GliderCENTRAL

Concerning Colors and genetics

Posted By: Anonymous

Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/18/02 12:53 AM

I have had several emails lately concerning colors and the genetic traits of different colored gliders. I have been asked whether a normal marked glider bred with a glider of color can produce a glider of color. The answer to this question is 100% yes. 90% of our blonde gliders are produced in exactly this fashion. We have done it this way to eliminate inbreeding. There are lots of misconceptions regarding "het" for color and normal marked gliders. We have produced 2 blonde babies from a "het to blonde and a normal mate. The genetics of gliders is a fairly new field to most people. I do not claim to be a genetic expert of any kind - but I have first hand knowledge and experience to be able to state these claims. I hope this helps answer some of the questions that have been posed.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/18/02 05:58 AM

Glider Greetings:<p>What is "het"???<p> []images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/] <img src="graemlins/question.gif" border="0" alt="question" /> []images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/]
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/18/02 10:12 AM

Het is offspring produced by a mutation but is of normal color. May or may not carry the gene. <p>Proven Het...has been breed and has produced a mutation in an offspring<p>A normal when bred to a Het can produce a mutation provided the Het has the gene.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/18/02 01:28 PM

Let me see if I can clear up a few defenitions.<p>Mutation: A change in the DNA at a particular locus in an organism. A sudden change in genotype having no relation to the individual's ancestry.
Dominant gene: A gene that produces its effect whenever it is present in the genotype. (think of this as A)
Recessive gene: A gene that cannot produce an effect if the dominant gene is present. (think of this as a)
Homozygous: The two genes of a genotype are alike.
(Homozygous dominant would be AA and Homozygous recessive would be aa)
Heterozygous (het): the two genes in a genotype are not alike (think of this as Aa)<p>That being stated, One must remember that rarely... very rarely does one gene pair code for a specific trait in most advanced liveforms. Generally there are numerous genes that work together to create specific traits. <p>For now lets think of the color of gliders as being caused by one gene pair. (its not but for simplicity think of it this way.) Normal grey gliders may be Homozygous Dominant (AA) or Heterozygous (Aa). You won't know because the grey gene is the dominant gene so whenever it is there the animal is grey. Albino's are on the other end of the spectrum... they are completely homozygous recessive.( they only have the recessive genes aa) Now breeding a Homozygous dominant to a het cannot produce an albino. (AA x Aa) Now the offspring may be a heterozygous but will not exhibit anything but normal colors since the dominant gene is there. Homozygous recessives bred with hets will have a chance of getting homzygous recessives but you have to remember that if the dominant gene gets passed along then they will appear normal. So breeding 2 homozygous recessives (albino's) will produce a homozygous recessive offspring only.
Ok now for the fun part. Like I said earlier, very rarely does one gene pair code for a specific trait. So there may be 2,3,4 or more gene pairs that can code for color (for example AAAAAA would be homozygous dominant if only 3 gene pairs coded for color and homozygous recessive would be aaaaaa). Now here's the catcher, When you get into multiple genes coding like this you get various combinations. ie, blones, grey's with white faces, whites with black eyes... Horses are the best example of this. You can look at a palamino horses (Roy Rodgers horse Trigger was a palamino)They are all the same color but they tend to be different shades of gold. ie one horse may be AaAaAA while another horse from the same parents will be palamino but a lighter shade with AAaaAA. <p>Ok now the point of this entire genetic lesson.
All of the fascinating "new" colors are NOT mutations. They are the expression of recessive traits that have been there all along and the reason they aren't seen in the wild is Natural Selection. (in other words they are easily seen and devoured... the "strongest" or best adapted survive) Furthermore, remember that when referring to a "het" this individual has both dominant and recessive genes which could be passed on to offspring. Genetics in Theory is an exact science but Mother Nature likes to make it a Guessing game.<p>Now I'm done <img src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" border="0" alt="clap" /> <img src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" border="0" alt="clap" /> <p>BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/18/02 06:45 PM

Do you have pictures you could share of your blonde gliders?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/18/02 07:10 PM

Mike's page is www.sandmanssugargliders.com
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 12:39 AM

