GliderCENTRAL

Too much calcium?

Posted By: Trigger

Too much calcium? - 09/09/09 11:59 AM

While at the SGGA listening to guest speaker Dr. Bradley I heard her make comments on the diet, specifically I am asking about the possibility of too much calciium.
Dr. Bradley was informing the group that you can NOT give too much calcium if you are giving the calcium orally. Essentially the gliders will use what is needed and the left over will be expelled.

I have heard & read all along that too much calcium is just as bad as too little.

Would love some input on this.
Don't want to say "oh she's wrong" but I have never heard this before then.
Is this something that has been researched and found to be true in marsupials? I know in other animals, humans etc. there is research stating the negative effects of too much calcium.
I thought not long ago we were looking at calcium(the abundance) being the possible cause of crystals in urine and possible kidney problems.

It would be wonderful if this were the case, we could just heap on the calcium & voila no more worry about Ca:P ratios being upside down.
Posted By: CharmedSuggies

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/09/09 12:12 PM

I was not at the SGGA unfortunately but that is very interesting! All i've heard is the same thing "too much calcium is bad".
Posted By: CharmedSuggies

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 04:53 PM

No one with answers for this???
Posted By: MizValorie

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 04:55 PM

was not at the sgga but this is my take on it...Sounds a little to good to be true you know?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 05:40 PM

Bourbon and I were just talking about this... and I dont think we really KNOW.. ya know..

My personal take.. too much of anything is bad!

Here's a good quick read..
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA293439
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 07:20 PM

I took the question to my glider vet and she beleives that while it would probably be difficult for us to manage od gliders on JUST naturally occurring calcium in fruits, vegis & such we COULD easily do it with supplements & then yes it will cause problems in gliders just like any other animal.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 07:51 PM

I just spoke with Dr. Bradley on the phone and she repeated to me what she said at the SGGA about calcium not being able to be "overdosed" if given orally. However, she said that if you're adding calcium to an existing diet it should be Calcium Carbonate and NOT the calcium w/ Vit. D, just plain calcium carbonate because too much Vit. D can be harmful.
Posted By: Janie

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 08:41 PM

I asked my vet and he said the same thing Dr Bradley did. You cant OD them on Calcium given orally( he stressed the orally part). He did say that was not true for all vitamins and supplements thou.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 08:41 PM

Hmm...Even Tristan said that it IS possible to overdose calcium. When I go in I will ask him to be more specific on it.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 10:09 PM

Sorry but I tend to believe Dr. Bradley (and her experience) over Dr. Tristan. While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 10:16 PM

I remember reading a long time ago that it depends on the TYPE/KIND of calcium. Anyone?
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 10:45 PM

I also thought that was really interesting and discussed it with Bourbon at the SGGA. She said she did not think that was true, so when I got back I did ask my vet about it. Dr. Ness agreed that is not true and said you can have too much calcium in a diet which will cause crystals in the urine/kidney problems.

As always, maintaining the proper ratios in the diet is important. Giving too much CAN be just as bad as giving too little.

Dr. Ness used to breed gliders himself and has researched them in depth for many many years. There has yet to be research I bring/refer to that he is not familiar with.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Sorry but I tend to believe Dr. Bradley (and her experience) over Dr. Tristan. While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.


She kinda lost my confidence with the " there is no way to keep an e-collar on a glider" part of her presentation, sorry. This I know myself to be absolutely WRONG. I know because I have managed to do so twice myself & know for a fact Cora is pretty good with one too. So I don't think she knows absolutely everything there is to know about gliders.
If you remember T I beleive you or maybe B had to let her know that we(glider community) had figured out how and it was a very common practice when need be.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 11:52 PM

Quote:
While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.


Teresa, I think you are WAY mistaken here...I really dont think you have ANY idea HOW much experience Tristan has in the SUGAR GLIDER, SQUIRREL GLIDER, FEATHER TAIL, AND BRUSHTAIL Possum experience he HAS...So ah. Your wrong, he has TONS of experience AND he DOES realize that you CAN overdose a glider on Calcium and he also knows not only CAN a glider wear a ecollar and KEEP IT ON, he also knows HOW to put on one to make it STAY ON, AND he also knows the PROPER NUMBERS to go by to know when a gliders levels are off and not say, oh yea, that is normal. As soon as he seen the email I sent him he called me and told me to have Nicole have that gliders kidneys checked...he said that would be his FIRST step, whereas Bradleys first step was to look the numbers up.

So although she may be a WONDERFUL vet and she may do wonderful things, to say she is more experienced when you dont know for a FACT but it is just YOUR opinion....that one I would have to say your wrong.

But I would expect you to trust her more than Tristan. Afterall, she IS your vet.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135
I just spoke with Dr. Bradley on the phone and she repeated to me what she said at the SGGA about calcium not being able to be "overdosed" if given orally. However, she said that if you're adding calcium to an existing diet it should be Calcium Carbonate and NOT the calcium w/ Vit. D, just plain calcium carbonate because too much Vit. D can be harmful.


Nicole,
Unless gliders are outside in the sun for a min of 1 hour everyday.. they are not getting any from foods UNLESS fed seafood. There is very little to none in anything else.. I use Kirkman
because it is very low in D3 but we need to provide them something to help absorption. So I wonder what she recommends if not thru supplements?

My vet was on the fence about this and the way I understand it from him.. it's a controversial subject.


Edited to add
Quote:
Vitamin D toxicity usually results from taking an excessive amount of vitamin D supplements — not from your diet or too much sun exposure. That's because your body produces only a limited amount of vitamin D from sun exposure, and even fortified foods don't contain large amounts of vitamin D. Although vitamin D toxicity is rare even among people who take supplements, you may be at greater risk if you have health problems, such as liver or kidney conditions, or if you take thiazide-type diuretics.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/11/09 11:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.


Teresa, I think you are WAY mistaken here...I really dont think you have ANY idea HOW much experience Tristan has in the SUGAR GLIDER, SQUIRREL GLIDER, FEATHER TAIL, AND BRUSHTAIL GLIDER experience he HAS...So ah. Your wrong, he has TONS of experience AND he DOES realize that you CAN overdose a glider on Calcium and he also knows not only CAN a glider wear a ecollar and KEEP IT ON, he also knows HOW to put on one to make it STAY ON, AND he also knows the PROPER NUMBERS to go by to know when a gliders levels are off and not say, oh yea, that is normal. As soon as he seen the email I sent him he called me and told me to have Nicole have that gliders kidneys checked...he said that would be his FIRST step, whereas Bradleys first step was to look the numbers up.

So although she may be a WONDERFUL vet and she may do wonderful things, to say she is more experienced when you dont know for a FACT but it is just YOUR opinion....that one I would have to say your wrong.

But I would expect you to trust her more than Tristan. Afterall, she IS your vet.


LOL What was it you said yesterday?? For the first time in a long time, I agree with you?? LOL
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 12:11 AM

Quote:
LOL What was it you said yesterday?? For the first time in a long time, I agree with you?? LOL



agree roflmao
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 12:32 AM

honestly- I will step in here too.. Too much of anything even taken orally still needs to be processed in some form by the body. Dr Bradley bothered me a lot in some of what she said to be honest because it wasn't based on accepted research in the animal OR HUMAN worlds (I have been talking to Dr Dierenfeld about possibly doing research with her in the future and mentioned this statement ot her...)

Also- from what we know- its possible gliders don't need ANY vit D in their bodies other than the small amounts they get via various dietary sources in the wild. as today's news proved- not all creatures process bodily functions the same way- that was related to a new study on nerve responses that they had been basing prior supposition on a detailed study of squid and recently discovered that in mammals the process and energy needed is totally different. Assuming a glider processes foods the same as a human is just that ASSUMING and as I firmly believe: assume is [censored] of u and me

Amie
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 01:00 AM

Quote:
Also- from what we know- its possible gliders don't need ANY vit D in their bodies other than the small amounts they get via various dietary sources in the wild


Yes! When my vet and I were working on my diet... at first we didnt add any D3... then thru more research decided it would be best to add some in very small amounts.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 01:21 AM

When I was speaking to Dr. Tristan about adding calcium to the HPW diet she told me to add the calcium carbonate, rather then the reptile calcium I'd been using. She was already familiar with the HPW diet, so I assume she told me that because HPW already has Vit. D. So, if I were to add more, it could be harmful. That's why I said "if you're adding calcium to an existing diet" cause I didn't want to confuse it with just adding calcium to a diet that you've created yourself or a diet that CALLS for adding the calcium w/ Vit. D. wink
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 01:53 AM

Quote:
When I was speaking to Dr. Tristan about adding calcium to the HPW diet she told me to add the calcium carbonate, rather then the reptile calcium I'd been using.


I think you meant to say Dr.Bradley because Tristan is a him and he has always told me no additional calcium was required.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 04:14 AM

Dr Bradley is ONE of my vets, not my only vet. I actually have three different vets that I take my gliders to. (and two different vets for my dogs and yet another one for my horses)

But when comparing vets, look at how long they have been vets. There is quite a great deal to be said for vets that graduated vet school in 1990 compared to 2003? One of my vets graduated in 1971 I believe.

But we've been down this road before.

As I've said, I think it is great when any vet wants to learn and especially those that are willing to do so much in the way of research. We do need more like that.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 04:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
When I was speaking to Dr. Tristan about adding calcium to the HPW diet she told me to add the calcium carbonate, rather then the reptile calcium I'd been using.


I think you meant to say Dr.Bradley because Tristan is a him and he has always told me no additional calcium was required.


Yep, sorry, my brain is fried, lol.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 04:23 AM

Why does everyone suggest using calcium carbonate over calcium citrate? Ive read that calcium citrate is easier to absorb...?
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 04:43 AM

I have no idea, I'm just saying what Dr. Bradley said. tounge

Now you've got me curious...* off to google it!* roflmao
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 04:57 AM

Teresa, how long a vet has been a vet has nothing to do with anything. They are no different than anyone in any other field. They are human. Some absorb knowledge faster than others and then we have some vets that simply (like many fields) are only in it for the money and don't care how much they learn, only how much they EARN. NOT saying this about your vet, just an example.

People will learn much more when they are willing and WANT to learn.

I would rather have my vet tell me she doesn't know something than to have her pull up numbers out of a book that gives examples of dogs and cats.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 05:08 AM

Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
I would rather have my vet tell me she doesn't know something than to have her pull up numbers out of a book that gives examples of dogs and cats.


In Dr. Bradley's defense, that's not what she did... She said she didn't know and that for a dog/cat that level was normal and that's why she thinks my vet may not have said anything about it being high. She told me that she'd look it up to make sure and would get back to me with the correct information.

Personally I wouldn't want a vet to tell me wrong info OR to just tell me "I don't know". I want a vet that, if they don't know something, then they'll say, "I don't know, but I'll find out for you."

That's how MY vet is and it's one of the reasons I like her so much. I've got to 2 other vets nearby and the first one pretty much said, "I don't know what's wrong and I don't care enough to find out" and the other didn't even talk to me in person and ended up mis-diagnosing and mis-treating my gliders because he THOUGHT he was all-that and didn't even take a second glance to re-check everything.

Just my $0.2. lol
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 02:18 PM

Quote:
She said she didn't know and that for a dog/cat that level was normal


One of my points exactly, when I sent over your paper Nicole, Tim said those numbers ARE way too high, have her check the kidneys as that is the first thing he would do. He knew right then and there, he wasnt uncertain, nor did he need to look it up.

Not in any way saying he is perfect, but to say one vet has more experience then another because of the year they graduated, well, that is not a way to determine things.

Hands on experience with things is MUCH better than book knowledge if you ask me anyway. But that is just my opinion...

