GliderCENTRAL

Leucistic hets

Posted By: Anonymous

Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:13 AM

[:"blue"] [/] What are Leucistic hets? Is that some sort of breed mix? Also does anybody have any pics of what a Leucistic/Grey glider would look like? Or at least a description of color? I would eventually like to get my little grey a partner, and really like what Leucistic gliders look like. So seeing as how he's a boy I have to get a girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Anyways lemme know what ya think of the idea. Thanks a lot!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:20 AM

a leucistic het will look just like any other grey

in order to get a leucistic you would need to breed to hets or a het w/ a leucistic

het means heterozygous; a het means that the glider has had a leucistic parent and a het, or grey parent... if the glider is from a leucistic and a het, and it is grey it is a het for the leucistic trait (has 1 leucistic allele and 1 grey allele); the leucistic w/ a regular grey means it will also be a het

since yours is a grey there is no way to breed a leucistic glider from him

I could try and explain this better, but it's hard.. sorry lol
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:25 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"blue"] [/] What are Leucistic hets Is that some sort of breed mix? Also does anybody have any pics of what a Leucistic/Grey glider would look like? Or at least a description of color? I would eventually like to get my little grey a partner, and really like what Leucistic gliders look like. So seeing as how he's a boy I have to get a girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Anyways lemme know what ya think of the idea. Thanks a lot!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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Well first of all you could have 2 males together. So you wouldn't need to get a female. Secondly leucistics and/ or hets are very expensive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:28 AM

That is one of the most confussing things i think i've ever heard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />! lol. Would it be possible for you to give me a little bit of an explination as to why my greys can't breed leucistics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />? Thanks
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:32 AM

Het is like having the gene for it. They aren't leucistic, but their babies could be if they are bred right. Kind of like with dogs, if you breed two pure black labs, you'll get a black lab. If you start mixing chocolate and black labs, you may get one or the other, depending on which gene is stronger, and what traits both parents have.

Your greys probably don't have the leucistic background, therefore they can't have leucistic babies.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:40 AM

A het for leucistic is a glider that had a white parent but looks like it's grey parent. Two greys that do not have atleast one leucistic parent (one leucistic parent=het for leucistic)won't produce leucistic joeys. Now if your grey has a leucistic parent then it IS het for leucistic and if paired with another het there is a chance for leucistic offspring.

I think I have that right.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:41 AM

Having Leucistic bb's isn't that important as long as they can have some kind, be it grey or leucistic or whatever.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:44 AM

Faierie might have done a better job explaining it... I forget most people are not as geeky as I am... lol

she's right... it's like w/ people's eye color... everyone has 2 alleles that affect their eye color (one allele from each parent) the brown eye color is dominant or stronger so that if you have the brown allele you will have brown eyes, if you have 1 brown and 1 blue allele, your eyes will still be brown (the blue allele is called recessive and you would need both blue alleles to have blue eyes)

a het would have 1 blue, 1 brown allele and have a brown eye color (like a leucistic het looking like any regular grey)

unless your grey had a leucistic parent (which have 2 leucistic alleles and passes 1 to the young) it cannot have a leucistic baby because it has 2 grey alleles and would pass 1 of those onto the baby (the grey allele, like the brown eye color allele, is dominant)

hope that helps... I know Faierie made it sound much easier, but I figured this might help you to understand what I posted before! I don't want to be some rambling looney that no1 can understand!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:46 AM

There are some good color examples at The Pet Glider.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:50 AM

leucistic hets cost about $1000. Unless you are planning on pairing a leucitic het with another glider with leucistic genes, it's kind of a waist of money because you have almost no chance of producing a leucistic. I would recommend a WFB. They are much easier to get a hold of, cost $400-$500 and when breed with a normal colored glider they still produce WFB's over 50% of the time...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:51 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> LOL I am probably far geekier than you, Faery. I write computer code for a living, and a hobby, and even met my bf of 2 years on Yahoo personals with an ad specifically asking for a geek guy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> If you are geekier than me that I will definitely bow to your greatness, though! (I did work tech support on the phones once, and boy oh boy did I learn to break geek speak down!)

