trying to mimic a wild glider's diet? Isn't it logical to try to match, as closely as possible, the foods they might eat in their natural habitat? Nature has a reason for everything! There's a reason that peas and carrots don't grow in the Eucalypt forests of Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania. Of course gliders aren't native to Tasmania, they were introduced - but you knew that. If you want an example and not just my word that I've read it - go to your local library reference section & take a look at Grzimek's Encyclopedia Mammals Vol. 1 (MacGraw-Hill). It lists the diet of a Sugar Glider as: Nectar, Pollen, Tree Sap, and Insects. Walker's Mammals of the World lists: Sap, Blossoms, Nectar, Insects and their Larvae, Arachnids, and Small Invertabrates. I could keep going if you like, but I can tell you it would take days. However, you don't seem to want references from the folks that want you to feed apples, yogurt, papaya, mango, green beans, or countless other item not found on any list in any book I've read.

Obviously there are a lot of people that believe Pockets has plenty of adequate answers.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/02/05 11:43 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Big Ern you shouldn't be jumping on Randy for asking a civil question that needs to be answered. It seems to me that the ones coming up with the idea of introducing certain items to the gliders diet are the ones that become upset most. If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use. And the standard answers like because it is a part of the wild gliders diet, or that is what our favorite author recommends, or that is the way they do it in the Australian zoo are not adequate answers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">Should I say, "because Charlie and Randy can't find anything wrong with it?" Would that suffice?
I'm not really sure that anyone can tell me if my gliders came from New Guinea or Indonesia or Australia. What if they did descend from a line of Australian gliders? There is no way of establishing either way. Evidence has not been provided that the difference in habitat and origin has led to the development of specific digestive adaptations unique to a given region and the food provided by it.

I'm totally fine with the questions, I've made that abundantly clear. I like to answer good questions placed with positive and productive intentions of fostering a civil and friendly debate.
It's how they are asked and the tact and wording that the questions are placed with. That's what I have a problem with....
These diet discussions usually start out peaceful and productive until certain people have to enter with their attitudes, and then things just go downhill..... We've seen it instigated time and time again.

Like I said, when people bring up new ideas, they are made to feel like someone is standing on the other side of the fence hurling rocks at them. Wouldn't it make sense to treat them as if you are on the same team working for the same goal? I don't see that approach taken by certain people very often and then you wonder why I get frustrated and end up sounding like I do now?

I've seen information posted by Doctors, Veterinarians, Zookeepers, people that have done extensive research on marsupials, and gliders. But all I hear is,
"That's not adequate"
"Most vets don't know anything about gliders anyways"
"So they wrote a book, so what?"
"that's not specific enough to gliders"
"that's not proven"
"our gliders aren't even from there anyways"

There is a healthy level of skepticism, and there is a ridiculous level of skepticism.....

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Can you tell me why I shouldn't consider using such items? Just because one doesn't know what the ultimate outcome is and because one hasn't dug deeper than the surface to find the answer to the things that so much time has been spent "rigorously questioning" doesn't mean that everyone else is consequently incorrect because of one's personal lack of information and research. I don't recall any information being presented as proof that any of these items are detrimental to a gliders health other than one's lack of knowledge. If you could point me to any information pertaining to the safety or dangers of feeding acacia gum, wombaroo high protein(not the milk replacer!), and bee pollen, please do produce it and let us see!

I want to see someone provide me the story of a rescue that was fed bee pollen and acacia gum as part of a balanced diet and consequently had to be rehabilitated on BML.

There is no validity in using the stories of rescues that are taken in as proof that ALL dietary experimentation is harmful. Most if not all of the rescues taken in are not from people who have access to the internet to research and think for themselves. These rescues are likely from the people who have bought their gliders at a flea market too early from a mass breeder who told them to feed their glider bird seed and fruits so that they would buy the glider thinking that it is an easy and cute pet to take care of...

I personally have presented much info on both pollen and acacia gum, and I haven't been given much reason to believe that the most staunchly skeptical have even taken the time out of their day to read it! Barely anyone elaborates on the information presented, except to tell me what it is missing, not what it means. All I hear is we don't know, we don't know, we don't know. We don't even know what the outcome of feeding BML for more than a few years is! While the lifespan of a glider in captivity is rumored to be about 12 years or so, as far as I know, BML has not been around that long. In my opinion, there is no path more truly proven than that of mother nature, so I chose to implement her ideas as well as I can. I find it odd that one will staunchly support feeding items that a glider would never ever see in it's lifetime in the wild on any continent in any habitat anyhow, but then criticize the use of something that a number of gliders in a number of different habitats eat and have eaten for millenia that is supprted by information and texts written by DOCTORS who have observed actual gliders in the wild and their feeding habits, and then proceed to call the idea NEW! HA! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Fad Diets - 05/03/05 12:40 AM

This thread is heading the wrong way, starting to get to far on the abusive side. We have been trying hard to keep these threads going and several posts have been edited, but the flamming is starting to get more persistent and out of hand. We all know the rules here at GC. If this thread continues on the path its going, it will be locked and removed!!!
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Fad Diets - 05/03/05 12:53 AM

Ok, just to throw in a little something here. I have no idea where my line of gliders originated but I do know the gliders in my house right now were all born in the US. What difference is that going to make?