Sorry Trigger, lets get this back on topic!! blush
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135


Personally I wouldn't want a vet to tell me wrong info OR to just tell me "I don't know". I want a vet that, if they don't know something, then they'll say, "I don't know, but I'll find out for you."

That's how MY vet is and it's one of the reasons I like her so much.


That's how my main vet is too! And while she's not an exotic vet, I prefer her to my two exotic vets. She's willing to do phone consults with glider experienced vets, researches constantly, wants to learn more about gliders, listens to my advice/experiences/wishes and isn't "too full of herself" to let me know if/when I need to go to one of my exotic vets because the circumstances are over her head. All this and she's much less expensive than my exotic vets. Plus, she has a wonderful bedside manner, both with my babies and with me!
Posted By: mommawannabe

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 02:56 PM

calcium citrate is easier to absorb. Just going by myself and my experiences with my gastric bypass. I have been told by my doctor and a pharmicist that it needs to be citrate because due to the surgery and what was taken out my body cannot absorb the other fast enough before it passes out of the body. But I have also been told to take vitD to help with the absorption. Not sure if this has anything to do with gliders. Just saying that is what I have been told since 07 when I had my surgery.

Hope this helps.

Anna
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/12/09 03:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Rita
Why does everyone suggest using calcium carbonate over calcium citrate? Ive read that calcium citrate is easier to absorb...?


Rita.. I dont think it's 'more' recommended.. just easier to find and cheaper.
Rep-cal is made from oyster shells. Calcium Carbonate is found in rock, eggs shells, snails etc. Citrate is calcium salt of citric acid. So it depends on what kind of diet you feed.. PH plays a role

http://www.healthcastle.com/calciumcarbonate-calciumcitrate.shtml

I use one with both..

http://www.allstarhealth.com/f/kirkman-calcium_powder_with_vitamin_d_hypoallergenic.htm
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/13/09 01:16 AM

Thank you, Kris! The article is very informative. And I didnt realize you could get calcium with both citrate and carbonate - guess what I will be ordering when mine runs out? grin
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/15/09 03:09 AM

oh god, this battle of which vet is better is really getting old,..

fact is right now no one, repeat NO ONE knows how the gliders process their calcium.. or which calcium works better for the gliders, or whether or not they absorb more than the other marsupials, mammals etc..

there was some interesting questions posed here recently, and instead of arguing which vet knows more, how about someone who believes in the HPW wholeheartedly, take a chance of placing a glider on strictly the HPW mix, to find out how they do with it, we already know that the calcium levels going in are low, but the levels in the blood are showing a much higher figure.

again could it be that the gliders don't need that much calcium, not just d3 but the calcium itself?

I personally would love to know,

as for whether a glider can get too much calcium in their diet, I personally have never seen or heard where gliders have gotten any crystals built up around or in their organs. although in humans that is where it would show up. crystals in the urine, I have seen more with gliders adding the higher acidic foods to their diets, as modifications to the bml, which is why the ph in the diet also plays a very important role.

so if a glider can get too much "calcium" is news to me, except as was mentioned if their is already a problem in their system.

Quote:
I have been told by my doctor and a pharmicist that it needs to be citrate because due to the surgery and what was taken out my body cannot absorb the other fast enough before it passes out of the body.


the oyster shell calcium actually processes slower and absorbs slower and what the body doesn't used is passed out as waste. whereas the carbonate, is absorbed much faster

but before anyone changes their plan or modifies anything, please find out the above answers first.

The diets that are out there are starting points. it leaves room for growth, and much learning still needs to be done, but the right questions need to be asked, and to be honest each vet, not just Drs. Tristen or Bradley is based on THEIR education, THEIR experiences. I wouldn't disregard anything either one has to say, because I believe their responses are based on THEIR experience.

I have seen too many vets, give answers on what they know to be true, from their past studies, fact is there is more and more being learned everyday, there is research going on, maybe not here in the states, but still research is being done, and I don't know anyone that already knows everything that has been published, tried, failed, worked etc..

so these are the field studies cathy johnson delany has been repeating over the years,

who has enough faith in the HPW to feed it alone, and have their glider constantly blood checked to see how the calcium works heads up?

I have enough faith in the BML to do it.. that would be on the upper end, who is willing to do it with the HPW on the lower end?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/17/09 02:57 PM


I can not WAIT to see the results you get from BML..
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/17/09 03:10 PM

There was a study done with diets awhile back involving Suncoasts gliders, BML was in that study.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/17/09 03:44 PM

Yes we know.... have you seen the blood panels from those gliders?
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/19/09 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
Yes we know.... have you seen the blood panels from those gliders?


I have seen the study and the end results of the study. Were individual blood panels done?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/19/09 01:58 PM

Individual panels were drawn at the beginning, but the end results were "pools"

I will upload it again for everyone.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/19/09 02:01 PM

Here ya go

Attached File
GliderPaper.pdf  (28 downloads)
Posted By: Mel2mdl

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/19/09 03:23 PM

Peggy has been feeding HPW exclusively for awhile. She has posted blood work on her boy that was weaned and raised on HPW. If I remember correctly his blood work was great.
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/19/09 07:10 PM

Would there be anything wrong with adding the Calcium (Repcal) with no Phosophorus or no Vit D to the HPW diet? It is the green label.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 09:08 AM

Sheila, I don't really think now is the time to do any changing in the diets , any of them, at least until we know how the calcium is actually being processed.

let me explain, I have had several people call me recently about going back to the BML, and asking about adding calcium into their HPW.

Kris has a great idea to get the bloodwork done, not just for the people on HPW but as many people and as varied as possible, to really see what the figures all look like. there is several that is willing to change up in their diets after a panel is run, to see what kind of changes are taking place.

I for one am willing to get the bloodwork done on mine, then switch their diets to the straight BML mix, to see if the calcium levels raise according to what we are feeding,

this doesn't require anything from most people, except to have the blood levels checked, and keep a tight journal on what they are feeding. They can use their own vets, keep their gliders in their normal routines, they don't even have to work out their own figures. they don't have to do all of their gliders, and they don't have to change their diets.

the key to the success of this study, is simple be honest about what is fed, and have the blood work drawn.

It will give the group that is working on this the opportunity to look at all of the diets and the effects the differences in calcium intake has on the bloodwork figures.

but at least if their bloodwork comes back at a fairly decent range, they will feel much safer as to what they are feeding.

Molly, yes, Peggy did post her bloodwork figures, and trust me that is where many of the questions really started, since the diet going in was near a 1:1 ratio and yet her bloodwork came back with a 2:1 ratio. This is not in anyway shape or form to say anything against Peggy or the HPW, but more to find out if the requirements of the gliders calcium intake and phos levels (here in the states, in captivity) needs to be a 2:1 ratio at all, or if the gliders has a special way they are metabolizing their calcium needs. The results of this community study, will make huge impacts in the diet areas, and will probably affect all of the diets. So at this time, the best we can do is to get our bloodwork done, and see what is going on with many gliders, not just a few.

everyone chose their current diet for a reason, and should stick with those choices, till at least blood work is drawn.

up to this point we have been going by the figures set for us by the research done in Australia. and interestingly enough, they can't agree either.

interesting read by an australian researcher.

Quote:
ARE PATTERNS AND CAUSES OF PAST MAMMAL DECLINES RELEVANT TO FUTURE CONSERVATION?
Ford, Fred1 and Dickman, Chris2
1School of Botany and Zoology, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT, 0200.
2School of Biological Sciences, University of Sydney, NSW 2006
Australia’s ecosystems are now mostly artificial. From the top-down and bottom-up, key roles are filled by introduced
plants, consumers and predators. Yet autecological studies still often report results as if they were based on examination of “natural” systems. In the new ordering of Australian ecosystems, many mammals are probably denied the capacity to behave, reproduce, forage and occupy habitats as they did prior to European settlement. We are still in the early stages of adjustment of the fauna to that event, and it is no surprise that many ecological studies report conflicting results over diet, habitat use and other ecological traits from remnant populations of the same species. These are probably a small subset of a much more diverse ecology 200 years ago. For conservation, the challenge is whether to maintain a narrow focus on the limited information that we have on local populations, or whether to expand the scope and scale of our efforts to re-instate or facilitate past species ecologies that we do not fully understand.
Furthermore, the widespread declines of mammals that occurred 100-150 years ago happened in a vastly different environment to today’s. Would we do better to experimentally focus on the intrinsic ecological abilities of target species, and on enhancing those abilities within the modern extrinsic environment, rather than inferring threatening processes and conservation issues from past events?


personally I think we should now concentrate on OUR gliders here in the states that are captive and see what the captivity changes, and the changes in their environments have led them, so we can help them.

without looking at what is going on as to what their needs are NOW, could we be doing them a grave injustice? is this the same place we are going to be 20 years later? OR are we going to make a choice to, at the minimum, TRY??


Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 09:35 AM

Bourbon,
Great comments. Always enjoy reading what you have to say. I would be interested in participating in this "blood" thing. However, I do not feed my gliders an "approved" diet by any means. But, I have had them a year, handraised one, and they are an active, big strong and healthy bunch with some of the nicest coats and tails I have seen. One in the bunch who eats everything I put in front of him every night, as opposed to the occassional pickiness the others have at times, has such a thick coat and great muscle tone that he just amazes me. He doesnt even look like the same species LOL and yet he is related to the others. PM me and let me know exactly what you want me to do. How often blood to be drawn, etc. The only thing I am concerned about at this point is actually taking them to the vet to have the blood drawn. How tramatic would that be for them? Perhaps I should do it only on the one that eats it all, as it would be easier to keep track of the diet as opposed to the others who dont? Let me know smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 12:21 PM

If anyone is interested please PM me..

I currently have about 5 people and I would love at least another 5. What diet. approved.. (hate that word)etc.. does NOT matter.. all names will remain anonymous.. so if you are feeding pizza.. no one will know YOU are the one that's feeding pizza.

Like B said.. only requirements are..1) have your gliders blood drawn checking ONLY ca:ph levels prior to starting.. of course you can run a full panel but for this study only ca:ph are being used. At this time we do not have any funds to help with your cost.. I am hoping to start a research fund for future studies.. I dont want to promise but we might be able to help with the final blood drawls.You do not have to do all your gliders but I'm hoping for at least 2 from each home participating. Gliders being tested need to be HEALTHY and between 6 mo-3 years old. 2) keep a feeding journal as detailed as possible.. (1 mealie, 1tbs strawberries) for 30 days. If you are feeding some of the recognized diets just say 1tbls BML.. You do not have to do any math, calculations, etc.. we will do all that for you... If you are feeding frozen mixes you will need to say 2 corn, 3 greens beans etc... we know most gliders are housed together.. dont worry about who is eating what.. it will balance..If you do have lots of left overs.. take note.. BUT you DO NOT have to be anal... really there is lots of wiggle room etc... 3)at the end of 30 days, have your gliders blood redrawn.

That's basically it! So, if anyone is interested shoot me a PM.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 01:59 PM

OK, I have an issue with this based on my theory that what I put in may have more BIOAVAILABLE calcium than what you FIGURE if you are just using a standard.

What I give may have the exact 1:1 ratio as a combination that you are feeding BUT say I am feeding a food that has a 75% available absorbable calcium & maybe 50% available absorbable phosphorus and the gliders are able to absorb 85%. Your food has lets say the opposite availability/absorbability. Lets just humor the situation and say our 2 gliders digestive system works identically, (we know this is not so because each is going to be different depending on EVERYTHING). Even tho our ratios going in are identical our numbers coming out won't be.
This is not dependent of only whatdiet you are feeding but dependent on every single food item offered.