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:55 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> man; everyone else knows how to be succinct <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" /> ... I must work on that... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 04:57 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> lol Faierie, you take the computer geek throne, and I'll take the biology one!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 05:21 AM

LOL. Seems this het stuff pops up so frequently...

I loved genetics. Yea, Faery definitely explained it... I had some people say they understood the concept in a previous post when I last attempted to tackle the explanation of the genetics...

All traits determined by DNA are generally either dominant or recessive. Examples of dominant traits are straight hair, dark hair, dark eyes, the presence of a widow's peak, free ear lobes, the ability to curl your tongue in the shape of a "u". Examples of recessive traits are curly hair, light hair, light eyes, the absence of a widow's peak, the absence of ear lobes, the inability to curl your tongue in the shape of a "u".

Faery brought up the example of eye colour. Brown eyes in humans are caused by a dominant allele (trait expressed through a gene) and blue eyes are caused by a recessive allele. So basically, when two people have kids, half of the father's genes and half of the mother's genes go into the composition of the kid's DNA makeup. Theoretically, because the allele for brown eyes is 'dominant' you only need one 'brown eye' allele from either the mom or the dad for the child to have brown eyes. Even if one of the parents pass on a 'blue eye' allele to the child, the blue eyes (usually) don't occur because the dominant 'brown eye' allele from the other parent supercedes the recessive 'blue eye' allele, so the 'blue eye' allele remains hidden in the DNA of the child. This means then, that you need both parents to pass on a 'blue eye' allele to the child (one from the mom and one from the dad) in order for the child to have blue eyes.

So in reference to a heterozygote, often, you have two human parents with brown eyes that give birth to children with blue eyes, that is caused by a hidden recessive "blue eyes" allele in both parents that carries onto the kids and causes the child to be blue eyed. The parents are said to be heterozygous for blue eyes.

Applying to gliders then, the standard grey colour in gliders is caused by a dominant gene and any other colour phase like leucistic or cinnamon is generally recessive. Hypothetically, when a standard grey glider mates with a leucistic glider, for example, you often have young that turn out to be standard greys, but with examination of the youngsters' DNA you would discover that most of the joeys (if not all) turn out to be heterozygous for the recessive leucistic colour gene. It's just hidden and not expressed.

The reason why hets are great keeps is because though certain colour phases like leucistic may be more difficult to find at some times, more often breeders will have all these hets available for sale and once hets (i.e. standard grey gliders carrying a hidden colour in its DNA) are mated with other hets the chances of getting the fully different colour phase in the joeys are much, much higher than if you mated 2 normal, homozygous (the opposite of heterozygous)standard greys!

I hope that may have cleared things up... or pahaps it confused you even more... lol I hope not... This genetics stuff can get really complicated...

In the case of the leucistic trait, for example, there are other issues that more than likely apply to the phenotype like incomplete dominance, the multiple allele factor, as well as a series of others (actually, I'm almost certain the leucistic phenotype is much more complicated than the basic dominant/recessive model, seeing as the percentages of the outcome of leucistic young generally don't follow the basic Punnet Square percentages outlined by a standard dominant/recessive model). Generally, the leucistic phase isn't completely understood as of yet in regards to the science of the genetics. All we can do at this point is make inferences from the observation of breedings.

Hope this may have answered your questions Canadian Glider GUY!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 05:34 AM

lol Mikey! you went even more indepth than I did...

since your a genetics person too; do you remember the difference between co-dominance and blending? I've been trying to remember, but my old bio book is at home and I'm here, lol!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 05:52 AM

Co-dominance and blending...