The genotype is the genetic composition of a feature. This can only be documented accurtely for mutational forms. The phenotype is the physical outward expression of a feature. The same phenotype may not result from the same genotype. <p>CC genotype looks like the same Cc because C is dominant to c. Such individuals will breed very differently and important to remember. <p>Homoozygous means purbreeding for a given genotype. CC and cc are both of this type. They can pass only one sort of gene.<p>Heterozygous refers to different, or non purebreeding. Cc is of this type. The individual could pass either a C or a c to its offspring.<p>A dominant gene can express itself in single or double dose.. In the former case, it will suppress and mask the presence of a recessive gene at the same locus. It is denoted by use of a capital C letter.<p>Now a recessive gene must be present in double dose before it can be expressed. It is denoted by lower case c.<p>Full color has the letter C.
It's alternative is no color, or albino. This is letter c, which indicates it is a recessive gene. <p>A CC parent can only pass a C gene, a cc only a c. Their combination could produce Cc. Such an individual could pass either a C or a c-not both. <p>It is the gene from the other parent would determine the genotype and phenotype of the offspring.<p>The principles of heredity, on which the science is based, apply to all animals.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 01:12 AM

My point exactly.
Thats the entire point I was trying to make in the simplest terms. Heterozygous animals (which contain a dominant and recessive gene) are not mutations. They are in simplest terms carriers of recessive genes. Yes you are correct a parent can only give 1/2 of its genetic makeup. I'm trying to present this information in the simplest terms for everyone. Therefore I limited my previous post to basics. After all not everyone on this board finds punnet squares and probabilities of geneotypic and phenotypic expression fascinating like you and I... I mean it took me 7 years and 2 degrees one of which is in Genetics/Animal Breeding. The biggest thing is proper use of genetic terms. I've noticed a lot of people using terms like mutation and het. interchangably. This tends to mislead and misinform.<p>BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 01:46 AM

Glider Greetings:<p>Got it !!<p>Thanks for the education.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 02:18 AM

Randy, if your interested in the principles of heredity, type a search for "basic mendelian genetics". This should link you to a few university sites that have good info on how it works.<p>BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 04:23 AM

For all of those who have asked for descriptions of and pictures of some of the different colors I have added a new page on my site to help try and explain all the different color displays as well as some pics THe link is at http://sandmanssugargliders.com/colours.html
<img src="graemlins/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="thumb" />
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 06:27 AM

Mike are you saying here a het with a blonde produced blonde and a het with a normal produced blonde?
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 07:36 AM

The white faced glider is bing linebred. Which means they are being inbred but at a lesser degree. It is a "closed" genetic pool but is wider and not so limiting as inbreeding. Breedings are usually cousin or further removed. This ia a slower way to breed for a specific trait but is also the safest for avoiding inherent problems.<p>Do not understand the genetics of white faced Blonde Het out of normal color and whited faced Blonde. Then being breed to a normal and thus producing a white faced blonde?<p>Wherezat? We could use a little help here........Please?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 12:54 PM

Color is a booger when it comes to genetics. For example there are 26 gene pairs coding for coat color in horses. Now for the fun part. Not only does heredity encompass dominant and recessive genes but genes can express co-dominance and semi-dominance. So even thought an animal may have a dominant gene with the presence of another gene you may get a blue roan (mixture of red, white and black hairs) instead of black (which is the dominant color in horses)or having a white flower and crossing it with a red flower and getting a pink floser. I wish that heredity was as simple as dominants and recessives but like everything else in life it isn't. Right now there's not much research information on glider genetics but as Judie said Heredity is the same for all animals.
Here's my line of thought and I could be wrong.
I think that sugar gliders have some sort of "dilution" factor not unlike that in horses. Which would explain why people are getting white faces gliders and other gliders with "high" white.
Now as far as blondes, platnums, cinnamons, etc etc. These would tend to be classified genotypically as heterozygous animals maybe with the dilution factor in varying consistancy ie one color exhibiting one dilution gene with a dominant,another color with 2 dilution genes and a recessive, you get the idea.
They aren't completely homozygous dominant (having all dominant genes) or Homozygous recessive (having only recessive genes). Now this does extend the genotypic reference of the Het term to encompass more than just the normal grey thats carrying a recessive{which you won't know from a Homozygous Dominant until you breed them). Most people in the horse world just tend refer to the animals by the phenotypic terms. If its got white and red hairs, its a red roan. If its black its a black. There's too many variations to try and refer to an animal by its genotypic nomenclature.
I know that if you check out the American Paint Horse Association (www.apha.com) they have a good resource link for color genetics. I'm pretty sure they still have a link to a study done at UC Davis concerning the dilution factors in horses.<p>BT
ps Judie, I had a prof that once defined "linebreeding" as inbreeding that works...<p>
[]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/] <p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Wherezat ]<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Wherezat ]<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Wherezat ]</p>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 02:56 PM