We have no middle ground where you are with this. If the only change was our staple & everything else fed was identical we would at least be able to have staple & glider digestion as the variables involved. It would narrow things a little.
Even with feeding mealies there are variables involved with bedding, fruits vegis fed, what is used to gut load(if gut loaded at all) so you can't just calculate 5 mealies = ?:? ratio.

I don't have a problem with this being put out there but with it being put out there without explaining just how many variables are going to contribute to each outcome.

This is really about 100x more complicated than you are trying to make it.

Yes BLG just go ahead and call me anal now.

I wish you could find people that would agree to feed the same fruits, vegis & treats or skip treats for a couple months or so. This would at least take some of the variables away.

I would be willing to do so if asked, feed my HPW, frozen mixed vegi, and simple fruit combo(something agreed on by the majority) with those items being IDENTICAL every night.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 02:16 PM

Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
dont worry about who is eating what.. it will balance...


OK just have to question this, so in my trio cage Lucy is the first glider up ALWAYS and when corn is on the plate she eats EVERY kernel. Now by the time Skittles gets up there are only peas, grn. beans & carrots, he polishes off the peas & poor Caspian is left with carrots & green beans. He eats the carrots and in the morning I have some grn. beans left.

Are you telling me that all 3 of my gliders ratios are the same because it somehow balanced out? If so please explain.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 02:20 PM

I would like to see this taken to a more proffessional level. If we are going to do this thing, why not make arangement with a Vet or maybe a Vet school to do the studies? I think what is being planned now is a great idea, but parameters are too loose to call this true scientific research and there are many things that need to worked out before we start taking blood draws.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 02:23 PM

roflmao

Just have to laugh...I have been trying to get people to do blood work on their gliders along with xrays for YEARS now...FOR THIS REASON...

Only difference between you guys doing this and me...I had VETS involved that were going to keep up with the numbers and ones that knew EXACTLY what to look for...

I see you guys stating that you have a *group* working on this and *We* are doing that...yet although I have asked the question what THREE times now, I have yet to get an answer...

Bourbon, WHO is *This group* or *We* that you are working with.

Bottom line is I could not agree with Jennifer more in what she posted.

Folks, listen, there is NO NEED for ANYONE to go out and start panic mode on your diet or what you are feeding and oh my gosh the numbers just dont add up in the MIX itself...
Do yourself a favor and GO GET YOUR gliders tested and see how YOU are doing with YOUR gliders. I tried to show here that just because Nicole was having issues, it was not necessarily the diet itself as I have Dasher and although he even has a health issue his numbers for calcium/P was RIGHT ON TRACT...

As for how stressed is your gliders going to be...no need to worry, it really isnt a bad procedure. If your vet is not comfortable with doing it, please have them call Tristan 361-994-1145 he will go over with your vet and also I believe he has pics if needed.

Folks, Once again, please remember the DIET study that was being done a few years ago was done BY A VET and EVERY SINGLE item was noted. Although it does NEED to be done again, it needs to be done by a QUALIFIED team of PROFESSIONALS, not just by a group of us...so if you want to have a study done correctly, pool your money together and PAY a TEAM of PROFESSIONALS together to have it done.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 02:31 PM

Quote:
I would like to see this taken to a more proffessional level. If we are going to do this thing, why not make arangement with a Vet or maybe a Vet school to do the studies? I think what is being planned now is a great idea, but parameters are too loose to call this true scientific research and there are many things that need to worked out before we start taking blood draws.


We were posting at the same time Anita. I could not agree with you more!! They need to be kept with that group as well not just the numbers given.

Also I sent Tristan this question the other day...

Quote:
how much bone loss does a glider have to have in order for you to be able to see it on xray? Can you tell if a glider has MBD through xray and when you do, what is given to them to reverse this condition?



I just received his response...

Quote:
Its difficult to quantify the amount of bone loss before it is seen on radiographs, it can be very subjective. If you diagnosis MBD, then you have to determine the cause (ie low calcium in the diet, kidney failure, low levels of Vit D, etc.) Then you can determine how to treat. Most often it is dietary deficiency in calcium, but not always.
Tim
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 02:50 PM

Research…True research, has a method. It has checks and balances that make sure that the facts are true. It has a hypothesis that is either proven or disproven. I don’t mean any disrespect but many times we have seen good hearted people who honestly want to help go about it wrong. There is more to it than “If you have a sick glider, raise your hand”. And that type of research has led to speculation and kitchen table recipes being accepted as proven with no real scientific backing.

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate Dr Tristan and the other professionals that are trying to do research and do it the right way.

What I am saying is that maybe it is time for a real in depth diet study. Maybe we should pool our resources and see to it that it is done the right way
Posted By: Cora

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:33 PM

I just saw this thread because it was mentioned on another board. This is such a busy forum threads get missed easily.............LOL Anywho as I posted on the other board what are the NORMAL lab values for GLIDERS???? And how were thes values determined as Normal for gliders??? I need this info for my vet before I have any further blood work done. Thanks ahead of time!!
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:47 PM

I believe it was Adri that posted this before Cora. I am sure your vet has access to this as well. Good for everyone to have though.

Merck Veterinarian Manual
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:48 PM

Cora here are the tables from Merck Vet Manual
Merck
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:49 PM

EVERYONE PLEASE STOP!!!!

This is NOT a diet study.. this is strictly for preliminary results that we need to go forward... TGI will be doing all the paperwork for us getting a full grant.. yes with real labs, vets, nutritionist, checks and all the balances etc... WE NEED THIS FIRST!!

This is something small of about 10 people ... all results are going to and will be reviewed by 2 vets that we have on board with us.

posting this then I'll come back and answer your questions.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:54 PM

I still believe that the gliders IN this study need to be in the same type of environment, eating the same things having the same type of tests...

I would also like to have all the information as to WHO the people are working on this, vets information so I can call and ask any questions I may have and also have MY vet confirm things and find out exactly what would be needed, would like to know the name of the nutritionists involved along with their creditials, and how long and how much they have been working with exotics.

Once that information has been made public and references checked, I will then have my veterinarian forward any and all of my gliders information forward from past and present testing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
roflmao

Just have to laugh...I have been trying to get people to do blood work on their gliders along with xrays for YEARS now...FOR THIS REASON...

OK, did you? if so would you please share what you have received?

Only difference between you guys doing this and me...I had VETS involved that were going to keep up with the numbers and ones that knew EXACTLY what to look for...

We have 2 vets Peggy

I see you guys stating that you have a *group* working on this and *We* are doing that...yet although I have asked the question what THREE times now, I have yet to get an answer...


Bourbon, WHO is *This group* or *We* that you are working with.

You have not asked me this question at all.. much less 3 times.. It is approx 10 members of the community, currently 2 labs and 2 vets

Bottom line is I could not agree with Jennifer more in what she posted.

Folks, listen, there is NO NEED for ANYONE to go out and start panic mode on your diet or what you are feeding and oh my gosh the numbers just dont add up in the MIX itself...
Do yourself a favor and GO GET YOUR gliders tested and see how YOU are doing with YOUR gliders. I tried to show here that just because Nicole was having issues, it was not necessarily the diet itself as I have Dasher and although he even has a health issue his numbers for calcium/P was RIGHT ON TRACT...

WHICH is exactly where all this steamed from

As for how stressed is your gliders going to be...no need to worry, it really isnt a bad procedure. If your vet is not comfortable with doing it, please have them call Tristan 361-994-1145 he will go over with your vet and also I believe he has pics if needed.

Folks, Once again, please remember the DIET study that was being done a few years ago was done BY A VET and EVERY SINGLE item was noted. Although it does NEED to be done again, it needs to be done by a QUALIFIED team of PROFESSIONALS, not just by a group of us...so if you want to have a study done correctly, pool your money together and PAY a TEAM of PROFESSIONALS together to have it done.

as noted above TGI will be starting the grant process for just that.. this however is NEEDED first to attach to the grant paperwork.

We are also working on a research fund outside of the grant.. but that is for another day and topic


Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 03:59 PM

Quote:
This is NOT a diet study.. this is strictly for preliminary results that we need to go forward.



Kris if this is NOT a diet study what preliminary results ARE you trying to get? We already have what all the numbers in a blood panel are supposed to be. WHAT are YOU guys (who ever you guys are) trying to get 8forward with*??

I am ALL for research, but I need answers as to what you are trying to find out first.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
I still believe that the gliders IN this study need to be in the same type of environment, eating the same things having the same type of tests...

I would also like to have all the information as to WHO the people are working on this, vets information so I can call and ask any questions I may have and also have MY vet confirm things and find out exactly what would be needed, would like to know the name of the nutritionists involved along with their creditials, and how long and how much they have been working with exotics.

Once that information has been made public and references checked, I will then have my veterinarian forward any and all of my gliders information forward from past and present testing.


Peggy, I dont think you are understanding what we are looking for... we want varied diets, we want gliders at their homes, given treats... treated as it is any other day.. this is NOT a controlled study, nor do we want or need it to be. Your past results are not needed. If you want to participate PM me.

We will not have a nutritionist for this.. that will come later with the grant.. right now as I already said.. it's for preliminary numbers so we can move forward.. with 10 community members (who will remain anonymous), their gliders and 2 vets whom I will contact for their approval before posting them publicly.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:09 PM

Kris, can I please have names of ALL vets, people, nutritionalist etc that are CURRENTLY involved with all of this??

When I asked folks to get me blood work, I only had a few as many were hesitant to have their gliders put under for those things. Of course ALL this information was handed over to Tristan and is NOT currently in MY possession, as it wouldn’t do a bit of good for me to have it, but I am sure once Tim talks with those other vets, nutritionists involved, he can pass along info.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:13 PM

I think we are posting at the same time so after you go back and read all my posts.. let me know what questions you still have.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:13 PM

Im sorry but when I have a *research* going on it is brought forward with which vet and which group working with that vet is.

You came on here and it sounded to me and a few others that I have spoken to, that you already had your vets, teams, and such together. If someone was on board and believed in what kind of research was being done, there would be no reason to be a *silent partner* but that is just my own personal opinion.

Best of luck with what you all are trying to do. I do hope that you all get the grants you are trying for, as it isnt very easy even for a Veterinarian to get, little less a group of animal lovers. grin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Im sorry but when I have a *research* going on it is brought forward with which vet and which group working with that vet is.

You came on here and it sounded to me and a few others that I have spoken to, that you already had your vets, teams, and such together. If someone was on board and believed in what kind of research was being done, there would be no reason to be a *silent partner* but that is just my own personal opinion.

Peggy, we do already have 2 vets.. I am sorry *I* do not feel comfortable posting their names publicly before getting their approval.. to me that is just RUDE.. But I will be asking their permission to do so. If the people participating want to announce it to the world they most certainly can.. I however will NOT as some do NOT want their diets released with their names attached to be ridiculed.. So I will leave that up to them.

Best of luck with what you all are trying to do. I do hope that you all get the grants you are trying for, as it isnt very easy even for a Veterinarian to get, little less a group of animal lovers. grin

It is very difficult, my vet has been working with the National Zoo trying to get a grant for almost a year.. it takes a long time. TGI is however already pre-approved for grants.. Karen is starting the paperwork now, people and their gliders are in place, vets are on board.. we are getting it going. Thank you so much for your encouragement! grin

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:30 PM

Oh and Jen I was not ignoring you or Anita.. I just answered you both on SGN!
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
I don't really think now is the time to do any changing in the diets , any of them, at least until we know how the calcium is actually being processed. How will this community study show how calcium is being processed?

there is several that is willing to change up in their diets after a panel is run, to see what kind of changes are taking place. Change up how? and depending on what outcomes?

