GliderCENTRAL

URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered

Posted By: ValkyrieMome

URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 04:36 AM

In †The Thread About Platinum Mosaics some genetic problems were discussed from some of the lines.

I want to put this out there ... because there are A LOT of glider affected, and breeders need to know. This genetic problem has been known about for some time, and while the breeders who discovered it worried about the implications, the problem has been spreading. Another big concern I will discuss later.

There is a genetic defect in the Frodo line. The defect is a recessive trait. Which means, that it is "bred out" the same way a Leu line is bred out. Therefore, there are ACTIVELY BREEDING GLIDERS who are now 100% het for carrying this genetic defect, and 50% het, and .... etc.

The "Wiggle Gene" manifests itself as a clear neurological problem. Joeys born with this defect are obvious from the minute they are OOP. They can not be still. They cannot control their body movements very well. They are able to walk, and eat, but it takes them extra time to learn to take care of themselves.

Because there have been enough joeys born with this trait, we are now able to CLEARLY trace the lines, the known 100% hets and most (NOT ALL) of the 50% hets. It is not possible to know how many other hets are out there and have not "proven out" yet.

I URGE you to NOT cross Frodo line gliders. If you have a glider on this list, it is a 100% carrier, or there is a 50% chance it is a carrier. If you have JOEYS from these gliders, they also could carry this genetic defect, and pass it on, the same way the Leu gene is passed on in hets.

FRODO is the original carrier.

Frodo and Noel produced Alex, who produced Beatrice.

Frodo and Lily produced Dante.

Dante and Beatrice bred and produced 4 joeys, 3 of them with this "wiggle gene" defect. Shortly after the 4th joey was born healthy, Beatrice was sold off and repaired, and we don't really know for certain what happened to Beatrice after that. The healthy joey was paired with Dante, who was neutered.

Here is a video of two of Dante and Beatrice's joeys. Dimitri, and his twin, Teagan, both whom DO have the "wiggle gene."


The KNOWN 100% carriers of this gene are:
Frodo † † Boogie † † Beatrice † † Dante † † Violet † † Calypso † † Mallory † † Gardenia † † Poppins † † Gilthanas † † Precious † † Smidgin † † Kitty

Here is a video of Shimmer, who expresses this gene:

This video was removed at the request of the breeder, who wishes to remain anonymous

These two joeys were just OOP last week:
This video was removed at the request of the breeder, who wishes to remain anonymous

Each time one of these gliders breeds, it's joeys become 50% hets for this genetic flaw.

The KNOWN 50% het carriers of this gene are:
Bailey † † Bijou † † Cookie † † Daffi † † Daisy † † Ferdinand † † †Geppetto † † Guisseppe † † Heather † † Hermoine † † Jamie † † Kala † † Mechache † † Memrie † † Nemo † † Seth † † Suga † † Sunshine † † Xander † † Zookie † † Dylan † † Hannah † † Josh † † Miss Molly † † Panzy † † Aurora † † †Charolette † † Elfie † † Forrest † † Matklin † † Mumsy † † Willow † † China Doll † † Angelica † † Apple AL † † Aster † † Casanova † † Lily (E.S.G.) † † Caspian † † Cheezer † † Ivy † † Macaroni † † Nila † † Romeo † † Rosie † † Tera † † Carlisle † † Bright † † Fancy † † Jewel † † Lil' Dude † † Loli † † Lukas † † Maddie † † Molly † † Pop † † Sharpie † † Stitch † † Bailey (tsp sugar) † † Cleopatra † † Holly † † Tipkins

And those are only the ones recorded in the Pet Glider Database - there may be more.

In fact, this genetic flaw has been "bred out" almost more effectively than the leu gene! There are those who have thought that the gene could only be passed when in-breeding occurs. But you can clearly see how quickly the "hets" are producing. This gene started with grey and white faced lines, but has now possibly contaminated the leucistic, mosaic, and cremino lines. This gene has been proven to successfully pass quietly over 6 generations before surfacing again when two carriers were placed together.

ALL BREEDERS: please look at your lineages. If any of the gliders above appear in your lineages, you must think VERY CAREFULLY about breeding that glider.

Now for the other big concern that those who have traced this gene have: That as a result of this research, gliders will be split from their bonded mates and be bred to others. I personally would encourage breeders to neuter their gliders that are higher hets for this gene, so as to avoid passing it on further. My wish would be for current pair bonds to be allowed to live out their lives together as non-breeding pairs. I realize every breeder will have to make their own ethical decisions.

PLEASE do not turn this thread into finger pointing and name calling and breeder bashing. There is NO USE pointing fingers now. The important thing is to stop the spread of this genetic flaw in gliders, so that our beloved gliders do not develop the same genetic curses as Waardenburg's Syndrome in ferrets, or Wobbly Headed-Syndrome in hedgehogs. We breeders CAN STOP the progression of this now, simply by checking lineages, and retiring some breeding pairs.

You can see all the currently known videos of the joeys expressing this gene here:
Wiggle Album
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 05:20 AM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

The KNOWN 100% carriers of this gene are:
Frodo † † Boogie † † Beatrice † † Dante † † Violet † † Calypso † † Mallory † † Gardenia † † Poppins † † Gilthanas † † Precious † † Smidgin † † Kitty


The KNOWN 50% het carriers of this gene are:
Bailey † † Bijou † † Cookie † † Daffi † † Daisy † † Ferdinand † † †Geppetto † † Guisseppe † † Heather † † Hermoine † † Jamie † † Kala † † Mechache † † Memrie † † Nemo † † Seth † † Suga † † Sunshine † † Xander † † Zookie † † Dylan † † Hannah † † Josh † † Miss Molly † † Panzy † † Aurora † † †Charolette † † Elfie † † Forrest † † Matklin † † Mumsy † † Willow † † China Doll † † Angelica † † Apple AL † † Aster † † Casanova † † Lily (E.S.G.) † † Caspian † † Cheezer † † Ivy † † Macaroni † † Nila † † Romeo † † Rosie † † Tera † † Carlisle † † Bright † † Fancy † † Jewel † † Lil' Dude † † Loli † † Lukas † † Maddie † † Molly † † Pop † † Sharpie † † Stitch † † Bailey (tsp sugar) † † Cleopatra † † Holly † † Tipkins



SO ARE GLIDERS ON THESE LISTS STILL PRODUCING BABIES??????? Breeders are breeding these gliders knowing the possibility of a genetic defect? WHY? How long have people known this? I have read everything on here for two years and never heard of the lines been effected genetically? I have seen Dante videos but I thought that he was a direct cause and effect of inbreeding.......This is heartbreaking!!! I am confused?!?!?!?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 05:39 AM

I don't know. I wish I did.

I hope people with more genetic knowledge than I have will come out of the woodwork and discuss this! I have seen the evidence, and I've traced some of the lines through the Pet Glider Database.

I know I'm going to get a lot of grief for this, because there are people who are still breeding, who feel that if they just "tell the people that buy their joeys" then everything will be ok. But - they are creating hets. Who are creating hets. And, you may talk to whomever buys your joeys - but does THAT breeder? We already know that after a generation or two, people have started selling mosaics not mentioning they are sterile line! I'm sure not deliberately - but you can't control the people who buy your joeys joeys!!

This has been known about for at least 2 years - that I am aware. Yet, the people directly involved have repeatedly refused to come forward and post information.

I've been accused - by one of the breeders involved - of posting this merely to get attention or to start drama. I've been accused of taking people's personal information and posting it.

I'm not posting about someone's divorce, or problems with their work or financial situation. I'm posting about GLIDERS with GENETIC defects - which have been known about for years, and hushed up. If I'm speaking out of turn, then it is because the people directly involved have been given every opportunity to be honest, and yet have refused.

I'm VERY VERY sorry that this has made people uncomfortable and angry. I did not see another way, and my sense of right and wrong just could NOT allow this to carry on. Especially since two more joeys were OOP last week.
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 05:45 AM

I'm confused as to why people are continuing to breed gliders with known genetic "flaws"? Why try and keep it secret unless these breeders know that they're doing wrong?
Posted By: dizzyblue

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 05:52 AM

I sad toward the Breeder who wants to not be mentioned. So they are breeding these poor babies...I'm upset at that idea...Sometimes I think gliders bring out the very best and the very worst in people.
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 05:55 AM

I have attempted to look at my gliders lineages and from what I can tell the breeders I have anyways are not effected lines. But who knows I am fairly new and frankly their are a-lot of gliders on that list!!!!!!!! It would have been much easier as a new breeder as myself to just avoid the effected lines. But now I already have my breeding pairs. I will look over their lineage better tomorrow honestly THIS MAKES ME SICK! I come here to learn all I can and to learn to do all the right things. The advice I have been given I have followed it hopes to have happy healthy gliders to produce sweet healthy babies! I checked my COI's made sure they were low and that the offspring would be even lower! I bought a WFB to breed out my Lue because the big hoopla of the COI's going up in Leu lines.

Why would anyone be UPSET on a site that states in it's title For The Good Of The Glider!!!!!!!! WATCH THE VIDEOS<<<<<<does that look like it is good for the glider! I want no part of THAT! That is painful to watch and just SAD!

Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 06:06 AM

I would like to say - because this is the Frodo line, it could affect A LOT of gliders! There are MANY gliders with Frodo in their lineage.

Think of it exactly the way you think of the leu gene - but this is more of the "anti-leu gene." If a glider is known to be a carrier, then it is known to be producing hets.

If a glider is a possible het - then the farther away from the actual carrier they get, the lower the het percentage.

If you have a glider that, due to that list, is a high percentage het - you need to consider taking that glider out of your breeding program.

If you have a glider that is a low percentage het, then it is more a personal choice then an ethical decision - in my opinion. If you are breeding a low percentage het to a glider without Frodo in the lineage, I'm not certain that would be a problem. Because, honestly - there are a LOT of gliders with Frodo in their lineage, and we can't take them ALL out of breeding!

I honestly can't understand recessive genetics. I get easily confused - that's why I've chosen NOT to include leus in my breeding program. BUT - I am also checking my lines carefully, and quite possibly some gliders will be neutered!

How to calculate:
Start at the nearest CONFIRMED carrier of the gene, from the above list. This is 100%. For each generation, half the percentage, just like with leu or albino. A glider 5 generations from Frodo would only have a 3.125% chance of carrying the gene. However, a grandchild of Frodo would have a 25% chance of carrying the gene. I would advise that anything 12.5% or higher be retired, I would greatly urge anyone with a 50% het or higher to retire the glider immediately.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 06:53 AM

Alden, thank you for bringing this up. I do not see why a discussion like this would upset anyone we are all glider lovers here. I'm sure this thread will be full of great information.

This is why I will probably never breed. There is so much more that goes into it besides putting two good looking gliders together. I applaud those who do take the time and effort into breeding so that I may in turn enjoy happy healthy gliders.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:17 AM

"THERE IS NO NEED FOR MASS HYSTERIA, IN EVERY CASE THAT IS KNOWN THERE HAS BEEN DIRECT INBREEDING"

Beth....I hope you are proud of yourself! Is your vendetta against one person that important? Really?

Alden why are you involved in a thread like this? You don't understand the depth of what you have posted....Seems you have some thinking to do yourself wink

Do you guys even realize most of the gliders you have mentioned are dead or too old to breed? Further more this is not new....Not breaking news as you would like to make people think. Beth has spoke of her babies to anyone who would listen for years. Video after video and link after link to show the relation of the parents. So how is this all of a sudden reason for panic?

If the descendants of every glider mentioned was to be pulled from a breeding program over 75% of our gliders would have to separated and neutered. Just how many gliders are there out there that are WF or have WF in their lineage? Think about this....there are under 10 wiggle babies in existence. Every single one of those has been bred to closely, the most recent occurrence of wiggle baby was produced by breeding gliders where the father is also the grand father on the bottom. I have been following the occurrence of this gene for several years now as I have a baby here with that disorder, he was born out a gray pair I rescued and the joeys were in pouch when she got here. Alden I'm sure you remember him...it is Hook who I speak of.

To give you all some history the original WF gliders were Cereal, Pearl, Princess from this line. Their offspring are Grandy Gomez, Angel Face, Ceaser, Cleo, Doc, Frodo, Gabby, Gratiano, Gussy, Princess, Sandman, Ariyanna, Blondie, Godfrey, Lily and Sage. I may have missed a few. That would affect most of our gliders in existence today.

This is exactly why I have stressed over and over the workings of genetics, I have tried to educate as many people as I could about COI's. If you are breeding youhave the responsibility to know the issues in the lines, you also have the responsibility to understand genetics enough to be able safely pair your gliders. So the buck stops here...own up the responsibility you have assumed upon deciding to breed. Breeding entails a lot more than putting gliders together!
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: cryingoutloud37
I have attempted to look at my gliders lineages and from what I can tell the breeders I have anyways are not effected lines.



I was wrong shakehead Two of my three pairs are affected by this!!!! This makes me SAD! One of my affected females is pregnant! < This could of been avoided.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:32 AM

Adri, I've seen this thread and this was not my doing. I have a great deal to lose if I am part of this.

My "vendetta" against one person in particular has long past. I still don't like her or her practices, but this far more than me. I don't breed this gene. I am saddened that it has spread as far as it has, but the person that started it all cannot do anything to change what already is. It looks to me like this thread was posted simply to inform the public of a very real issue in popular bloodlines. So, I don't like someone...I have been stifled every time I've tried to do the responsible thing and tell people that this gene should be considered in their pairings. Tell me how it's ok that people are breeding this gene further into lines, without ever being given a chance to know any better, simply to protect one person's reputation?

I think you must have been mixed up the last time we conversed. I will PM you.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:40 AM

Adri - how could people KNOW the genetics if it was hushed up or dismissed? Beth has been telling everyone, yes - but she's also been told "it isn't an issue" and "it only happens with inbreeding." That is NOT the case.

