Should I pull him?

Raul is 5 weeks old and only weighs 13 grams.

I noticed ealier this week that mom wasn't feeding him, so I have been supplimenting him 4 times a day.

I have found him hanging outside of the pouch once and towards the top once. Other than that he has been deep in the pouch. But earlier in the week he was off to the side or on top of the others, not snuggled down in the warmth of mom and dad like I thought he should be.

No one has hurt him and I guess they are cleaning and helping him to potty, but other than that they arent doing much else. He's usually always cold when I get him out for his feedings.

I just don't know if it would be better to pull him full time or what? I feel so bad for him and I've never had this kind of issue whith any of the other few joey's I've had.

Rakastaa is a first time mom and this was a single birth.

Any and all advice is extremely appreciative!

That is very very tiny for 5 weeks.

You will need to increase the feedings round the clock instead of only supplementing him. Watch him closely to detemine how often to feed him, I would say every 2-4 hours. He is crawing out of the pouch because he is hungry. Also be sure to weigh him everyday, he should gain about 1 gram per day. He is very behind on his growth and development...I have had joeys come OOP larger than 13 grams...are you sure that is accurate?

If the parents are not hurting him it is best he stays with them so they can groom him and teach him to how to be a glider.

I also suggest taking the mom and baby to the vet, to make sure there is not a health problem causing this and if they are dehydrated the vet can give sub-q fluids.

Mealworms and a nectar supplement help with milk production, if that turns out to be the problem. Good luck!

I bought the wrong kind of scale the other day, and bought a digital one today on my way to work. I knew he was tiny for his age, but didnt realize just HOW tiny he was till tonight when I got home from work.

Mom is NOT feeding him anymore, hasn't been since sat or sun. Everytime I have supplimented him, he has not been nursing. She's not even attempting to. I also heard her making that noise they make at their joey's when they are annoyed and don't want them to nurse anymore.

He was doing so well in the beginning, so was mom. I never thought for a minute that she would stop feeding him.

He's also always cold (really cold)when I get him out of the pouch for his feedings too.

It sounds like it is time to pull him. If he is cold, he can't digest his food properly. He needs to stay warm. 13 grams for 5 weeks is dangerously small. I've had joeys come oop larger than that. This little one needs you to be his mom.

Thats what I've been thinking. I warm him up before feeding him, but he only eats .3 cc's at each feeding. And I thought with him being as cold as he usually is, that it can't be good for him.

I swear he was at deaths door saturday when I started supplimenting him! Today he seemed more lively than he had been since saturday, but he still scares me and I know we're not out of the woods just yet.

in my opinion...

As long as the mom is not HURTING the joey in any way it is better to leave them together, but definitely feed the joey. The joey needs to be kept warm and definitely needs to be warm to feed and digest food properly. I would contact suz.
http://www.suzsugargliders.com/index.htm her info on her site was wonderful and helped me raise my Arwen from 5 days OOP!

Sherri, I agree with Teresa - at this point I would completely pull him. The fact that you've found him very cold multiple times means that the parents are really rejecting him. If they were going to take care of him at all, they'd keep him warm. Call me today, if you have more questions

(P.S. got your box sent out yesterday via UPS)

I agree with Teresa and Suz, mom and dad are not even keeping him warm so I would definitely pull and keep him in a warm incubator but since he is so dangerously small I would even say keep him on you skin in your bra but make sure he can breath. Definitely feed him more often. Poor little guy. Keeping you guys in my thoughts and prayers.

Anna

Glad you've been keeping a close watch on the situation. With what you've described-I'd say its definitely time to pull him. Good luck with him

hmmmm.... if the mom is kicking him out of the nice warm pouch, and he is in the cold, i wouldnt think it best to leave him with her. sounds like he needs to be a bra baby! lol

I would pull him and set him up in a critter keeper with lots of fleece. Set it on top of a heating pad wrapped in a bath towel. Make sure the heating pad is the type that stays on. All of this is on Suz site and as we all know, Suz is a Godsend! I used all of her advice to save Mshki and he is doing awesome! 13 grams is very small, so I would be feeding him every couple hours around the clock with the joey formula. Once he can stay warm, his appetite should pick up. I hope he turns around for you! If you can keep him with you during the day that will help him too!