Just to keep updated I emailed UC Davis' Veterinary Genetics Laboritory specifically their exotic division for more research leads on sugar glider genetics.<p>BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 03:24 PM

So basically what mike is saying (a het w/ a normal can produce a blonde recessive?) meaning...the dominant gene exists but the blonde gene is showing in color because of the dilution factor? So the animal wouldnt be considered a dominant Homo (AA) it would be considered a recessive homo? (aa?) or would it be considered a het (Aa) showing the color trait because the genetic makeup deposited color on the hair shaft using a mixture of dominant gene and recessive to give the appearance of blonde (in different blonde color variances) being that the original color was grey but given the recessive gene it was diluted to any of the given variances of the blonde color? Please, I am highly into genetics but have no degree and am learning as I go, I know it is possible because I know Mike has a het for blonde and a normal paired and Mike has ended up with a blonde showing the color trait from a het/normal breeding. I do now completely understand with your descriptions in previous posts as I have been into genetics when breeding dogs/cats/horses for the past 16yrs. I hope I have it somewhat close to what your talking about as I have a het for blonde that I will be pairing with a normal and we shall see...I believe that this pair if given ample time can produce a blonde showing the trait, Mike has already proven that more than once. Thanks for all your expert knowledge on genetics...keep it coming I live for this stuff! Oh i will definately be interested in any research on the net or that u can email me as I love to learn all i can especially when it comes to the gliders <img src="graemlins/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="thumb" /> Thanks!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 03:43 PM

Yes, thats my theory. (I only say that because I've heard no one else say it.) Breeding palamino horses is one of the best examples because there has been a lot of research. Basically they would be heterozygous because they don't have all dominant or all recessive genes. The dilution factor is interesting because it really messes with the way things go. It only takes one gene with the dilution factor to change the color. ie if you breed a horse and want a buckskin or palamino then you want a horse with one dunfactor gene. If the horse has two dun factors then its a cremello. Its really confusing how things go with the dilution factor. I do have one question that I may have overlooked the answer. Has anyone gotten any grey gliders from a normal grey and blonde cross? If so this would lead me to believe that there is definately a dilution gene present and that there only need be one for the blonde color.(reason behind this is that parent's giving off only half of their genetic makup. The blonde gave the color gene from its makeup that didn't have the dilution factor.)
I don't want to sound like a know it all. I'm just very interested in this. I could be VERY wrong. I'm forming all of this on the research that has been done with horse color.<p>BT <img src="graemlins/multi.gif" border="0" alt="[blob]" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 05:07 AM

Yes Brian
I have produced the following diffrent glider colors
Ex. 1 If you pair a normal grey with a blonde you can and will get the following. Normal grey appering babies as well as blondes(similar to your last batch of babies with your 2 normal marked gliders that produced 1 albino and 1 normal marked)
Ex 2 I have produced blondes also from a possible het for blonde and a normal grey.
Ex 3 in progress 2 blondes together (have a glider PG but do not know the colors yet.
Ex 4 Het for blonde with a blonde, They produce both normals and blondes. However the percent of normals in this group is less<p>I am No genetic expert in the least bit. But I do have hands on experience in this area. It is truely fasinating []images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/]<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: HeyMikey ]</p>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 05:24 AM

Mike, have any of you het gliders been "odd" colored? Maybe white faced, lite grey color etc.
The reason I'm asking is because when one dilution gene is present in a horse it causes a palamino or dun color. When two are present it causes a Cremello which is basically a "blonde" horse.<p>BT
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 05:26 AM

Could it be....possible het for blonde was bred to a normal who unknowlingly had the blonde gene thus it was a het too?
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 05:39 AM