I didn't know until today that Hook had the disorder. I thought he was blind. Poor sweet little guy. I'm glad you're giving him a good home.

NO - this SHOULD NOT cause mass hysteria. But it IS, as you say, Adri, one more thing people should be aware of when choosing their pairings. You can't be careful about what you don't know exists!

This is NOT about a vendetta. This is about breeders thinking they can do "damage control" by telling their customers if a pairing is "ok" or not.

Since posting this thread, I've been PMed by many people. Many of them have gliders with a 3.125% possibility of having this disorder. But at least one person had gliders from TWO different breeders, both are het for this disorder, and had no clue. This person was about to put together a WF with a 25% chance of having this disorder with AN UNRELATED (at least as far as COI goes) glider who has a 12.5% chance of having this disorder. Is that OK?

Why am I involved in a thread like this? Hmmm. That is part of the argument that one of the breeders involved in this gave me. Alden, just butt out so we can hush it up as we have since 2005. Why am I involved? Because I also have Frodo line gliders.

I've known of Beth's little gliders for years. They are adorable and the videos break my heart. However - I had NO IDEA that it affected me until more joeys were born that had the disorder, and it was traced more accurately.

The gliders are too old to breed? Dead or retired? It isn't about THEM, it is about their lineages! If someone is choosing to breed- shouldn't they know the ENTIRE picture?

Just a thought - all the joeys that are pulled while they are IP, or cannibalized. We'll never know the reasons, really. But what if some of those were because of THIS? This genetic defect which can be PREVENTED if you know it is in the lineage!

edited to add: DON'T PANIC! JUST BE INFORMED! IT WILL ALL BE OK, REALLY!

Also edited to add: Adri - why did you call out Beth? This isn't because of her.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:49 AM

Remember not everyone has been around gliders for years or has that kind of experience so when we hear about the wiggle gene for the first time I think the natural response would be to panic. While this may be old news to some its quite new to others. I don't see why we won't be able to have an honest polite discussion about this for people who are new.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 08:39 AM

No Beth at the time we conversed I was well aware of the breeder you referenced and glider in question. The problem here is you have now someone who understands genetics in the same way I understand nuclear physics posting this "warning" and making recommendations that make absolutely NO SENSE.

Alden, YOU have gliders from these lines!!! We ALL do, these gliders are in everybody's lineage. Yet you are recommending people to neuter and separate gliders? This upsets me beyond belief, the last time a thread similar to this was started it caused more heartbreak and distress than I care to remember! I spent months talking to people after that and reassuring them that they had no reason to worry. Now we have this...I am all for education I spend countless hours trying to do just that. But really think about the magnitude of this post it affects just about every glider of every color that has WF of any of the above mentioned gliders is a possible carrier. If this was as severe as it has been made out to be we would have a much much larger number of "wiggle babies" born everyday.

I truly feel IF we are diligent in our breeding programs this will continue a non issue, other than something to watch for when pairing our gliders. Please don't think I am trying to discredit anyone I am not...BUT this has only surfaced when inbreeding has occurred.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 08:43 AM

Adri, again, I don't "have" anyone doing anything. I am a passive observer. I would not even be posting on this thread were it not for your mention of my name. I had nothing to do with this thread, I gave up trying to publicly raise awareness about this gene quite a while ago.

Edit: I don't see where Alden says that anyone should separate gliders, and from what I see, it sounds like she is only giving information, not demanding that anyone be neutered. I don't condone the separation of any pairs because of a genetic flaw, and neutering ANY glider is up to the breeders themselves.

Edit again: Adri and I just had a fantastic 2 1/2 hour conversation on the phone, Adri is a really great lady. I think we got a lot of things cleared up. We may not agree 100% but she works toward the same goal as so many of us do. I really enjoyed chatting with you, Adri!
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Adri

This is exactly why I have stressed over and over the workings of genetics, I have tried to educate as many people as I could about COI's. If you are breeding youhave the responsibility to know the issues in the lines, you also have the responsibility to understand genetics enough to be able safely pair your gliders. So the buck stops here...own up the responsibility you have assumed upon deciding to breed. Breeding entails a lot more than putting gliders together!

As a new breeder, I have done my best to be responsible! I asked a very knowledgeable friend of mine to check the COI of the babies I bought, long before I ever contacted the breeders to make an offer. Checking the COI has nothing to do with not having the information of certain gliders having this 'wiggle gene'. My gliders' COI is excellent with the pairings I want. BUT, without the information available on the 'wiggle gene', neither she nor I knew to ask about it.

Now I'm upset because in looking over this list, I'm wondering if one of MY gliders has one of the above mentioned gliders in its' lineage. I've turned to my friend again, to now check for this gene in gliders I've already purchased. Did I just spend almost $1000 for a glider I now can't breed? Sure, I'll love him/her just as much if s/he has to be a pet only glider. But I would have paid a pet only price to begin with.

Until now, this information wasn't available to me, to be able to make an informed decision. Thank you Alden, for helping the rest of us know what to look out for. I sure didn't know before.

Those videos are absolutely heart breaking and I worry about the quality of life of those precious babies.
Posted By: heartlandglider

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 12:53 PM

How refreshing it is to see breeders discussing an issue like this without all the finger pointing blame game that usually goes on.
People who breed DO need to be aware of this type of condition and the lines it comes from, otherwise, how can they make an educated decision when putting their pedigrees together for their pairings.
They used to say u can't throw the baby out with the bath water and this is so true. However, you can proceed from this point on with making better decisions regarding how you pair your gliders and checking out pedigrees closely to be sure you aren't increasing the chances for this and contributing to the problem.
Its good to see this thread is more concerned about the good of the gliders and where to go from where we are than whomever it was that started the situation in the first place.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 01:21 PM

Alden, Thank you so so much for starting this thread! I'm Rosie's mom, the one who started asking too many questions in the thread about Platinum Mosaics. I had planned to start a thread about this after church today, but I'm happy that you started it. I don't know enough about Wiggles to be able to inform anyone about it. I'm still a bit shocked by all this, but I won't be quiet about it and go into hiding.
Please, please, please, everyone, let's keep this thread civil so the moderators don't have any reason to lock it. I have been trying to avoid giving the name of Rosie's breeder for the same reason.
I hate seeing Rosie's name on the list of carriers, but I would hate even more for an unsuspecting glider owner to get the rude suprise that I got yesterday.
I will have Rosie's mate, Cisco, neutered as soon as I can. I hate to do that, but I don't want to add to the problem. I'm pretty sure that Rosie has a joey in pouch.
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 01:42 PM

That video is very disturbing to watch. I can't imagine anyone knowing about this gene would continue to breed. BTW, I've been actively breeding for over 7 years and I didn't know about this gene. Who knew about this and didn't do anything???
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Peeka02
Alden, thank you for bringing this up. I do not see why a discussion like this would upset anyone we are all glider lovers here. I'm sure this thread will be full of great information.

ppl will get upset if they see they are breeding and dont want to stop. those who wont help stop this line are directly effecting the health of the joeys. im so glad this topic was brought to light, i never knew about any of it. i dont breed, so it doesnt effect me,.... BUT.... IF someone breeds and sells a baby with this trait in its line, the new owners NEED to be told! its not fair to NOT get that info and go home with a baby who can pass that on!
Posted By: nancy1202

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 02:32 PM

I was just informed on September 14th that my WF Mosaic, Lukas, carries this gene. I purchased this glider over a year ago for breeding. He is paired with a glider with no WF in her lineage, and I have been assured that this trait will not be manifested in their offspring. However, the gene will be passed on...

So, my question is... do I neuter this pair? I have kept all 3 joeys so far. Can this only be passed with inbreeding? How far back? Do I now have a pet-only pair?
Posted By: gliderma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 02:33 PM

This is disturbing news to me. I have been around gliders for only the last couple years, a very short time compared to most of you, but I have never heard of this until now. I do have gliders that have some of these gliders in their lines in just the little bit of research I have done just now. If it is so well known, why haven't we been told & why were these gliders bred? So far I have Frodo 4 & 5 generations back and have never had a wiggle syndrome joey. Is that far enough removed?
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 02:46 PM

Lynn, if you have Frodo 4 and 5 generations back, you need to check into the lines more and find out exactly where your gider stands in the lineage.
Posted By: StitchsMom

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 03:06 PM

** Locked for admin review **
Posted By: KarenE

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 06:59 PM

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Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:22 PM

Okay here is my question for today.....If this genetic defect works like the leu gene and people continue to breed in out isn't it possible for a lower het to prove out? Therefore bringing the defect to the forefront once again. I understand the chances are slim but some are saying if you don't breed frodo to frodo everything should be fine meanwhile creating hundreds of hets?????? In all lines if people are not careful! People are saying don't panic don't pull your breeders with low hets IT WILL BE OK???? But why is any chance of this defect resurfacing somewhere down the road ok?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:34 PM

Thank you for reopening the thread, Karen. It is NOT my intention that this cause drama or panic.

PLEASE DO NOT PANIC!


The gliders listed as 100% hets for this syndrome have either produced joeys with the wiggle gene, or their parents have.

The lineages are pretty straight forward - and all go directly back to Frodo. I am happy to create a lineage chart so that people can see in picture form where the gene has shown up. It will take me a bit to do that - so please be patient.

It is said that this is a result ONLY of inbreeding. However - why then would it skip 7 generations and then show up again?

Because I choose NOT to participate in genetics discussions, and have chosen not to include leus or leu hets in my breeding does not mean I'm clueless or an idiot.

Originally Posted By: Adri
Alden, YOU have gliders from these lines!!! We ALL do, these gliders are in everybody's lineage. Yet you are recommending people to neuter and separate gliders?

Yes - I stated that *I* have gliders with this lineage! Yup! I do! Read what I wrote - this concerns me because *I* have gliders with this lineage. *I* want to make informed breeding choices and I choose to think that most breeders want the same.

I SPECIFICALLY DID NOT state that pairs should be separated. I specifically warned and advised against that. I do recommend that gliders who are KNOWN to be 100% hets, or even 50% hets for this be neutered. Why not neuter?

Originally Posted By: Adri
I truly feel IF we are diligent in our breeding programs this will continue a non issue, other than something to watch for when pairing our gliders. Please don't think I am trying to discredit anyone I am not...BUT this has only surfaced when inbreeding has occurred.

It has NOT only surfaced when inbreeding has occurred. It has surfaced 7 generations away from Frodo! Our calculations count 7 generations as a 0% inbreeding COI.

I agree - DILIGENT and INFORMED breeding should be the ONLY kind practiced by ANY breeder. Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

PLEASE NO ONE PANIC! This is no worse than when the lineages in the Pet Glider Database were adjusted, and people had to rethink their breeding pairs. In fact, this is actually NO WHERE NEAR that scale!

However, breeders should be aware. And that's why I started this thread!

*I* started this thread - NOT BETH. I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: cryingoutloud37
Okay here is my question for today.....If this genetic defect works like the leu gene and people continue to breed in out isn't it possible for a lower het to prove out? Therefore bringing the defect to the forefront once again. I understand the chances are slim but some are saying if you don't breed frodo to frodo everything should be fine meanwhile creating hundreds of hets?????? In all lines if people are not careful! People are saying don't panic don't pull your breeders with low hets IT WILL BE OK???? But why is any chance of this defect resurfacing somewhere down the road ok?

Based on the way this syndrome has SO FAR surfaced, some logical (but not proven or scientific) conclusions can be drawn.

This doesn't seem to be a "subtle" het. Unlike leus, the gliders producing these joeys don't seem to produce a whole lot of hets. In one breeding pair, 3 out of 4 joeys manifested this disorder. In another, I believe it was 4 out of 4? or maybe it was 2 out of 2? It seems that when both parents carry the gene - you will know pretty quickly.

However - yes ... the most recent instances were a 7th generation Frodo line glider bred to a 5th generation Frodo line glider (I will have to confirm those, but I know that one was 7th generation.) There was no indication prior to their 2 joeys being born that either was a carrier for the gene. So - YES, low percentage hets can prove out.

My best advice at this time (and I'm not claiming to be the best person to give advice!) is that gliders with any of the hets listed in their lineages NOT be bred together! I would further recommend that ALL the 100% hets, and all the 50% hets be removed from breeding. I know that won't be popular, but that's what I would do! I would also not breed any 25% hets, or 12.5% hets - but that's me. Perhaps it is too cautious? I don't know. For me, I'd rather be safe than sorry!
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: cryingoutloud37
Okay here is my question for today.....If this genetic defect works like the leu gene and people continue to breed in out isn't it possible for a lower het to prove out? Therefore bringing the defect to the forefront once again. I understand the chances are slim but some are saying if you don't breed frodo to frodo everything should be fine meanwhile creating hundreds of hets?????? In all lines if people are not careful! People are saying don't panic don't pull your breeders with low hets IT WILL BE OK???? But why is any chance of this defect resurfacing somewhere down the road ok?


This is my thought too. I'm not understanding why, if this is a defect, it can't be bred out. Granted, I know little to nothing about COI and hets and color possibilities. That's why I asked for advice from several experienced breeders and glider owners, before I purchased Serendipity to bred with Kanani. That's also why I asked for advice before purchasing Dew Drop and Mercedes. But I would really love to learn about this on my own.

It's confusing to me, because I've heard that a line can be "bred out" to lower the COI. I guess I need a more detailed explanation of what "bred out" means. dunno confused
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Adri


Do you guys even realize most of the gliders you have mentioned are dead or too old to breed?


Adri, many of the gliders shown here in the list are not very old. Macaroni and Cheezer are less than two years old. I know because "I" have Macaroni AKA Malachi. He can't make babies so no problem there but his brother Cheezer might be able to. (I wouldn't know who has him)

Alden, what does the ESG mean by Lily's name?
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

However - yes ... the most recent instances were a 7th generation Frodo line glider bred to a 5th generation Frodo line glider (I will have to confirm those, but I know that one was 7th generation.) There was no indication prior to their 2 joeys being born that either was a carrier for the gene. So - YES, low percentage hets can prove out.