Just a note that the incubator is ONLY meant to be used at night when you have to get some sleep. Otherwise, the joey should be tucked in a fleece blanket or in a bra pouch in your shirt. This gives the joey your body warmth, your humidity and your heartbeat

Last night Raul slept with me. I hated to have to pull him, but 5 weeks old and I have to treat him as a newly oop joey? Thats crazy! I'm hoping with constant warmth and more feedings that he'll catch up to where he needs to be in no time! Thank you for all your advice!

I'm sure that I'll have more questions later. LOL

Oh yeah I do have one more. Should I be stimulating him to potty? I know that they should be going on their own at this age, but I haven't seen him go at all any of the times I have fed him. And last night the fleece that he was wrapped up in all night was dry and clean as a bone. Suggestions? And yes I have tried stimulating him, but still nothing that I could tell.

Gliders, especially joeys use a great deal of energy just keeping warm. When the parents aren't snuggling with the joey, most of the joey's food intake goes into keeping them warm and so little is left over for growing. This could be why he is so tiny still.

I would feed him every hour right now, atleast during the day and then every two hours at night. As much as he will eat each time. Then as he starts to gain, you can go to every two hours during the day too.

Once he has really shown some growth, then you can start spacing out the feedings more. I would also use the newborn formula without baby cereal in it. He needs nutrition more than filler right now (the cereal is a filler).

His tiny size reminds me of Thumbalina, a little joey Anita Totty raised. You might talk to her more directly to see if she did anything different with her.

I agree with Teresa 100% And yes, you should stimulate him to go potty until you physically seeing him doing so on his own.

Thank you again SOOOO MUCH!!!

Yay!!!! He poopied!!!! First time since I've been feeding him and trying to stimulating him to go and he finally DID!!!! Alot too, I might add. LOL

I have fed him 4 times already today and he has ate .3 -.4cc's EVERY time!

I'm just so happy right now. Its amazing how good some poopy can make you feel! LOL

That's great news! I know how excited I was with Mshki every time he went! It's the little things that get us Mom's excited!

Before my first rejected joey, I saw posts where people were thrilled when their joey pooped and I couldn't understand why.

THEN, I had my first rejected joey of my own. The first time it pooped, you would have thought I'd just been given a million bucks!

Congratulations on your tiny one!!

Erin also agreed with what I had said. About if mom is not HURTING them...but every situation is different and needs to be evaluated on its own merits. Is the joey found cold everytime you go to the cage? or just once in a while? Do the parents act happy when you replace the joey or do they immediately push it away? Are the parents the ones pushing the joey out or is it crawling out on its own? is the pouch too crowded? All these things should be taken into consideration. While I myself have handraised NUMEROUS animals...it truly is best to leave them with the real parents as long as possible as handraising any baby animal CAN create health and emotional issues. At this point I am happy the joey is doing well AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS! I dont want this to be a debate, but I felt a need to explain myself. As someone who has taken in wild baby rabbits because someone found them....abandoned...I understand how easy it is to panic when something seems wrong and want to fix it. But sometimes we dont need to FIX it perhaps just nudge it a bit. Sometimes mom isnt producing enough milk and all she needs to welcome baby back is some supplemental feeding of the joey and as long as baby isnt nursing, mom is happy to keep the baby. Again, each situation is different. And there may be reasons mom doesnt want a baby that we just dont see. I am sure there was/is something wrong with my Arwen. She was fully half the size of her brother when they were "born", and to this day is smaller than the rest of her family (of course she is the smartest of the bunch!)and perhaps her mom "sensed" something was wrong with her.
sometimes it is best to go with your instincts, and hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

By the way...this spring...everyone leave those baby bunnies ALONE unless you know for certain that the mommy is dead! They have not been abandoned!

have a wonderful day everyone! I am going shopping for more fleece!
I pray the little one does well and keeps making those poopies! LOL

With the parents leaving the joey and the joey getting cold constantly, it IS hurting the joey. They might not be biting him but, at 5 weeks and just 13 grams, this joey IS being hurt.