The coat color seems to varie as well as the white in the white faced glider. It appears to dilute out going into the the third generation from Cereal.<p>The coat color is darker and the white becomes more creamier (yellow).<p>Remember this is linebreeding of one normal to a white face each generation.<p>The white face of Mike appears to have a very strong impact in first and second generation. It is the third generation it starts to dilute.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 06:35 PM

I think the biggest problem with decyphering this information is the fact that we really don't know how many gene pairs code for color.
For example: Say the code for blonde is AABbcc Where AA is the homozygous dominant for grey but when the het for B is introduced along with the homo recessive for c it dominates the normal dominant grey and the animal is then some other color in this instance blonde.
I still think that the colors we tend to get are dominated by dilusion genes as well as some semi dominant genes... Ugh!!! back to step one. <img src="graemlins/help.gif" border="0" alt="help" />
BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 06:40 PM

Thats makes sense completely Judie...as Brian and I were just discussing....when u think of it in terms of horses....(i know gliders arent horses but its the best scenario we could come up with both understanding horses []images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/] ) with one dilution(sp?) factor you will get a palamino or dun. With 2 dilution factors you get a cremello...now this would explain why our blonde gliders have a creamier (more yellowish) underside than having the blonde on top and white on bottom. This would lead us to believe that 2 dilution factors are involved when producing this color. A cremello and blonde are primarily the same and we know to produce a cremello 2 dilution factors are needed. ( i hope i said this right...brian correct my errors if any...as i said sometimes i confuse myself..hehehe).... Oh what fun though...at least now with Mikes experience and brians, we have now a pretty good idea and at the same time we do have some proof with the outcome of mikes joeys. <img src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" border="0" alt="clap" /> <img src="graemlins/dance.gif" border="0" alt="dance" /> And when Rhett and Scarlett become mature we will have even more proof (if and) when I end up with a het that shows the color trait. <img src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" border="0" alt="[shrug]" /> I am just going to wait and see...it will however be a while for those two. So I will keep learning and listening.<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Sugarbeark ]</p>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 06:56 PM

Here's the thing thats gonna be interesting... What if Mike's blonde pair produce a grey!!! Thats gonna be wild and completely throw our "cremello" theory out! []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/] []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/]
BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 07:10 PM

yes.... now im desperately awaiting the outcome of that pairs baby!!! Ok set me straight here....I wonder what is the pairs would be considered then? are they aa? or Aa? Just to clear my head a little that would help me do some figuring. But now im wanting so badly to see what color this joey turns out to be. Cuz if its grey....that theory has a HUGE hole in it! <img src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" border="0" alt="[shrug]" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 07:24 PM

yep if their grey then There's something we weren't thinking about. It depends on what color the babies are. if their white they they would be homozygous recessive or for lack of better example aa. If they're grey then they would either be homozygous dominant AA or Heterozygous Aa. Now depending on how many gene pairs and codominance and semidominance factors plus factoring in the dilution factor the answer is 2. Oh wait that wasn't the question was it? []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/] []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/]
BT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 07:43 PM

Mike..can u clear things up a bit for us???<p>The blonde pair that have a joey in pouch, are all four grandparents blondes? <p>What color were moms parents?
What color were dads parents? <p>That would help tremendously in making sure our theory is gonna stand up. <p>Because if knowledge serves me right(and believe me it doesnt alot of the time) if both parents were a heterozygous showing the blonde trait...wouldnt that give ample room for having a heterozygous baby that carries the blonde gene but shows the normal grey color? And wouldnt that keep our theory in tact? <p>Ok does this make sense?
if mom and dad are aA= het showing blonde
and baby comes out Aa=het showing grey
or baby is like them aA=het showing blonde
then i theory still stands correct right?<p>mom=aA-het showing blonde
dad=aA-" "<p>baby can be either<p>/ aA-het showing blonde
/ Aa-het showing grey but carries blonde gene
/ AA-homo grey
/ aa-recessive homo showing blonde <p>Can u get a recessive homo from two het's? or is that not possible? Oh this can be confusing.<p>Ok i will shut up i could go on and on.
<img src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" border="0" alt="[shrug]" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 09:11 PM

just wanted to throw a wrench in the works. First of all, I think everyone realises that this is VERY simplified genetics. There could be many many many other factors at work here. I for one am living proof of weird recessive genes. For years, I believed that I could not possibly be the child of both of my parents, because they both have EXTREMELY BLUE eyes and I have very dark green, almost brown eyes. Come to find out, I have quite a bit of cherokee blood from my father's side and there is a recessive brown eye gene in that gene pool. so what is recessive in one gene pool is not always so in others. What if some blonde genes are actually dominant? This could just be a different mutation in one family of gliders. It will be interesting to find out what the two blondes produce. <img src="graemlins/read.gif" border="0" alt="read" />
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 10:42 PM