It will give the group that is working on this the opportunity to look at all of the diets and the effects the differences in calcium intake has on the bloodwork figures. What effect from differences are being looked for & will the calcium & phosphorus ratios be calculated simply as a whole or will there be work to figure the ACTUAL available absorbable content of food items that are fed by various members?

to find out if the requirements of the gliders calcium intake and phos levels (here in the states, in captivity) needs to be a 2:1 ratio at all, or if the gliders has a special way they are metabolizing their calcium needs. How will simply knowing if what goes in differs from what comes out in blood give us these answers?
The results of this community study, will make huge impacts in the diet areas, and will probably affect all of the diets. What HUGE impacts do you anticipate from this study?

everyone chose their current diet for a reason, and should stick with those choices, till at least blood work is drawn.
What conclusion from this study should indicate a change needed?



without looking at what is going on as to what their needs are NOW, How will this study tell us what their needs are now?


It appears to me from this post that detailed scientific data is being sought & useful conclusions anticipated??? Yet BLG states that this study is ONLY to see if Ca:P ratios fed match or vary from Ca:P seen in blood panels?????
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:38 PM

Kris I haven't made it back over to SGN but would like you to copy answers here as well so that GC may also follow.

I don't think that Peggy is asking for community members or their diets to be released publicly only the licensed personnel working on your project.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:46 PM

Quote:
EVERYONE PLEASE STOP!!!!

This is NOT a diet study..


Quote:
let me explain, I have had several people call me recently about going back to the BML, and asking about adding calcium into their HPW.

Kris has a great idea to get the bloodwork done, not just for the people on HPW but as many people and as varied as possible, to really see what the figures all look like. there is several that is willing to change up in their diets after a panel is run, to see what kind of changes are taking place.


Quote:
It will give the group that is working on this the opportunity to look at all of the diets and the effects the differences in calcium intake has on the bloodwork figures.



Quote:
let me know what questions you still have.


Quote:
Kris if this is NOT a diet study what preliminary results ARE you trying to get?



Also, yes, please do share what is being said over on SGN as not all of us are members over there. From what I understand though, many think this IS a DIET study as well, yet you stated Kris that it is not. I am not sure what this will be for then.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 04:51 PM

This endeavor is being attempted with the best of intentions, and I'm sure all glider supporters would like more and better information to better help their pets. However, this will not tell you what you hope to learn.

Calcium levels might be useful during a catastrophic illness in which normal homeostasis and physiology are way off kilter. Calcium metabolism can be very abnormal during shock and sepsis, and knowing the calcium status of an individual animal might be useful in such an event to be able to treat it effectively.

Testing blood calcium levels to verify diet effectiveness will not work. It simply will not.

The hormones that regulate calcium physiology will not allow blood levels to move outside the normal range. The mediators will enhance and increase absorption to gain more calcium out of the bioavailable diet load when need be (during low dietary intake). They will also pull calcium out of the bone to maintain blood levels. During periods of dietary excess they will also absorb less, and if overpowered by huge excess, will excrete more calcium in waste if bone stores are good. Measuring blood levels of calcium will not tell about dietary sufficiency directly. I fear this will subject gliders to significant stress without any hope of a useful outcome or information.

If we collectively choose to collect a database of all bloodwork to learn more about "normal" levels, there are a few issues to address. First, don't add data from blood draws from sick animals. Then you would not be looking at "normal" levels, but levels of sick individuals. Adding those would taint your result. Second, drawing blood from a sick indivual may have merit to help the sick. To draw blood on non-sick animals subjects them to risk and suffering without much benefit to offset that risk. If this project added useful information, one might argue benefit - but it won't add helpful data. And third, each lab has different ranges of normals. Although these don't vary widely, the fact that they have different processes and different reagents and equipment leads to some differences in the normal range quoted for each lab. As you pool this data from different sources, you will increase your mathematical range, not narrow it. Since calcium levels are held very tightly in a normal individual, the wide range you will be getting will not give you data that can help you make conclusions.

Before this project is far along and many have undergone expense and gliders pain and stress, consider the matter carefully. This will not give you conclusive data to help you decide about dietary sufficiency.

I would be happy to speak to someone with questions. I only wish to make sure gliders don't suffer needlessly.

My email is one the site.
Posted By: Cora

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:04 PM

Yes sir Schlep thats what my vet says as well. I just did not phrase my question correctly. Yes, my vet has access to the above mentioned MERK manual.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:13 PM

yes...after thinking about this some more, perhaps way too many variables for this to really work. Should be in controlled environment with different groups being fed diets and comparing results (like the previous posted article) Perhaps a wider range of diet types could be done this time.
large amount of gliders would need to be used as genetic differences MAY affect the way each glider processes its food (ie: why can some people eat like pigs and remain skinny yet I LOOK at cheescake and gain a pound!) I am sure this same kind of thing happens in animals as well. so a large amount of gliders to each diet to get a more acurate average would be needed.
if a glider eats a high calcium food one day but not the next how does that affect blood levels EACH day? think how that throws off the study.
think 2 blood draws is enough?
not sure about this. I think its a great idea, but I think it needs some "fine tuning"
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:14 PM

Well.. everyone can come to SGN..LOL


When I say this is NOT a DIET study I mean just that.. it is NOT a diet study...LOL but call it whatever you want..LOL We are pulling together 2 vets and approx 10 community members and their gliders to have serum levels checked for ca:ph ratios ONLY..we do not care what diet they are fed, as it does not matter! We want to see if feeding a diet of .8:1 to 3.6:1 ratios how that calcium is being used. We are looking for input and output only!

Again.. this little study is being done preliminary to getting a full grant. I am sure we will need to do several of these community studies for the grant paperwork and not just on c:p ratios.. it will likely be bone density mass, liver levels, etc etc etc and more etcs... we are starting here. We are hoping to have the first set of tests complete by the middle of Oct... we are moving on this while Karen is typing up paperwork for submission as this must accompany it.

Yes Schelp I just read your posts.. we are fully aware of all those concerns however.. this is the starting point we need for more information. We can't afford to have members take their gliders to have scans done on their bones to check for loss.. we need to show blood work/diet first.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:18 PM

Everyone please try to keep in mind this is ONLY needed to start the process of a controlled study. We can NOT afford 50k for a full blown diet study.. however we do have the ability to ask the gov for help for one cant we... again this is NOT controlled.. we need to start somewhere right? this is where we are being told we need to start.. .so lets start!
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
this is where we are being told we need to start.. .so lets start!


By whom?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:25 PM

Quote:
Testing blood calcium levels to verify diet effectiveness will not work. It simply will not.

The hormones that regulate calcium physiology will not allow blood levels to move outside the normal range. The mediators will enhance and increase absorption to gain more calcium out of the bioavailable diet load when need be (during low dietary intake). They will also pull calcium out of the bone to maintain blood levels. During periods of dietary excess they will also absorb less, and if overpowered by huge excess, will excrete more calcium in waste if bone stores are good. Measuring blood levels of calcium will not tell about dietary sufficiency directly. I fear this will subject gliders to significant stress without any hope of a useful outcome or information.


That is EXACTLY what we are looking at!! EXACTLY... We want to show that even though you get your gliders blood checked and you get back a ratio of 2:1 when you are ONLY feeding 1:1 where is the add'l calcium coming from... standard Xrays do not show a bone loss until you have lost approx 30%... scans are VERY expensive and this is IF you can find a vet that will have the proper equipments.. etc.. We want to know if gliders "store" their calcium.. can too much be toxic, can you really not give too much? These are all the things we are hoping to find the answers to.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:29 PM

crystal is urine? calcium deposits on bones..etc etc etc ..

People are thinking that because you have blood drawls and xrays done yearly.. their gliders diet is wonderful and they have healthy gliders.. this simply may not be the case.. we have gliders dying very young.. why?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:32 PM

Also not just what happens with the calcium but the ph as well!
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 05:39 PM

Quote:
we have gliders dying very young.. why?


Could be SOOO many reasons...

So lets start, yes of course it could be diet related along with...

Out of these young gliders, how many were supplemented? And I dont mean the ones that where the mother actually died, but those that the moms didnt want to feed.

Environment, illnesses that the owner may not have even known about, parasites that once again the owner did not know about winds up killing the glider, infections, there are SO many reasons why a glider can die young.

Look at some of the rescues that folks take in, some fed hamster or bird food, and they live to be 15 like pacman did. I am sure Pacman was not on a *approved diet* all his life, but do think because of the environment and care and love he got from Mary and Charlie is the reason he lived so long.

Why do some people die young? Personally, I think that if a diet is working for you and your gliders and you are indeed having your annual workups done, you will be able to see if numbers are changing. If they do, that is when you need to look into it further and ask yourself why.

Kris, you say it HAS to be 30% loss in order to see it, but I personally think that when I take my gliders in and they have their xrays done and when Tim takes out their old xrays and compares it, if there is ANY change, I bet he would be able to see it.

It would be interesting to see HOW the calcium is used, but like Trigger said up there somewhere earlier, you need to find out from EACH food you feed HOW much ca and how much Phosphorus is actually being used by each animal. Much like people, I am sure each animal will be different as well.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
we have gliders dying very young.. why?


Could be SOOO many reasons...

Of course that's true.. however.. why not start looking at diets?

So lets start, yes of course it could be diet related along with...

Out of these young gliders, how many were supplemented? And I dont mean the ones that where the mother actually died, but those that the moms didnt want to feed.

Environment, illnesses that the owner may not have even known about, parasites that once again the owner did not know about winds up killing the glider, infections, there are SO many reasons why a glider can die young.

Look at some of the rescues that folks take in, some fed hamster or bird food, and they live to be 15 like pacman did. I am sure Pacman was not on a *approved diet* all his life, but do think because of the environment and care and love he got from Mary and Charlie is the reason he lived so long.

How true that is... first no diet is "approved".. and that leaves the question.. what should we fed? Lets find out.. if feeding a diet with .8:1 ration no harm is really being done. Lets find out how long it takes of eating a diet not balanced before we see bone loss.. ever, never? let find out.

Why do some people die young? Personally, I think that if a diet is working for you and your gliders and you are indeed having your annual workups done, you will be able to see if numbers are changing. If they do, that is when you need to look into it further and ask yourself why.

Kris, you say it HAS to be 30% loss in order to see it, but I personally think that when I take my gliders in and they have their xrays done and when Tim takes out their old xrays and compares it, if there is ANY change, I bet he would be able to see it.

Its not me that says so.. its Dr's and vets that say so... let me ask you this... it you take in a glider for xrays and all looks good. next year same thing all looks great, following year again all looks good.. until the forth year when Tim sees something.. the standard xrays will NOT detect. show ANYTHING until a minium amount of loss is there... so now you are 4 years and bones loss... It's not personal against Tim or any vet.. my vet who has been in exotics for 25 years.. it the machine.. it's not there until its there... how long until its there?.. I want to find out!

It would be interesting to see HOW the calcium is used, but like Trigger said up there somewhere earlier, you need to find out from EACH food you feed HOW much ca and how much Phosphorus is actually being used by each animal. Much like people, I am sure each animal will be different as well.

Correct.. however that will NOT be my job, that will be a team of nutritionist, vets, scientist, labs etc... no me!

Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders


People are thinking that because you have blood drawls and xrays done yearly.. their gliders diet is wonderful and they have healthy gliders..


I would venture to guess that MOST people rely on their VET telling them if their gliders are healthy or not, when all outward appearances look fine. I do. If I thought I could just willy nilly guesstimate whether my glider was healthy I wouldn't need to go to a vet.

BLG you use a vet correct? Does your vet tell you during your visit whether your gliders are healthy or not, relying on their education, experience and knowledge of gliders along with tests to determine that opinion? When they give you the "healthy" or "unhealthy" do you question that or accept that?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:20 PM

You really think our vets know everything there is to know about our gliders? If that is the case.. then we should never do anything!
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:30 PM

No I do not think our vets know everything, I was simply stating that most of us don't just feed, see if the glider is still breathing & just assume that all is amazing.