Yes co-dominance. A good example of that is found in the genetics determining human blood type. Sometimes two alleles at a locus produce 2 different phenotypes that both appear in heterozygotes. It's evident in the human blood group system ABO in humans. One allele of the gene determines the A blood type and another determines the B blood type. When both alleles are present (heterozygous) then both are expressed, meaning the AB bloodtype occurs, and proteins produced by both alleles occur in the blood.

It relates to one of the things I did mention - incomplete dominance.

More often dominant genes aren't so basic. There's a genteic principle called incomplete dominance which is the condition in which the hetrozygous phenotype is intermediate between the two homozygous phenotypes. In other words, some genes have alleles that are not dominant and recessive to eachother and instead, the heterozygotes show an intermediate phenotype. I remember we used to use the example of snap dragon flowers in university.

If a true-breeding red snap dragon is cross bred with a true-breeding white one, all the next generation of flowers will be pink. So as in this example, when the heterozygous phenotype is intermediate, the gene is said to be governed by incomplete dominance.

Perhaps this is why the eye colour example isn't a completely accurate example of the basic dominant/recessive model because we do have intermediate colours other than blue and brown, like green, grey, hazel, etc and it's an example of incomplete dominance. I think from now on I'm going to use the rolling "U" tongue example or the widow's peak example when explaining dominance/recession/heterozygotes... lol. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

In regards to blending, I'm not sure exactly what that is but I think it's perhaps another term for the other thing I mentioned which was multiple alleles. More often some traits will incorporate more than two alleles of a given gene. An example of this would be in the fruit fly (Oh, how we loved studying Drosphila sp. in genetics... NOT! So boring and monotonous...) and in particular the fruit fly's eye colour. In the fruit fly many alleles (not only two) at one locus affect eye colour by determining the amount of pigment produced. The outcome of the exact eye colour in the fruit fly is determined by which two alleles are inherited from the parents. Perhaps that is the same as your terminology of blending.


Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 09:51 AM

Now that we have covered all the theory of breeding for color I would like to know how many have ever bred het to het and gotten joeys that were colored.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 10:20 AM

When two leu. hets are bred together the babies have a 25% chance of being leucisitc, 50% leu. het, and 25% normal. Unfortunately I have no results to back this up (I own all greys), only statistics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Is blending due to "crossing over" during meiosis?

This is a little off topic, but since we were discussing genetics have any of you heard of a precursor ? I was thinking this may apply to the platinum coloring (or maybe not, just a hypothesis <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Is it ok if I am the chemistry geek?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 10:37 AM

LOL Yes. The chem geek is completely you Squirrel! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Her Squirrel, I wanted to know how you determined this or where you may have read it?

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25% chance of being leucisitc, 50% leu. het, and 25% normal

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From what I've been reading around these forums and in other references, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the leucistic trait doesn't follow the basic dominant/recessive model and thus the ratio (or percentages)of 1:2:1 (leucistic:het:standard) or in other words 25%:50%:25%. That's why I am almost certain that other genetic factors come into play (i.e. multiple alleles, incomplete dominance, etc.) Someone even suggested that she noticed that there was a sexually-related trend in the lighter colour phases so perhaps it could be a sex-linked gene plus any or none fo the above factors.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 10:42 AM

It sounds like you know more about the leu. gene than I do, I was just thinking it was only recessive. What colors were possibly sex-related?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 10:54 AM

Does anyone even have a large enough sample size to produce a good ratio for leu. breeding? Or for any other color for that matter. Sheila is in the progress of making a genetic database for her breedings. Its a great idea.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 10:54 AM

Well, I have read that white-faced blondes, leucistics, and perhaps platinum are traits which may be influenced by a sex-linked gene... now I say "influenced" as opposed to "determined" because if it were dtermined by a sex-linked gene, it would be consistent and all the members of the particular colour phase would be the same sex. However, because the lady mentioned that she noticed that more often a particular colour phase (I believe it was either white-tip tail or white-faced blond) occured more often in males than females, but still did commonly occur in females, then that gives us reason to believe that perhaps the trait is influenced by a sex-linked gene but not completely detrmined by it (again, perhaps resulting from a combination of other genes located on a different choromose or other genetic factors like incomplete dominance or multiple alleles).

