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Leu to Mosaic breeding...

Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 04:21 AM

Ok I would love to hear everyone's opinions on leu to mosaic breeding. I know a LOT of people are very against it but I'm just curious why. I know breeding a mosaic from a sterile line to a leu is bad I understand that, but why leu to a mosaic from a non sterile line?? I mean if we can introduce leu hets to mosaics which a lot of people do this pairing why not an actual leu.

I'm also curious about peoples arguments pairing two mosaics together. Is it the same arguments with leu to leu??? Cause I agree that leu to leu shouldn't be done but that is because I feel like the leu lines are STILL way too close together, I don't feel that this is so with the mosaic lines anymore. I know some people feel it is unnessicary to pair two mosaics together because if you pair two mosaics together there is a 3 to 4 chance of a mosaic everytime but a lot of people find this true with mosaic to non mosaic pairings as well..
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 04:43 AM

I'm pairing my female platinum mosaic with my male leu. I don't see anything wrong with it....She's my avatar. heart
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 05:34 AM

I see nothing wrong with leu to mosaic breeding(as long as the mosaic is from non-sterile lines). It breeds out the leu line AND produces even more unique mosaic babies. wink
Posted By: princessmegi

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 10:15 AM

I don't think the issue is so much breeding leu to mosaic, as it is breeding a leu with questionable genetics (from leu to leu pairing) into the mosaic line.
Posted By: Mel2mdl

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 12:13 PM

I would think it would depend on the glider's individual lineage, not just Leu to Mosaic. If a glider has a high inbreeding ratio, then they need to be bred out so to speak - or not bred at all. Both on the Leu and the Mosaic side.

I see some really bad pairings from people who should know better... and, even if I could afford a leu baby (or mosaic, for that matter), with some of the lineages I see, I would not get those even just for a pet. JMHO. grin
Posted By: gliderboy4life

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 03:21 PM

It is absolutely pointless to pair 2 mosaics together. Looking from a production standpoint you can produce twice as many color gliders if you breed 2 mosaics to something other than mosaic. From experience, if you breed 2 mosaics together you don't get any better color, infact the ones born from pairings like that don't even have as much color. You will still get the same amount of mosaics born from pairing them together as you do with pairing them to normals.

So all together, it isn't bad, but it is pointless. I do however think it would be a good way to controll the mosaic population and not overproduce.

So there's my 2 cents!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 04:08 PM

I think what everyone is worried about is the lineages... Not putting leu to leu or mo to mo but BAD lines with anything that will not help breed it out.
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 05:26 PM

Humm well I wonder why I have been warned that if I ever paired a mosaic and leu together the whole community would throw a hissy fit.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Humm well I wonder why I have been warned that if I ever paired a mosaic and leu together the whole community would throw a hissy fit.


roflmao

There are alot of great breeders with leu/mosaic pairings. If someone doesn't like it, too bad for them. You're your own person and can do what you want. wink You, obviously, know the rights and wrongs about breeding(no inbreeding, etc...).
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 06:09 PM

Very true Nichole. I might argue who actually is a great breeder and who is not but not this thread and not today roflmao

I just wanted to hear what other people thought of the pairing and if there was something I was missing.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 07:53 PM

Lol, I guess I should rephrase that: Some of the most reputable breeders happen to have leu/mosaic pairs. wink
Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 09:58 PM

I don't have any leu's or leu hets.. but I have always wondered.

I understand you say leu to leu is bad because they are so closely related.....but leu to lue het isn't.

isn't the leu and the leu het from the same line...just one has the leu color and the other carry...so wouldn't they be exactly the same in heritage....

so, if breeding to a het is fine..why isn't breeding to a lue.

I don't understand the genetics I guess.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 10:14 PM

I think it really depends on the type of het, if that makes sense. If you take a leu and cross it with, for the sake of example, a gray then the babies all only get the leu genes from one side of the family, so those are bred-out hets. If you have a leu and a leu-het (or two leu-hets) breeding and they produce both leu and gray babies then the gray babies aren't really as bred-out, as both their parents are from leu lines. The actual coat color of the babies really doesn't matter nearly as much as their ancestry matters, and the diversity of ancestries in both their parents. So crossing a leu with a bred-out leu-het would be safer genetically than crossing a leu with a het from two leu lines.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske
I don't have any leu's or leu hets.. but I have always wondered.

I understand you say leu to leu is bad because they are so closely related.....but leu to lue het isn't.

isn't the leu and the leu het from the same line...just one has the leu color and the other carry...so wouldn't they be exactly the same in heritage....

so, if breeding to a het is fine..why isn't breeding to a lue.

I don't understand the genetics I guess.


Actually, it's not recommended to breed a leu or 100% het to anything higher then a 50% het. A leu, 100% het, and even 66% het are pretty much the same thing. If you have 2 100% hets that you pair together and they have a leu and a gray glider then there's no difference between the leu and the 66% het. :/

A 50%, however, would be one generation bred out.

There IS an exception to the rule: some hets are from parents that were lower hets that proved out, thus, technically, making the babies lower hets. wink
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 10:24 PM

Two brothers of the same lineage, (one a leu one a 100% het) if you were to breed them to a female leu whether it be the 100% leu het brother or leu brother would be the same EXACT thing. Genetically speaking.

