GliderCENTRAL

Pelleted food??

Posted By: Srlb

Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 05:20 PM

There are many different opinions on pelleted foods out there. For a long time we have believed this to be the cause for lumpy jaw.

Over the years, we have learned this belief was false.

Although I,personally, do not recommend a pellet food alone as a diet, I was reading Suncoasts current news letter and it states that there are not any vet or nutritionist with extensive exotic experience who did not think feeding high quality pellet foods daily as the main ingredient of a varied, balanced diet - was the best way to approach exotic animal nutrition that they have spoken with.

It even shows a *letter* from a so-called vet (reason I say so called is because the name of the Veterinarian was undisclosed, therefore making it just hearsay unless the source is stated)about the whole diet issue.

I am just wondering, how many of you out there do indeed leave a pellet in your cages? If you do, which pellet do you choose to leave in there? Have you spoken with your vet about pellets? If so, would you share what they had to say?

I,myself, have sent Tristan an email asking what he feels about a pellet diet and asked him to take a look at the Suncoast article.

I leave a kibble in my cages for my gliders, as I do believe that it helps to clean the teeth, so I have nothing against pellet foods, IF they are healthy enough to leave in a cage.

Just thought I would see how the glider community has evolved on this issue of the years, as I know I used to be one to scream dont feed anything hard to your gliders because it would cause lumpy jaw.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 05:25 PM

After this years SGGA, I came home with some of the little samples of Happy Glider/Pet Pro. I figured no sense is just tossing it away so I divided it up among my cages. Not many and it was in addition to their normal diet.

I heard so much happy chirping and crunch crunch crunch...

Out of 16 cages, ONE cage had 3 pieces left on the plate the next morning and ALL their other food was gone too. So they didn't eat the pellets instead of their normal food, they ate it in addition to it.

I'm going to be ordering some to use just as treats but won't be leaving any in the cage full time since my gliders don't get up during the day to snack anyway.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 06:09 PM

Mine love the pelleted food. WE keep a small dish with pellets in the cage throughout the day and they snack on it when they want. I do this because they were used to it from the previous breeder and seeing how much they like it i couldnt take it away. (WE still give them the priscilla diet every night)

They even except them as hand food when we run out of mealies. Ill have to check the brand of pellets as i forget what they are but they seem to be a good addition to the cage for my gliders

Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 07:26 PM

Maybe its because it has been ingrained into my brain that pellets are bad that I don't feed them. Although I used to feed a pellet as the staple along with fresh fruits, veggies, and mealies.

My reason for not feeding pellets is that it seemed that they tried to eat them, but couldn't/wouldn't eat the entire pellet. They seemed to almost shred them and leave the majority of it in the dish to be thrown away. Did they only eat what they could, or just get out of them what nutrition they needed? dunno

My other thought is that this consistency of a food (hard) isn't normal in nature, so why feed it in captivity?

I've always been told that mealworms are fed partially for protein (depending on your diet) and partially for dental hygiene. If this is true, then I don't see the need for pellets as a means of teeth cleaning.

This does bring up questions though. Why was it thought to cause lumpy jaw in the first place, and how was this disproved? (Sorry if this is starting a new topic.)
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 07:48 PM

Quote:
This does bring up questions though. Why was it thought to cause lumpy jaw in the first place, and how was this disproved? (Sorry if this is starting a new topic.)


Because there was such a misunderstanding of just what lumpy jaw really is.

But yes, hard foods (even branches to chew on) can cause abrasions in the mouth which can leave openings for bacteria to enter and cause abcesses. This is NOT lumpy jaw. But many of the gliders who have had teeth issues and facial abcesses are NOT fed any types of hard foods so it kinda dispelled the theory that it was the hard foods causing the problems.

However, I will say that the gliders that have come to me on a strictly pelleted diet, even those fed fruits and vegies with it, STINK much worse than other gliders on different diets. Even those on Happy Glider/Pet Pro. The stink issue for me stops me from switching to an all pellet diet.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 08:09 PM

Quote:
I've always been told that mealworms are fed partially for protein (depending on your diet) and partially for dental hygiene. If this is true, then I don't see the need for pellets as a means of teeth cleaning.


The way it was explained to me Shelly is:

Do you use a toothbrush?
Do you use dental floss?

Do you use both of them? Why?

Well, of course. But would you use dental floss alone?

Although it would help to keep your teeth clean, it would not do it by itself. The exoskeleton of a mealie is really not enough to *clean* a tooth, but could *floss* a tooth, where as something of substance, be it a pellet food a branch your gliders chew on etc, will help to clean the teeth more effectively.

Make sense?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 08:13 PM

so pelleted food is ok to have as a addivtive but not suggested for full on diet???
Posted By: saturngirl

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 08:18 PM

I'm glad you brought this up Peggy. My glider vet said that gliders need kibble at least a few days a week. He said it helps to clean their teeth. So, I've been giving them some Pet Pro pellet food as treats. I hide them around the cage and they love to forage for them. I always hear happy chirps and clicks.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 08:32 PM

I don't offer pellets, but I do leave monkey biscuits in their cage at all times. Some gliders chew on them more than others, But I notice that especially the females with joeys eat the biscuits frequently in the morning.
Posted By: DirtyPaws

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 08:52 PM

I do believe a 'crunchy snack' should be given to help clean teeth. I do not believe a pellet food would be a proper staple diet.

I just wish I could find a kibble that ALL of my gliders like. I guess once you have more than just a couple of gliders that your odds of this happening are much lower.