In regards to this:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Does anyone even have a large enough sample size to produce a good ratio for leu. breeding? Or for any other color for that matter.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The percentages are merely average probability figures which can be calculated through Medellian theory (punnet squares, etc) but the nature of the phenotype must first be known in order to obtain those averages. In other words, if it's the simple dominant/recessive trait, then the Medellian theory model indicates that the offspring will be in the ratio of approximately 1:2:1 for homozygous dominant:heterozygous:homozygous recessive. It gets trickier though with the more complex phenotypes, and I'd imagine calculating percentages of the leucistic phenotype would fall under such a category. This is why Sheila's documents of her leucistics will prove invaluable to breeders all over! I think it's great!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 11:00 AM

We posted at the same time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Did you read about the precursor I linked to? There are other types of precursors, but I'm pretty sure they all have the same ratios (I need to dig my genetics stuff out again). For the white-tip to be sex-related it kind of makes sense, but I wonder if the allele is carried on the x or y chromosome?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 11:05 AM

Yes... I also wonder that...

I'm not going to even attempt tackle that whole precursor issue this late in the morning. It was one of the most boring and complex sections of biochem ever. LOL. I'll definitely look into it though...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 11:11 AM

Yet again I need to dig out my genetics stuff to be sure as well. I gotta go to bed, Good Night! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 11:14 AM

Oh, i took a look at it Squirrel, and that "precursor" concept that you posted is a description of Medellian's law of independent assortment (and in our case) as it relates to the multiple allele factor that I mentioned or any other genetic factors that may be... in which case yes, it may pertain to the platinum phase, and also the leucistic, wfb, white tip, and buttercream phases, as well as others. I thought you were referring to something else when you mentioned "precursors"... something totally different and metabolically/hormonally related.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 11:31 AM

Mikey, I think you a refering to a post I made when you were talking about WFB and WT being sex linked. There seems to be a much higher percentage of males produced than females when breeding WFB's to normals and WT males seem to pop up more than WT female even though there are females of both variations.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 11:38 AM

Ah-ha... Thanks Leyna. If that's the case, then as mentioned it's more than likely a sex-linked gene that influences those particular colour phenotypes... and perhaps even others like leucistic and platinum. I feel it may be even more complex than that, though. *banging head against wall at 6:40 AM in the morning thinking about genetics*

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> I don't mean this literally but I would kill for even a leucistic or platinum het! Who knows what I'd do if I knew someone who owned a full leucistic or a platinum glider. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> I'd choose one over a car in a heartbeat! I drool over all these pictures from people owning gliders of different colour phases, but my favourite colour will always be the standard grey.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 05:12 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I bow to the geeky-greatness of Faery & Squirrle (there was no bowing emote)

And great question, Charlie! I kind of wondered that myself - how proven are the het statistics?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 05:18 PM

Mike Sandridge (sp) of Sandman Sugar Gliders has produced WFB's from 2 hets. Also, leucistics have been produced by 2 hets for leucistic (Sheila's Saleen, Larissa, and I think BabyDevilsAngel's Glacie were all from het/het pairs)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/25/05 05:45 PM

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And great question, Charlie! I kind of wondered that myself - how proven are the het statistics?