One of my whitefaced blondes is not cream on the tummy but white
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/19/02 11:24 PM

Mike, which one of your het parents produced a blonde when matched with a normal? What did the joey look like?
"Ex 2 I have produced blondes also from a possible het for blonde and a normal grey."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 12:07 AM

The het pair is Ceaser(het) and Jemima.. Produced a normal colored Joey and a blonde. I will take a picture of her and let you see her picture. We keep her for our breeding program.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 12:09 AM

You may also get to see what a blonde- blonde will produce with Judy she has a pair PG as well! We shall all soon see []images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/] <img src="graemlins/multi.gif" border="0" alt="[blob]" />
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 12:42 AM

Mike that is so cool
I would love to see it<p>Mike, have you put a blonde to a blonde yet?
ToandFro Gliders
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 01:38 AM

The problem with genetics is that most research and theory testing takes so long because you have to wait for gestation. I can't wait to see what a blonde blonde will produce. <img src="graemlins/multi.gif" border="0" alt="[blob]" /> <img src="graemlins/multi.gif" border="0" alt="[blob]" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/20/02 03:22 AM

Jemina ia out of a normal male and I do not have color for mother of this glider as my records indicate she was not owned. Do you know if normal or possible Het?

I know she was breed to your blonde Cereal and produced Pearl and Princess of which are both blondes.<p>Not sure if babies are in pouch but should have droped inside on Feb. 18. Too early to tell yet.<p>Breeding pair: Sandman and Sage<p> Father Blonde
Sandman Blonde
Mother Normal<p> Father Het for blonde
Sage Blonde
Mother Blonde<p>[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Judie ]</p>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/21/02 02:35 AM

Actually, this Jemima is not from Arizona. She is a glider that we purchased from an individual who no longer wanted her. I loved the name, and couldn't think of anything new and unusual :-) so used it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/21/02 02:58 PM

What is the difference between a champagne and a platinum glider?
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/27/02 08:18 AM

Ok.....Laura contacted me in an email. The breeding of Ceasar who is het to blonde and Jemima is also het to blonde. They produced a blonde baby named Cleo.

Because of breeding with two hets together I am guessing the gene for producing them is still recessive and to produce blonde from hets for blonde.......one needs two hets of the blonde to produce blonde.

And baby of Sandman and Sage........is definately in pouch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Should be oop. sometime in the first or second week of April.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/27/02 06:47 PM

Congratulations!! I bet you can't wait to see the baby come out <img border="0" alt="clap" title="" src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/01/02 08:06 PM

Thought I would update this thread as to the pairing of 2 pairs of white faced blondes.

Both white faced pairs(each) produced....a white faced baby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/01/02 09:53 PM

How cool is that !!!!
Congrats!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/01/02 10:40 PM

HEYMIKEY....can I use your site as a link on my site for the colors of gliders??? Ive been looking for a site so that I can put a link on my site about color mutations???

Thanks, I always like to ask before using something of someone else's
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/01/02 11:17 PM

Brian...

Can you help with the genetic code here with the offspring. Sandman and Sage...if you go back a little into this thread the color lineage is mapped out. Their offspring is a blonde.

Now, Fro and Lilly are the other pair...same exact breeding and coloring. Their offspring is a blonde also.

Have three generations here so, is it possible to work out a code?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/01/02 11:41 PM

Let me read up on the previous posts and I'll see what I can figure out.

<small>[ 10-01-2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Wherezat ]</small>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/02/02 10:53 PM

Can a leucistic paired with a normal colored glider have and leucistic offspring? <img border="0" alt="dunno" title="" src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/03/02 04:42 AM

Now where did everyone go? Hey Mikey? Brian? Sugarbeark? Joanna? <img border="0" alt="help" title="" src="graemlins/help.gif" />

<small>[ 10-03-2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/03/02 12:44 PM

A leucistic and a gray can have a leucistic baby if the gray is het for leucistic and gives that gene to the offsrping.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/04/02 04:10 AM

Otherwords, both parents need to have the gene present to produce the color white.