I swear some morning I'm just gonna hand them all a piece of Chicken Soup for dogs!
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 09:19 PM

Thanks Dancing and Peggy for the explanations!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 09:27 PM

My little girl came to me on pellets. Brand? I have no idea. They were green, had bits of dried fruits in it too, and looked suspiciously like guinea pig food. She ate very little and was not very active. I took the pellets away and she ate regular fruits and veggies much better, along with her proteins. She also became more active and smelled MUCH less. My mom even noticed - mind you, the cage was kept in my bedroom at the time which my mom never goes into. "Well since you can take cover off the cage and I don't smell her anymore, you must be doing something right" were her exact words.

Maybe there is a good pellet out there for gliders, I cannot believe that it is ok for any of them to be fed as the diet alone.
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/15/10 10:03 PM

we also give pet-pro happy glider pellets in addition to their main diet. My vet agrees with this and has also stated it was good for oral hygiene when we discussed my diet prior to me becoming USDA licensed.

I either place my pellets in a separate dish or in their foraging toys.

I do want to add it is probably best practice to only leave a little in the cage, like tara stated she does above, or as a foraging treat; basically what they can eat in a 24 hour period for obvious reasons :
- gliders could poo/pee in/on it otherwise if large amounts or amounts that are not eaten for that night or day are left in the cage for extended periods of time ( i can only imagine how icky it could become if left in their cage for a long time)
- any moisture could cause growth of extra unwanted bacteria and/or a mold..... and i'd imagine could be a risk of aflotoxin poisoning possibly
- leaving just enough for a 24 hr period helps you monitor better what your gliders are consuming and how much. you do not want the pellets to take place of any part of the main approved diet ( i.e. gliders eating the pellets only and leaving the majority of say the veggies and fruits and HPW for that night's feeding would not be a good thing)



smile
Posted By: Thumper

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 12:14 AM

I have one glider that gets up almost every day and another cage that someone will get up once in a while. I give a small dish of exotic nutrition pellets only during the day to those two cages. They do shred it as shelly said but they also eat some. They get hpw at night and aren't eating less due to pellets.
Posted By: josefine

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 01:15 AM

i have been giving, all along, pellet stuff in a bowl, all the time. i never believed the lumpy jaw thing to be caused by pellets, & I'M the stupid one on here!!!!!!!
what i have always fed was the glider complete from exotic nutrition, & the happy pet pet pro stuff, both the supreme one, & the fruity one, & when Lisa came out w/her pellets, i ordered those, also. i did have to cut them up,tho b/c they wouldn't eat them @ the present size, I also have to cut the dick van pattens ultimate cat food. this is something i also buy, b/c of the protein value to the food, & several on SESG were trying it.
my gliders rarely eat anything @ all,the pellets do last along time in their cage,too, so i know they are not just filling up on the pellets.
the ONLY food they are completely eating is candy's blended diet stuff. i feed that all on its own. whenever i mixed it w/the meals, nothing got ate.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 02:58 AM

I recently started offering my gliders high-quality cat/dog food since I started a new job and sometimes get home late, so it gives them something to munch on.

I give them Solid Gold Katz-N-Flocken(lamb) cat food. I also recently added some Before Grain Chicken dog food to the mix as well because I got a free bag of it.

Just to mix it up, I'll sometimes add some dehydrated meat(chicken or lamb) or fruit to the mix as well.

Some of my gliders LOVE it, others will only nibble it a little bit.

Personally, I won't feed any of the glider pellets because I don't like the ingredients, which is why I chose to feed the cat/dog food instead.

I would never recommend feeding pellets as a staple for a diet, only as a snack.
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
After this years SGGA, I came home with some of the little samples of Happy Glider/Pet Pro... I divided it up among my cages... Out of 16 cages, ONE cage had 3 pieces left on the plate the next morning and ALL their other food was gone too. So they didn't eat the pellets instead of their normal food, they ate it in addition to it...

Teresa, ummm, how in the world did you get enough to feed 16 cages?? Was I missing something? roflmao

Ok, which one of the packs was the actual "happy glider pet pro"? Was it in a baggie, or a cup?
I remember getting stuff in a baggies, and in cups, and I just doled it out as snacks until it was gone. But really, I have no idea what I was giving tounge
The only one I still have left looks kinda like dead dried bugs, and I havn't really figured out what is is yet. And the gliders were not that thrilled about it either dunno

Do you (or anyone else) have a picture of the "happy glider pet pro" pellets?

Interesting thread. Not sure how I feel about the whole subject.
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By: srlb
I leave a kibble in my cages for my gliders, as I do believe that it helps to clean the teeth, so I have nothing against pellet foods, IF they are healthy enough to leave in a cage.


Peggy, which kibble do you put in your cages?
I'm wondering about the ingredients, that are 'healthy enough' to leave in a cage.

I am now looking at some of the info, and petpro's website sounds interesting in their process, but the ingredients do not give me a "warm fuzzy feeling" dunno
Posted By: DirtyPaws

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 03:51 AM

Can't find the right petpro website. dunno
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 04:49 AM

http://www.pet-pro.com/

sheila has a good pic of the pellets on her site. wink
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 07:06 AM

I went to that site and couldnt find any pics. How long have they been in business making pet foods?

I was interested in trying a pellet I read about here I thought was called happy glider, thought that was the right one but it wasnt.

any other sites that offer pellets you have used?
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 12:53 PM

Sari, I put some Natural Balance (original chicken)Dog Food in my cages.

Jill, PetPro (Jim) has been around for MANY years. I remember back in the beginning (of me getting my first pair) when my gliders would not eat their BML, I always kept some of his pellets in the cage. Until that is, I read how pellets could cause lumpy jaw and I immediately wigged out and took it all out.

I have nothing against the PetPro pellets, but as I said, I would not offer that as the main course in a diet plan. (Just my personal opinion).