Did that breeding pair only produce those two wiggle babies or have they produced normal babies as well???

Did the breeder of the two wiggle babies know of this disorder prior to creating this breeding pair?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Alden, what does the ESG mean by Lily's name?


I copied the names right out of the Pet Glider Database - so I would assume that ESG is some sort of Breeder code as to who bred or owns this glider? Just as the (tspsugar) by one of the gliders indicates that this is the breeder for that glider.

I'm off to the dog park, and maybe to clean the house? So - I'm going to be gone. I do not know that I'm the best person to give advice or answer these questions anyway. I'm only trying my best to fill an information gap. Hopefully those with more direct knowledge can come here and calmly answer questions.

I do NOT believe that anyone made malicious decisions regarding sharing of information. I think that perhaps some "we know what's best for everyone" type of logic went into the decision making. However, I think that was an honest decision, made to protect the glider community. Let's NOT prove them correct by creating panic!
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
Alden, what does the ESG mean by Lily's name?


I'm pretty sure that stands for Exotic Sugar Gliders. It's a breeders site, here's the link - http://exoticsugargliders.net - if you want to check it out.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 08:08 PM

I do not feel that retiring all gliders affiliated with Frodo is the answer here. I have had experience with a similar issue in Ball Pythons with Wobblers. Long story short there it boiled down to no one caring about inbreeding in snakes, and through bad decisions and choices it ran rampant and really devastated a few morph variations (colors).

Why hasnt this happened here too?

Because, we keep track of lineages, until recently no one cared about inbreeding brother/sister in snakes, or to keep tabs on who bred to who. Because gliders have such meticulous lineage upkeep, we track COI etc this is a very limited problem. I forsee it being limited as long as we are all smart and responsible.

What does this mean for you me us?

Retiring, neutering, separating pairs based on this information should not be your first step - please please please contact someone who has more experience with this issue and can further explain this to you - ie a large breeder, someone who has been in the community a long time or a trusted friend who seems to know. Majority of WFB, lots of leus and some plat lines have these 'tainted' gliders in them. With NO problems. If the COI is low, and the gliders in question are farther back in the lines, and you arent inbreeding directly or indirectly (line) then you should be safe. Be smart, be responsible, be aware.

This is a very small number of animals actually reflecting this trait (I too will call it a genetic disorder as I do think thats a accurate statement IMO) I do think the 100% and 50% of these gliders should be further looked into to see really what the likelihood of them passing the trait is, but that is up to those breeders and we can only hope that they are making responsible pairings and are informing new joey owners of the potential risk.


Meg is right - the letters behind the name is coding for the breeder who owns the glider. Tsp sugar is a breeder so is ESG its their glider is what it means just like my gliders have my name behind them ex Artic (SKSG) etc in the database. Helps keep things organized smile
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 08:19 PM

Thanks Meg! I was worried and wanted to check on Lily's line (the Lily I needed to check has passed away years ago) so, turns out, wrong Lily.
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 08:38 PM

Unless a breeder knows what they're doing, they wouldn't know Frodo would be in their glider's lineage since tpg only shows 4 generations, and most use that when looking at lineages. You'd have to know to go farther into the lineage on both sides of the Great-Grandparents to make sure. I hope people will do that now that this has come up.
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:16 PM

The only thing I find disheartening at this time it that this was A SECRET?!?!?!? What were the intentions for keeping it a secret??? The only answer I can come up with would be so breeders who knew this didn't lose MONEY! In my opinion I would have to say that any offspring that may carry this genetic defect should be sold as a pet only glider! Genetic defect no matter how slim the chance of rearing it's ugly head is still a genetic DEFECT! Breeding a line with a known genetic defect seems less like breeding and more like experimenting?!?!? I see no need to panic...but stop the madness now! I have at least one glider that will be pulled from my breeding program he is 25% possible het. I understand my breeder may or may not have been aware of this and I place no blame but to those of you who were aware this existed......hmmmm I just don't understand! I understand if you choose breed a wiggle het and do not breed with a glider from frodo line you can produce healthy babies who will not show but possibly carry the defect. I see how we can justify that pairing but you ARE STILL BREEDING A GLIDER WITH A GENETIC DEFECT! It isn't a gray matter it is right their in BLACK AND WHITE!
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:19 PM

A couple (at least) of the gliders listed above to carry this gene have a common name in the Pet Glider Database. How do we know WHICH one it is that carries the gene?
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:20 PM

The 'secret' idea has been addressed many times now.

There was no secret. Many people knew about it - just not us LOL. There have been people in the community who openly discussed this on many forums including GC. It wasnt hushed up or anything like that, but there is very little information concerning this (vet reports etc) and as we all know a lot of things fall away w/out this information being provided. Recently there are some new joeys that cropped up with this issue which is why its being brought up again with concern (I think).

So.... it wasnt hushed, it wasnt a secret, we just didnt know - and now we do. Now we can move on from that small concern to the real concern of how to keep track of this problem and make smart choices. smile
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:27 PM

Alden, the percentages you have listed are not accurate. You listed Precious as a 100% het, when in fact that is not accurate unless she proved to carry the gene. Her father (galanthes?) did for sure carry the gene, but Precious has not, to my knowledge, proven to carry it. Even if BOTH her parents carried it, that only makes her a 66% carrier.

So, several of the gliders listed as 50% hets are actually only 25% hets, such as my Bailey. She is 3 months old, so i also don't understand the need to list her in checking pedigrees...

There ARE more genetic defects... some we are aware of, and some we may not be. This is one that we ARE aware of, and if we document each wiggle baby that is produced, it will give people a better idea of what we are looking at and how close our gliders are to the defect and if they will produce that defect.

My biggest concern is that everyone is now panicked, and they shouldn't be. I was aware of the defect when I bought Bailey, I knew to avoid breeding her with any glider closely related to the Frodo line.
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:28 PM

How about all the breeders who are now realizing they indeed have the possibility of wiggle het list it in the remarks in the lineage "possible wiggle het" on TPG. Maybe their gliders will never produce the defect maybe none of the offspring will but it will be right there in the lineage. That would make it easy to track to see the outcome of continuing to breed these lines if that is what breeders choose to do.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:33 PM

If all of the confirmed carriers of it would be documented in the pedigree, and all wiggle babies added to the pedigree, we would be able to do the % hets just as easily as we do any other hets. "Possible wiggle het" would be too broad and would encompass all, from 66% to 3.15%
If we document and adjust the % just like we do when gliders prove out for any other gene... it should be fine.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:37 PM

Nadine Baily is listed because her mother (Precious) is listed as a 100% carrier and Precious's father (Gilthanas)is listed as a 100% carrier by Aldens calculations. And its not generations back Bailys mama is being considered a known carrier. Though who knows if the trait will present in Baily herself she is in the direct lineup which is why I think Alden included her.

Alden, really looking forward to your chart to help explain this further. Also what is the likelihood of Nadines glider proving out this trait in reality? I think Nadine would have to inbreed for it to be a concern correct? Who is Bailys mate have you checked to see if Bailys mate has Frodo lines yet to see if its even a concern?

Are all the 100% carriers that you posted Alden proven that they carry it ie they had babies or their babies had babies with the genetic defect for sure?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:41 PM

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I am fairly new to gliders, but in order to be a responsible glider owner, I need to know what "issues" are out there. At least it gives me the information I need to make better decisions for purchasing and pairing gliders. It also makes me wonder what else is out there that I am not aware of. Maybe there needs to be another thread started.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
A couple (at least) of the gliders listed above to carry this gene have a common name in the Pet Glider Database. How do we know WHICH one it is that carries the gene?


Alden, do you know WHICH Molly is in the list as being a HET for "wiggle"?
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:44 PM

Their future offspring are in the pedigree. Bailey Kaluah joeys. Kaluah is 5 generations out of Frodo, from Panzy's line. I will keep them together, as they get along very well and there is actually a low chance of the gene being expressed.

Tianna, Precious has NOT been proven to carry the gene, so she is either 50% or 66% because her father carried the gene, not sure if her mother had the gene or not. Which means, Bailey is NOT 50%, she is either 33% or 25%.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:52 PM

Quote:
The KNOWN 100% carriers of this gene are:
Frodo Boogie Beatrice Dante Violet Calypso Mallory Gardenia Poppins Gilthanas Precious Smidgin Kitty


I said they were listed as being such - not that they were. Is Gilthanas proven?

I would like to know then why gliders who are not proven, as Nadine states Precious is not proven to carry the gene why they are being listed as 100% hets... since we are going to be using that information to base major decisions on we need accurate information.

Why did those gliders get the tag of KNOWN carriers if infact they are not known to be carriers?

Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:57 PM

Quote:
That as a result of this research

What research was conducted?
Is this what you refer to as research above:
Quote:
I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Quote:
Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

I agree.
So, I am going to repeat the same questions I asked on TSS:

I do not feel we should be telling everyone to go neuter gliders right away. Why don't I feel that way? Well, because no one so far has answered my questions or PROVEN to me that this is a genetic flaw attached to this line rather than a randomly occurring flaw or some other issue all together.

Let's look at the science of this and just get some questions answered. I am NOT a geneticist, nor am I a breeder, so I honestly do not know the answers to these questions. What I do know a little something about is research. So, if we are going to say that we have conducted research and that gliders are KNOWN carriers of a genetic flaw, then I expect that these questions are going to be easily answered by those who conducted the research. Having these questions answered would certainly help us better understand the issue at hand and act intelligently, with full knowledge of the subject matter rather than based on a panic response.

* How many gliders were tested? How many show this "wiggle gene?"
* How do we KNOW It is attached to a gene?
* How long did this research take?
* Who conducted the research? What are their credentials?
* Was genetic mapping done? IF so, by whom? Where? Can we have more done?
* Were gliders OUTSIDE of this line tested?
* What sort of testing was conducted? What tests were run? What did they show?

* What other possibilities for the behavior of these gliders were explored? I have gliders who exhibit these exact same symptoms, but are not in this line. I kNOW the cause of their neurological issues. It is not genetic. So, with ALL of these gliders, were tests run to rule out toxins, malnutrition, parasites, bacterial infections, deformity, etc?

* How do we know this is not just a randomly occurring event? That it is only attached to the Frodo line? Were ALL OTHER lines tested (including those outside this community?) Or at least a large enough sample of other lines to rule out the occurrence of this in other lines?

* Are there absolutely no examples of this happening outside of this line? How do we know/conclude this? Where is this information?

* Have we allowed for the fact that most of the gliders living as pets in this country are NOT represented by the members of these online forums? If so, how did that impact the test results and conclusions?

* Is it possible that this is something that attaches to the WF gene(s) and not just to the Frodo line? How do we KNOW this?

I guess what I am saying is I hear a lot of talk about KNOWING and FOR SURE and GENETIC MUTATION and I don't know how we got to this point. HOW do we KNOW FOR SURE this is a GENETIC MUTATION attached only to this line?

And, if we have this proof - if the research was conducted and is backed by sound scientific principal and data, then WHY was it not presented to the community as such?

Just listing names and stating that you KNOW something does not make it a fact. Calling something research does not make it scientific or validate your conclusions.
Considering my role in this community, Yes, I'm gonna ask for proof. I think this is necessary BEFORE we start suggesting people stop breeding gliders or neuter an entire line of gliders.

There is an issue with some of these joeys - that is not in question. The question at hand is: Is this genetic? If so, is it linked to the WF gene, the Frodo line or something else all together? Can this just be a randomly occurring event? Could there be another explanation/cause?
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

The gliders listed as 100% hets for this syndrome have either produced joeys with the wiggle gene, or their parents have.


This is at the bottom of page 1. That is what I was referring to when i said she was not proven to carry the gen.

EDIT: Gilthanas was paired to 3 different females, Violet, Rosa, and Silvara. Depending on which female produced the wiggle babies... that DOES effect the %s.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:01 PM

Tianna, Molly is my Mary Roses' mother, Ched is in there too, NONE of the offspring have the "wiggle" syndrome nor do any of Marys' joeys. I agree, how can they be considered 100% HET for a gene when it hasn't proved out in many gliders at all?
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:04 PM

Good question T, who are the known carriers? Maybe someone will step up and answer the question.

Nadine, people shouldn't be panicked, but they should be VERY concerned. I guess you were one of the lucky ones who were informed of this. When I purchased my Mozart, the breeder said NOTHING about the possibility of this gene popping up. She was the owner of Frodo and the breeder of Mozart. So, why, I wonder? How were you told?

Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:05 PM

Right, which is why im confused as to how Alden got information that she was indeed proven but you are here saying she isnt proven. I would really like the proof behind each glider that is being listed as proven carrier.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:06 PM

Can someone who is knowledgeable in genetics related to this issue, please PM me?
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:10 PM

I was told because Bailey's breeder has produced wiggle babies. She wanted me to be well aware and prepared to keep away from inbreeding the line.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:11 PM

And those wiggle babies are they related to Bailey at all?
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:13 PM

She told me that Gil had produced wiggle babies... but i also do not know what female was the mother of the wiggle babies.

CORRECTION: Gil has NOT produced the wiggle babies. The only babies that were produced with the wiggle gene from there were inbred.

There are other gliders from other lines with the issue.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Right, which is why im confused as to how Alden got information that she was indeed proven but you are here saying she isnt proven. I would really like the proof behind each glider that is being listed as proven carrier.


I'm very confused also. Mary Rose is fine, all of her joeys are fine (Cheryl, Dustin (Buddy), Dew Drop and Lucy) I know of NO gliders related to Mary that have this "syndrome". I want to know how she can considered a "HET". IF there are ANY gliders with it, "I" need to know!
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:27 PM

It was mentioned previously, and it was dismissed as being "irrelevant" previously. It wasn't a "secret" per se - but it was hushed up.