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Yeah, I don't think the het statistics especially as it relates to the glider leucistics are definitively proven. The genetic laws and theories themselves have proven their vaildity in other species through the many years of studies begining with contributions of Gregor Johann Mendel in 1850 and later those of the rest of the scientific genetics community. With the sugar glider species, however, I think at this point everything is theoretical and intuitive. It seems the leucistic phenotype and even the more simple colour phenotypes like cinnamon and champagne are still not completely understood. As was mentioned, we simply don't have nearly enough generations to be truly proving anything; sugar gliders were shipped/smuggled into North America in the late 80's which amounts to only 20 or so generations in captivity to date. We know the theory behind the genetics but it would really take time and years of breeding to really prove and determine with certainty the true nature of the colour phases in gliders. Even then, it will only be empirical knowledge unless we begin studying the genes at a microscopoic level, which I'm sure we still have yet to do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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Mike Sandridge (sp) of Sandman Sugar Gliders has produced WFB's from 2 hets. Also, leucistics have been produced by 2 hets for leucistic (Sheila's Saleen, Larissa, and I think BabyDevilsAngel's Glacie were all from het/het pairs)

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From the statistics of their breedings, we'll be able to make better inferences on the nature of the genetics. I really applaud each of them for undertaking such a venture! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 09:38 AM

Charlie, as far as the hets for Blonde, I have never put two hets together. Leyna is right though I have produced three Leucistics from Het to het breeding. Mickey and Minnie (normal colored hets) produced Saleen; Lil Dipper(normal color het) and Sunny(WFB Het) produced Larissa, Sammie and Sesamie's parents were both hets. Abbey (normal colored het) and Mickey (normal colored Het) have produced Glacie and we have two more coming out within the next couple of weeks that are white due to het to het breeding.
Also, don't want to correct Dancing, but you can actually get a het from a normal glider and a het glider which is normal color. There would only be a 50% chance that it is het, but neither parent or grandparent has to be white. The grandparents need to be 100 % het for Leucistic though.
Posted By: StitchsMom

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 10:15 AM

But, there really isn't a way to tell the difference between a het and normal grey, right? So, let's say you bred two luecistic hets and the baby is grey. Does that make it a het because both parents are hets? This stuff is soooo confusing. *LoL*

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> What if you breed a het luecistic with a wfb? I've heard you can get platinums. Is that right?

Ugh...my head hurts from reading this thread! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 11:30 AM

Haha....I agree Stitches...I have 2 hets, but wouldnt know if I had a colored joey if it came out with a label on it!!! Thats sad, but true...
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 11:47 AM

We have never had two hets for blonde produce blonde joeys either. I think one of the problems that breeders are encountering trying to use the color breeding stastic tables is that we are not starting out with true bloodlines. For instance so many of the gliders that appear to be WFB are actually the results of breeding a WFB to a gray glider. And there are not enough background on the WFB parent to actually know how it was produced. Although we are not involved in line breeding I can see where it needs to be done by responsible breeders like Shelia in order to develope more pure bloodlines. If everyone continues to out breed the WFBs with grays eventually the genes will be diminished. We have to start somewhere to develope the colors and it would seem that some inbreeding and line breeding is necessary to obtain favorable results. Since there is no national registry for gliders such as the AKC for dogs, it is up to each individual owner to keep records on their gliders pedigrees and cross reference with other breeders of color in gliders.

We do have WFB gliders and have records on all of our gliders but never focused on the WFBs in particular. Guess since there are so many people interested in breeding colored gliders I should dig through the paper work and establish a more concise pedigree for our WFBs. In the past our focus with the WFBs has been more on keeping them out of the hands of people who whould abuse them by over breeding and not giving them proper care.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 12:41 PM

"What if you breed a het luecistic with a wfb? I've heard you can get platinums. Is that right?"

Only 1 platinum has been produced by a lue het/WFB pairing and that's Sheila's Haley. It's thought that Bailey, Haley's WFB father, might have some special genetics though...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 04:07 PM

Wow! So complex, yet so intriguing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 04:28 PM

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We have never had two hets for blonde produce blonde joeys either. I think one of the problems that breeders are encountering trying to use the color breeding stastic tables is that we are not starting out with true bloodlines. For instance so many of the gliders that appear to be WFB are actually the results of breeding a WFB to a gray glider. And there are not enough background on the WFB parent to actually know how it was produced. Although we are not involved in line breeding I can see where it needs to be done by responsible breeders like Shelia in order to develope more pure bloodlines. If everyone continues to out breed the WFBs with grays eventually the genes will be diminished.