Edited to add, I wanted to say if any of you have any questions about how long they have been in business, what ingredients they use, and why they use it, etc., you should really call and talk with Jim. He is a VERY kind man who is willing to answer any questions. Very nice to deal with.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 03:04 PM

Happy glider is ALWAYS available to my gliders. I began leaving a crunchy kibble in after Dr. Walsh noticed Snuki's gums being a bit red and discussing the use of a kibble to assist with teeth cleaning.

My crew LOVE the Happy Glider fruity flavor, so that's the one they get.

This is in addition to their normal full diet and as stated the main purpose is simply cleaning teeth.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 03:06 PM

Adding to say for me the kibble is seen as any other treat, not really seen as part of their dinner/diet.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135


Personally, I won't feed any of the glider pellets because I don't like the ingredients, which is why I chose to feed the cat/dog food instead.



Just what I was going to add Nicole. I've never understood the benefits of what's in the dry kibble and never saw the benefits of offering it on the side as a snack. I've heard of many offering cat/dog food as a treat and have considered it, if there was no harm.

I've seen way too many gliders who are fed a strictly pellet diet and it's not what I want for my gliders. People are misunderstanding the snack benefit of it and turning it into a meal.

Why does it have to be kibble to help with teeth? Wouldn't the other hard things they chew on give benefit as well? All mind chew on toys, tree branches, yogies are not rock hard but they are harder than their food, opening nut shells & I'm sure there are other things they chew on.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 04:10 PM

Nancy, nobody is saying it HAS to be a dry kibble to help clean your gliders teeth. Just saying that the old school of learning that mealies were for cleaning teeth and pellets caused lumpy jaw are now being taking out of the textbooks per say.

If your gliders are chewing on branches, or toys or other hard items, I am sure it is just as beneficial as chewing on a hard kibble of some sort.

I would also like to point out a previous statement I had made, as I dont want folks to get the wrong impression.

I stated:
Quote:
It even shows a *letter* from a so-called vet (reason I say so called is because the name of the veterinarians was undisclosed, therefore making it just hearsay unless the source is stated)about the whole diet issue.


and although I stand behind this, I do want folks out there to know, this does not mean I do not believe Lisa. It is just that unless a source is divulged, it is nothing more than hearsay.

With that being said, I also understand and respect the fact that Lisa does not want to share that information with folks do to the way the Veterinarians tend to receive an overwhelming slew of phone calls/emails when something like this is announced.

So for those who felt I was trying to discredit this information, rest assure I was not. As a matter of fact, I know it to be a true statement as I have viewed the letter from this Veterinarian myself.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 04:20 PM

I see - it was sounding like kibble is the only other hard source to offer to help with cleaning. So I was wondering, were all the other hard things they chew on, not enough or not any help at all.

Always a learning process with these little ones mlove
Posted By: josefine

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 04:31 PM

dog food should not be fed to cats,it is unhealthy,so i don't give 'treats' of dog food to my gliders.this messes up a cats digestion, so i would think it would do the same for a glider.
but,as far as i know(& have learned)that high quality cat food isn't harmful for them,& some of it is good for them,too. IMO
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: jacknsally


People are misunderstanding the snack benefit of it and turning it into a meal.


Why does it have to be kibble to help with teeth?


I would have to venture to guess people are not misunderstanding or mixing up the meaning of DIET vs TREAT, but wouldn't be shocked at all if people were getting LAZY and turning the dry treat into an easier option than woeking to make their gliders' diet.

I don't think it has to be a dry kibble, just that many use several sources for the same purpose. Looks like you use many different items to assist with dental care and I do as well, just one of mine is a dry kibble.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 04:48 PM

My gliders have been extremely picky lately, so I'm giving them lots of options--pellets being one of them. If they are hungry after they eat their veggies, fruits, and HPW/BML, I'd rather have another option for them to munch on. Sometimes they eat'em, sometimes they don't. I think they are good "fillers," because sometimes I feel like all of this ice-cube-food smile might not be filling enough.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 05:19 PM

I have been feeding mine dog kibble for quite some time as a hard food in their cages with no ill effects.

I have heard that the ash in cat food could be an issue for the digestion in cats, but once again, we have no solid evidence of this, so it is all just hearsay.

Josefine, if you dont mind me asking, where have you learned that cat food isnt harmful and good for them? Is it through blood work done on your gliders, or someone elses blood work?
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 05:30 PM

Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Why does it have to be kibble to help with teeth? Wouldn't the other hard things they chew on give benefit as well? All mind chew on toys, tree branches, yogies are not rock hard but they are harder than their food, opening nut shells & I'm sure there are other things they chew on.


I don't give mine kibble for their teeth(that's just a plus). I give it to them as a snack to munch on til I get home from work to feed them.

For their teeth, I give mine branches to chew on. I have a Corkscrew Willow tree in my front yard, so I just chop off branches from there to give them. wink I live out in the country and never spray any pesticides or anything, so I just have to wash and sanitize them to get rid of any buggies and they're good to go!
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 05:49 PM

We had some problems with gliders being food aggressive. So we were recommended to try Happy Glider. The same night we put it in their cages everyone STOPPED bickering! It was amazing! We loved it so much we now vend it. It's on our website if anyone is interested. smile

We do not recommend it as a main food source, but we offer it in their cages along with the Blended diet and fruit and veggies. They eat what they want of the dry food and still finish their main diet. It's nice to have in there in case someone doesn't get to eat as much as they wanted, or if we are late feeding- they have something to snack on and don't take their frustrations out on each other.
Posted By: DirtyPaws

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 07:01 PM

thanks for the link Kristy!