I really dont understand why alot of people think just because one is white it makes it any different... dunno

Responsible breeding is responsible breeding, keeping mind of lineages and relations. Of course there is a question of long term health, but I wonder myself about that since genetically the same genes make up the 100% hets as do the leus they just carry them differently.
Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/28/08 11:37 PM

ok, so you never breed a lue to a 100% lue het...that's where I was confused...I thought that was ok, hence why it made no sense.


lue het to a mosaic is a smart thing, right?
Posted By: Judie

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 12:08 AM

Hmmmm. Never heard of that rule... of Never breed to a 100% Leu Het.

What then if one breedes a Leu to a Normal?

All of the offspring from above.... would be 100% Leu Het with 50% of their genetic makeup coming from the Normal Gray Gene Pool.

??????

As for breeding Leu x Leu... I think most (including myself) are against it due to the two Leus not offering some diversity to the Pedigree of the offspring that are a result of this breeding.

As to breeding Leu to Non Sterile Mosaic Line... I see nothing wrong with it unless the Mosaic is also a 100% Leu Het and is paired to another Leu that is closely inbred.

Breeders are pairing Leus to Mosaics due to demand for lighter mosaics. The offspring if colored command a higher price ticket.




Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 12:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Judie

What then if one breedes a Leu to a Normal?

All of the offspring from above.... would be 100% Leu Het with 50% of their genetic makeup coming from the Normal Gray Gene Pool.

??????


I guess that would probably fall under the "exception of the rule" as well.;)
Posted By: Judie

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 01:36 AM

agree roflmao
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 03:12 AM

Well thats what I mean though, leu x leu if related distantly enough isn't any diffrent than breeders breeding 100% hets to leu's for white. Genetically its the same. With all the breeding out that is being done, the lines are getting farther and farther out. If no mind was paid to the color of the gliders, genetically they have the same make up.

Breeding 100% hets opposed to leu's doesn't offer any diversity... Or does it?
Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 06:13 PM

I'm watching this post to see if anyone answers matchmakermagic's question....

Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 06:20 PM

In my opinion leu to 100 het is still creating the same issues as breeding leu to leu. But not very many people share my opinion in that.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 06:25 PM

Like Judie and Guerita said, a 100% het from a leu crossed with a no-leu-background gray would provide new genes. Genetics can sort of self-repair minor faults along the way as long as they have unrelated, healthy genes to correct any gaps. The problem with inbreeding is that both sides of the family have gaps in the same genetic areas, so those areas get weaker and weaker and can't repair themselves.

Crossing a healthy, non-inbred gray (or other healthy, non-inbred, unrelated color) with a leu would provide new genetic information to help patch up some of a leu's potentially weak genes. The 100% hets from such a cross would in theory be safer to breed with a leu than a 100% het from two parent gliders both with leu in their backgrounds. Crossing them out even further would add even more fresh genetic repair material, which is why lower-percentage hets are even safer than that.

So it depends on the background of the 100% het you're talking about. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/29/08 10:56 PM

100% isn't the same as the actual Leucistic... Their dominant gene is obviously different. The Leucistic glider, is obviously white and the 100% het glider, is obviously not white.

In my experience, and I believe the same holds true for many other breeders out there.. You will prove a lower% het a lot quicker if he/she is paired with a Leucistic. When paired with another het, even if it is 100% het, it seems that proving the lower% het takes longer if the dominant gene isn't Leucistic. Does that make sense? It may take so long that you believe that the 25-66% het isn't a het at all.

Every "lower het" that I've kept, that has had time to be proven, has proven themselves as 100%. Recently I had 25% hets prove themselves as 100%'s.... and in doing so, FINALLY proved their mom as 100% too. I've only ever had their mom with lower percent hets, and never a Leucistic, and to this day, she hasn't ever had a leucistic baby.

Anyway.. I may be wrong.. but Twins-- one leucistic, and one 100% het-- do not carry the exact genetic makeup. Just like in humans... Twins, are not identical, unless they are IDENTICAL. =)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/30/08 12:32 AM

Bec, you are totally correct. A 100% leu het has 1 normal gene and 1 leu gene a leucistic has 2 leu genes. So, their genetic make up is different. But, their pedigrees can be the same. That means the same level of inbreeding...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/30/08 12:46 AM

Absolutely! I agree that regardless of 100% het or Leucistic, you still have make sure they aren't too closely related. That's the tricky part!

Posted By: itsasugarglider

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/30/08 03:33 AM

@_@


As hard as I try to understand all this... it slips right out.

It must be related to Biology.



And that is why I will leave the breeding to people who know what they're doing.