We go find good knowledgable vets and have them checked routinely to catch problems & if I didn't trust my vet when she tells me my joeys are healthy then how could I realistically send one to a new home?

Again, do you trust your vets opinion for the most part when they tell you your glider is well or ill?
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:39 PM

You responded to my questions on SGN stating that people are feeding diets that are 1:1 and trying to feed 2:1 and your study is in part to determine if the diets are reaaly OK etc

Here is my response because I still DO NOT believe we as a community have the ratios per food item figured correctly & that being so, your tests will NOT give a true answer because it IMO is not based on REAL ratios from the get go.

"Subject: Re: Thinking out loud Today at 13:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to know but as I have stated before at this point WE don't really have a clue WHAT the ratios truly are at all.
We don't even understand yet that different foods have different amounts of available & absorbable minerals, nor how each is mineral is concentrated in which area of each food & all that has to be figured out before you can even tell me WHAT ratio is going in.

Example rasberries have a x:x ratio but how much calcium is available & in what area of that rasberry, same for phosphorus.
The given ratio you have as a whole is totally incorrect in relation to what is eaten by a glider & what part of that is absorbed.

From reading I have seen that the P is more concentrated in a rasberry's seeds & is unavailable. That amount is approximately 50% of the overall P of the berry. The available calcium is higher(can't remember all the numbers off the top of my head).

So my point is when you are adding up the ratios as you see them they will NOT be correct unless you are going to research EVERY food item & figure out as closely as possible what the REAL ratio is. IMO making the study innefective, because is is partially based on incorrect data from the start."


This takes NO other unknown or incorrect data into account & I am sure there are others involved that would also negatively impact results.

I think there is MUCH more that needs to be researched and taken in to account BEFORE have gliders put under & owners out money.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
No I do not think our vets know everything, I was simply stating that most of us don't just feed, see if the glider is still breathing & just assume that all is amazing.

I never said or even suggested that.. I said thru blood work and xrays right?

We go find good knowledgable vets and have them checked routinely to catch problems & if I didn't trust my vet when she tells me my joeys are healthy then how could I realistically send one to a new home?

Again, do you trust your vets opinion for the most part when they tell you your glider is well or ill?

Yes I trust my vet but he like ANY good vet should say.."AS FAR AS WE KNOW"
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 06:48 PM

geez o flip Jen.. you dont think this has been done with food already!!??!! There are thousands of food studies, nutritional studies THOUSANDS... etc... We already know the absorable rate, parts that have xx and located where.. etc oranges.. we already know that the bulk of C and vit is in the peel.. This is common knowledge.

What is the incorrect data you are referring to???

We already have guidelines laid out for what we feed from 1million scientist and nutritionist. Are you saying we need to again dissect the banana??

sorry but this is the last time I'm going to cross posts.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:00 PM

I don't have access to that GLIDER ratio list. BLG if you have one could you please share it with me.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:08 PM

Does this really have to be so difficult? Kris, please send me exactly what you are wanting tested, I think I have found a way to get the bloodwork done. Maybe. I"ll be glad to send it to anyone that is interested in it, along with my diet and nail trimming schedule.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:15 PM

Quote:
I"ll be glad to send it to anyone that is interested in it, along with my diet and nail trimming schedule.



Yes maam I would like it as well, you know how I am ALWAYS on you about those nails...I want to make sure you have gotten on the right track!! roflmao
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: queenduck
Does this really have to be so difficult?


If you want to progress? yes. I think it does. Maybe these questions will make people think. My point from the start is you can not add 2+2 get 5 and then build on that. IF the numbers are WRONG from the start they will ALWAYS be wrong until someone corrects them.
I think that for years we as a community have based our calculation on WHOLE numbers supplied by the USDA. So yes I am saying that depending on what part of any given food and the amount of available mineral in ONLY that part of the food our gliders eat we need to FIRST look at our numbers. That is the easiest and least invasive point at which we can start. After we get those correct and at least figure out our true ratios then let us start looking at knocking out gliders TWICE in a 30 day period for blood work.

Will your analysis of bloodwork be accurate if you are basing your calculations on wrong numbers to start?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
Originally Posted By: queenduck
Does this really have to be so difficult?


If you want to progress? yes. I think it does. Maybe these questions will make people think. My point from the start is you can not add 2+2 get 5 and then build on that. IF the numbers are WRONG from the start they will ALWAYS be wrong until someone corrects them.
I think that for years we as a community have based our calculation on WHOLE numbers supplied by the USDA. So yes I am saying that depending on what part of any given food and the amount of available mineral in ONLY that part of the food our gliders eat we need to FIRST look at our numbers. That is the easiest and least invasive point at which we can start. After we get those correct and at least figure out our true ratios then let us start looking at knocking out gliders TWICE in a 30 day period for blood work.

Will your analysis of bloodwork be accurate if you are basing your calculations on wrong numbers to start?


OK, I dont think I am understanding what you are saying Jen.. so let me ask..

Are you saying the USDA chemical analysis of food is wrong?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:50 PM

Quote:
I don't have access to that GLIDER ratio list. BLG if you have one could you please share it with me.


of course we dont have this Jen.. NO ONE does.. Why do you think we want a grant for a true diet study?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
I"ll be glad to send it to anyone that is interested in it, along with my diet and nail trimming schedule.



Yes maam I would like it as well, you know how I am ALWAYS on you about those nails...I want to make sure you have gotten on the right track!! roflmao


roflmao OMG that is the funniest thing I've read all day!! roflmao
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:54 PM

Quote:
Why do you think we want a grant for a true diet study?


I thought this was NOT a diet study???

I am sooo confused....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:54 PM

and I'm not sure why you keep saying.."knocking your gliders out"... My vet does NOT even use a sedative on my gliders.. but when a vet does need to they are NOT knocked out.. they are given a very very light sedative..most do not even fall asleep.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:55 PM

Peggy,
This community study is NOT a diet study... however when we receive a grant a full diet study will be done.. but NOT on diets..
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 07:56 PM

Ummm...mine are put under....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:03 PM

Sorry, maybe you should ask Tim for an alternative method.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:09 PM

I dont want a different way as to me, it would be too stressful on the glider, not to mention, I dont want my babies to feel it happening, and bloodwork hurts (talking of my own experiences).

Kris, I know you have given numbers before, but you stated you were going to pick up the paperwork, could you please scan that and post it for us? I would like to be able to show it to Tristan tomorrow when I go in to see him. If you dont mind that is.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:20 PM

Sorry I have not picked it up. Spencer was sick, threw my back out.etc etc etc.. darn life got in the way.

Honestly, i think you should try a sedative.. going under anesthesia is much, much to hard on the system. My gliders dont even flinch when my vet draws blood.. but then again.. having my blood drawn doesnt hurt me.. my cats and dogs never have issues either.. I guess I would rather 1 minute of a pinch then chemicals running thru their little bodies.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:23 PM

My appt with Tim tomorrow is at 10 am, would you mind calling them and asking them to fax a copy over to my store first thing in the morning? Just to add it in with the rest of what he has and to note on there it is from a different diet plan? The fax number is 361-643-6495

Hope Spencer is doing better. You and Alicia both need to watch those back issues! Back pain is never any fun. frown
Posted By: Cora

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:23 PM

yep Dr. Reese puts my gliders "under" for bloodwork as well!
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:30 PM

[quote=BabyLoveGlidersOK, I dont think I am understanding what you are saying Jen.. so let me ask..

Are you saying the USDA chemical analysis of food is wrong? [/quote]

For a glider ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT IN MY MIND IT IS.

BLG humor me for a bit please. Can you give me the ratios for my gliders dinner.
Tonight I will feed oranges, boiled collards and HPW. Can you give me the Ca:P ratio for their evening meal?
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:34 PM

Dr. Chucle's method is also to put the glider under.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:35 PM

OK let me try to understand.. how can a chemical analysis of a banana be different then just that... a chemical analysis of a banana? You are analyzing the banana NOT what eats that banana.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:37 PM

Maybe you guys should ask your vets if you can use a sedative instead of anesthesia? When you guys take in your cats or dogs are they putting them under too?
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:45 PM

No my dog is not put under, but then again, neither is my child. They are larger, and they can handle the stress a bit better and are a bit easier to handle and hold still than a glider is. I dont know about yours Kris, but if you were to try and hold one of my gliders down and then stick a needle in the base of their tail, I dont think it is gonna be too happy. Even with a light sedation, the glider is going to be able to feel it, especially if the vet misses the first time and has to retry.

For me, it is easier on the glider to be put under. That is why it is not recommended to do it more than once a year. It takes Tim less than two minutes to draw blood and it is the least amount of sedation needed. But that is also why it is recommended to do it if you are already having a procedure done and the glider is already under.

It takes longer for xrays, that is why those are done every couple years unless needed sooner.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:46 PM

Humor me & I'll be happy to share with you. Can you give me the ratio I asked for, I will be feeding 1&1/2 teaspoon HPW mix, 1 tablespoon orange(navel is fine), 1 tablespoon boiled collards.

Also you are only looking at & understanding what you SEE on that site, not everything else involved.

Look, I am not trying to be a terrible pain in your side but I really think there are things that once looked at will make people sit back & laugh because they are really simple they just don't seem like it until looked into.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:49 PM

My dog is not difficult to hold still nor are veins the size of a glider's.
My gliders are uncooperative little wigglybutts under the BEST of circumstances.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 08:53 PM

Quote:
You really think our vets know everything there is to know about our gliders?


Just like the vets dont know it all, neither does the USDA.

Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.
Posted By: Marz

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
OK let me try to understand.. how can a chemical analysis of a banana be different then just that... a chemical analysis of a banana? You are analyzing the banana NOT what eats that banana.


Actually a mineral analysis can vary on different foods depending on different variables. Rather than a banana, can I mention honey seeing this is a big part of lots of glider diets.

It has been found that the CA component of honey in the CA/PH ratio can double in some types of honey though the PH ratios usually remain essentially the same. Variables like type of honey, seasonal conditions,type of soil in the harvested region, plant species that the bees harvest, amount of processing the honey receives all contribute to these differences. This can make a difference to the mineral calculations if people making the same diet exactly, use different types of honey.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
[quote]
Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


That is exactly what I am saying, and I am certainly NOT saying that I have figured it all out. It is very interesting and I think it does deserves consideration.

Here is my answer on sgn as to why I feel the USDA numbers are wrong for gliders, not humans.

OK one example is the way the USDA had figured collards for HUMAN consumption. We boil them, get a fork full & eat them. simple and for us there numbers are accurate.

Now research collards & most any leafy green, the majority of P is concentrated in the stalk, stem, & root. The majority of calcium is concentrated in the thinner leaf sections.

My gliders don't eat the whole thing they eat the leafy part, leaving the stems & [censored] as a gift for me to deal with in the morning & thus my crew are taking in more of the calcium than the phosphorus.

Oranges, the P is concentrated more in the seeds(as it is in most fruits with seeds or pitts) than throughout, of course that is non-available. A given, but the calcium is also concentrated in an area that I eat but my gliders leave, that funny thin membrane around each segment. This causes a difference in the Ca:P due the parts that hold the most mineral vs what parts our gliders actually consume.

Green beans another good one, more P is concentrated in the actual beans than the meat of the ?pod? More calcium is in the meat instead of the beans inside. Me & you eat the whole bean & therefore that ratio is correct for us but due to my brats eating the bean & leaving the pod, for them it is inaccurate.