(I've still got to catch up on the posts after that though)
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 07:18 PM

So, does anyone know what the kibble is that Poket pets sells? Do they divulge the ingredients? Just curious...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 07:21 PM

This is where it gets really confusing for new owners or soon to be owners. We are told from early on in on our research that pellets are a no no. However come to find out that alot of owners actually do offer pellets after all. Where do these pellets factor in with the list of approved diets. I know some just feed it as a treat but some leave pellets out for their suggies to munch on during the day. Does this not disrupt ratios etc

I was not planning on giving mine pellets because it has been ingrained into my head that they are bad. I thought I had everything sorted out in my head in terms of diets but now I'm all confused again.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 07:50 PM

I give mine BML and Happy Glider because thats what a man told me to do where I bought my first glider. Happy Glider as a type of treat.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Peeka02
This is where it gets really confusing for new owners or soon to be owners. We are told from early on in on our research that pellets are a no no. However come to find out that alot of owners actually do offer pellets after all. Where do these pellets factor in with the list of approved diets. I know some just feed it as a treat but some leave pellets out for their suggies to munch on during the day. Does this not disrupt ratios etc

I was not planning on giving mine pellets because it has been ingrained into my head that they are bad. I thought I had everything sorted out in my head in terms of diets but now I'm all confused again.


Very good point. But keep in mind, that we are learning new things everyday about sugar gliders. What was thought to be good/bad 5 years ago, may be proven the opposite today. Learning never stops! smile

I'm not saying I agree with the pellets though - still thinking that one through. But as far as the diets, I'm a firm believer that they should be fed as written. Giving the pellet as a treat wouldn't be so bad, but I think that leaving it in the cage would/could throw the ratios off some.
Posted By: jimbo

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 10:24 PM

Peeka02, the SunCoast diet was designed around a pellet fed to exotic omnivores in many zoos around the world, so this is an example of a diet with a high quality animal protein-based pellet integrated:

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/glidervet-45.htm#menu

You'll notice that other than the pellets, it looks much like many of the homemade diets. Lisa has been using this diet for 11 years.

I think pellets in general having a bad name goes back to the "cat food" days, when many fed cat food kibble to gliders. This was found to be an unacceptable primary food for gliders by the exotic vet community and that's when the homemade diets started with BML, pellets were declared "bad", and people using them "uninformed".

But since then, omnivore and then glider-specific pellets have been developed, along with lots of homemade diets, and also many companies offering pellets with dubious nutritional value as far as gliders go. So you get some feeding zoo-grade pellets as a main part of the nutritional routine, some feeding these or other kinds of pellets as snacks with the homemade diets, and still others who continue to believe "all pellets are bad".

There is a list comparing the ingredients of different pellet foods here:

http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/Pellet%20Food%20Analysis%20-%20Quick%20View.pdf

Personally, when people mention pellets on this board, instead of everybody crucifying them, I wish the first reaction would instead be to ask "what brand"? Then the conversation can go in a more productive direction.

Anyway, if the majority of vets with exotic animal experience are suggesting a high quality pellet should be incorporated into the diet, it must not be an "uninformed" idea. You can read more about why they think this way in our latest newsletter:

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/glidervet-102.htm#dayfood2

We have asked for feedback from the vet community on this. So far, we have only received emails in support of high quality pellets as part of the diet, but if we hear any differently, we will report on it in the next newsletter.

PS We don't think people who feed homemade diets only are uninformed, they're making a personal choice, provided they know of all the options available. There's lots of reasons why people may prefer this approach.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 10:49 PM

Oooo Thank you that was an interesting read.
I don't want to derail this thread too much as it was originally about pellet food and lumpy jaw I see now that all pellet foods are not created equal.

I think I was getting confused as some people are feeding the homemade diets along with pellets in the day time. I had thought it was a cut and dry homemade diets OR pellet food kind of deal.
Posted By: jimbo

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/16/10 11:23 PM

Sure, and here's one reason you see mixing.

If you could leave the homemade food out all day without it spoiling, that would be one thing. But in many cases the mixes spoil relatively quickly at room temp so you need something in the cage that will not spoil, and that's one reason you see people who primarily feed a BML or similar also leave out pellets during the day.

But, not all gliders feed during the day. Gliders most likely to feed during the day are young gliders, breeding females, gliders who are not feeling well, and mature gliders.

Some people claim their gliders *never* come out during the day, and that can be true, we see maybe 10%. The question is, if there is no food during the day, how do you know they do not come out *because* they know there's no food?

That's why Lisa encourages people to try putting out some food during the day. If you have high quality cat or dog kibble, you can try that for a few days just to see what happens, but we don't suggest it as part of the diet.

But again, some people have no problem with that approach, especially if they have high confidence in the quality of the dog or cat food. We're more in the "cat food is for cats, dog food is for dogs" camp, but it's not going to hurt them for a couple days to see how they behave.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 12:13 AM

OK, out on the preverbial limb I go.

Newbs and oldtymers alike, diet is pretty much COMMON SENSE. We don't have a resident animal nutrition expert who has decided to devote their lifes money and work to figuring the perfect glider diet.

Some feed a common "tried and true" diet some feed chicken nuggets and happy meals diet. I personally have known both and BOTH HAD WHAT APPEAR to be happy, healthy monkeys.

I do NOT feed a "recognized" diet. I feed what I wish and buy. I do look at protien, fruits, vegis and pay attention to phos/cal ratios.

I also feed treats, some just to please my babies, some to serve a purpose be it cleaning teeth or enrichment. I also choose what these are and limit them as I see fit.

The gliders in my home are MINE, I love them ABOVE anyone else's care or concern & I alone will make choices regarding every aspect of their care.