If it was NOT hushed up, then why are these breeders so angry with me now for posting this information? If it wasn't hushed up, then this thread should be just another "ho hum - mentioning THAT again" thread. Instead - some of the people who knew, who own the wiggle joeys, or have bred them, are ANGRY with me.

There are breeders who did not want this to be general knowledge simply because of money. Those same breeders have encouraged pairs that are very questionable. In my opinion, they have done so to make a buck.

Val - I'd love to answer all your questions, but I can't. The people directly involved could - if they chose to. But instead they've chosen to respond with both denial and anger. I posted the information I had. There is more information - but I don't have access to it.

I WILL be making that chart now, documenting this syndrome. So - I'll be back in a bit with that!
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:30 PM

Alden ~~~ Can you please explain w/ proof or lineage charts/links or something why those gliders are listed as 100%. Go through the list and state how many joeys are attached to that particular glider that has wiggles or as to why that glider is being stated as 100%? This will help clear up a really big question that is sitting here being unanswered.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:31 PM

thank you alden. i for one do appreciate this news and it will help me and many others in selecting their next breeding pair.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:36 PM

Tianna - working on that right now - I'll be back with it.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:38 PM

Awesome!
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:40 PM

Alden, I agree with you. Money is the root of all evil. Back when I really started getting into breeding, I was told to pair certain gliders, and come to find out later (when I really knew what COI's were and had done my homework) the COI's were too high. Money......sheesh.

I hope that this has taught everyone a lesson. If there's a problem, it needs to be brought out as soon as possible. I understand that this was supposed to have been talked about before, but it must have been just between a few people and a LONG time ago.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:46 PM

Quote:
there are A LOT of glider affected


There are NOT "a lot" of gliders FROM THE FRODO LINE that are effected with this gene. There are 8 total and all of those are from 3 pairs. All 3 of which were SEVERELY inbred.

There ARE, however, MULTIPLE other cases of joeys having this issue that are NOT from the Frodo line. Adri's, for one, and from what Beth has told me there are quite a few gliders over in Oregon who have this problem as well. The reason it's a problem in Oregon is because the breeders there are careless with their breedings, don't keep lineages, and also won't pay to bring in "new blood" from out of state. Thus resulting in severe inbreeding which, in turn, results in lots of "wiggle babies".

The fact that we've had 3 (INBRED) pairs of gliders produce wiggle babies and that they all have Frodo in their ancestry honestly doesn't say much against the Frodo line, imo. Not so much these days, but when I first joined up in on GC high-generation WFs were all the rage. It was all about who could get the highest-gen baby so they could have "super WFs" or really light WFs. I even saw SEVEN GENERATION WFs that were shown off with pride, even though to get that high of a generation some seriously messed up breedings had to take place.

Well, with that being said, think about ALLLLLL those gliders from the WF lines that were linebred and inbred to get all the thousands of WFs that exist today. Yet, somehow, we've only had THREE pairings resulting in "wiggle babies". Wouldn't you so that those odds are actually pretty darn low?! And WHY?....it's because it's not about WHICH gliders is being bred, it's about HOW the glider is being bred and TO WHOM.

If you breed a supposed "wiggle het" to a glider that's unrelated then you will NOT get a wiggle baby. We already know that for a fact.

Heck, even if you breed a wiggle het to a POSSIBLE wiggle het(50%) your odds of getting a wiggle baby are STILL slim to none, so long as the pairing isn't being INBRED.

Poppins, Gil's dad, should, SUPPOSEDLY, be a 100% wiggle het(according to your theory, Alden). He's paired with China Doll, a SUPPOSEDLY 50% wiggle het. However, ya know what?...they haven't had ANY wiggle babies! The reason is because it's NOT about being "hets", it's about INBREEDING.

There has NEVER, EVER, EVER been a recorded instance of a wiggle baby being produced by a pair that was not grossly inbred.

Quote:
FRODO is the original carrier.


We have no proof of that. We can only assume it. Also, if your theory were correct, then that'd mean that ANY glider with Frodo ANYWHERE in the lines shouldn't be bred. Because, after all, it's already been passed on 8 generations, so who are you to say that "12.5% or less" is safe or not. Cause 8 generations would be a 0.78% het...

This whole post is causing mass panic over something that the only way to really, truelly do anything about it, based on the theory you're posting, would be to take ALLLLLLLL of Frodo's ancestors out of breeding. Well, actually, you'd have to take all of CEREAL'S ancestors out of breeding because Frodo is from Cereal and so he could have passed the gene on to Frodo, right?...

See where I'm going?

Quote:
It is said that this is a result ONLY of inbreeding. However - why then would it skip 7 generations and then show up again?


ALL gliders(and other types of animals, and humans...) are "hets" for genetic defects. ANY glider, if inbred, will produce babies with genetic defects at some point in time. Maybe not the first generation, but if you keep inbreeding you WILL get bad results. Be it a "wiggle baby", or a polydactyl, or a short-tailed glider, or a stub-nosed glider, or a joey that dies for some unknown reason, or one that is killed before even coming OOP.... The fact of the matter is that no matter WHAT glider you inbreed, you will still always get problems that pop up.

That being said, if you inbred some gliders and get messed up babies, then it's your own fault. It's not the grandparents' fault or even the parents fault. It's simply the result of 2 gliders who have the same genetic issue in their DNA and when they're bred together their genes line up just right to where a baby with that otherwise-dormant gene will occur.

Since when do we judge entire LINES of gliders based on someone's "oopsy" inbreeding? This is certainly not the first time that gliders have been inbred and it's resulted in joeys with problems and it won't be the last.

We should take this as a lesson to be more careful in our pairings, but not as a reason to have mass panic and demand that any gliders in a line should have to be neutered because they MIGHT have something wrong because of an ancestor that's many generations back.

Summary: unless you are INBREEDING your gliders, there is NO reason to fear having a wiggle baby. The ONLY times this gene has occurred is when gliders were SEVERELY inbred. The Frodo line has been bred, line-bred, and inbred so much that for it only to have occurred 3 times BECAUSE OF INBREEDING is NOT something to panic about. Since when has it ever been considered "abnormal" for an inbred baby to have genetic issues? It's expected, because it's INBRED. It's not something to completely spaz about and start panic throughout the glider community.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:46 PM

Okay, now that I've posted that, let me approach the situation of why MY gliders are on that list of you supposed "100% wiggle hets"...

To start, Gilthanas has NEVER produced a wiggle baby, nor have any of his joeys aside from Smidgin(who, mind you, was rejected by his mother as soon as he came OOP). Precious, his daughter, has also never produced a wiggle baby and the only joey of hers that did was Kitty(who was also handraised).

Smidgin and Kitty were hand-raised together and have always been together and will never be separated. I NEVER intended to breed this pair and had I been able, he would have gotten neutered as soon as he was big enough. HOWEVER...anyone who managed to scrape by through this last year knows just how hard times are and how little money there is to be made. :\ Well, add that on top of THOUSANDS of dollars I had in vet bills over the last year, plus my husband having to move out-of-state just to get a job because there was NOTHING avialable here, and me not being able to get a job until just a couple months ago. Oh, and don't forget the lovely heating bills that stack up when it's winter in Ohio and you have no money...

Anyways, that being said, it's been hard and I knew I wouldn't be able to get Smidgin neutered before Kitty was old enough to breed, which left me with one of the hardest decisions I've had to make with my gliders: should I keep them together and risk them having a joey or should I split up a pair of joeys that were hand-raised together and have NEVER been alone or with other gliders(aside from the very, very beginning of their OOP lives)?

It was a really hard choice to make, but I looked around at all the other gliders that had been inbred much worse then these 2 would be(they are uncle and niece) and I didn't see those pairs throwing messed up babies, so I figured it wasn't too high of a risk. Boy was I wrong...

Well, come June 27, the beautiful, sweet, amazing, and, yes, "wiggly" Shimmer came OOP. At first I thought she was just a squirmy little baby, but by a couple weeks old I knew something was wrong. frown I showed a video of her to Beth and Beth recognized it right away: she had the wiggle gene. cry

Around the time all of this was happening I got an unexpected payment from a friend for a joey she'd bought on a payment plan, but had been able to go ahead and pay him off at once. I was SO happy because I knew I'd finally be able to get Smidgin(and some of my other boys) neutered and he and Kitty wouldn't have any more joeys. Well...we all know how life goes: NEVER according to plan! My vet is the only local vet that I trusted to do the neuter and she was out of town at the time, of course. :\ I called the day she was scheduled to be back and I excitedly asked to schedule Smidgin for a neuter. I waited for them to check the scheduled and was told that they couldn't get him in for a MONTH! Between my vet having gone on vacation and it being kitten/puppy season, they were fully booked. cry

Unfortunately, before I could work out a back-up plan it was too late, they'd already mated again. frown Thus resulting in the "mysterious" joeys that Alden is referring to as having just come OOP 2 weeks ago.

Smidgin is neutered now and there will be NO MORE JOEYS from them. Shimmer is staying with them and the boy from the 2 new joeys will also be neutered when he's big enough because I've worked things out now with the vet I USED to go to(2 1/2 hours away) so that I can trust him again. He didn't use pain meds on my other glider I got neutered with him and the poor boy chewed himself open on the drive him, so I didn't dare use the vet again. However, I've spoken with the director of meds there and she's spoken to the vet and worked things out. In fact, I just got 6 of my boys neutered there last week! laugh

The point of this ridiculously long post is that I didn't want people jumping to conclusions(which they already have done) and assuming that the pairs that have produced "wiggle babies" are continuing to be bred.

My "wiggle babies" were a result of inbreeding and I do not feel that the GRANDFATHER should have to be neutered just because his grandbabies are inbred and, thus, have issues.

I'd feel the same about any of my gliders, not just him. I pride myself on my good breeding pairs and will not retire a perfectly healthy breeding pair just because I was an idiot and 2 of their offspring inbreed and that inbreeding resulted in a baby with issues. It's to be expected with inbreeding! That's why it's illegal for people to marry their cousins! tounge

Now, if this had occurred in a pair that was NOT inbred(example: Lil Dude and Athena, whose joeys have a COI of 4% and Athena's from the Frodo line as well), then I wouldn't hesitate for even a split second to neuter any and all gliders I have that are related to them. However, I will NOT make a decision like that based on an inbred joey. All of my past and current(soon-to-be) customers are fully aware of the situation surrounding Smidgin and Kitty's joeys. I've never once lied about it because I honestly don't feel like it's even a problem unless someone plans on inbreeding them(in which case, they wouldn't be getting a baby from me! lol).

Take all this as you like, but as someone who's dealt with this first-hand and spent many, many, many countless hours on the phone and emailing other breeders and talking with people about it, I feel like I've made the right decision in regards to my gliders. I encourage you all to do the same and do what YOU feel is right for YOUR gliders. Alden, if you want to neuter every glider you have from the Frodo line, including Emi(who is only 4 generations out from him), then go for it and kudos to you! Although, I've got to admit, I'll certainly miss seeing her beautiful babies. frown
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 10:57 PM

Wow I have to say that that is one of the most negligent things ive heard in a long time Nicole, wow just wow. Glad they are neutered now. Thanks for sharing this information though it was very important for us to know.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:09 PM

Ya know, Tianna, I agree with you 1000%! I've beat myself up over this so many times that it's not worth continuing to do so. I know what I did was stupid and hind-site is always 20-20, right?

What's done is done and I(and others) are able to learn from the experience.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:12 PM

Agreed Nicole, its a shame, but whats done is done - and your owning up for it. Cant ask for more.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:15 PM

Nicole I want to thank you for posting and coming out of anonymity. I'm sure it took a lot from you, knowing how hard you have judged others and how you pride yourself in perfect breedings.

Now that this is out I hope it makes it more clear for people to understand that while this is real it is not reason to panic. Which is exactly what I have been trying to say but it has been deflected by unfounded "truths".
Posted By: DavidW

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Val - I'd love to answer all your questions, but I can't. The people directly involved could - if they chose to. But instead they've chosen to respond with both denial and anger. I posted the information I had. There is more information - but I don't have access to it.


Alden - Then why try and relay something you don't have complete access too and knowledge of?
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:29 PM

Excuse me for repeating myself. I'm certain that many people actually take the time to READ what someone else writes, and don't in turn manipulate their words.

But, for those who have something to loose here, for those who conspired together to block this from becoming general knowledge, I'm afraid I have to repeat myself one more time.

DO NOT PANIC!

No one needs to break up pairs!
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:32 PM

Alden I didnt see anything specifically related to you in her post and didnt know any comments were directed towards you tell you said something. Lets just tone this down because I really would prefer to not have this giant thread locked and removed by GC because we are getting testy - seriously, there is a LOT of important information just shared that many people need to read so everyone just chillax.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:32 PM

Originally Posted By: DavidW
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Val - I'd love to answer all your questions, but I can't. The people directly involved could - if they chose to. But instead they've chosen to respond with both denial and anger. I posted the information I had. There is more information - but I don't have access to it.


Alden - Then why try and relay something you don't have complete access too and knowledge of?
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


Because the people who DO have access to this information were determined to keep it from becoming general knowledge. Every time the information has started to become public, a certain group of breeders has shot it down. ONE breeder even tried to black mail a community member in order to keep this information from becoming public. Why? Money.

I do not believe that our glider community is "too stupid" to understand responsible breeding. I do not believe that people are better off being "saved" from bad information. I do not believe that continuing to breed a glider KNOWN to carry this disorder - simply because he is an expensive glider - is moral or ethical. And, I could not stay quiet and watch that happen.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:36 PM

Adri, just to clarify, I never asked to remain "anonymous". What I asked was for my videos to be removed because they were stolen from my Photobucket account without my permission.