Now my question was...with the blondes...How many generations of breeding till blondes produce all blonde babies?

1st generation...grandparents...1 blonde+1 normal, mated to 1 blonde+1 het for blonde

2nd generation...parents....1 blonde+1blonde

3rd generation....1 blonde

Now, the breeding above was with done with two pairs of wfb. Same genetic coding should exist as the parents are related. The females in the second breeding are sisters and the males are siblings.

My question is...if the 3rd generation offspring are bred to say....another wfb who is third generation wf...then the 4th generation offspring that would be produced should be 100% wf blonde? Otherwords...how many generations till the line is consided pure for that specific color?

I am thinking that anything past third generation is too far removed so thus does not count.

<small>[ 10-04-2002, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/05/02 04:29 AM

I did want to add that there are two types of blondes. There are blondes that are actually more of a Kacki brown with the CREAM face or the WHITE faced and there are those that are gray with the white face (no cream FACE OR CHEST)and no brown(GRAY ONLY). Now this is strange because my two white faced blondes (both blondes, one with cream tummy and one with white tummy) both produced a white faced gray male. The color of the male could change with age. It is my understanding that with 6 weeks of being weaned the gray joey has turned brown. This is the case with Frodo He was Light gray with white faced and white tummy and at a year now he is kaki brown with a white face, white tummy. His offspring Seth on Mother's back who Judie owns now is a gray with white faced, no cream chest(now turned brown on top as mentioned above) The parent female was a brown normal instead of a gray. Frodo paired with Lily who are now both Blonde white faced(Frodo having white chest and Lily having cream chest, both with Kacki coats produced a white faced gray with a white chest, not cream (very similar to Seth). If Daffi changes, as Frodo did we will see. So far, both of the offspring have been white chested and brown with Frodo being the Dad. Judie, on the other hand has both cream chested parents paired and the offspring was cream chested and kacki brown. My conclusion so far is that if the parent has a white chest vereses a cream chest the offspring will be gray, turning brown if the glider grandparent originates from Cereal. I have only had two litters from Frodo and he has a white chest so Mike should comment here. I know up until Frodo was born, Mike had just had Cream chested blondes with kacki coats. He does have on his web site that the white faced blondes can have gray coats too. This statement could have been based on Frodo who had a gray coat at birth. Since then I know that Mike has had other light grays like Frodo, but don't know who purchased those and don't know the offspring outcome of those gliders. Noel, the brown mother paired with Frodo is pregant with two and should be out sometimes in Oct. It will be interesting to see if her offspring will also be gray with the white chest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ToandFro Gliders

<small>[ 10-21-2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Sheila ]</small>
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/05/02 01:33 PM

Seith is Kacki colored with the white face. Sydney is going to be Kacki colored with the whate face also.

As far as I know....this particuliar line of gliders that have been produced out of Cereal...all have the Kacki color fur and with white or cream colored faces. Babies are very light grey when born...but within a few months gradually change to the Kacki body color.

The white faced grey you mentioned...are not line bred....just accidently poping up in normal gliders. I am thinking they will eventually change color and the top body color will be more like the tradiotial normal...grey/brown.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/11/02 03:52 PM

Wherzat Where did you go to college to get your genetics degree. I am a zoology student at Oswego and am looking for a good college to attend to get a masters in genetics. Also I have not yet taken genetics but I am very studied. I breed colored mice as well as gliders. I am breeding mice because they breed fast and it is easy to get colors. I want to know what equiptment is necessary, and where to get the equiptment to map the genes of sugar gliders? I would love to see a side by side comparison of genes of many albinos, compared to many normals. I am very into genetics and breeding. Could you email me the information. Ushuaia_mail@yahoo.com. I would love to see more research done in this area. From what I have seen on various shows about genetics the process of obtaining a genetic buleprint is not very complicated. I have pictures of various color varieties from verious people that gave me permission to use them. They can be found here:

http://honeyglider.homestead.com/variations.html
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/21/02 02:35 AM