But I am curious about breeding leus to mosaics too. Even if I don't understand the answer.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/30/08 04:34 AM

Somehow we are straying off the topic of Leu to Mosaic Breeding. off_topic

Anyone going to ask or answer the question the poster was asking? thumb
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/30/08 04:42 AM

This topic has gotten away from its original question. All of the Mosaics that originally came out of the Dai Green line were already 100% het for Leucistic with Cheese being a Leu and Mac being a platinum mosaic. It has never been determined that the mosaic line originated from Leu gliders and if they did, they were several generations back to where we have no history on them. The original mosaics that were brought in from HM Lines when paired with 100% Leu's never produced Leus. The reason for breeding a Leu or Leu het to a mosaic is that the mosaic is dominate and the Leu, Leu het, or albino gene is recessive. If you are wanting more mosaics, you would breed to something recessive. I do have one pair that doesn't follow this rule at all. They have had five mosaics in a row and she is paired with a wfb 3.5 generation.

Tyler, I don't know anyone who has paired the mosaic to mosaic. Perhaps Priscilla has and that is the information you are drawing from. Please enlighten us because frankly, I don't know anyone that has done so and would love to hear more about that. confused
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 06/30/08 10:08 PM

You guys are right, I used the wrong term multiple times! lol. When I said "genetically" I was thinking lineages. Genetically "twins" are not the same when speaking of a leu and a 100% het. Its the lineages that would be identical, not the gliders! Sorry for going off topic, was originally just posting on the leu x leu is bad comment. smile
Posted By: gliderlover

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/04/08 01:50 PM

The only person that I have seen pair mosaic to mosaic was helen and that is where the sterility in the mosaics came from.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/04/08 02:20 PM

Was the sterilty due to Mosaic/Mosaic, or were the two mosaics that were bred together related, therefore THAT being the cause??
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/04/08 02:25 PM

Considering the sterility issues in the Helen Morano line of mosaics, I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to pair 2 gliders from that line together. Ever if the sterility has been 'bred out' of the gliders being paired, by pairing gliders with a sterile ancestor together, you are just upping the chances of reintroducing sterility. Also, I wouldn't want to pair gliders from non-sterile lines with sterile line gliders because you would be introducing sterility into healthy lines...

I have pulled all of my sterile line gliders from breeding and they are now pet only.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/04/08 06:31 PM

Hercules to Mother White?

At work again today and having majory internet problems/switching from one site to another. Anyhow, someone said they hadn't heard of mo/mo. When I was working on family tress I found this pair...

Hercules/mo to Mother White (or snow, I can't remember w/o switching back), and that line is not sterile.

I also saw another pairing of mos somehwere on there. Does anyone know anything about Hercules, I see there is no picture? Just wondering if this one is accurate.

I personally would not put a leu or leu het with a sterile line mosaic. I have one sterile mo, Astrid, her mom is a mo hand her dad is a leu. So I have made sure that she is not with any kind of leu het. There is no need to make more sterile lues. She has had 2 joeys, both have gone into non-breeding homes.




Posted By: Srlb

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/04/08 06:46 PM

You have to look up Shakespeares line once you go to the link Alicia has posted above
Posted By: Judie

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 05:45 AM

The Mosaics from the sterile line...

the gene for the sterility is Sex Linked and is passed to the females via their mothers. Meaning the females are the carriers and they pass the sterility to their male offspring and the daughers then are carriers.

Only a very small percentage of the males are capable of reproducing. When this happens.. now a new line is able to produce fertile male offspring because the Male is not sterile and His daughters will not be carriers of the sex linked trait.

As to where the trait of the sex linked gene comes from.... it is not known.

One is not able to breed Mosaic to Mosaic if both are from the Sterile Line. Why????? Because all of the males are sterile. roflmao
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 08:18 AM

Judie, even still, once the males from the sterile line are able to start producing, they come from a geneticly sterile background. Just because they can produce doesn't necessarily mean all the genetic info that causes the sterility in the first place has been bred out... I think breeding gliders out of that line is like waiting for a bomb to go off. Sooner or later, those genetic flaws are going to blow up in everybodies faces.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 09:39 AM

Quick question about sterile lines: if a female from a sterile produces a male and that boy then goes on to produce, does that make the female no longer sterile, or will her other boys possibly still be sterile?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 10:11 AM

Some females throw both sterile and non-sterile boys. So, sometimes, it's just luck of the draw. Also, some males may not be sterile, but they aren't able to produce as easily as a non-sterile line glider and may only have 1 or 2 offspring over their life time.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 11:00 AM

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me! smile

It's so sad that there are sterile mosaic lines. frown

Then again, I guess it's a blessing to those who want them as pets because then they don't have to sacrifice and arm and a leg to own one! dance
Posted By: gliderboy4life

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 04:45 PM

Ok Alicia let me feel you in on Hercules....

Mother White produced Hercules. Helen then bred Hercules back to mother white and got Snow White. There was no more inbreeding with Snow white so that is why she is a producing line.

The reason there is sterility is because of severe inbreeding not because of breeding mo/mo.

Hercules never bred here at priscillas and is now living in a great home with Kevan who works here. She absolutely adores him!!!

If you want to see pics of him he is the one pictured as a calico. Although Priscilla later found out it was only staining.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... - 07/05/08 06:58 PM

Thanks Tyler. I didn't think mo/mo caused sterility, but I don't know. And it was obvious it didn't in this situation but since someone said they didn't know mo/mo to breed, I knew it had happened in the past.
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