Also, if you ask around to people who know me you'll know that I wanted to post about this issue myself, but never did because I worried that it would cause mass panic in the glider community about Frodo. I knew it would cause people to freak out and neuter/separate gliders over an issue that has never popped up except with inbreeding. I thought that it was something that should be approached carefully and sensitively so as not to cause panic.
Posted By: DavidW

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:46 PM

Posting half of one side can be just as bad though. Especially if the information is not completely accurate. This should be looked into much further before people start making drastic decisions. The information is out there find it!

I do agree to the point of that someone producing these babies should take action against it hipping again.

But until sufficient information is available to pinpoint 100 percent what/who (gene or glider) is causing this why scare a bunch of people by saying for example this glider is a problem when it has produced no joeys the exhibit the problem?

just my two cents!!
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:51 PM

I for one want to say:

Nicole, I am very proud of you for coming out here and explaining what happened and HOW it happened. It took a lot and it really does show that over time you have matured and are willing to own up to things, and for that, I respect you as I know it wasnt easy to do.

Quote:
Because the people who DO have access to this information were determined to keep it from becoming general knowledge. Every time the information has started to become public, a certain group of breeders has shot it down. ONE breeder even tried to black mail a community member in order to keep this information from becoming public. Why? Money.


Sorry Alden, but with all the stories you have told in the past, unless you can provide names of these so called people INSIDE our community now that are *black mailing* others or people come out and speak for themselves, maybe you should not be speaking for others.

As for this *wiggle gene* I first heard about it a week or two ago but to me it was called the *bobble head syndrome*

With all the gliders I have bred here, and yes, some do have Frodo back in the lineage, I have NEVER (Thank God) had a *wiggle baby* nor have any of the offspring that I have sold...

So until someone can answer ALL the questions that Val asked above, this to me is just something to be aware of, but I wont be going out and neutering any of my males, because I havent seen the proof that this is indeed a genetic issue.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:51 PM

Nicole, thank you for coming and explaining all this. I have been worried sick half the day over it! I am so sorry for what you have gone through with your glider kids. We ALL make mistakes, we are not perfect. ((((HUGS))))
Posted By: Feather

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:51 PM

I have read this post a couple time now. If this is a true genetic problem and not just a result of inbreeding, it sounds more like both parents have to carry the gene to have an affected joey.

It would be along the lines of lethal white in Paints.

Out of 4 breedings, according to genetics, one would result in an affected animal, two would result in carriers and one would have clean genetics and not be able to pass it on.

The only way to tell if you have carriers is to have genetic testing done. There is no breeding it out, but you can quit getting affected individuals by not breeding two carriers together or breeding an affected individual to anything.

Unfortunately in Paints the affected animal is either born dead or dies shortly after death as it also affects the organs in the horses body.

I agree with Val on this and maybe someday glider breeders will have an association with the ability to have genetic studies done on afflictions like this.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:51 PM

David- I am sorry that people have been scared! I have posted aproximately 5 times now that there is no reason to panic, no reason to separate pairs. I posted from the start that my intent was to get the information in the public eye so that people could discuss it.

I've also stated that I believe people are capable of making informed decisions - WHEN they have the information!

Now they do!
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:55 PM

I have to say David, im still glad Alden posted. I had no idea, nor did many others. And as a future breeder yourself you should be happy she posted too.

The thing is a lot genetic disorders etc can be contributed to other things blah-blah-blah but its IMPORTANT to know. Knowledge will advance us all, ignorance isnt bliss in these situations.

So lets keep compiling facts, proof, evidence, and really try to make sure we stay UTD on all this because IT IS IMPORTANT! And I dont care how much was given in the initial post I guarantee like Nicole said anything of this sort comming out would have caused people to freak out. Dont pretend otherwise.

We need more breeders like Nicole to come out with the truth of how their joeys have this - at least she was honest and brave enough to come forward to say - yep this is real, but this is why it happened in my gliders. Then at least we dont have to assume or guess.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:57 PM

I'm sorry, Peggy - per GC rules, and per my agreement with KarenE, I'm not allowed to provide names.

Now that at least some of the people are coming out and speaking about this openly for themselves, perhaps the other details will be allowed to emerge as well.

I can only hope!

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Sorry Alden, but with all the stories you have told in the past,

I'd personally appreciate it if you'd discontinue trying to convince people that I'm a liar. You are making personal comments about me, when I've made none here about anyone. I have answered you in every instance where you have ever accused me of lying. However, you continue to pretend otherwise. It has no place on this thread.
Posted By: krysKritters

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/26/10 11:58 PM

I have owned gliders for many years and I am also a breeder...
While there are some that are still my "elders" in both years of experience and knowledge, I still try to keep up when it comes to the lineages and what not....

I am glad this has posted publically. Yes, some may panic but there will also be some who worry more than others. That is not a good enough reason to not inform the rest of us.
How else would I ( and everyone else) learn if it wasn't for those with more information thatn I posting it for me to read?

Thank you.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:00 AM

Alden, no one has conspired. Those of us who are ACTUALLY INVOLVED, FIRST-HAND with this have been discussing what to about it and how best to approach the glider community with the information we've learned.

However, since all the information we have is from INBRED pairs, there's not alot we can go on because with inbreeding it's tricky since inbreeding naturally causes genetic problems to occur. Problem that normally would never be an issue.

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I do not believe that continuing to breed a glider KNOWN to carry this disorder - simply because he is an expensive glider - is moral or ethical.


I'm just going just respond to that with a quote from something you posted and even went so far as to BOLD

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
PLEASE do not turn this thread into finger pointing and name calling and breeder bashing. There is NO USE pointing fingers now.
Posted By: DavidW

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:00 AM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
David- I am sorry that people have been scared! I have posted aproximately 5 times now that there is no reason to panic, no reason to separate pairs. I posted from the start that my intent was to get the information in the public eye so that people could discuss it.

I've also stated that I believe people are capable of making informed decisions - WHEN they have the information!

Now they do!


Well until all the questions that Val asked are answered I don't believe that an informed decision can be realistically made.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:02 AM

Alden there are only two breeders who have produced these joeys one is Sheila and she has faced the music on this subject long ago and made a public apology to the community on another board, the other has just posted and that is Nicole, she has also apologized for her doings. So where is this conspiracy you speak of? This is not the case at hand...people need to know how and why this may or may not affect them and their gliders.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Alden, no one has conspired. Those of us who are ACTUALLY INVOLVED, FIRST-HAND with this have been discussing what to about it and how best to approach the glider community with the information we've learned.

You've been discussing it for SEVEN years? And in the meantime, more joeys have been born with this syndrome? I'm sorry I didn't feel it was ethical to sit by and continue to watch you discuss it.

Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I do not believe that continuing to breed a glider KNOWN to carry this disorder - simply because he is an expensive glider - is moral or ethical.


I'm just going just respond to that with a quote from something you posted and even went so far as to BOLD

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
PLEASE do not turn this thread into finger pointing and name calling and breeder bashing. There is NO USE pointing fingers now.




I think you will see that I did not point a finger at you, nor call you a name, nor bash you. However, now that YOU have pointed out that YOU are the breeder who refuses to neuter a known carrier, I hope you will reconsider.

I'm now done with this. It served the purpose for which it was intended. People are now aware. Additionally, the breeders who have known all along about this are now publicly known, and people can make their own judgments and decisions about how to proceed with their respective breeding programs.

An issue which has been mentioned and "hushed up" on more than one occasion is now general knowledge. The breeders who know the most about it are also public knowledge. I have acted here to only fill in information gaps because others would not speak. Now they are all (but for one) speaking - I don't feel this thread needs my involvement any longer.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:06 AM

David - you can use the information you have RIGHT NOW to make better decisions than at Noon yesterday. By Alden posting this we now know there is some sort of issue - and you can make the educated decision to talk to someone who knows more, you can be aware of how you pair etc. That is how we can make informed decisions.

Refused Alden - past tense, she has since neutered and is keeping all the joeys produced that have the issue.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:09 AM

EDITED:
People need to be nicer to actually have this thread be about the facts and not accusations against breeders. Try to keep it civil!


BE NICE!
Posted By: DavidW

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
I have to say David, im still glad Alden posted. I had no idea, nor did many others. And as a future breeder yourself you should be happy she posted too.

The thing is a lot genetic disorders etc can be contributed to other things blah-blah-blah but its IMPORTANT to know. Knowledge will advance us all, ignorance isnt bliss in these situations.

So lets keep compiling facts, proof, evidence, and really try to make sure we stay UTD on all this because IT IS IMPORTANT! And I dont care how much was given in the initial post I guarantee like Nicole said anything of this sort comming out would have caused people to freak out. Dont pretend otherwise.

We need more breeders like Nicole to come out with the truth of how their joeys have this - at least she was honest and brave enough to come forward to say - yep this is real, but this is why it happened in my gliders. Then at least we dont have to assume or guess.


Ok here's the points I want to make. Nothing personal Just..

What good is the information when it is flawed or missing key components?

All I ask is do more research and get the facts straight before posting things like this!

If the information was 100% accurate I would be internally great full.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:14 AM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Every time the information has started to become public, a certain group of breeders has shot it down.


Really?...Cause if I remember correctly you started this thread with a link that leads to a thread where I was trying to inform the public about this problem.

I don't see how that's "a certain group of breeders" shooting it down. In fact, it looks to me like I was trying to help inform people about it in such a way that didn't cause mass panic. But, maybe I'm wrong, I mean, after-all, I'm only the person who posted it... dunno
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:15 AM

Nadine, erm... not sure if your reading all the posts here Alden is getting kicked in the teeth here JUST as much as shes kicking back. So your biased opinion isnt needed.

Nicole are you neutering Gil or just putting him with another glider? I was under the assumption from your post that you were neutering all males involved in the issue, especially since you feel so badly about what has happened.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:19 AM

David - Thats were we have to agree to disagree I guess, I figure some information is better than no information, because frankly even if its all layed out all purdy for us - we still have the responsibility to use our minds and make decisions whether to heed information or not. So im just glad I have the ability now to go further and talk to people like Adri, Alden, Nicole, Shelia in private if I wanted to say hey ' I have a LOT of questions here, can you help me out?' And im sure one on one they would willingly help me figure this out further.

But thats just how I see things. We need TONS more information, this is a start.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:21 AM

Nicole does NOT need to neuter Gil, it's Gil's SON and Granddaughter than produced the wobble syndrome.

Smigen was the one who was neutered and was producing the wobble syndrome and he was neutered. The obligation of neutering other gliders is premature at this moment.

This is being found in more and more places, and NOT all are related to Frodo...
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:25 AM

Nadine - - if you have anything personal to say to me, could you please say it in PM?

I would like this thread to remain open so others may ask their questions.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:28 AM

No one said she needed to neuter anyone, its her choice as its anyones choice. I am asking if she was going to - because in her post about being remorseful it sure seemed like everyone involved was getting neutered and I cant be the only one who read it like that.

Direct inbreeding seems to be a big factor, but its possible its not. There is still risk involved that it could be otherwise. That is where the concern with neutering some of the main gliders involved comes from.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:28 AM

Tianna there is no need to come to me privately as I am openly a genetic geek and will gladly engage in a intelligent discussion with anyone at anytime. As a matter of fact I invite you all to return to the issue at hand and to really discuss this further.


Beth and I discussed this issue for several hours and we both came to a screeching halt when it comes to her theory of it's recessive passage. Here is my take on this...IF Beth's theory would be correct and all these gliders were hets and the path of inheritance would be like that of a normal recessive gene then the occurrence of wiggle babies would be exceedingly high as these hets have been bred with with potential hets for several years. The only verified instances of wiggle babies that can be traced to any line at all are these :

http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/trial....bmit=Create+Now This pair produced 3 wiggles and this pair http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=352&gens=5&db=sugarglider.dbw who has also produced 3 wiggles.

These are the direct result of inbreeding! The COI's of the joeys exceed 6% and in relation are first cousins.

I have yet to see a baby produced from the crossing of these lines in a responsible manner....you decide.
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:30 AM

Great post Adri.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: DavidW
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
David- I am sorry that people have been scared! I have posted aproximately 5 times now that there is no reason to panic, no reason to separate pairs. I posted from the start that my intent was to get the information in the public eye so that people could discuss it.

I've also stated that I believe people are capable of making informed decisions - WHEN they have the information!

Now they do!


Well until all the questions that Val asked are answered I don't believe that an informed decision can be realistically made.


I'll get right on it! Sorry, I've been on the phone non-stop and can't multi-task very well, lol.

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I think you will see that I did not point a finger at you, nor call you a name, nor bash you. However, now that YOU have pointed out that YOU are the breeder who refuses to neuter a known carrier, I hope you will reconsider.

I'm now done with this. It served the purpose for which it was intended. People are now aware. Additionally, the breeders who have known all along about this are now publicly known, and people can make their own judgments and decisions about how to proceed with their respective breeding programs.

An issue which has been mentioned and "hushed up" on more than one occasion is now general knowledge. The breeders who know the most about it are also public knowledge. I have acted here to only fill in information gaps because others would not speak. Now they are all (but for one) speaking - I don't feel this thread needs my involvement any longer.


First off, I already said I wasn't going to neuter my boy in the second thread I made. There was no need for you to be rude. If GIL HIMSELF had produced a wiggle baby then I'd most definitely neuter him, but as it is I see it only as a result of the inbreeding and not something that can definitively prove Gil as a "100% Wiggle Het", especially since we have no proof that there ARE hets since it was only brought out by inbreeding so far and genetic defects are NOT like the leu gene. They are something that ALL creatures have, no matter what. There ain't nothing you can do about it except to take care in how you pair your gliders and NOT inbreed. The only way to get rid of them completely would be to do what they do with lab mice: inbreed to 20+ generations to be able to fully cull out any and all possible hereditary genetic conditions.

So, unless someone plans to intentionally inbreed gliders just to find what lurks under the surface and then CONTINUE to inbreed the gliders to make sure it's really, truelly gone...then, well, there's really not much else that can be done aside form careful breeding and making sure that our customers are well-informed.