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I fully agree with Charlie on this one. What he's describing here is genetic drift. If that is the case (no blondes coming from two het blondes) then the nature of the genetics indicate that homozygous parents should be used as much as possible for the propogation of the phase.

So my next question is, then, how extensive are the pedegree records that people like Sheila have been documenting seeing as the WFB phase is quite a widespread bloodline? I hope she posts soon.

I really feel a group of people should perhaps come together and really attempt to co-ordinate a registry of some sort, analagous to the AKC for dogs. I know some people have attempted and that there are many factors involved including money, time, committment of members, etc but for the good of the glider gene pool it would for obvious reasons prove invaluable, especially for the colour phases like leucistic, platinum, etc. The documents of Sheila, Chris, and other breeders of colours recording and tracing bloodlines, would certainly set it off to a great start. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StitchsMom

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 05:59 PM

So, in other words, you have to stay as close to that true line as possible. You need both parents to be as close to Luecistic as possible and even then it works out best if one parent actually is a luecistic, right? That makes sense to me. :-)

I could have swore I read somewhere that the best pairing for a luecistic het is a wfb because it produces color variations more often than other pairings with a het luecistic. Where oh where did I read that?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 10:07 PM

Wow where to begin?

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A het for leucistic is a glider that had a white parent but looks like it's grey parent. Two greys that do not have atleast one leucistic parent (one leucistic parent=het for leucistic)won't produce leucistic joeys. Now if your grey has a leucistic parent then it IS het for leucistic and if paired with another het there is a chance for leucistic offspring.


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To clear things up: The immediate parent does not have to be a leucistic to pass the allel for leucistic to its offspring. It the granfather was a leucistic, for instance, and the mother was a het for leucistic, and the father did not carry the leucistic allel then the offspring of the parents would be possible hets. That is to say that they will have a 1 in 4 chance of carring the gene. If it does carry the gene, even though it is only a possible het it can be proved if it produces a leucistic, either by mating it to a leucistic or a het, or by chance to a normal looking glider that previosusly was not known for carring the gene.

Also genetics can be a lot more complex than simple Mendillian genetic theory. A het can look like a leucistic penotypically if the second wild variation allele is damaged or not transcribed correctly.

As for leucistic being sex linked, no that is wrong, there are both male and female leucistics and both male and female leucistic have produced leucistics.

We do not have the number of breedings necessary to say satistically, that the leucistic gene does not follow standard Mendillian genetics. As breeders we must assume this is true until disproved, or else our breeding programs become emensly complex.

What would be great would to discover the exact allel on the specific chromosome for each of these color variations this would give us a way to prove a het without waiting for a leucistic to be born and allow a faster way to diversify the bloodlines while still maintaing the variation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 10:13 PM

I do think the idea of a central database should be created to maintain and monitor these new color variations by keeping a single geneological tree for each variation, at least. A Registry is despriatly needed. People are not willing to submit their updates and no one is able to devote the time to maintain it. Right now my computer is in the shop and I will not be able to post much due to classes. I would love to get together with you Mike and go over what I have in the "Master Copy" of the Leucistic geneology and get your insight into what you think is happening genetically. I have to update it, it will take about a week. I will need to get permission from the breeders and owners first.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/26/05 11:48 PM

Hmmmm... you know I just realized something. Ushuaia, if the following statement is true:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A het can look like a leucistic penotypically if the second wild variation allele is damaged or is not transcribed properly...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

...then it's still a possibility that the leucistic phenotype can be a sex-linked gene. For instance, one possibility could be that the "leucistic" colour locus could be located on the "X" chromosome, and in short, the males may be leucistic hemizygotes and true leucistics and the daughters leucistic heterozygotes also appearing to be leucistics. I can attempt to draw a chart of the distribution of the mutant alleles.