Pulling him is his only chance to survive. If he isn't kept warm, he won't be able to grow.

Yup I agree with Teresa and posted this on SGN yesterday if he isn't staying warm then he won't gain wait. Sadly its time to pull him which I believe Sherri already did.

Teresa is right on this the joeys is being put at risk by leaving this joey in with its parents. Im happy that the baby is doing better now that you have pulled the joey.
And those who have had to hand raise a rejected joey can tell you that handraising these babies usually makes them be the sweetest babies ever and emotionally they do fine .Connie who has her baby Roo can tell you just how special that little boy is due to her having to hand raise him since the breeder who sold this joey sold it to the person right after his eyes were open.And handraising a joey that is already suffering due to not being properly taken care of will also make that joey healthier due to being taken care of properly.

This is my little man last night. Sorry the pic isn't the greatest, I took it with my cell phone.

Sherri:
I am not getting on you, but this joey looks to be no older than 2-3 weeks oop. If he came out as a pinkie this is the danger of calling a joey out of pouch too early and then re-homing at eight weeks(for newbie breeders, please start your oop date from a fully furred joey or when the eyes open). Look at the features of a NOT fluffy tail, the way he is standing spread eagle with front feet and his face has the baby face look. His eyes don't even seem to be open enough for an five week old. Look at Dancing's five week old pic she posted today. Also have seen mill breeder selling a glider that had the same features as this glider. DO NOT buy a joey this young from anybody(I know you aren't selling him and trying to save him Sherri.) Much less the weight of him.

Sorry I got off topic Sherri and hope your little man will pull through...
Art

oh wow, it is hard to believe he is 5 weeks oop. But ya know, the runt of the litter is always the fiestiest and the best. Hang in there Sherri and you too Raul!

Art, I know Sherri and I know she knows how to age a glider's oop date. With Raul, this little guy has had a rough start and is lucky to still be alive. I have full confidence in Sherri and if Raul is going to make it, it will be because of her love and dedication.

But you are right...to any new owners who see these photos of Raul, this is NOT what a 5 week oop joey should look like. By 5 weeks, they should be MUCH larger and fully fluffy. They should be able to move around and explore on their own (even if they choose to still hang out in the sleep pouch). They will about this time start to explore the foods mom and dad are eating and should, by this age be able to go potty on their own.

That's why I posted what I did. It wasn't to say anything against Sherri but to explain to new owners who jump into breeding.
Art

Raul's official oop date is 1/17/10

Here is the thread when I first intro'ed him into the community.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/..._Ram#Post896749

Roo is definitely my most bonded glider. He came to me, approx a month OOP and weighed about 20 grams. I fed him every hour on the hour, for six weeks. Thank God my daughter helped me or I'd never have gotten any sleep. He was PPP baby and also has 2 parasites and 1 bacteria. He didn't have a cage mate until he was about 8 months old, so besides being with me all day, he woke me every morning around 5, to play. Since he was alone, I became his cage mate. I love all of my babies, but there's an extra strong bond between Roo and me. Raising a rejected joey is always a last resort but a necessary one sometimes. Everyone I know, who has raised a rejected joey, has a very special bond with them. You become their parent, they become your child.

I agree in that they bond strongly. I myself had to handraise my Arwen from 5 days oop! What I meant when I mentioned a concern of emotional developement...MOST animal babies when taken from the mother too young defiantely develope some kind of emotional or physical health issue. There is plenty of evidence supporting that. What we can provide in the way of mother's milk is no where as healthy as the REAL mother. Sometimes the risk is worth it to save a life...WHAT I WORRY ABOUT is people wanting that special bond so bad they pull a joey and hand raise it when that doesnt NEED to be done. I am not saying that is the case here! but so many visit this forum and hear us talking about those "bonds" and I worry about someone doing it for the sake of the relationship they think they will have, at the risk of a baby who will not be as healthy as adjusted as they should be. I tried to get the point across gently, because I know how easy it is to be misunderstood here. I would love to see some people support the thought that handraising is only for emergencies. sorry if I upset anybody, but the truth is we are not the best parent they can have.