This is why I say we need to research more of what our true ratios for gliders would be for each food because it is not the same as it is for a human.

Hope everyone can follow that.
Posted By: CandyOtte

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 09:36 PM

OK - First I would like to say I think everyone is looking at the calcium and phosphorus issue in entirely the WRONG way.

Everyone refers only to balancing the RATIO.

I would like for everyone to understand it is not just the ratio of calcium to phosphorus but the AMOUNT of calcium and phosphorus that should be evaluated. There is a big difference nutritionally between a food that offer 20 mg Calcium and 10 mg phosphorus and a food that offers 60 mg calcium and 30 mg phosphorus. Both have a 2:1 ratio but item 2 would offer three times the amount of each.

NONE of us as individuals are able to fully evaluate mg for mg the amounts of each that we feed our gliders. We can only do our best to make sure we are offering what we feel is a balanced diet for our gliders.

I for one would like to see the numbers for recommended ranges of calcium and phosphorus - minimum and maximum daily amounts recommended for each glider. Simply bumping up the amount of calcium with supplements may not be the solution to the issue. If your diet is too high in Phosphorus for the amount of calcium and you bump up the calcium - how can we know if we have just created a feeding that is now TOO HIGH in the AMOUNT of both minerals.

We do not have a list of optimal amounts of calcium, phosphorus, protein, fat, sugar or fiber (or any other nutrient) needed by gliders. Until we have actual values that we can compare our glider diet offerings to, we are all making our best guess at what we individually feel is the best diet for our gliders.

Any study done should be a controlled study. It should not be a comparison of any of the recognized diets or any of the variations we use. The study should be a long term (years not months) study of food combinations that provide a set amount (measured in mg not by ratio) of which ever nutrient(s) are being studied and then a comparison should be made based on the health and any blood value or bone density changes.

Separate studies might need to be done for CA:P metabolism, Protein needs, sugar/carbohydrate/fiber etc.

This is NOT something we can do as a community. It would require a large number of gliders (the past study used only 9 gliders) and many variables would need to be taken into account - cage size and out of cage time as they relates to exercise would need to be controlled/equalized as well as exercise and movement also effects bone density.

We need a team of scientists, vets, nutritionists etc. and I doubt any of this will happen during the lifetime of MY gliders so I am going to continue to offer a diet I feel meets their nutritional needs (based on the current recognized diets but modified to be what I feel is best).
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 09:58 PM

okay Candy, we wholeheartedly agree with you when you say
Quote:

NONE of us as individuals are able to fully evaluate mg for mg the amounts of each that we feed our gliders. We can only do our best to make sure we are offering what we feel is a balanced diet for our gliders.

I for one would like to see the numbers for recommended ranges of calcium and phosphorus - minimum and maximum daily amounts recommended for each glider. Simply bumping up the amount of calcium with supplements may not be the solution to the issue. If your diet is too high in Phosphorus for the amount of calcium and you bump up the calcium - how can we know if we have just created a feeding that is now TOO HIGH in the AMOUNT of both minerals.

We do not have a list of optimal amounts of calcium, phosphorus, protein, fat, sugar or fiber (or any other nutrient) needed by gliders. Until we have actual values that we can compare our glider diet offerings to, we are all making our best guess at what we individually feel is the best diet for our gliders.


but I think what everyone is missing here.. and not really missing is a starting point. and right now we don't have one..

Jen, I understand what you are saying and I also agree with you regarding the calcium absorptions.. This is definitely a variable to consider with your diet, not just yours but all of them.. Is there a list for GLIDERS? no then why not? it is because someone has not stepped up and taken a chance at making that an issue, it takes one person to talk to others to talk to others to make any differences. but it has to start with a general, that general study will spawn, many other studies. but there has to be a place to start,

the research that peggy, you and others are speaking of, is the long term studies, the master research, the papers that makes vets major grant money and notoriety.

There IS things the community can do , and there are ways to start to find out what is going on. but it isn't going to be by slamming every effort to make attempts at finding out answers, it is far better to work together to figure out ways to make it work.

example, we can start working with calcium absorption rates, but first before we do that we still need to find out what people feed. and if and how, what they feed affects their
bodys.

so that is done with the little baby steps before. I think it is realistic to say that this community is not READY for a full blown study, when no one can even talk about or discuss doing anything.

I keep hearing the talk about the diet research the diet study that was done..

well their figures were primary based on blood, and urine values.. there was so many variables in that study, but alas, it was done by professionals, it did cost a lot of money, and what has anyone to hold in there hands to show for it?

at the bare minimum the community study that Kris is talking about at the minimum will give many people a baseline, for their own future..

peggy you said it, when tim compares to the last ones.. many many people don't even have the first ones. but....

I went to preschool, before I went to public school, and before that , my family watched and taught me.. not professionals, but they were effective enough

you have to start somewhere. if we don't start putting a foot forward, we are not going to learn anything..
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 10:07 PM

Considering (based on these conversations) no one truly "knows" the Ca:P ratios (just to start) that a glider needs, somehow we need to obtain that information. It does no good at all to feed the "ABC" diet because it is "recommended" and "nutritionally balanced" when we don't know what a gliders true needs are yet. Don't get me wrong, saying "it does no good at all" isn't really what I mean. I know its the best we have at the moment, so that is what most of us do. But are those diets really good enough for our gliders? I'd like to know what their nutritional needs are, and find out if these diets are accurate. If we find the diets are inadequate, then and only then should those diets be examined and modified as needed. If we don't start somewhere, we'll be having this same conversation many times over in the next several years. JMO
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/20/09 10:47 PM

Bourbon, I have been telling the community now for YEARS to have blood work and xrays done for their gliders so they can have a baseline to go off of...

I know several that HAVE done just that.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 12:10 AM

People think of calcium deficits and they usually only associate it with bones. But calcium is needed by every system in the body, including muscles. What calcium that is used by the body is used more by muscles than in bone formation. Wild gliders have unlimited space to move around so their bodies require more calcium to keep their bones strong but also to keep their muscles working properly. With humans, swimming uses more muscles than jogging so a swimmer will have a greater need for calcium. A wild glider uses their muscles so much more than our captive gliders so trying to figure out the needs of captive gliders is so important. We can go "off of" the needs of wild gliders but our gliders really are very different in their needs because their environments are so different.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 12:19 AM

Quote:
There IS things the community can do , and there are ways to start to find out what is going on. but it isn't going to be by slamming every effort to make attempts at finding out answers, it is far better to work together to figure out ways to make it work.


I may be wrong here, but I've not seen where anyone has slammed anything. What I read was valid questions being asked about how this mission could be accomplished.

Quote:
example, we can start working with calcium absorption rates, but first before we do that we still need to find out what people feed. and if and how, what they feed affects their
bodys.


Now I have a question about this. How can we get a true or at least a fairly accurate result on calcium absorption rates without getting down and dirty with the every little aspect of what someone feeds. For example, we just had this raised with Nicole's gliders. She feeds HPW, Peggy feeds HPW and they clearly had different blood results and everyone went to questioning WHY!!! Reasons why are too many to list, different honey, different environment, illness was involved....the list goes on! I really don't see how we can see how diet affects the bodies when there are too many differences.

Quote:
so that is done with the little baby steps before. I think it is realistic to say that this community is not READY for a full blown study, when no one can even talk about or discuss doing anything.

Again, I saw questioning about how one would even start to figure out a baseline for gliders when there is so much involved in finding it.

Quote:
at the bare minimum the community study that Kris is talking about at the minimum will give many people a baseline, for their own future..


I don't know if there could even be a minimum baseline by comparing blood work from gliders in different homes, again too many differences.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 12:31 AM

It is a starting point. If gathering this info will allow information needed to submit a proposal for grants, and those grants provide the funding for more indepth "professional" studies, perhaps the ones that WILL run very long term, years, then this should be done.

Writing and submitting a grant proposal isn't as easy as just writing a letter asking for the money. There has to be SOMETHING there that points to the need for further study.

Well, if BML, Judie's BML, Pricilla's diet, Suncoast's diet, HPW, Ensure diet, Reep's and the random non traditional diets are the ones being fed to the gliders who the blood draws are done on, then that gives a, although generic, baseline to further study. It provides info needed to write the grant proposal.

I feed Reeps. I have for 5 years. My diet is pretty simple the way I feed (exactly as is in the diet directions in the diet link) and I have healthy gliders, healthy joeys. But WHAT IF any damage that might be done won't show up in a glider until he/she has been on the diet for 7 years? What IF in 2 years, all my gliders suddenly start showing signs of calcium deficencies? What IF, this study could alert me to that possibility NOW and that it could be avoided by simply adding some calcium to the mix that I use. Wouldn't it be worth it to know now, not in another 2 years when the damage becomes known?
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Bourbon, I have been telling the community now for YEARS to have blood work and xrays done for their gliders so they can have a baseline to go off of...


I've seen you say this a couple of times in this thread...how often do you (or your vet?) recommend having blood work and xrays done?


Originally Posted By: Dancing
Wild gliders have unlimited space to move around so their bodies require more calcium to keep their bones strong but also to keep their muscles working properly.


I COMPLETELY agree with this. Our diets are based off of what wild gliders eat. Now I don't know if what is being proposed here is the best way to go about finding out what our CAPTIVE gliders need, but I think it's safe to say that our gliders do not require the same amount of any dietary substance as wild gliders. That's definitely something that needs to be looked into.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 01:25 AM

Quote:
I've seen you say this a couple of times in this thread...how often do you (or your vet?) recommend having blood work and xrays done?


Deanna, it is suggested to have ALL your gliders done the first time, and then after that every year on blood work UNLESS there is an illness and they need it again, or every other year. On xrays Tim says every three years or so would be sufficient.Unless of course, there is a reason you have to have them done again. Keep in mind I do have mine done a bit more often then most, but I am also trying to keep an eye on how well the gliders are doing health wise and for continuing reports that my vet likes to keep. thumb
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 02:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
It is a starting point. If gathering this info will allow information needed to submit a proposal for grants, and those grants provide the funding for more indepth "professional" studies, perhaps the ones that WILL run very long term, years, then this should be done.

Writing and submitting a grant proposal isn't as easy as just writing a letter asking for the money. There has to be SOMETHING there that points to the need for further study.

Well, if BML, Judie's BML, Pricilla's diet, Suncoast's diet, HPW, Ensure diet, Reep's and the random non traditional diets are the ones being fed to the gliders who the blood draws are done on, then that gives a, although generic, baseline to further study. It provides info needed to write the grant proposal.

I feed Reeps. I have for 5 years. My diet is pretty simple the way I feed (exactly as is in the diet directions in the diet link) and I have healthy gliders, healthy joeys. But WHAT IF any damage that might be done won't show up in a glider until he/she has been on the diet for 7 years? What IF in 2 years, all my gliders suddenly start showing signs of calcium deficencies? What IF, this study could alert me to that possibility NOW and that it could be avoided by simply adding some calcium to the mix that I use. Wouldn't it be worth it to know now, not in another 2 years when the damage becomes known?


I fully agree with you! You have made a very good point. Long term studies need to be conducted.

We need to start somewhere, on a much smaller scale than professionals do that last several years. All of these variables that are being discussed may very well show differences in the levels in gliders ~ therefore showing a NEED for additional research! The additional research will be a much more formal, and professional study. This blood work is just a blind study baseline.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 02:09 AM

Quote:
Writing and submitting a grant proposal isn't as easy as just writing a letter asking for the money. There has to be SOMETHING there that points to the need for further study.

I agree, I worked in the non profit field for 10 years and ALL our funding came from grant monies and it is not easy aquiring a grant.