Use your head, research what you can on their needs, both nutritionally and concerning enrichment and make the choices that work best for your gliders and you...IN THAT ORDER
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 12:31 AM

And before someone asks me NO my monkeys don't get happy meals... until they learn circus tricks, get a JOB, learn to drive and can go buy their own JUNK food.
I believe in healthy eating for the humans and the monkeys, so as long as I buy the grub in this house it is lean, low fat, healthy stuff for all.
Posted By: scraptilldawn

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 01:57 AM

I was quite pleased to see the Pellet Food Analysis found here http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/Pellet%20Food%20Analysis%20-%20Quick%20View.pdf and wondered this..... of all the pellet foods listed wouldn't you want to be feeding one that has the best ingredients? Other then the Insect Eater Diet by Exotic Nutrition, they all seem to have wheat, soy or some type of grains as their main ingredients. Chicken Meat, Blood Meal, whole eggs, apple, pear sound like great ingredients to me (I've never fed the Insect Eater before) and something I might be willing to use.
Posted By: jimbo

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 02:50 AM

scraptilldawn, both the pellet foods Suncoast sells have animal protein as the main ingredient (Chicken or Pork), so Insect Eater is not the only one, but we agree that the nutritional profile of Insect Eater is what we like to see.

Insect Eater does have to be replaced every 24 hours (as does the moist pork-based product we sell) which is why we developed Wholesome Balance - people just find it easier to deal with / less waste. But "dry" does mean a different kind of composition to avoid refrigeration / spoiling and some folks may prefer the approach taken with Insect Eater.

We have no problem with that at all.

Like Trigger said, use your head and "make the choices that work best for your gliders and you...IN THAT ORDER".

Perfect.
Posted By: sugarlope

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 02:58 AM

I have always left a pellet diet in my cages. Pellets were part of their regular diet for the first couple of years that I had them. Since then, I leave pellets in their cage in case I am late with feeding or they start eating more and I don't notice right away (I have hoarders and the pellets have helped stave it off).
Posted By: jimbo

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 03:19 AM

Yes, food hoarding is a complex situation but if you have animals that seem to be afraid of accessing the fresh food or prevented in some way from enjoying all the fresh food they would like the pellets help ensure even nutritional value delivery. Pecking orders are natural and rather than trying to "enforce" some kind of feeding ritual, alternative food sources help provide equal access to all the animals.

Speaking of natural, does anyone know of any warm-blooded animals that prefer to eat only once a day in their natural habitat if they have access to food throughout the day?
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 03:39 AM

Originally Posted By: jimbo
Speaking of natural, does anyone know of any warm-blooded animals that prefer to eat only once a day in their natural habitat if they have access to food throughout the day?


Strictly nocturnal animals?

Bats, hamsters, owls etc....They do not graze all day, even if it were offered because they are asleep during the day. smile

But they have access all night. Which is generally something my suggies do anyway. They don't eat it all at one time, instead they graze throughout the night- just like their wild counterparts do. Or similar at least. Many mornings I get up to see them still finishing off dinner around 6 a.m.

We have quite a few gliders. NONE of them get up during the day.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 06:56 AM

I have seen videos of wild gliders taken during the day on the internet. And 2 friends of mine just came back from Australia and they said you do see them in the trees during the day, must mostly at night.

Of my 4 gliders, 2 wont get up for anything during the day, the other 2 are quite happy to get up to play, snack, cuddle.

perhaps it is very individual?

As for the pellet discussion here (loving it by the way!)

I do use pellets, 2 types, alternating them.

Also use high quality catfood as treat.

My question is this and please dont anyone take this the wrong way: with every diet out there, whether there are pellets included or not, there is always some supplementation.

when using a supplement there is a risk to OVER or UNDER supplement.

I would like to see a pellet diet that could be fed without any supplements. That is and of itself a "perfect" nutritional diet. With that being said, I would still feed fruits and veggies with such a pellet, and that would be a way to "treat" and "enrich".
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 02:02 PM

hmmmm i dont think the pellet i use is on this list. does have a 2:1 Ca to P ratio an similar % of fat ect to the insect eater. Smells good nothing in it that is bad for them i checked as best i could. ill post what I have to since its in a wide array of pet stores atround here
Posted By: CharmedSuggies

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 04:49 PM



I was looking at this comparison chart & it's not complete. The Ca:Ph ratio's on the first page is not complete & the second page does not list everything including Ca:Ph.

It's hard to compare the different pellets (as many as there are) w/o full info on them all to compare.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 10:01 PM

Out of curiosity, to my knowledge (which I admit is limited), there has not been any research conducted on the daily nutritional needs of a sugar glider.

So, if there is no such research, how do we know that these pellets (and the recognized diets too, but that's another topic) are truly "good" for them? Not too much protein, vitamins, etc.

And, if there HAS been research done, I would love for someone to share that with me. wink

I'm not trying to discourage the use of pellets, just trying to understand it more. First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.

Great topic!
Posted By: CharmedSuggies

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.


I agree completely. If there has been research and tests done, I would also like to know about it. when I fist started on GC I was tol NO pellets unless it was part of the diet like with the pet glider diet.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: CharmedSuggies
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.


I agree completely. If there has been research and tests done, I would also like to know about it. when I fist started on GC I was tol NO pellets unless it was part of the diet like with the pet glider diet.


Yup. I don't find the diets common sense. I would like to think I have a little of it and diets were the most complicated thing for me to understand when first doing my research, that's why there is so much debate. This has been one of my favorite threads to date! it has been extremely informative. thumb
Posted By: DirtyPaws

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 10:55 PM

Okay, checked out PetPro's website and read the ingredients for the different Happy Glider formulas. I didn't read much past 'animal plasma' and 'corn gluten meal.'

What were the other dry glider kibble to choose from? I know I'd only be giving mine as a snack but would like them to have a crunchy bite at least every other morning to help with their teeth. I'm just not crazy about corn anything ~ especially gluten. (Although, I do give frozen corn as a snack only 3-4 times a year.)