This is ABSOLUTELY right! No joey should be pulled from the parents unless it is to save the life of the joey or mother. Sometimes mom's can get pouch infections etc that make it necessary to pull the joey.

I also believe that keeping joey's with their parents is the best thing possible. I really hated to have to pull him and it broke my heart to take him from his family, but after almost a week of supplimenting him and keeping him with his family he was actually getting worse and not better.


Momma's milk and family weaning is always the best and handraising should ONLY be done as a last resort for the joey or the momma's health.

I think this is a myth that spread over from Bird knowledge. Parrots are frequently handraised.

I've seen some advertisers (NOT on GC, thankfully) advertise their "Hand Raised!" gliders as if this is something special.

The special glider/human bond can be formed when the joeys are raised by the parents, and gliders do NOT need to be hand raised in order to bond with their owners.

Again - just trying to state that clearly for anyone who comes to gliders with Parrot knowledge! Sherri - I know you'll keep us updated on little Raul! Hope he starts thriving right away!

I completely agree. While the bond IS strong, we 'second moms' don't know exactly what their needs are. We're not gliders. Formula isn't as good as mama's milk. Glider parents are almost always best.

On that note, while some parents might reject a joey, it doesn't mean they will every time. But if they reject twice, it's time to neuter the dad cause they don't want to be parents or don't know how and to force them to continue with more pregnancies and rejections is way too stressful on them.

I've already decided if this happens again that dad will be neutered, since I DO NOT want to do this again.

And I applaud all of you that have had to go through this before, its alot harder than most would think it to be.

Well its off to get Raul fed and potty, then clean him up. He's getting awfully squirmy and says "It's time to get up."

I'm glad he is doing well, Sherri! It is one of the hardest jobs you will ever love and is so rewarding. I was so scared and sleepy the whole time with Mshki, but now he is the most precious, sweet baby I have. I do love all of them but he is very special and thinks of me as his Mama.

Just a little update on Raul....

He is up to eating .5 cc's each feeding now, he has gained 2 grams since friday, and last night he poopied once by himself!

I can't get over how well he is doing, he is wanting to do a little wandering around and checking things out. And he cries when I try to put him in his incubator at night.

I'll have to get new pics up later today.

That's wonderful Sherri. I'm so glad he is improving, gaining weight, and starting to wander around. (gaining strength).

I know that joey cry all too well. It sure melts your heart and makes you feel guilty for putting him in the incubator.

Does he have a little (stuffed) friend he can snuggle with in the incubator? If you get one small enough to let him snuggle with in your bra too, it will make it more of a companion for him at night too. More familiar.

With my rejected joeys, I took some of the super soft baby fleece (not usually recommended for pouches) and made just little snuggle buddies. Nothing fancy, shaped kinda like a peanut, but something that was theirs. Duncan would, even as an adult, carry that thing around with him like Pigpen's security blanket (if you don't know who Pigpen is, you sure missed out on some great Peanut cartoons!)

I never thought of that Teresa! Thanks! I do have some super soft fleece I can make him little buddies out of. Anything that I can do to make him feel more secure in his incubator without me will help.

And I would love to see a pic of Duncan carrying around his little buddy. That had to be the most cutest thing ever!

And yes, I had my fair share of watching Peanuts growing up. Gotta love Pigpen! But of course Snoopy was my favorite!

Just now catching up on all your goings on here, Sherri. While I don't envy the road you're on, I will commend you for the devotion it requires to do it.