Personally, I think the glider community would benefit more from constant reminders about not inbreeding/line-breeding then from a thread that just names a bunch of gliders based on a THEORY that ends up making people panic.

Lastly, it's good to know your true intentions: to "out" people. I thought it was supposed to be about informing people about a possible genetic defect, but from what you're saying it was actually just to inform people about what breeders were "conspiring" against them. *rolls eyes*
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:31 AM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I'm now done with this. I don't feel this thread needs my involvement any longer.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:32 AM

Quote:
Drama Posts
We have repeatedly told the members of GliderCENTRAL we do not want any drama being brought and posted here. Well for the most part some have listened, and others haven't and that is getting out of hand. Failing to abide by our requests are a violation of rule 4. Yes we all know there is drama everywhere. GliderCENTRAL will not be the mid grounds for everyone to post about the drama no matter what it is or who is saying it. GliderCENTRAL is here for one reason and one reason only, to help the gliders and their owners and nothing more. Drama only takes away from gliders and their owners who need help. We have asked many times to leave the drama off, but it seems that some are just not listening. So now whats going to happen now? If you make a post about the drama, feed into the drama posts, instead of hitting the notify mod button so the post can be reviewed and removed, your account will be suspended for a period of time to be determined by the admins. We do not care what drama anyone is saying about anything, the bottom line is do not post about the drama here at GliderCENTRAL. This is not being done to keep people from talking, it is being done because we do not want drama here. We are sorry to have to do this, but we tried to ask nicely but that failed. KarenE even made a similar post earlier today stating. Drama posts WILL result in the loss of posting privileges for a time to be determined by Administration.


Quote:
Rule 4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.


This thread will be kept open as long as the rules are followed.

THIS WILL BE THE ONLY WARNING POSTED.

Some personal issues have been worked out. Others, I am not sure, but I will tell you up front, we will not tolerate Mod Notifications simply to tell on each other. If you cannot conduct yourselves in an adult manner, STAY OUT OF THE TOPIC.
Posted By: finnessa

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Quote:
That as a result of this research

What research was conducted?
Is this what you refer to as research above:
Quote:
I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Quote:
Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

I agree.
So, I am going to repeat the same questions I asked on TSS:

I do not feel we should be telling everyone to go neuter gliders right away. Why don't I feel that way? Well, because no one so far has answered my questions or PROVEN to me that this is a genetic flaw attached to this line rather than a randomly occurring flaw or some other issue all together.

Let's look at the science of this and just get some questions answered. I am NOT a geneticist, nor am I a breeder, so I honestly do not know the answers to these questions. What I do know a little something about is research. So, if we are going to say that we have conducted research and that gliders are KNOWN carriers of a genetic flaw, then I expect that these questions are going to be easily answered by those who conducted the research. Having these questions answered would certainly help us better understand the issue at hand and act intelligently, with full knowledge of the subject matter rather than based on a panic response.

* How many gliders were tested? How many show this "wiggle gene?"
* How do we KNOW It is attached to a gene?
* How long did this research take?
* Who conducted the research? What are their credentials?
* Was genetic mapping done? IF so, by whom? Where? Can we have more done?
* Were gliders OUTSIDE of this line tested?
* What sort of testing was conducted? What tests were run? What did they show?

* What other possibilities for the behavior of these gliders were explored? I have gliders who exhibit these exact same symptoms, but are not in this line. I kNOW the cause of their neurological issues. It is not genetic. So, with ALL of these gliders, were tests run to rule out toxins, malnutrition, parasites, bacterial infections, deformity, etc?

* How do we know this is not just a randomly occurring event? That it is only attached to the Frodo line? Were ALL OTHER lines tested (including those outside this community?) Or at least a large enough sample of other lines to rule out the occurrence of this in other lines?

* Are there absolutely no examples of this happening outside of this line? How do we know/conclude this? Where is this information?

* Have we allowed for the fact that most of the gliders living as pets in this country are NOT represented by the members of these online forums? If so, how did that impact the test results and conclusions?

* Is it possible that this is something that attaches to the WF gene(s) and not just to the Frodo line? How do we KNOW this?

I guess what I am saying is I hear a lot of talk about KNOWING and FOR SURE and GENETIC MUTATION and I don't know how we got to this point. HOW do we KNOW FOR SURE this is a GENETIC MUTATION attached only to this line?

And, if we have this proof - if the research was conducted and is backed by sound scientific principal and data, then WHY was it not presented to the community as such?

Just listing names and stating that you KNOW something does not make it a fact. Calling something research does not make it scientific or validate your conclusions.
Considering my role in this community, Yes, I'm gonna ask for proof. I think this is necessary BEFORE we start suggesting people stop breeding gliders or neuter an entire line of gliders.

There is an issue with some of these joeys - that is not in question. The question at hand is: Is this genetic? If so, is it linked to the WF gene, the Frodo line or something else all together? Can this just be a randomly occurring event? Could there be another explanation/cause?



I would also like to hear the answers to these questions. The claim of research done and not backed up is just wrong. If you want the "TRUTH" to be out there shouldn't this so called research be too?

Sorry Val for quoting your whole post but there is just to much importance in it to cut anything out!
Posted By: KarenE

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:34 AM

Some of you seemed to have missed that post above, so I am giving you the courtesy of posting it ONE FINAL TIME.
Posted By: DavidW

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:38 AM

Bravo Ness!!
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:41 AM

I feel the need to explain the significance of the COI.

That number is in relation to the POSSIBILITY of a genetic defect surfacing in your glider. If you look at a glider's COI explanation on the pedigree, it says what percentages are due to what gliders. So, a glider may have a 0.18% chance of having a defect from Frodo, that is a risk that is taken when breeding. The same goes for any other lines. I have heard of other isolated genetic anomolies due to inbreeding. That is why COIs differ. A glider with a 25% COI has a 1:4 chance of actually having a defect. Most animals AND humans carry different recessive defects, that is why we promote breeding out and being careful about lines. The risk is always there.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Nicole are you neutering Gil or just putting him with another glider? I was under the assumption from your post that you were neutering all males involved in the issue, especially since you feel so badly about what has happened.


I've neutered the male that produced a wiggle baby, which is Smidgin. I also neutered some of my other boys(for personal reasons, not because of the "wiggle gene"). I have not, however, neutered Gil. Nor will I be placing him with a different mate.

Why would I neuter Gil? He hasn't produced a wiggle baby. The only gliders that produced a wiggle baby was the inbred pair: Smidgin and Kitty.

We have no for-sure proof that this gene is even being passed from Frodo. It's only being ASSUMED because Frodo is the only common ancestor in all the lines. However, keep in mind that the WF lines are crossed with every other color out there AND they are the ones that have been inbred/line-bred the most because they're the most common of the "colored" gliders. So, honestly, it'd be hard to find an "oopsy" inbred pair(with lineage) that DIDN'T have WFs in the line! For all we know, it's a coincidence.

Also, there are alot of supposed "wiggle hets" that have been paired closely with other supposed "wiggle hets" and yet no wiggle babies have ever been born of those pairs. Why is that?

If the wiggle gene really is a het-type gene and is SO strong as to pass all the way down through 8 generations, then why isn't it strong enough to effect more "wiggle het" pairs? Why aren't their more wiggle babies out there?

Anyways, I'm not going to do what some people are doing and panic and make a rash decision(like neutering my amazing, loving boy) based on a HUNCH that gliders MIGHT be hets. Sorry, but I feel that more research needs to be done on the subject.

BTW, Gil has been paired with a Frodo-line glider before(Silvara) AND his offspring have been paired with frodo-line gliders and NEVER has there been problems with those joeys. So, until I know more, I'm not neutering him. I will, however, continue to keep all my customers full-informed just as I've been doing. I feel that they're grown up enough to make informed decisions on their own based upon the FACTS.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 12:52 AM

Ok, I just want to simplify things here to make sure I'm understanding.

The wiggle babies born were from inbred gliders. (Nicole's gliders and Beth's)

There are other gliders that display this behavior that are not related to the Frodo line. (Val has some?)

So my question is this. How in the world can the assumption be made that the Frodo line is tainted?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:02 AM

PLEASE!!! Let's keep this discussion civil.
Rosie's breeder and I have been communicating thru email and neither of us are angry with each other. She has been very forthcoming with information and willing to answer my questions. I just found about about this yesterday, so noone here can possibly be more shocked about all this than me. We need to handle this as mature adults rather than children, so let's not fuss and cause this thread to be locked.
If you care at all about gliders, let's do our best to keep this thread open so we can all learn about this issue that our gliders face.
There are bound to be more genetic issues in future generations so let's all decide now that we will handle this as adults. We need to set an example of how future issues like this should be handled.
We all have to decide for ourselves which gliders to breed and what risks we are willing to take. If we keep the information available to everyone, we will all be better able to make choices for our gliders and assess the risk we take when putting breeding pairs together.
I think it would be a great idea for the moderators to add a permanent factual unbiased message to the breeding forum so everyone has access to the information about the wiggle gene.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:02 AM

Teresa, at this time there is concern with the Frodo line because the two pairs that account for the six joeys are all from that line. The parents themselves are not inbred but crossing them back to each other in the case of Nicoles gliders causes the joeys to be inbred.

My wiggle joey is out of a pair from that large rescue I took in several years ago, one of the females had him and his brother IP. Teresa I'm sure you remember "The Peter Pan Gang". Val does have gliders with similar symptoms as these wiggle babies, her gliders though are not due to inbreeding rather to nutritional issues and injury.
Posted By: cryingoutloud37

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:09 AM

Honestly I would like to say at first I was kinda freaked out......THE videos are really sad frown But this post was a good thing....it brought something to light that not many breeders knew about! I thank everyone involved. I thank everyone for your honesty and your personal opinions. As long as a breeder if they choose to continue to breed their ( wiggle hets ) disclose the fact that their joey's may or may not carry the (wiggle het) I believe it is ok. The problem is not that their may or may not be wiggle hets. The problem is if people are unaware and not educated they could poor decisions when pairing up this line. I didn't know this genetic defect existed.... I have a 25% possible wiggle het paired with a really low possible wiggle het. I am unsure what to do at this point? dunno But I am happy to have the knowledge from this thread regardless! thumb
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:09 AM

Does anyone know if there are any reputable research labs that are currently, or have in the past, studied/researched gliders and glider genetics?
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:17 AM

Quote:
at this time there is concern with the Frodo line because the two pairs that account for the six joeys are all from that line. The parents themselves are not inbred but crossing them back to each other in the case of Nicoles gliders causes the joeys to be inbred.


Ok...here's my point.

These gliders (the wiggles) were a result of close inbreeding. I believe that the fact they are from the Frodo line is a coincidence. I believe this could have just as easily happened with ANY inbred gliders regardless of their lineage. I don't believe there are "wiggle hets" but that the wiggle joeys were caused by close inbreeding.

We all discourage inbreeding because of the potential for genetic issues happening with the joeys. I know I've taken in rescues that were brother/sister pairs that had joeys ip when I got them. In most cases, the joeys were pulled before they came oop. One set of rescues I took in, with joeys ip, rejected the joeys and I lost one and hand raised the other. I don't know if the parents were related or not. Again, a reason we say not to breed rescues because we don't know if they are related and inbreeding can cause genetic defects.

I feel that at this time to state it "is the Frodo line" that has the defect is irresponsible and that is what has caused the panic. Frodo has MANY MANY (possibly in the hundredds) decendents and yet there are just 6 of these "wiggle" joeys from two inbred matings. I don't think it is as simple as crossing a Frodo line back to a Frodo line that caused this. I believe it is from CLOSE inbreeding (as in Nicole's, uncle/niece).

And Nicole is doing the responsible thing and NOT allowing these offspring (or the parents) to continue to breed. And if I remember right, Beth wanted the parents of her "wiggle" babies to be removed from breeding as well because of the close inbreeding.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Quote:
That as a result of this research

What research was conducted? Ask Beth, she would know more about this then I would because she's trying to work with a woman in OR who's researching the issue due to it's prominence in OR's glider population.
Is this what you refer to as research above:
Quote:
I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Quote:
Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

I agree.
So, I am going to repeat the same questions I asked on TSS:

I do not feel we should be telling everyone to go neuter gliders right away. Why don't I feel that way? Well, because no one so far has answered my questions or PROVEN to me that this is a genetic flaw attached to this line rather than a randomly occurring flaw or some other issue all together.

Let's look at the science of this and just get some questions answered. I am NOT a geneticist, nor am I a breeder, so I honestly do not know the answers to these questions. What I do know a little something about is research. So, if we are going to say that we have conducted research and that gliders are KNOWN carriers of a genetic flaw, then I expect that these questions are going to be easily answered by those who conducted the research. Having these questions answered would certainly help us better understand the issue at hand and act intelligently, with full knowledge of the subject matter rather than based on a panic response.

* How many gliders were tested? None so far, that I know of. How many show this "wiggle gene?" 8 joeys total: 3 here, 3 at Beth's(1 passed away), Adri's, and 1 other that belongs to a breeder who asked me not to share the information(it was from a first-cousin pairing which only bred that one time and was immediately separated afterwards). There are also the joeys in Oregon, but you'd have to contact Beth for more info on them.
* How do we KNOW It is attached to a gene? We don't.
* How long did this research take? -
* Who conducted the research? - What are their credentials? -
* Was genetic mapping done? - IF so, by whom? - Where? - Can we have more done? -
* Were gliders OUTSIDE of this line tested? What do you mean?...
* What sort of testing was conducted? - What tests were run? - What did they show? -

* What other possibilities for the behavior of these gliders were explored? I've done fecal checks on all my gliders multiple times over the past year and nothing was out of the norm with my pair. My gliders are also in with all my others and I feel that if it were something environmental or bacterial then it'd be effecting more then just this one pair. I can't speak for the other breeders involved, but I do know that the breeder of Beth's joeys was having mold issues at the time. It was ruled out as the cause though because the pair was moved to a different location and still produced babies with the wiggle syndrome.