At this point I think I'm on board with those giving high quality dog food as snacks. Holistic formulas, with low grains and no fillers or by-products.
Posted By: CharmedSuggies

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/17/10 11:56 PM

Here are some of the ingredients.

Exotic Nutrition Complete
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.

Happy Glider Chicken Protein
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.

Happy Glider Supreme
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.

Glider Chow
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 12:29 AM

Quote:
there has not been any research conducted on the daily nutritional needs of a sugar glider.


To my knowledge there has yet to be a research done.

I don't know of anyone that has collected gliders and dissected their bellies and intestines to see what exactly they eat, how much of it, checked their blood to see what the *wild life* gliders counts are etc...

And if this has been done, how can we be assured that it was done on healthy gliders in the wild?

Quote:
So, if there is no such research, how do we know that these pellets (and the recognized diets too, but that's another topic) are truly "good" for them? Not too much protein, vitamins, etc.


The more reading I do on gliders, the more it seems as though they eat more plant protein year round than bug/animal protein.

I guess the only way to know with pellets would be the same way we know with any other diet we feed.

Lets be real, we dont know the answers except for the research and studies and information that we have collected over the years, be it from blood panels, surgeries or a necropsy, histopath etc.

Quote:
First they weren't good, now we see a lot of people offering them for various reasons.


They werent good just like a lot of other things we believed as not being good...such as soy...yet look at how the gliders on HPW strive today. (well that is some pretty poor grammar for the evening!! LOL)

Do I think there is a pellet out there today that is good enough to be a *main* part of a diet? Nope.But then again, I havent really looked into them that much and could I be proven wrong and change my mind tomorrow or the next day? Yep.

I think we are all realizing that we need to really look into things before just taking someones words for it.

Just like the sticky on Soy. Often I will get an pm or email asking me if I wrote that article on how dangerous Soy is for Gliders, than why do I encourage folks to feed a diet that has Soy as the main ingredient? I have to go through the whole thing on how *I* did not write that post and how it came about to where it looks like I did (housekeeping in my Mod days) but honestly, a lot of those stickies are out of date and need to be replaced with current information.

Every day we all learn something new. It amazes me to see just how many people DO leave pellets in their cages for their gliders, just in case, they wake up. It makes me happier to see that folks now a days are willing to say YES I do and not have to worry about getting jumped on, as they would have say a couple years ago (and probably by me!!).

We just need to continue having these kind of discussions to find out what does and does not work for our gliders.

What I would like to find is someone who feeds a pellet diet and have them have a blood panel drawn...wonder what that would say??
Posted By: jimbo

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 01:06 AM

There was a limited study done, in fact as a direct result of efforts here at GC. Rather than rehash it here (there is a lot of disagreement on results / validity, surprise!), see this topic:

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/990743/Re_More_Diet_Questions_SunCoas

A link to the actual study is about 4 posts down; a quick summary of the 3 page discussion would be something like "this community is not going to accept the results of a study unless it is conducted across many different habitats, for many generations, comparing all diets".

So, let's accept that the kind of study people would like to see as proof is unrealistic until a major pet food manufacturer enters the sugar glider food market.

Then, what is the next level of "trust" people will accept?

Here are the best options I know of:

There are vets who specialize in exotic animals who have experience with and access to research on a wide variety of exotic animals, go to conferences, understand the latest best practices. Certainly, they understand what KIND of animal a sugar glider is, the general physiological profile of a sugar glider, and what likely nutritional scenarios are from field studies and different professional keepers.

There are professionals who have spent their entire careers in animal nutrition, who work at zoos or similar habitats and are responsible for the health of the animals.

There are manufacturers with decades of experience formulating and packaging glider and other exotic animal foods, which are used by the professionals in the zoos and similar habitats above, whose reputations and business success are affected by the feeding outcomes and opinions of the zoo professionals.

So, I agree, it would be great to have glider-specific research that proves things one way or another. But at the same time I think as a general idea, saying "we don't have any hard proof of anything so we should ignore the opinions of the above professionals until we do" is an unusual way to view the diet issue.

To me, this does not pass the "common sense" test, and instead one should look for the "next best thing". There are 3 choices above, and in my opinion, any one or more of them is probably better than waiting for the definitive study that may not happen in our lifetimes (I'm 52, adjust for your own expectations wink.

Then of course you have breeders who have been using different kinds of diets, some created by professionals, some not, for various lengths of time, some not very long, some up to over a decade. And lots of claims surrounding them, especially "we don't know so until we do it's OK".

I agree completely diet is a personal choice, and people should not be made to feel bad about choosing an approach that is within the generally accepted guidelines and fits their lifestyle.

But at the same time to reject out of hand all pellets as "bad", especially when all 3 groups above agree using a high quality, animal-specific pellet is a best practice when feeding exotics, seems to break the community's own desire to be "scientific" about diet.
Posted By: josefine

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 01:11 AM

i don't feed mine pellets as a meal, i feed them candy's blended, w/fruits & veggies. i just put small amts of kibble for them to munch on, if they get up, & if they even want some to eat.
after reading the nutritional value to Natural Value ultra cat food, & listening to some of the owners in Florida(SESG) feeding this(when the furbabies weren't playing throw ball w/it),along w/a 'green jungle juice' someone devised w/a green machine health drink, i went ahead & started adding that to their meals,along w/the food, not in place of it.
my girls were eating only enough to maintain their weight, nothing more, & i was throwing so much out. i got desperate, & started adding more to the meals. but then i was also throwing away what i was giving them. they barely ate for 6 months & i was ready to be put away somewhere, b/c whatever i tried would not work.
now, they still don't eat much of their meals each nite, but they are enjoying candy's blended diet(as long as i feed it all alone, & not have something else mixed in w/it.)
glider gossip also has many good, nutritious meals on their site, but my girls still wouldn't eat any of it. frown frown
pellets could be harmful if they are mainly junk, or also they could get lodged in anal glands,too. but, in the wild, they are 'eating' bark & the like out there to,i think anyway.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 01:29 AM

Quote:
But at the same time to reject out of hand all pellets as "bad", especially when all 3 groups above agree using a high quality, animal-specific pellet is a best practice when feeding exotics, seems to break the community's own desire to be "scientific" about diet.