This is only one possibility that would imply that perhaps leucistic could indeed still be sex-linked. I have a feeling still it's even more complicated than this. I feel perhaps the colour phases are determined by multiple alleles and the colour phases express themselves as an interaction/combination of the genes. Any thoughts?

Mikey

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 11:25 AM

Mikey - Isn't Medallian's Law of independant assortment pertaining to two alleles that do not effect each other? For example, say a pea has an allele for yellow (recessive) and green (dom.) peas, and another allele for wrinkled (rec.) or round (dom.) peas. One allele does not effect the outcome of the other. As for the precursor, one allele can cause the other allele to be masked (in the example I gave) so there they effect each other. I think this is something other geneticists figured out.

I'm not sure if I think the leu. gene is that complicated. I personally think there's a good possibility it is recessive. Have you looked at any numbers comparing the male leu. to female leu. ? I checked out one breeder and she had two female leu. and two male leu. This is a pretty even ratio (although this few of numbers doesn't even mean anything). Mendel used large breedings for each of the crosses he did. This is why his numbers are statistically significant. Sweet peas reproduce a whole lot faster and are easier to take care of than sugar gliders.

Even if there was more females leu. than males (vice versa), its hard to tell if its due to sex-linked genes because we don't have the number of breedings. Another example, take a coin and flip it several times, sometimes there are more heads than tails, but if you do it enough times you should eventually have a 1:1 ratio. Not to say that it the leu. gene couldn't come from sex-linked genes, just saying its very hard to tell right now with the number of breedings available.

I do think you're right when you say that certain colors come from multiple alleles. Its a very good possibility. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 05:43 PM

Faierie - I bow down to your computer skills! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> I took a java class my fresh. year and it was one of the hardest classes I've ever taken!

Ushuaia - I would also love to see a central database of geneology for the different color variations. Do you already have one put together and just need to update it? It would be extremely interesting to see. About how many leu. do you have on record? A database might give us some numbers that would be more accurate to base ratios off of and then with the ratios we can determine the genetics behind the colors (hopefully!). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey - Thank you so much for talking genetics with me! I have definately enjoyed it. We should open up a new thread about the genetics behind different color variations if you want to keep talking about this (this post is getting long and off topic). I'd really like to know your thoughts on more variations. For example, what about mozaics? I haven't checked out any crossings so I have no idea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 07:42 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Why am I such a BIG loser?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> LOL... Sorry, what I really meant here:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Oh, i took a look at it Squirrel, and that "precursor" concept that you posted is a description of Medellian's law of independent assortment (and in our case) as it relates to the multiple allele factor that I mentioned or any other genetic factors that may be...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

...was that it was a description of something like independent assortment as it relates to, etc... Ah, I'd stayed up all night and it was 6:30 AM or so when I wrote that LOL... my bad for the confusion... it certainly is NOT independent assortment and actually relates more to the factor of multiple alleles... *kicking myself for that one*

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, Squirrel, the reason I highly believe that the leucistic phenotype is much more complex than simply being a single recessive allele is because in many of the animals that I've studied, colour phases like leucistic and albino usually are quite genetically complex. There is much evidence that such phases are governed by multiple genes, in most cases.

For instance, albanism is really a generic term for the lack of pigmentation in the skin, hair, eyes, etc. There are however different types of albanism, e.g. occular albanism (where the eyes appear pink/red), partial albanism (non-pigmented and pigmented areas), Nystagmus Albanism (lacking some albanistic traits), etc.