Quote:
I feed Reeps. I have for 5 years. My diet is pretty simple the way I feed (exactly as is in the diet directions in the diet link) and I have healthy gliders, healthy joeys. But WHAT IF any damage that might be done won't show up in a glider until he/she has been on the diet for 7 years? What IF in 2 years, all my gliders suddenly start showing signs of calcium deficencies? What IF, this study could alert me to that possibility NOW and that it could be avoided by simply adding some calcium to the mix that I use. Wouldn't it be worth it to know now, not in another 2 years when the damage becomes known?


You could always do blood panels now on your gliders and have your vet advise you if everything is as it should be. Just a thought.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 02:26 AM

Quote:
You could always do blood panels now on your gliders and have your vet advise you if everything is as it should be. Just a thought.


And that is the whole point now isn't it? But all the diets, not just Reep's should be examined and if it is being done, why not provide those results for the TGI to include on their grant proposal?

There has to be a starting point and why not this one? As I understand things, they are getting vets lined up. They are working on more "details" on how the "study" will be done IF/WHEN grants are approved. None of us can afford the type of study everyone wants to see take place, not even "us" as a community. For that, grants are going to be needed.

This might not be ideal and it might not provide any real answers, may only cause more questions but if not started here, then where?

I guess I don't understand the resistance to this "informal" study to get the ball rolling.
Posted By: Marz

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer

Our diets are based off of what wild gliders eat.


Actually the US diets are based off captive glider diets from Healesville sanctuary and other zoo facility sources here not wild glider diets. Whilst parts of these diets try to emulate some of what wild gliders eat, the sanctuary for instance has researched diet nutritional requirements with their own captive gliders in mind. Each animal is microchipped, weighed and health checked regularly which includes full bloodwork/xrays done under anaesthetic.

Wildlife carers who are rehabbing wild gliders here in Australia, do not feed these diets at all as they are not suitable for gliders going back into the wild. Some will feed a slurry of lorikeet nectar or honey/water(to emulate nectar) along with blossoms/branches and insects but that's it. For instance, yoghurt is not fed here to wild gliders (or captive bred who are fed native flora) as it upsets their natural gut florae developed so they can digest native plants.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 02:56 AM

Marz, how large are the enclosures for gliders in Australian sanctuaries and zoo facilities?

While those gliders may be technically captive, they still have a LOT more room to move around than our 3x3x6 cages like mine (and some aren't even that large). I still feel that gliders in sanctuary in Australia will have different nutritional needs than our gliders here in the US.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 02:58 AM

Oh, and thank you for answering my question, Peggy. I have another but it's a bit off topic, so I'm sending you a PM smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
[quote=Srlb]
Quote:

Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


That is exactly what I am saying, and I am certainly NOT saying that I have figured it all out. It is very interesting and I think it does deserves consideration.

Here is my answer on sgn as to why I feel the USDA numbers are wrong for gliders, not humans.

OK one example is the way the USDA had figured collards for HUMAN consumption. We boil them, get a fork full & eat them. simple and for us there numbers are accurate.

I dont think you have an understanding on what the USDA does.. it analyzes food.. who eats it doesnt matter.. it ONLY DOES THE FOOD! the entire food and prepared 100 different ways. You are saying that the USDA only analyzes boiled collard because that is the way most people eat them? NO that is not true!

Now research collards & most any leafy green, the majority of P is concentrated in the stalk, stem, & root. The majority of calcium is concentrated in the thinner leaf sections.

My gliders don't eat the whole thing they eat the leafy part, leaving the stems & [censored] as a gift for me to deal with in the morning & thus my crew are taking in more of the calcium than the phosphorus.

Oranges, the P is concentrated more in the seeds(as it is in most fruits with seeds or pitts) than throughout, of course that is non-available. A given, but the calcium is also concentrated in an area that I eat but my gliders leave, that funny thin membrane around each segment. This causes a difference in the Ca:P due the parts that hold the most mineral vs what parts our gliders actually consume.

Green beans another good one, more P is concentrated in the actual beans than the meat of the ?pod? More calcium is in the meat instead of the beans inside. Me & you eat the whole bean & therefore that ratio is correct for us but due to my brats eating the bean & leaving the pod, for them it is inaccurate.

This is why I say we need to research more of what our true ratios for gliders would be for each food because it is not the same as it is for a human.

Hope everyone can follow that.


Jen you need a study ONLY for YOUR gliders then, my gliders eat everything.. the husk on greenbeans, the stalk on collards.. everything!Sorry I totally disagree with what you are saying.

Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:14 AM

T, I believe it was simply the way it was presented, at least for me it was,
IF you are simply looking for blood results on gliders then simple ask for blood work
IF you want to compare input (CA:P) then figure(CORRECTLY) the numbers going in vs the numbers comingout on bloodwork
IF you are looking for more be SPECIFIC about what you want to look for & stii make sure the data you are going in with is CORRECT

As I told B on the phone numbers do not lie. If you have 1:1 going in & 1:1 coming out that is great BUT you MUST know what is REALLY going in to begin with.

I have stated that yes I believe our calculations have been wrong for ever so long. Is that my fault or your fault? NO
We were using what we knew & not until people started to question Peggy's blood work did I even question our calculations.

I started researching the differences in bio available minerals vs whole mineral content & next thing I knew I literally had my internet bogged down because I had about 75 pages open.

Started to see that WOW Ca & P are actually not just evenly distributed across any given fruit or vegi and BAM, I was interested, what does this mean in terms of my gliders? Well it means I gotta lot of work to do to really figure out the ratios of what I feed. HOLY COW

Am I glad that BLG and I have gone back & forth all day. YES! It is exciting, it is new ground, new info that could help us with gliders. But it is also LOTS of work to try to figure out JUST the simple ratios of any given food for our gliders.
Will it help gliders? yes I think so. Is it really needed to figure out all those REAL ratios? That's going to depend on who you ask, I have been a number freak from the start(I do taxes for people as a HOBBY, because I love numbers. I memorize all types of numbers, credit cards, bank accounts, hubby ssn & TDL, phone numbers... even the stupid ones)
so yes I am always going to think the numbers matter greatly.

I am in no way deluding my self that they are all that matters because I know for a fact that there are TONS more variables to consider that are so far above my head I can't even see them when I look up. There is the subject of glider absorbsion, which in itself holds a ton af variables. There is the effect of one mineral of vitamin on another, there is the digestive system of a glider, and yes even something so simple as whether or not my glider runs on a wheel as much as yours.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:19 AM

I guess I need to do a study on my own as well then because there are MANY things my gliders only pick at and do not eat all of, the green beans for one, they always leave the outside and eat the inside.

So if you are going to get ALL the numbers for this study that would be a good reason why it will be just as important on what a glider does NOT eat as well as what it DOES eat.

How many times have we all said, gliders are like humans and each is different.

So Kris are you stating then if someones glider does not eat everything like yours does, they need to have their own private study done?

How many others here have gliders that will pick apart their food and not eat everything??
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:20 AM

Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
Originally Posted By: Trigger
[quote=Srlb]
Quote:

Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


That is exactly what I am saying, and I am certainly NOT saying that I have figured it all out. It is very interesting and I think it does deserves consideration.

Here is my answer on sgn as to why I feel the USDA numbers are wrong for gliders, not humans.

OK one example is the way the USDA had figured collards for HUMAN consumption. We boil them, get a fork full & eat them. simple and for us there numbers are accurate.

I dont think you have an understanding on what the USDA does.. it analyzes food.. who eats it doesnt matter.. it ONLY DOES THE FOOD! the entire food and prepared 100 different ways. You are saying that the USDA only analyzes boiled collard because that is the way most people eat them? NO that is not true!
No there are options on the site as to how YOUR collards are prepared.
Now research collards & most any leafy green, the majority of P is concentrated in the stalk, stem, & root. The majority of calcium is concentrated in the thinner leaf sections.

My gliders don't eat the whole thing they eat the leafy part, leaving the stems & [censored] as a gift for me to deal with in the morning & thus my crew are taking in more of the calcium than the phosphorus.

Oranges, the P is concentrated more in the seeds(as it is in most fruits with seeds or pitts) than throughout, of course that is non-available. A given, but the calcium is also concentrated in an area that I eat but my gliders leave, that funny thin membrane around each segment. This causes a difference in the Ca:P due the parts that hold the most mineral vs what parts our gliders actually consume.

Green beans another good one, more P is concentrated in the actual beans than the meat of the ?pod? More calcium is in the meat instead of the beans inside. Me & you eat the whole bean & therefore that ratio is correct for us but due to my brats eating the bean & leaving the pod, for them it is inaccurate.

This is why I say we need to research more of what our true ratios for gliders would be for each food because it is not the same as it is for a human.

Hope everyone can follow that.


Jen you need a study ONLY for YOUR gliders then, my gliders eat everything.. the husk on greenbeans, the stalk on collards.. everything!Sorry I totally disagree with what you are saying.Then if your gliders eat EVERY bit of what you give them , !
1 Lucky you & 2 yes every person with a glider that eats differently would need to figure ratios differently because your numbers & mine couldn't be the same & I thank you for that response because that in fact is a VERY big part of my point.
You see you would get my "1 tbls collards and figure it according to your WHOLE number supplied by the USDA & then turn around and apply that to my gliders as well when in fact it would not even nearly fit the way my gliders eat.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:29 AM

Good lord you guys I was being facetious!! If you honestly think that searching that haystack for a needle is EVER going to happen.. you are wrong! You will never believe in any diet study ever. You will always find fault with everything! There is NOT that much of a difference in the numbers of a glider not eating the vain of a collard..
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:38 AM

Well I am sorry but in this discussion I deal with the fact, & only the facts. I am not looking to decifer facetious typing. Sorry for me this is a serious & not witty discussion.

Are you sure of what the differences are because in some of the very FEW foods I have researched that I feed regularly there can be a difference of OVER 50%. To you maybe that is of none or little consequense but to me that can have a major impact the difference in what I AM feeding vs what I THINK I am feeding.

If this is a joke to you by all means remove yourself & I will understand completely but I do feel there are people on this board that can & will learn from my theory.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:46 AM

To me, this is overwhelming! LOL

Scientist haven't figured out EXACTLY what humans need to lead a healthy long life!

My grandmother on my fathers' side lived to be 100 years old, she ate a lot of potatoes, cornbread, meats, butter, lard, gravy, you name it and she ate it from the garden and farm. She was a TINY woman all of her life too!

Her son, my dad died at 73, never sick a day of his life until he got cancer, went down and passed away in 53 days from diagnosis to death. My dad didn't drink, he didn't smoke and ate a HEALTHY diet, took minerals and vitamins, etc,.

Me, I was born with problems and can't have ONE day without pain somewhere. I have diabetes and other medical problems that my parents and grandparents did NOT have.

I understand we all want to "make" our gliders live a very long healthy life by knowing everything we can about them but I think (IMO) that all of this blood work, ex-rays, vet visits and OUR own stress will do not do much more than stress out our gliders which in turn can make them ill.

Over the years, I have put myself through serious stress over diet for my gliders. I have purchased so many things for them to eat, snack on, etc, that I have driven myself nuts over it at times. In reality, they love what they are used to and aren't into trying out all of the things I've tried to give them from their "native" country. Their native country is here where they were born and raised, the U.S, not Indonesia, New Guinnea nor Australia. HERE!

I have decided to stop the insanity around here by simply accepting that my gliders are not "exotic" anymore. They are little redneck country hicks that glide from the states of Kentucky, Texas, Tennessee and Oklahoma, they will continue to eat the food they have always eaten (unless I decide to change their approved diet) I will continue to offer them different varieties since "I" would not want to eat the exact same things everyday myself.

We have a saying around here, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I think I will stick with this.