* How do we know this is not just a randomly occurring event? That it is only attached to the Frodo line? Were ALL OTHER lines tested (including those outside this community?) Or at least a large enough sample of other lines to rule out the occurrence of this in other lines? Honestly, I'm starting to have my doubts that it originated from Frodo because of Adri's pair and all the gliders in OR having the issue as well. Also, considering the thousands of WFs out there and the fact that there are only 3 cases of it occurring in the WF lines and all 3 cases being inbreeding...It makes it impossible to have a for-sure decision about it.

* Are there absolutely no examples of this happening outside of this line? Yes, there are, in OR and with Adri's pair(although, they have no lineage...) How do we know/conclude this? We can't conclude it until we know more. Where is this information? -

* Have we allowed for the fact that most of the gliders living as pets in this country are NOT represented by the members of these online forums? If so, how did that impact the test results and conclusions? I've considered this as well, which is why I feel it's not fair to for-sure point to Frodo because you have to realize that these are the only joeys like this that have occurred IN THE COMMUNITY and the majority of the breeders in the community breed colored lines and all of the colored lines have WF in them. So, it's possible that it's simply coincidental since the majority of the glider community's breeding pairs are from WF lines. And the fact that it hasn't occurred MORE often in the WF lines(even with all the crazy breedings some breeders have), it makes me want to do alot more research before coming to a definite conclusion.


* Is it possible that this is something that attaches to the WF gene(s) and not just to the Frodo line? How do we KNOW this? Not sure. More research would need to be done to find out. Also, keep in mind that all the WF lines are likely related at some point in the past, so if doing research like this it might be best to consider the WF lines as a whole rather then as separate lines.

I guess what I am saying is I hear a lot of talk about KNOWING and FOR SURE and GENETIC MUTATION and I don't know how we got to this point. HOW do we KNOW FOR SURE this is a GENETIC MUTATION attached only to this line? We don't. All that we know FOR SURE is that it occurs with inbreeding. Perhaps it could even be something that gliders are simply genetically prone to as a sort of natural selection. There's a thousand different theories we could come up with and that would all seem somewhat sound, but the truth is that we know so little at this point and the only pairings we have to go by are compromised due to the inbreeding being a big factor(and possibly the ONLY factor).

And, if we have this proof - if the research was conducted and is backed by sound scientific principal and data, then WHY was it not presented to the community as such? -

Just listing names and stating that you KNOW something does not make it a fact. Calling something research does not make it scientific or validate your conclusions.
Considering my role in this community, Yes, I'm gonna ask for proof. I think this is necessary BEFORE we start suggesting people stop breeding gliders or neuter an entire line of gliders.

There is an issue with some of these joeys - that is not in question. The question at hand is: Is this genetic? If so, is it linked to the WF gene, the Frodo line or something else all together? Can this just be a randomly occurring event? Could there be another explanation/cause?


I hope that helped at least a little bit, although I doubt it did because there's just so little known about it that there's not much info to give. :\

I don't know how much it will reveal or if it will reveal anything at all, but I'm planning on getting a blood panel done on the male joey when he gets neutered. I wanted to get one done on Smidgin, his dad, but had to replace my car's back tires and didn't have the money and I didn't want to waste a moment longer on neutering him for fear of them having more joeys. :\

Adri, you seem to know quite alot about genetics and it also seems that you might have in your mind a good way to start the research?... If so, could you recommend some good ways that we could find out more from these babies? Now that they're here and that they were brought into this world then, hopefully, we can learn more from them to help prevent any more babies from being produced.

Honestly though, I doubt that we'll be able to find out very much until autopsies are done when these little ones have passed. frown
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:18 AM

Karen there has been no genetic testing or mapping done on gliders to date. I have contacted a genetics lab and I am awaiting information from them as to what this will entail, as a lot will go into this. Many of the major breeders have been willing to have their gliders used for this testing, including myself. I have no idea how many gliders of each line will be required nor do I know at this time what the cost will be. But it is in the works at least...I also want to add that this came up for the better understanding of our breeding lines and not directly related to the wiggle babies, but they will also be included in the test group IF this proves to something feasible in regards to cost and animals needed.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:22 AM

DNA testing on humans to determine paternity is about $300 per test.

The DNA maping on gliders, to do what really needs to be done to understand all this will cost tens of thousands of dollars. AND it may not tell us anything specific to the "wiggle" joeys defects other than they are inbred (and we already know that).
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:24 AM

Guys I have to step away for a little while as I have to tend to my kids and animals but I will be back shortly.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:25 AM

Thanks Adri
please let me know of any developments in this. I may be willing to allow Rosie to be used in the testing as well, but it would depend on what it involves. I don't want Rosie to be a pincusion ;-)
Posted By: Chris_R

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:57 AM

I have a question.....If this is occuring frequently in the Oregon joeys are all of these related to Frodo also?...or is this in fact, just another case to show why inbreeding should not be done
Posted By: Feather

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
DNA testing on humans to determine paternity is about $300 per test.

The DNA maping on gliders, to do what really needs to be done to understand all this will cost tens of thousands of dollars. AND it may not tell us anything specific to the "wiggle" joeys defects other than they are inbred (and we already know that).


Sadly this is true. Organizations a big as the Quarter Horse and Paint Horse Associations have the funds available for genetic mapping and testing when horses start being born with afflictions that appear to come from specific blood lines.

It would be great to have the funds to do genetic research on gliders. It would open huge doors as far as coat pattern, colors, problems like the wiggle affliction and so much more.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris_R
I have a question.....If this is occuring frequently in the Oregon joeys are all of these related to Frodo also?...or is this in fact, just another case to show why inbreeding should not be done


As far as I know, no. There ARE WFs in Oregon though, but I have no idea if the joeys are from those lines. I believe they're just grays that have been inbred badly. You'd have to contact Beth(Kitsune) to find out more.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 02:17 AM

Honestly, as a person who hangs out in chat on GG, it's hard to warn people the dangers of breeding without lineage when there's nothing PHYSICAL to show them the dangers/possibilities.

Trust me, we get a lot of people who come in asking about breeding, and don't listen to much of what we have to say about lineage, saying it really isn't THAT big of an issue.

It IS.

I had a gal that I rehomed two of my rescues to WITH the stipulation the male would be neutered when he was four weeks old.

This is a GREAT post that I've bookmarked. I've also bookmarked the videos.

There's no lineage on him, and she had NO lineage on her females, and now they're breeding. It's out of my hands, and I'm disgusted.
I will be emailing her the link to this thread and those videos as a VISUAL aid to my warnings.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 03:25 AM

My mouse is lost and I can't keep up, my finger is tired. LOL.

First off, the 'wiggle gene' in a raw form was talked about at length here and LGG, Nicole has posted about Sheila and Beth's issues with those gliders on LGG, Beth posted her, it's been on AC, it was probably on many boards. It was many many years ago and it was Beth's hunch that a particular line was bad, was it the gliders or was it inbreeding? No one really knew. Now that Nicole has reproduced the same type of joey with the same inbreeding, we still must ask, is it inbreeding or is it that line?

I have many gliders from Frodo's line, some only a few generations away from it, over the years I have had many many joeys born, none wiggle.

There was no cover up, unles it was a recent cover up with the new joeys born. But breeders that have been around forever knew about Beth's gliders.

Nicole, you had a few unrelated joeys with neurological problems last year, there were videos of them too, trips the the vet and symptoms cleared up without treatment. Were these joeys last year any relation to the new sets of joeys?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 03:37 AM

One of the ways that the APHA and the AQHA raise the funds to do the genetic research is by charging a fee to register horses. The Pet Glider Database is a great start, but we need to take it a step further and have a registry that charges a small fee to register gliders into a Sugar Glider Registry. This would require sopmeone with the computer skills and appropriate computers to set it up. People would NOT be allowed to enter their own gliders into the registry. They would pay the fee, fill out an application, and submit the lineage information.
There are also other fund raisers held to raise additional money.
We would need to have several people iinvolved to handle this. Members of the glider registry would be allowed to vote on rules/requrements to get this set up and decide what the fees should be.
All of this won't work at all unless the breeders and owners of gliders are willing to pay and register their gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 03:48 AM

I don't think that's the best idea, but I do think there should be some sort of 'modding' of the registry.

My Tempo is in the registry by my own doing. Her parents were placed together as breeders by somebody who wanted to be a west coast breeder, however none of them were registered. I registered her, and her parents, who are now owned by a friend of mine, registered their new joey. They were already in the database, only because the gal before us got them from their 3rd home.

I have no intentions of breeding, but, heaven forbid I ever need to rehome my Tempo, and the person who took her was a breeder, they'd need that lineage.

Basically, I listed her in case something happens. I feel like in order to help prevent any more of this gliders too closely inbred, we need to take the first step by registering (PROPERLY) our gliders, even though we have ZERO intentions of having to rehome them and there being a chance of them being bred.

I don't know how much sense THAT makes, but in my mind I know what I'm talking about. lol
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris_R
I have a question.....If this is occuring frequently in the Oregon joeys are all of these related to Frodo also?...or is this in fact, just another case to show why inbreeding should not be done


After reading through this entire thread, it seems to be proof that inbreeding should not be done. With the quantity of joeys Frodo produced, then his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc., etc., it seems that statistically speaking, this would not be an effected line. Especially when all 8 are NOT from the Frodo line. If it were a heterozygous gene, we would see a much higher percentage of offspring with the affliction.

JMO, but I don't see the need to retire/neuter gliders from the Frodo line.

ETA: I have breeding gliders with Frodo in their lineage. I was not aware of a "potential problem". But again, after reading all of the information provided, I don't feel that it's a Frodo genetic defect. Therefore, I am not altering any of my breeding pairs.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:22 AM

Karen, there was some that were going to try to set up a registry like what you are talking about but really, there just isn't enough interested in paying to register their gliders. I know I wouldn't. I don't pay to register my dogs either (but I also don't breed my dogs). As of right now, we do have the Pet Glider Database and yes, it has it's flaws but Pricilla is very good about correcting any "errors" when they are brought to her attention.

I agree with Shelley. I just think there are way to many decendents from Frodo that are healthy and produced healthy gliders to say that based on these few, it is a problem with the Frodo line. To me, based on what has been stated, it is clear to me that it is evidence of why inbreeding should not be done.

Now, on the inbreeding question...how close is too closely related? Is 7 generations out considered related/inbreeding? Or do we go by the COI to determine that?

Just what is acceptable?

I know my producing gliders have and are producing healthy gliders and while I may be getting some neutered soon, it won't be because of this "wiggle" issue.
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Now, on the inbreeding question...how close is too closely related? Is 7 generations out considered related/inbreeding? Or do we go by the COI to determine that?

Just what is acceptable?


I believe that second cousin's, genetically speaking, is a safe pairing. Ethically, that's your own opinion and may be frowned upon by many. It has been shown, at least with this defect, that first cousins are too close, and it may be shown in the future that second cousins are too close as well. But as we stand now, it is thought to be safe. In any animal- not just gliders.



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:58 AM

Thanks Teresa
I do think that this problem only seems to occur when inbreeding is involved. I'm not saying that all inbred gliders from the Frodo line will have this problem, but I do see that inbreeding is more likely to result in genetic issues as oppposed to breeding out.
I'm just really glad to know that my joey will most likely be okay.
I think everyone has to decide for themselves how closely related is too closely related to be an acceptable breeding pair.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 06:28 AM

I have also heard of an isolated incident of another genetic defect produced from inbreeding. I won't share the exact situation, as I am not very familliar with it, but it was inbreeding among the leu genes that caused a glider to develope incorrectly and die at age 2.
I am also POSITIVE that there are other genetic defects that have not been identified or made note of that do exist. How many gliders die without a necropsy? One of my rescues died, and we never determined the cause (even with a necropsy)... could it have been from inbreeding of the greys that produced her, I don't know. We won't know unless it happens to her sister as well and it can be documented.

My point is this: wiggle syndrome is a side effect of inbreeding... as is sterility... as are SO MANY other potential defects that we haven't even discovered yet. Some may just be random alignments of several mutated genes that only line up occasionally, and some may be inheritable (sterility). It's our job as breeders to be responsible enough to try to weed those genes/problems/issues out of the population. But that won't happen with pointing at those who had the defect. I think that ALL of the gliders born with ANY defect should have that noted in the pedigree, even if they are pet only, so that we can more easily catch trends and be aware of defects. So, Nicole would put her wiggle babies into the pedigree... even as one joey, noting that there were 3 all born with a neurological defect. If it gets documented, then we can more easily see a trend. BUT I also agree that it is hard to actually put them into the pedigree because many might look at that and automatically assume that Nicole is a bad breeder for putting that pair together... without considering the exact situation that caused the inbreeding and that she has resolved it.

EDIT: Sterility was created due to inbreeding, then it was able to be passed on through the offspring. I do not know a SINGLE breeder that would dare to breed a wiggle baby. And that would be the only way of showing whether the gene was truly genetic... breed a wiggle baby to a glider right out of Frodo (farther up the line) and see if they produced wiggle babies as well. But NONE of us would knowingly do that to the gliders, as we all want the best for them.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing

Now, on the inbreeding question...how close is too closely related? Is 7 generations out considered related/inbreeding? Or do we go by the COI to determine that?


Teresa 7 generations out is NOT inbreeding in anyway. BUT, in the case mentioned they took gliders what were 7 generations out from Frodo and bred them together. Now the thing is these individual gliders were first cousins. Individually they had 0% COI but when paired together the joeys were a 6.2% COI. See the lineage here
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:16 PM

Adri,

First, let me explain a little about me. I'm a genealogist. I have spent more time than I want to admit tracing my own "lineage". So I am very familiar with how the family trees work. It is often very confusing and most easily figured out if you use a chart.