Okay, now I have a question. Boo, who is Blondie and Dagwood's daughter, was born with a white-face, and then it turned to a normal gray's color. Would she be a het for blonde? Casper, Boo's brother, is white-faced with a white belly, and a white stripe going up the underside of his tail all the way to the tip.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/21/02 06:03 AM

What makes it more time consuming breeding gliders for color? They only produce on or two babies per litter. With mice and other smaller animales who produce large litters...this helps in determining the genetic outcome quicker... as it appears to be a numbers game with the percentages. <img border="0" alt="roflmao" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

As for the offspring produced by the WFBlondie and Boo...if baby has the bar under the ear..then it would be considered a possible het for blonde. No bar..then it is a white face blonde.

<small>[ 10-21-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/22/02 04:46 AM

Question Judie?
Is there any chance that this Baby Boo may not have a het Gene at all as one parent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> is normal? What percentage would it be normal?

<small>[ 10-21-2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Sheila ]</small>
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 10/21/02 08:44 PM

From what I understand of hets....25% can be normal and not be a gene carrier. 50% although they look normal...can be a gene carrier. And 25% there is a visible color change.

Gosh....where are some of the others who are more knowledgable? I am just learning too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ 10-21-2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/10/03 07:30 AM

How would you find out how many gene pairs a glider has? Watching cop shows they do a DNA test to determine if blood is of the type of the person in question. Would doing a DNA test on a series of gliders that are Leucistic for example, give any hint as to what genes are for the leucistic color? If you did a comparison to a normal colored glider. Also to make an interesting note, I have seen a few white tip pictures, but I have recently come across a white tail. The tail is all white from base to tip. Could this be an extreme blending of the white tip gene? I have noticed that the actual white tips on sugar gliders vary in length but it has always included some black and did not go beyond the area where the black tip is normally. Does any body have an idea if this is an example of blending?

Ushuaia
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/11/03 03:52 AM

The all white tail is the Leucistic and platinum bred together.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/11/03 05:54 AM

Wow that is amazing. How could essentially two all white gliders produce a normal color with the exception of the tail. Do you have a picture I could use for my variation page? I would credit the owner as I have with the other submissions. What would happen if you bred this with a cinnamon? Hmmm might be interesting.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/11/03 08:43 AM

The picture does not belong to me and I don't think they want to publish it.
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/11/03 08:50 AM

The platinum is not pure white. It has normal gene in it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 02/12/03 06:34 AM

Would you ask them about it, or do you know of someone else that has a white tail picture that I could get permission to use? I would like to have a complete variations page.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 09:44 AM

Let's see...this thread needs some updating...

Sandman and Sage(both white faced blondes) have produced two offspring with one baby each time...resulting with white face babies.

Fro and Lilly(both white faced blondes)owned by Sheila, have had two litters...resulting in two white faced babies the first time and then two normal colored babies the second time around.

Now these two pairs of wfblondes have the same mother and father. Otherwords...the lineage is exactly the same on paper. Does this then throw out the dilution theory due to one pair having a set of Hets? Leaving this to the theory we are dealing with a dominant and recessive gene?

What I see of these breeding is...Blonde to normal is 25% blondes, 50% normal, and 25%hets for wfblondes.

With two blondes paired together 50% blondes,25% normal and 25% hets for wf blondes. With a second generation of blondes to blondes the percentages of wfblonde offspring should increase.

Not sure on the percentages for blonde paired with het who is proven for wfb. Since Mike has done several breedings using them...perhaps he could give up the percentages. But it is my guess the percentages are the same as a normal paired with a wfblonde. But only with a proven wfblonde het.

I have purchased a couple of other white faced blondes who were grey with white faces and not out of the Cereal line...and guess what...their back color is changing now to a light carmel color. Since these youngsters are less than six months oop. it is still possible for them to turn the carmel color like those of the Cereal line. However, they are very white in the face and not cream colored. One of these gliders is paired with a glider out of Cereal lineage...the other one...I am still looking for a wf grey male to breed with. By late fall...we should be able to see some of the results as to color out of these pairs.

Well that is all I can come up with for now. If anyone else can come up with some information that would help or clear up something I have misunderstood...please feel free to post. Please remember I am learning like everyone one else and I do not profess to be an expert.