Every single human and animal is different, we can put the same foods into the same people and get off the chart results on blood work, same with our animals. More people and animals die from injury and accidents than anything else. Stress is a MAJOR killer. Putting gliders through so much stress isn't something I am willing to do with mine.

Sorry for the rant.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:47 AM

OBTW BLG my numbers are in my profile & if you would like to discuss this further call me.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:53 AM

Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
To me, this is overwhelming! LOL

Scientist haven't figured out EXACTLY what humans need to lead a healthy long life!

My grandmother on my fathers' side lived to be 100 years old, she ate a lot of potatoes, cornbread, meats, butter, lard, gravy, you name it and she ate it from the garden and farm. She was a TINY woman all of her life too!

Her son, my dad died at 73, never sick a day of his life until he got cancer, went down and passed away in 53 days from diagnosis to death. My dad didn't drink, he didn't smoke and ate a HEALTHY diet, took minerals and vitamins, etc,.

Me, I was born with problems and can't have ONE day without pain somewhere. I have diabetes and other medical problems that my parents and grandparents did NOT have.

I understand we all want to "make" our gliders live a very long healthy life by knowing everything we can about them but I think (IMO) that all of this blood work, ex-rays, vet visits and OUR own stress will do not do much more than stress out our gliders which in turn can make them ill.

Over the years, I have put myself through serious stress over diet for my gliders. I have purchased so many things for them to eat, snack on, etc, that I have driven myself nuts over it at times. In reality, they love what they are used to and aren't into trying out all of the things I've tried to give them from their "native" country. Their native country is here where they were born and raised, the U.S, not Indonesia, New Guinnea nor Australia. HERE!

I have decided to stop the insanity around here by simply accepting that my gliders are not "exotic" anymore. They are little redneck country hicks that glide from the states of Kentucky, Texas, Tennessee and Oklahoma, they will continue to eat the food they have always eaten (unless I decide to change their approved diet) I will continue to offer them different varieties since "I" would not want to eat the exact same things everyday myself.

We have a saying around here, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I think I will stick with this.

Every single human and animal is different, we can put the same foods into the same people and get off the chart results on blood work, same with our animals. More people and animals die from injury and accidents than anything else. Stress is a MAJOR killer. Putting gliders through so much stress isn't something I am willing to do with mine.

Sorry for the rant.


Your rant is duely noted & APPRECIATED. I agree my gliders will NOT indergo undue stress for experiments unless I am 100% assured that it will lead to a better & more fruitful life for them.
I feel we are behind on SIMPLE book knowledge that can be obtained before subjecting gliders to any stress.
I do not expect ALL to jump on board with this but all I ask is a little research on your computer to get a few numbers straight BEFORE you start sticking needles in your gliders looking for anwers that will not amount to anything UNTIL you get your numbers right to start.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 03:54 AM

Wanted to throw this in. I am allergic to animals (NOT gliders thank God!) One of my kids are also, two are not. One has an egg allergy, I do not nor the other 2. NONE of my kids are diabetic, I am. My oldest daughter has hip issues, my son has diverticulosis, my youngest daughter has a serious condition involving PRE cancer. They have none of MY problems, I have NONE of theirs. Yet, they all three came from the same body, same place raised, ate the same foods, lived in the same environment and STILL live in the same state.

Gliders like any living creature are all different.

My grandma lived on butter and lard, I LOVE butter but it hates me and if I eat potatoes (small example), I get sleepy and fat. (lol) She ate them her whole life and was a tiny 103 pounds.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 04:15 AM

Thanks Jen. smile

Notice that on vitamins, minerals AND many foods, that the USDA and FDA have a RECOMMENDED daily allowance (along with other warnings for certain conditions and to ask your doctor, yada yada) Why is everything we put into our bodies recommended? Simple. Because noone has it figured out EXACTLY yet. We've been around for thousands of years and still don't know what to eat or not to eat. How many times do we get the "okay" from the USDA or FDA to eat or take something, they come out later and tell us NOT to eat it or take it because they found it is actually harmful or could kill us! How many DIETS for humans have been found to make us ill or worse? Nutra sweet is a great example. It was developed (or whatever) for diabetics and obese people...years later we find out it was the cause of many brain disorders. This was supposed to be an all natural sweetener. Turned out, it is downright dangerous to many people! Before that was Sacharin (sp?) we all know now that was and is BAD. Now it's Splenda but it causes headaches among many other health problems and this stuff was to help make us healthy???? Yeah, I don't have much faith in the USDA or FDA to tell me what to eat or not and what meds to take to keep me healthy! and...that was only ONE example.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 04:31 AM

I have to agree the USDA has steered us wrong a number of times(glad I wasn't running around on ALLI before they stated you may poop your self and stink all day) LOL

My questions on the ratios are actually much more simple that that. I simply want people to google the available and/or absorbable calcium or phosphorus of each thing before they take the USDA numbers for GOSPEL.

Really look at it ............ I am asking you to change nothing, to spend money to have nothing tested.
JUST look at the numbers for each food item & realize there IS a difference in what the USDA states & what YOUR glider consumes.
I don't want your studies, nor the credit for your work to figure out what your glider eats.
I ask for NO recognition, I only ask that you spend a few hours researching what your gliders really take in compared to the numbers that I presume are wrong.

I am litterally asking for only a few hours research on the AVAILABLE calcium or phosphorus your gliders REALLY take in.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 04:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
Well I am sorry but in this discussion I deal with the fact, & only the facts. I am not looking to decifer facetious typing. Sorry for me this is a serious & not witty discussion.

Are you sure of what the differences are because in some of the very FEW foods I have researched that I feed regularly there can be a difference of OVER 50%. To you maybe that is of none or little consequense but to me that can have a major impact the difference in what I AM feeding vs what I THINK I am feeding.

If this is a joke to you by all means remove yourself & I will understand completely but I do feel there are people on this board that can & will learn from my theory.


Jen, I forget sometimes that not everyone knows me.. and you are correct you should not have to try to decipher when I'm being facetious. Of course I do not think this is a joke.. would I being doing this if I did? of course not.. no one would!

If you are seeing 50% difference in what you are feeding and what is being eaten.. please do us all a favor and start putting together a chart for us to use... It will of course need to have ranges.. as my gliders do eat all their collards, green beans etc.. Do you think you can do that?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
I have to agree the USDA has steered us wrong a number of times(glad I wasn't running around on ALLI before they stated you may poop your self and stink all day) LOL

My questions on the ratios are actually much more simple that that. I simply want people to google the available and/or absorbable calcium or phosphorus of each thing before they take the USDA numbers for GOSPEL.

Really look at it ............ I am asking you to change nothing, to spend money to have nothing tested.
JUST look at the numbers for each food item & realize there IS a difference in what the USDA states & what YOUR glider consumes.
I don't want your studies, nor the credit for your work to figure out what your glider eats.
I ask for NO recognition, I only ask that you spend a few hours researching what your gliders really take in compared to the numbers that I presume are wrong.

I am litterally asking for only a few hours research on the AVAILABLE calcium or phosphorus your gliders REALLY take in.


Many of us that have been involved with diets have done that vary thing.. we know that when it's written that spinach is 14:1 (dont quote) that they are not receiving the 14cal... There are however ranges, guild lines etc... we simply can not go back to the beginning of time and have the USDA give us numbers of what is adsorbed.. because Jen it will be different with everyones bodies. They all do nit function the same nor process they same way. We need to have baselines and ranges.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 04:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
OBTW BLG my numbers are in my profile & if you would like to discuss this further call me.


I think that is a GREAT idea... and I'll call ya tomorrow if thats ok!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 05:02 AM

People keep referring to the USDA. United States Department of Agriculture? Are you meaning the RDA tables for human Recommended Daily Allowances? This is pretty crude stuff for humans and not very exact - no built in consideration for various special needs - age, sex, co-morbid conditions, diet differences, health status, etc. They are moving to DRI (Dietary Reference Intake) with significant debate. I would say they don't have THE answer for humans yet despite literally billions of blood measurements. And this isn't so much noting the right diet or perfect diet or ratios of ingredients, but noting levels of nutrients that are thought to be enough if provided.

We used to have Calcium:phosphorus issues with Preemies years ago. We found 4:1 worked. There have been many studies to analyze human breast milk and copy the amounts of minerals, proteins, fats, vitamins and carbohydrates, but formula is still different. But the end points being measured weren't blood levels of calcium or phosphorus. Suppressing PTH (Parathyroid hormone), bone growth and adequate mineralization, rickets, tetany (babies version of HLP) and many other parameters were the endpoint measures.
There is also a major difference between the need to be exact when pouring IV fluids in as the only source of nourishment, and using the gut with oral feedings. This is more extreme than captive versus wild animals. Errors with IV only feedings leads to problems, but the gut fed individulas have a wide range of acceptable dietary levels because the body can selectively absorb and excrete to balance what is needed.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 05:22 AM

Along with the daily recommended dosages, nothing is said about the food that was eaten while taking the supplements. If a person is eating "healthy", why the need for supplements in the first place? I was told they are not needed when a person is eating right and is basically healthy...yet we are trying to supplement our gliders...without knowing what they REALLY need in the first place.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 05:28 AM

Quote:
Are you sure of what the differences are because in some of the very FEW foods I have researched that I feed regularly there can be a difference of OVER 50%.


and 50% of what? calcium mg? can you explain further? You mentioned earlier the vain of a collard... there is likely very little like and just guessing here...00000000004mg in a 1/8th of an inch of a collard green vain.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 05:54 AM

Following this thread I haven't been able to ascertain what are the goals expected through glider blood drawing. I've seen comments about comparing diets, but others wrote that it is not a diet study. Some indicated normal values are being sought, although others noted they exist in literature. The link to the article Kris posted titled "GliderPaper" was interesting, but the ranges listed were very wide for many metabolites. This thread seemed to begin with interest in calcium levels.

The question was asked "why the resistance?" IMHO twofold. 1) Glider risk and stress from invasive sticking with or without anasthesia, and
2) No hope of finding anything useful
(Not to mention expense)

Calcium metabolism is very complicated. A good mental model is the house thermastat. If you set the dial on 73 degrees and the house cools to 72, the furnace comes on. At 74 it goes off. You might like 73, and your neighbor 76. Open a window or build a fire and the system will stop heating or work overtime to keep at 73. Calcium levels are that way regardless of day-to-day diet.

Someone above asked an interesting question. The general idea was: "What would happen if you feed a diet one day with no calcium, and another day a diet with 10 times the calcium?" Absolutely nothing. The body will maintain calcium levels at its set point. On a diet-deficient day, the bone stores will be used to keep blood levels up. On a diet high in calcium, less will be absorbed and more excreted to maintain levels. Much like your house thermostat. A horrible diet over a long time will eventually show symptoms. My best guess is that most of the diets being used are not truely that rotten. Most likey many of them provide enough of what is needed to stay out of trouble. In relative terms, our pizza-eating and McDonald's gobbling society is far worse off.

Also interesting that the Sugar Glider normals listed in Merck were remarkable similar to human levels. Also of note, the local Veterinarians bring their blood samples to our Hospital and run them on the same analyzers we use for humans.

Although blood sugar can zoom up and down with diet changes, that doesn't happen with very many other metabolites. Certainly not calcium. The PTH and Calcitonin won't let it vary that much.

I'm still looking for a good reason to do this bloodwork study. Even one. Then there is the issue that will arise as to what one hopes to do with this "information" to change anything and know that you are making the situation better.

Somebody earlier noted that the first glider to wake got the corn, and the last got the carrots. That was our experience. It is a pointless game for me to count out ratios and have the furbutts do that. I quit worrying long ago and trust mother nature.
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Too much calcium? - 09/21/09 06:32 AM

Continued Part 2
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