Geez, he's a lil' bit of a joey! Hope he catches up with himself real soon! Keep feeding him as much as he'll eat...and I'm about in tears reading how excited you got over the pottying thing...only on GC will others share in your excitement!

If you need some extra fuzzy fleece to make buddies with, give a whistle...I have some AWESOME royal blue fleece lying around & lots of scraps to stuff it with!

Good luck!

OK, where are the pictures??? *stomping foot impatiently*

I'm thinking of renaming Raul, his new name shall be Stuart Little! And here's why. This chicken nugget is bigger than he is!

LOL....he's like mmmmmm what is this? Smells good.

Poor little guy looks a little rough, since I'm a poor substitute for his momma in the grooming department. LOL

What do you use....baby wipes?

Yeah baby wipes, warm damp baby tooth brush, it doesnt seem to matter how I try to clean him, I can't seem to do it good enough. But luckily he is starting to groom himself, so I guess he also thinks I'm not doing a good job either. LOL

I'm sure he'll be able to get in the nook and crannies

Good luck with that little cutie. I will love hearing more about his progress. This definitely was an emergency and doubt very much he would have lasted uch longer. I am learning so much from this site.

Stuart is doing so much better! He is grooming himself and going potty all on his own now. He is drinking almost a full cc at each feeding, and has so much more energy and is awake more than he was. I'm positive that this little guy is going to make it. I'm just a little worried that he is going to stay very small even into adulthood. But at least I know he will make it to adulthood now. Things were pretty touch and go in the beginning.

Sherri, there's a slight possibility that he will stay small, but in my experience, even the smallest rejected joey suddenly goes through a growth spurt and catches up to its peers. Little Cleo was only 20 grams when I picked her up from Nicole/guerita135 at 5 weeks out of pouch. She is now 2 months oop and weighed 43.71 grams last night She's doing her catching up now

Roo was 20 grams at approx a month OOP. He now weighs between 80-82 grams and is 18 months old.

I hope Stuart does catch up, it just seems like after 2 weeks of having to handraise him, that he should be bigger than he is. But then again, I think he was worse off than I thought when I pulled him. Now that I think back to how he was when I first pulled him, I think he was actually at deaths door. So yeah it may take awhile for him to catch up.

And he has learned how to groom me (sometimes a little to rough) and how to crab. LOL

too cute, when you get a chance I'd love to see a little video of this guy.

As far as the rough grooming, you have to teach him what's too much now that you are the mom. (I wonder if the TSST thing works on rejected joeys?)

I hope Stuart keeps progressing and grows up big and strong after having a struggle early on.

Thank you for posting his oop pics and that gliders should not be pulled from their famalies until fully weaned, and only then if it is life threatening should the joey be removed and hand fed.
Art

my little ladies were each 50 gms. at 8 wks. oop, weighed
at the vets office and they were fed by their mother. i guess they will be small like their mother.


regards,
nancy in detroit

Here is a couple of more recent pics of Stuart. Please forgive me, but I have lost my camera charger and took these last week with my cell phone.

Stuart is now 9 weeks and is in a 38 gallon rept without the heating pad. No more middle of the night time feedings, he is eating from a small saucer at night.

He also weighs in at a whopping 38 grams and is doing fantastic! I couldn't be happier at how well he is doing. I was really worried if he would even make it when I pulled him.

he is so adorable. your hard work is paying off.

regards,
nancy in detroit

He's such a sweet looking baby! That second pic is just adorable at its best! You're doing such a fantastic job!!!! congratulations!

42 grams this morning and going to town eating all his night time supper that I put in his cage. Day time feedings are getting fewer and further in between. He's not eating as much at each feeding during the day. So I figure those will become a thing of the past this week.

My next big step is the water bottle. He still is drinking his formula from a little saucer. He's not fond of water at all.

He's finally fluffing up really nicely now, so I have to get new pics again. Any excuse to take more pics of Stuart is a good excuse. LOL

These pics are from just a few minutes ago. See how BIG he's getting!? Not the tiny little man from a few weeks back.

Wow, he's cute!