Jimbo, although I agree with some of what you stated, I *think* the mentality that most glider owners have went by for so many years, is although yes they ARE *exotics* most exotic animals are NOT sap suckers like Sugar Gliders are. Most eat more of a carnivorous food then Sugar Gliders do.

I know when I first came on board as an owner it was constantly thrown at me how gliders are Sap Suckers...they dont swallow all their food, they just get the *juices* out and spit the rest out...

So now that folks are saying, hey, my glider does eat pelleted foods and they do ok, it is hard for some to grasp onto, since it goes against all we have been taught over the years.

Just like several folks dont know that gliders actually have 40 teeth in their mouths... yea, plenty of them to chew stuff with, even if its a pellet...

When it would be brought up that gliders chewed bark on trees to get to the sap, the come back would be, yes but the bark on those trees are soft bark...again, it may be soft bark, but the gliders actually had to make a HOLE in a tree to get to the sap, not just peel away the top layer of bark...

Its nice to see that we ARE learning, we are evolving, we are realizing that our gliders arent as fragile as we once thought.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: jimbo
There are vets who specialize in exotic animals who have experience with and access to research on a wide variety of exotic animals, go to conferences, understand the latest best practices. Certainly, they understand what KIND of animal a sugar glider is, the general physiological profile of a sugar glider, and what likely nutritional scenarios are from field studies and different professional keepers.

There are professionals who have spent their entire careers in animal nutrition, who work at zoos or similar habitats and are responsible for the health of the animals.

There are manufacturers with decades of experience formulating and packaging glider and other exotic animal foods, which are used by the professionals in the zoos and similar habitats above, whose reputations and business success are affected by the feeding outcomes and opinions of the zoo professionals.


Thank you for that reply! Seems like that's about the best "scientific research" we have to go on. Like you, I'd love to see a glider specific study done, but its not very realistic at this point.

Please don't take it that I am being negative regarding the use of pellets. I just like to see some information to substantiate the claims being made. More than the "he/she said" logic. As been said already, it is difficult to accept change, especially with such a "sensitive" subject.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 09:00 AM

we will probably see some major research done when gliders become legal in all states and a large pet food manufacturer realizes there may be an opportunity to make money.

While I would love to see a "complete" glider diet out there, I am not sure how much I would trust one of the "larger" pet food manufacturers. Look at all the disagreements people have over cat and dog food, kibble vs raw diets, popular cheap kibble vs "holistic" expensive kibble, etc. There is plenty of evidence that shows high grain content catfoods CAN be harmful, but as long as SOME cats thrive on it, and people will buy it, companies will make it, even though there are health risks to it. Not to mention those horrible recalls you hear about.

there has been research done on what gliders live off of in the wild. So the big diet question is: how do we copy that same nutrition in the home?

BUT copy it in a healthy way? to further illustrate: hummingbirds live off of nectar and tiny insects. someone decides nectar is equivalent to sugar water, and since they like red, lets put in red food coloring. Lately I have read that "they" are finding the red coloring is harmful to hummingbirds and recommend NOT using it. Yet you still see the manufacturers making it. AND is nectar REALLY the same as sugar water? while the hummingbird will eat it, and live on it, is it best???

just my 2 cents worth at 5am
Posted By: Marz

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
I have seen videos of wild gliders taken during the day on the internet. And 2 friends of mine just came back from Australia and they said you do see them in the trees during the day, must mostly at night.


Hi JillMarie

The videos you see (BBC for example) are quite often contrived for the camera. In the case of the gliders our during the day gliding and scampering up trees...this is not normal behaviour. Most likely the cameras were present and footage was shot during the release of captured gliders or alternatively the nesting area was disturbed to get the animals out into the open to get action shots. Sometimes simulated natural habitat in a facility is used too. One memorable footage of lyrebirds with Sir David Attenborough walking through the bush was actually filmed in the lyrebird enclosure of one of our local sanctuaries!!

I have lived in Australia all my life including within some of the highly populated wild glider territories in the bush and never ever seen gliders out during the day unless they were injured, ill or dead. I have seen them in the wild at night (definitely hard to locate as they are small and quick) but for the average person here would never see a wild glider in the bush at night...now if you are talking about brush tail or ringtail possums, they are everywhere in the suburban areas and they are commonly seen by all and sundry!!

I would be curious to know where exactly your friends saw gliders. Some touristy areas up North have feeding stations for the tourists to see various critters come and feed at night...gliders known to be included.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/18/10 05:48 PM

HI Marz!
It is possible they saw another critter and thought it was a sugar glider. They have seen mine up close, but it is possible, I guess, they saw a critter jumping around and miss-identified it. will get specifics from them next time I see them.
what a bummer about the videos. here I am thinking I am watching a glider doing its thing naturally and it was all staged. heavy sigh...LOL
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/19/10 05:45 AM

Jill Hi,
The Hummingbird diet requires sugar Smithsonian

The main nectar solutes are the sugars sucrose,glucose & fructose & their total concentration ranges from
7%-70% w/w

Jill your friends may have visited Northern Queensland -

Chambers Wildlife Rainforest Lodge

Marz -
have David Attenborough's 'Life on Earth' nice read, enjoyed it, I understand Wild Kingdom was accused of similar follies.