How long should a diet be fed to gliders to earn a stamp of approval? 1st generation? 2nd? 3rd? I am currently on my third generation on my diet but he is still under a year old. At which point would my diet become proven? Would it only be proven IF some "experts" researched it and broke it down to its components and analyzed the nutrient in it? Or would it become proven IF my third generation lives past 12 years old?

I am not trying to be a smart aleck but well, honestly, how "proven" are the other diets? What earned them the "proven" title?

Also, I would like to point out that Moderators are all members first, moderators second. We were asked to be moderators because of our involvement in GC. I will gladly turn in my title of Moderator if my comments and questions bother other members. I only ask that all members keep in mind that I am a member first and am entitled to make posts like everyone else, within the rules of membership of GC.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/03/05 03:11 AM

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I'm not really sure that anyone can tell me if my gliders came from New Guinea or Indonesia or Australia. What if they did descend from a line of Australian gliders? There is no way of establishing either way. Evidence has not been provided that the difference in habitat and origin has led to the development of specific digestive adaptations unique to a given region and the food provided by it.

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Good going, Ern! As I mentioned in a previous thread, Pockets also mentioned to me that our gliders likely came from populations of gliders imported from all over as opposed to only Indonesia and New Guinea, both legally and illegally. Thus, even if gliders did adapt to the specific flora and fauna of specific regions, the genes would have certainly mixed and made for some sort of broadening of acceptable nutrient amount thresholds.

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I am not trying to be a smart aleck but well, honestly, how "proven" are the other diets? What earned them the "proven" title?

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I'm suddenly reminded of back when I was still a newbie on the board and I had just registered, and I got slammed for bringing this up. It's great to see that there is an understanding of terms. Great post, Dancing! I agree.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/03/05 02:11 PM

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Yes research shows that captive 's diets should be changed seasonally!

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OMG I had a feeling that was the case with seasonally changing captive diets! Last time I brought that up when I first joined I started a huge diet war that was quite traumatic for me! LOL.

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Additionally, the claim is continually made that there is a lot of research out there.......funny that with all of this research, that only one book is ever mentioned....Hume's book??? To me, lots of research suggests that there are 10...15...maybe 20 books out there on gliders??

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I just wanted to add quickly that in Marsupial Nutrition alone there exactly 50 pages of external scientific references, reports, and studies in the reference index.

Although Ian Humes' publication may still be rather complex, I'm almost certain it's one of the more simpler and user-friendly scientific papers, and it peices together information found from other studies in a manner that makes for relatively easy reading. I'd bet most of the scientific references that are used in Ian Humes' publication are rather intensive, complicated (I bet most would still be in SCIENETIFIC METHOD format), and/or are not readily available/accessible to the public (like Marsupial Nutrition is), for instance only presently being found in select university library archives in Australia (or with Pockets! LOL.).

This would explain why the publications of Ian Humes and those of others like him, would naturally be brought up more than other references, simply for the purposes of us normal folk.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/03/05 07:59 PM

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I just wanted to add quickly that in Marsupial Nutrition alone there exactly 50 pages of external scientific references, reports, and studies in the reference index.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Isn't that insane!? 50 pages of just references, lol, I hate citing references, I couldn't imagine that many....

I too wonder what garnered the stamp of "proven" for a diet? What diet(s) are "proven"?
What will it take?

I've got 4th generation joeys coming raised on my diet. The parents have been raised on it, their grandparents on the mothers side were raised on it, and great grandparents on the grandpa's side were fed it for the last year and a half+ Does that at least take it out of the "fad diet" category, lol...
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Fad Diets - 05/04/05 10:53 AM

Ern if you are serious about having your sugar glider diet considered as an approved diet you should write it up in a professional manner and present it to some of the leading professionals in exotic nutrition. For instance Dr. Kathy Johnson Delaney, Dr. Diernfield or even Dr. Hume. Or maybe try the nutritionists at some of the major zoos. If you can get even one of them to approve it you have made a giant step. I am afraid getting the approval of only local exotic vets would not impress most glider owners.

Once you have the approval of one of the above you will need to get other glider owners outside your colony to use the diet. After a couple of years you can secure endorsements from other experienced glider owners about the success of your diet and you are well on your way to having an approved diet.

I realize it is a hassle and time consuming but I think if you follow my suggestions your diet will gain creditability.
Good luck in your venture.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fad Diets - 05/04/05 05:09 PM

Thanks for the suggestions Charlie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
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