Generally, albanism isn't simply governed by one gene or allele in most species (i.e. not governed by a single recessive/dominant allele) and is often the result of several genes or alleles interacting togther to bring about the albanism. In fact, in domestic rats, the species Rattus norvegicus, for example, there exist two phenotypes, a pink-eyed white and a red-eyed white, both of which appear albino. However, statistically and genetically, they bring about different ratios of offspring expressing the same phenotype, and thus suggesting that the two albanistic phenotypes are different in nature, and that albanism in the rats can actually be brought about by the effects from more than a single specific gene, i.e. through two or more possible genes or through the interaction of several genes. This is the case with many other species including various birds, certain fish, rabbits, and (I believe) ferrets. Of course we have had innumerable generations to observe such patterns in the animals, and obviously we haven't had the luxury to do so with the gliders. Alot still needs to be understood in regards to albanism in animals, and it can get complex especially when and if it's governed by multpiple genes and/or alleles. So, this is why I feel the rather exotic phenotypes like leucistic are more than likely very complex involving one or more genes/alleles and not just simply a single recessive one, like the single allele that controls whether or not a human can roll their tongue in the shape of a "U". Infact, haven't you seen a Himalayan rabbit - all white, red-eyes, seemingly albino but with black ears? It's evidence that albanism is controlled by multiple genes or multiple alleles, and I am confident in saying that the leucistic trait may be, as well.

With regards to the leucistic phenotype being sex-linked, I suggested it as a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out. I brought it up because Ushuaia mentioned that even heterozygotes can express the leucistic trait if the gene was damaged or not transribed properly. Thus, assuming the leucistic phenotype is sex-linked with the colour locus located on the "X" chromosome, you will have offspring that include the hemizygous males which express the leucistic phenotype, plus the possibility of heterozygous females which appear to be full leucistics but perhaps aren't true leucistic hemizygotes. Both will also be capable of producing offspring that may express the leucisticism whether they be true leucistic hemizygotes or simply leucistic heterozygotes. I doubt we really have enough generations to prove that this is not the case. This is yet another reason why, again, any recorded geneology of the leucistic phase would prove invaluable to the glider/breeding community. We'll be able to determine such trends like a greater frequency in males than females, etc. Also, it's worth mentioning that colour phases like albanism is considered sex-linked in parakeets and various other avian species. I don't think we should out rule the possibility that the leucistic trait as well as others like albanism is not sex-linked in gliders, especially if we're working with multiple genes here.

Squirrel, it's no problem talking genetics with you! I enjoy it. With genetics, things can get extremely complex and often requires a lot of inferring, guess work, evaluation of data, and problem-solving.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 08:19 PM

wow - I got really behind on this thread! (stupid classes!)

I have to agree w/ Mikey about a possibility of sex linkage... after all, look at the calico coat in cats, it's almost always a female color, but it is possible to get it in males; or color blindness in people: while most colorblind people are male (due to it being recessive and linked to the x chromosome) it still occurs in females

and I think Mikey is also right in saying that the genetics behind color are most likely extremely complex... we are still not positive in horses how it works and we've been breeding them forever. While for horses we have a pretty good idea, there's always cases where a mare throws an unexpected color.

therefore, I believe our best bet is to have genetics people look at lines and trees and hope that it follows Mendalian ideals and that it's not so complicated that we can't figure it out.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 09:07 PM

Mikey - You're not a big loser. I was just making sure that you didn't think that they were exactly the same thing. Its just an addition to the law of independant assortment.

I definately think there are multiple alleles when dealing with the color variations. I also think that there is a chance some of the variations could be sex-linked, due to a precursor, or codominant, and I'm not yet ruling out that the leu. gene is recessive. Our best bet is to wait for Ushuaia to get the database up and running and discuss what we think about each of the variations after we are able to see progeny from differnt crossings all in one place.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone even know how many chromosomes a sugar glider has? Has there ever been a gel electrophoresis done with glider DNA?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 09:11 PM

great question Squirrle!

I have no idea but would be very interested to find out
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 09:19 PM

I occasionally have access to a gel electrophoresis so I would really like to run a few sometime. I'll probably have to do some research for someone in the biology department in order to do this. I talked to a plant geneticist the other day and she's going to give me the name of an animal geneticist to talk to. So hopefully within the next year. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leucistic hets - 01/28/05 09:22 PM

that would be awesome... sadly, oocyte transplantation has nothing to do w/ using gels so I can't run one myself...
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