As for the Leucestics....well work is in progress. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 02:46 PM

Judie~
So it IS possible to have a regular grey glider with a white face? Do you have a picture of one? I really believe that one of my new male joeys has a white face, or it just looks light compared to the others. Do the white faced grey gliders have the little black markings under their ears? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 03:20 PM

A glider can have a white face or whiter face, but not be considered a "white faced Blonde" or a white faced Normal" Most of the "white faced normals" turn a blonder color as they get older but there are varying degress of the back color. The white face on a "white-faced blonde" or a "white-faced Normal" have no bar under the ear at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 03:29 PM

How do you know if you have a het or a normal grey gene? After reading all this I am still confused. Not very good at genetics, but it interest me so much. Or is it just a guess? Cause if the het looks like a normal grey how do you know it has the gene in them?
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 03:46 PM

Ok, let me go back and refresh Judie here.
Frodo and Lily (both Blondes) have had two sets of joeys.
The first was blonde, the second was a pair one blonde and one het. The total is 3 joeys. (Judie's memory has failed her since she had her 60th this week). The chance that a joey that is normal color coming from these two is greater than a normal color joey coming from parents who are blonde paired with a normal. There is still a lot unknown about the blonde gene. With a Leucistic, when a Leucistic paired with a normal - the offspring is 100% het. Take two 100% hets and put them together and you have a 25% chance that the offspring is not het at all, 25% that the offspring will be white, 50% chance that the offspring will be het. If this same principal applied to blondes that would mean every offspring coming out of One Blonde parent and One normal parent would be 100% het. and so on and so on... Don't know if the blonde gene is as dominate or not. Also, in the Leucistic, it is coming from two het parents. With the blonde, it comes from one or two blonde parents depending on the blonde itself.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 04:50 PM

OK, my little boy must just have a really light face.

BTW~Sheila and Judie you both have gorgeous gliders! I want to get a mutation one of these days... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 04/26/03 07:23 PM

Ooops! I forgot Seth was out of Fro and Noel and not Lilly. But the point was...two blondes, first generation are able to produce normal color. My guess is....it will take four generations of breeding white faces together till they are able to produce wfblondes 100% of the time.

I tried to keep the Leucestic gene seperated from the decussion as it appears to be totally different.

A wf blonde paired with a normal has a 25% chance of producing a wf offspring the first generation.

With the Leucestic...white parent paired with a normal produces all normal colored babies. This then suggests(I think)that the gene that produces white must be present in both parents in order for us to see the color. Now with these normal looking offspring that were produced from this breeding...I think it depends on how the genes line up as to who will be able to produce white, platninum, mosaic when bred to another glider who also possess the leucestic gene. Guess what I am trying to say...not all of the hets from the first generation will be able to produce a variance in color. Even though this first generation are called Hets...they have yet to prove wither their genetic coding will produce anything but normal color. So, with first generation Hets...there should be a 60% chance that they should be able to produce color when bred to another glider who also has the leucestic gene. Thus...it is necessary to retain as many of the hets produced if possible. On the other hand...40% will not possess the gene to produce white. I think it is the placement of how the genes line up in the code that determines this.

Visiable results are rather slow when breeding gliders as they only produce one or two babies every four or six months. If we were breeding an animal who produces a dozen babies at one time and who could produce six litters a year...progress would be seen much sooner.

Wish someone else who was more experienced with genetics could help us out here. I think I understand how this works...but not sure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 05/01/03 06:55 PM

I know that this is kinda off topic....but I was just curious as to what the price ranges were for all of these different color variations???
Posted By: Judie

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 05/02/03 05:44 AM

Well, I have done something genetically different. Little Sesamie who is a BEW....has a joey in pouch. Father is Sandman...white face blonde. So, now...if this baby survives to oop. date which is around July 4th or so...baby will more than likely be a het for leucestic or het for white face blonde. It would be interesting to see a white faced blonde produced out of this breeding but do not think it will happen.

Anyway, baby is in the oven....so to speak. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And personally I do not care if the joey comes out Purple or Green or any other color....just so it it healthy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Concerning Colors and genetics - 05/02/03 07:10 PM

We are all glad about this for Judie's sake. It takes a long time to get these programs going and Sesamie is only 8 months old. She is such a flirt though - calling men out of their cages like some kind of hussy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
© 2024 GliderCENTRAL