Will stick with Australian info here, see you are in Melbourne area & I have no idea where you have resided but, a couple contacts I have on the Top End, NT (Kakadu & Arnhem Land) have stated that it is not that unusual to see wild sugar glider's in the daylight. although in your area as you stated it would be unusual unless in captivity.

I have a couple video links on Facebook that show a sugar glider & the another I treasure - Leadbeater's possum but I am not sure where they were filmed - also not sure I would doubt either, without a few more facts

Posting this article on another forum here & thought you may be interested in a peek -
Thermal biology, torpor and behaviour in sugar gliders:
a laboratory-Weld comparison
Fritz Geiser ˇ Joanne C. Holloway ˇ Gerhard Körtner


Our study shows that activity in captive gliders in an outdoor aviary is restricted to the night and largely unaVected by weather, whereas free-ranging gliders omit foraging on cold/wet nights and may also forage in the afternoon.

Captive gliders also remained in their nest boxes during the day, whereas free-ranging gliders foraged occasionally
Posted By: josefine

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/19/10 05:46 AM

peggy, you are wonderful!!! smile :)_
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/19/10 05:58 AM

There is a parallel discussion to this one going on at Glider Gossip.

Pellet discussion on GG.

There are some people who are relying on old information saying "All pellets are always bad."

I think it is amazing how quickly our knowledge and understanding of gliders is evolving. And - at least on the forums - the changes seem to sweep through, so that all our community's gliders can benefit.

Diet has been the most controversial, but has also seen the most changes. In spite of the fact that there are precious few "formal scientific studies" we ARE learning. We ARE developing better and better glider husbandry - including diets. So much has changed - and is still changing.

When you step back and look, it is actually very exciting. It can be frustrating - but ... I'm not aware of any other "community driven" research the way this community is doing for gliders.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/19/10 07:59 AM

thanks for the links, especially about the hummingbirds. was glad to see they added the "no red dye"

while understand that "sugar" is needed, my comparison was "while they can live on it, is it BEST?" as sugar and water is NOT the same as nectar. nectar has other properties that plain sugar and water dont have. remember that honey is actually concentrated nectar with some "bee spit" added roflmao LOL
Posted By: Marz

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/19/10 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Pockets

Marz -
have David Attenborough's 'Life on Earth' nice read, enjoyed it, I understand Wild Kingdom was accused of similar follies.

Will stick with Australian info here, see you are in Melbourne area & I have no idea where you have resided but, a couple contacts I have on the Top End, NT (Kakadu & Arnhem Land) have stated that it is not that unusual to see wild sugar glider's in the daylight. although in your area as you stated it would be unusual unless in captivity.


With apologies to the original poster and moderators for adding to this slightly Off Topic discussion,I just had to respond to this for the last time smile

I am currently in Melbourne, Australia and even though we do have wild sugar gliders in our neighbourhood, when I mentioned highly populated glider territory I was referring to areas with amazing forests of tall,tall gums where I lived for many years. My family owned land abutting the National Parks where my mother would release rehabbed possums and gliders.

It is definitely considered unusual to see wild gliders out in the daytime (with the exception of dusk/dawn where they are getting up or going to bed ) unless there is a problem. The fact these animals are nocturnal and prone to predation is enough to be concerned about if they are indeed doing so. Maybe loss of habitat/ lack of food is forcing them out.... Also considering torpor that you mentioned, you would find it less of a problem up north where the average min temperature up in Kakadu is 66.6 and down here is 37.2.



As in regards to videos on the net showing gliders out and about during the daylight hours (and some at night), it is quite common knowledge and acceptable in the industry how documentaries are edited & staged for best result.It can be about perception. Whilst many docos are years in the making, others are not so and combine real footage with footage that has been shot inside nocturnal houses or large outdoor enclosures in sanctuaries to get up close and personal to "wild" life. They also take advantage of wildlife being released into the wild to some good action footage. How do I know? My husband has been a professional television cameraman for over 30 years and he is very familiar with how the industry operates for best results.
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/19/10 06:24 PM

Yes - Foods of the God's

Excellent publication & if you visit google can read quite a bit of the following -

Nectaries and Nectar 2007
Susan W. Nicolson , Massimo Nepi , Ettore Pacini

Nectar Chemistry Chapter 5 - pg 224 is Sugars
PDF file to large - google - Nectar Chemistry Chapter 5
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 09/20/10 12:34 AM

My sugar glider`s tend to love the sun coast sugar glider pellet food its the only pellet food they eat.
Posted By: turbo325is

Re: Pelleted food?? - 10/22/10 03:28 AM

o.o instering i feed like 60/40 fruits/menies to pellets i just looking for a good brand of pellets
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 10/24/10 05:14 AM

Originally Posted By: josefine
dog food should not be fed to cats,it is unhealthy,so i don't give 'treats' of dog food to my gliders.this messes up a cats digestion, so i would think it would do the same for a glider.
but,as far as i know(& have learned)that high quality cat food isn't harmful for them,& some of it is good for them,too. IMO

Actually, the reason cats should not be fed dog food is because they require more protein in their diet, and dog food doesn't have enough. Cats will develop uti and bladder infections if fed a diet lacking in protein. Gliders may have similar issues with protein in kibble not designed for their needs.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 10/24/10 11:36 AM

Hi I seen you mentioned you have some video of sugar gliders on facebook can you let me know what your name is on there as I would like to view these vids, also do you know of any other site that has videos of sugar gliders in the wild that teach more about them such as what all the sounds they make possibly mean and how they live? If so please send me a private message I am on facebook under the name Karen Fontana Have a great day
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Pelleted food?? - 12/11/10 08:19 PM

I did a search for the happy glider pellet food and under the google search a bunch of bags are being sold on ebay. Does anyone thing this is legit happy glider good or some rip off being sold on ebay?? Just curious. smile
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