While on a coi % level, these two may share enough dna to be close to the same as first cousins, they are NOT first cousins at all. That is a mis-lable of their relationship.

These joeys are actually first cousins once removed.

For those that want to really know how their gliders family trees match up on a genealogy level (family relationships) you can use this Family Relationship Chart

With the family tree given for these joeys, it isn't Frodo that is the tie, it is Galthanas. He is Smidgin's father and Kitty's grandfather. Yes, it a very close relationship and inbreeding.
Posted By: Chris_R

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:18 PM

I truely believe this is a inbreeding issue rather than a "bad line" issue as there are common greys with no color lines seen with this condition. We might find with mapping that certain lines are more prone (for lack of a better word) to expessing this wiggle/wobble syndrome when inbreeding occurs but its still an inbreeding issue IMHO....
Posted By: gliderma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:20 PM

It would seem that any one of us who has several gliders, has Frodo in the background. I know I do and have never had a wiggle joey. I did neuter Mshki because he was rejected and his twin brother died at 2 wks. oop for no apparent reason. The next set of twins this pair had, also died within 48 hrs. of coming oop. This mother is no longer being bred. These joey's were not wiggle joey's nor were they inbred, but I want to make the point that there are so many things that can go wrong when breeding that we don't understand, it doesn't make sense to go ahead with breeding when we already know there's something wrong. I am glad for this thread as it does get everyone thinking & talking. I hope it can stay civil and not cause drama. We all need to be able to give our opinion as we have a right to that, but not by defaming one another. If you resort to name calling or finger pointing it becomes juvenile and credibility is lost. Simple statements of fact are what is needed. I would love to learn more about the whole genetic thing myself and think it would be awesome if someone would look at my lines and tell me more!
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 04:24 PM

Lynn,
use that chart that I posted the link to. Input your gliders lineages in to the appropriate places and take a look.

If you have a common ancestor, even as far back as 8 generations, you can use that chart to see how they are really related to each other. It doesn't give a coi% but it actually gives a "label" to their relationship.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 05:24 PM

Is there something in Frodo's line? Yes, prob. something small but there. Where the problem is is when you pair closely related gliders, If each related glider carries a small flaw, together it can combine and make a large problem. Such as his wiggle thing.

Other closely related gliders not from the Frodo line, if they have some small gene that does not express itself visually, if that line was also closely inbreed... they too could come up with a genetic defect. Maybe not a wiggle issue, maybe a internal issue that can't be seen, maybe sterility, maybe .... could be anything. That is the reason inbreeding should not happen, not in the Frodo line, not in any line.

The only thing proven here is that we can see a gentic flaw in this closely inbreed line. There was a result, good to know. Many years ago it was only in one pair, no one knew if that was a fluke or related from that inbreeding. It was guess that inbreeding caused the problem. Now that a simular inbreeding has resulted in a like problem, it only makes it clearer that there is a problem, not only with inbreeding but inbreeding that particular line.

But just because you can't see a flaw in other closely related inbreed gliders, it doesn't mean there isn't a problem. It might be a flaw that causes early deaths. We don't have the funds or the research to show every problem. Avoid the flaws you can see, and the ones you can't but NOT inbreeding any line. Esp. the Frodo line. because that is something that has been stupidly duplicated. Great, now we know. Don't do it again.


So if you have Frodo way back in your line, there is no need to panic. Most colored gliders, wf and mos, will have Frodo in their past. Just because you can't see it on the PSG database... doesn't mean he wasn't there. Severl of us breeders keep our lines back as far as possible, they just don't show up online and I promise you... Frodo has hundreds of desendants, if not more. If you have a close relation to Frodo, don't pair it to it's aunt, uncle, grandpa, sister, brother, mother, father. But then you shouldn't be pairing any joey to it's aunt, uncle, grandpa, sister, brother, mother father. There is no secret there. We have discouraged that for many many years. We can not undo the damgage that was done in the past when breeders were not as educated as they are now. Dog breeders still do it, most don't, all shouldn't, but we can't change the past.

And, if you have gliders that are related, don't house them together no mater how broke you are. If they have to live in a travel cage, a daytripper, whatever, isn't that better than producing geneticly damanged joeys that will have a difficult life at best? Isn't producing this type of joey more damaging in the long rung than seperating bonded joeys? They can always be reintroduced once you have the money to neuter.
Posted By: LadyRaven

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 05:29 PM

Has it been proven that this is a true recessive gene?

Often, it may not be a clear cut case between recessive and dominate, and there may be gene penetrance issues as well as multiple gene interactions. Has anyone run the statistics, or at least done a genetic tree?

Also, it is important to remember that the same sponaneous mutation may arise more than once in a population. This is more common in large populations and with point mutations.

However, the breeding of any known carriers of such a mutation, and adding their offspring to the 'genetic pool' will absolutely increase the incidence of both carriers and those with the phenotype, and may eventually affect those animals that are not closely inbred.

Part of the point of tracking lineages in animals is to be able to isolate and remove certain detrimental genetic traits.
Posted By: nancy1202

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 06:11 PM

One of my breeding gliders, Lukas (Gilthanas' son), was mentioned prominently in the first post in this thread as being a "KNOWN 50% het carrier" for the wiggle gene. Yeah, I was a little panicked and taken aback since I had just learned about this a few weeks ago. He is paired with a lion who in fact does have Frodo in her lineage, 6 generations back.

They have had 3 healthy joeys to-date, with two more IP. Mom did have mastitis with the last set, and the joeys had to be pulled at 5 weeks OOP, but that wasn't due to any condition with the joeys. Many of you met them at the SGGA and they will be coming to FIGG with me in a few weeks.

If a pairing is going to produce this wiggle gene, wouldn't 0 out of 3 be a pretty good indicator that they won't?

I have no intention of breeding him or any of his offspring with a close relative. His only son is scheduled to be neutered tomorrow morning so he can join one of Melinda's non-breeding cages. She has gotten pretty attached to the little guy since hand-feeding him! This was decided long before I had any inkling of this supposedly genetic condition.

Lukas will not be neutered. I see no reason to at this time. It makes sense to me that the wiggle condition is most likely a result of inbreeding, as can be many other obvious and obscure genetic anomalies. Only 3 pairs have produced this out of hundreds or thousands of descendants. I'm not convinced that there haven't been more occurrences. Many breeders have "oops" matings. Not so many inform the community by posting about them.
Posted By: CandyOtte

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 08:04 PM

OK, I am not going back to read 5 pages here (I have read most of this on another board) but I would like to share a couple thoughts.

IF this is truly involving a recessive gene then the expression of the 'wiggle gene' can be seen in the offspring of any glider pair where each parent is a carrier of the gene.

Will all pairs that have two 'carrier' parents have joeys that have the 'wiggle syndrome'? NO. Each individual joey has a 25% chance of getting a copy of the gene from both parents and showing the syndrome. Each individual joey from the same pair has a 75% chance of looking normal. Any of the normal joeys have will either have no copy of the gene (25% chance) or have one copy (50%) and be a carrier like their parents. It is possible that some affected joeys are non-survivors - the ones that vanish before coming oop or the ones that the parents dispose of within a short time oop.

The current standard for breeders is to look at lineage for a pair of gliders - ancestors only - to figure out if the gliders are closely related - or if they do have a COMMON ANCESTOR - if it is enough generations back to be considered 'safe' to breed the pair.

The problem appears when that common ancestor has a recessive gene that can potentially pass unseen through a number of generations before a pair of gliders each carrying the gene are bred and have a joey with the problem. Such a pair could also have all perfectly healthy joeys - but some may be carriers into the next generation.

The Pet Glider Database is a wonderful tool to compare the ancestors of two gliders. It does not however allow us to trace the DESCENDANTS of a glider with a potential recessive gene that results in something like the 'wiggle syndrome' being discussed here.

By charting all of the DESCENDANTS of a glider with a possible problem gene (in this case FRODO) and flagging the joeys showing this problem and any 'lost' joeys as possibly having the problem then the pattern of inheritance of the recessive trait can be seen in multiple joeys that are distantly related by several generations but all connected to the original carrier by other gliders that have inherited the gene and passed it on to their apparently normal offspring.

This type descendant chart could be evaluated by a geneticist to determine if there is or is not a pattern that fits the recessive gene pattern.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 08:10 PM

i agree nancy. how many gliders are out there with this problem as we know of only 2 or 3 breeders so far. has this happened with other lines besides the frodo line and i also wonder if the wiggle problem has happened without inbreeding and we just havent found out yet.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing

While on a coi % level, these two may share enough dna to be close to the same as first cousins, they are NOT first cousins at all. That is a mis-lable of their relationship.


They're not cousins. They're uncle and niece. However, you're correct, the COI is identical to that of a first-cousin pairing.

BTW, just in case anyone is looking at my database and wondering why some of the gliders have 2 COI's listed, it's because I updated the database to a newer version, one that is able to calculate COIs on it's own(woohoo! dance ). However, a couple were off by a little bit, so I left up the old COI's til I can fix the glitch. tounge So, yeah, just thought I'd mention that in case anyone is like me and loves clicking links and ends up wonder about the double COIs, lol!
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: queenduck

Nicole, you had a few unrelated joeys with neurological problems last year.


I've never had gliders neurological problems until now. I did, however, have 2 gliders(a joey and a completely unrelated female) have a sudden onset of shakes and muscle spams in the form of the clenching of their back feet. In both instances it passed within about an hour or so. It was caused by severe calcium deficiency(confirmed via blood tests) which my vet concluded was because of their diet. Once I switched diets it never happened again.

That must be what you're thinking of because at the time, before blood tests were done, I was [censored] out and thought my gliders were having seizures. Later it was found to be caused by the calcium deficiency.
Posted By: CandyOtte

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 11:05 PM

Nancy

Quote:
If a pairing is going to produce this wiggle gene, wouldn't 0 out of 3 be a pretty good indicator that they won't?


You just need to be aware that IF both of your gliders carry a recessive gene responsible for the 'wiggle syndrome' then each individual joey has a 25% chance of inheriting two copies of the gene. The fact that the first 3 joeys are all normal does not change that percentage for any future individual joeys. It is also possible that even with Frodo as a common ancestor that neither of the parent gliders carry the gene, or if only one does it will remain hidden but could appear in a future generation.

Any pair of gliders that produces a 'wiggle' joey would then be identified CARRIERS of the gene - and at least one of their parents is also a carrier if the gene - in this case it would most likely be the one that was a Frodo descendant.

A geneticist would look at other descendants of the common ancestor (Frodo in this case) in the same generation - to see if there are any other gliders showing the same problems. That is how they work back generation by generation to identify the likely carriers of the recessive gene.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/27/10 11:35 PM

I still don't see this as a genetic defect in Frodo's line. How many Frodo decedents have been bred together throughout the years; "safely" paired together due to the generational gaps between them? Many. Yet still, we only have 3 breeding pairs, that were admittedly inbred, that have produced these few wiggle syndrome joeys.

Again, I think that statistically, this is strictly an inbreeding problem, not an inherited genetic flaw. I'm not a geneticist by far, so I'm only speaking based on my personal opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 01:04 AM

Okay, after asking more questions I have learned that there is not even one single glider with the wiggle problem that was not inbred. Every single wiggle baby is inbred. Can anyone here refute that? I seriously don't think so.
There is absolutely no reason not to breed gliders from the Frodo line.
The person who first sent me a pm telling me about this problem, did not tell the full story even though she knew the truth. This is an *inbreeding* issue! It is not a "Frodo" issue!
I want to publicly apologize to Rosie's breeder for all the fuss that was caused about her gliders. Rosie's breeder is a responsible breeder and she did give full consideration to the pair I purchased. She did her job correctly and responsibly. She has many awesome gliders, and I would not hesitate to buy more gliders from her in the future.

I do feel that it is important to let known breeding issues be known in public so that we can all weigh that information to make good choices when pairing up gliders for breeding purposes. When people don't know the truth, we tend to become very fearful about what *might* be. When we are allowed to know the full story, we can avoid panic and fear and become more educated about breeding our gliders.
We all need to consider how we present information to the glider community. It is inappropriate to give partial information just for the prupose of causing an uproar. If you have a grudge against someone, take it private, do not abuse your privledges here on Glider Central.
the person who first sent me the pm about this issue has completely discredited themself in my eyes.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 01:12 AM

Thank you for that clarification without bringing names into the post, Karen.

I am glad to see this thread has taken a turn from where it started yesterday.

Let's keep it going so that good information can come from this.

Please do not get sidetracked by what may have happened. Just keep it going as it is. Everyone is doing a wonderful job.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 01:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Adri
The only verified instances of wiggle babies that can be traced to any line at all are these :

http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/trial....bmit=Create+Now This pair produced 3 wiggles and this pair http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=352&gens=5&db=sugarglider.dbw who has also produced 3 wiggles.



Nicole is this true? If so, what's the story & the details with the other pair producing 3 joeys with this disorder? I saw your post about why Kitty & Smidgin did but why would the other set produce 3 joeys after having just 1 with this?

Also since a large % of the joeys with this "wiggle" come from your pairings/gliders- could this be something related to the nutritional issues you were suffering with last year? It just seems odd and possibly related to just your gliders/or a nutritional situation & not the genetic line from certain gliders.

You have 2 rejected joeys at the same time, who then later produce multiple joeys with a disorder. Could it be related to rejected joeys breeding? There have been other hand raised joeys that have bred with no issues but you just doubled the possibility of an issue if there could be one with rejected joeys breeding & then the inbreeding just escalated the situation.

I know you've apologized for allowing Smidgin & Kitty to breed but, you have been one to tell people when a pair should not be together unless neutered but yet you keep a very close related pair together then allow them to produce more than once after realizing the devastating results from their first breeding??

So how/why was the other pair allowed to produce 3 joeys with this issue?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:09 AM

Nancy, I know you are not critisizing Nicole so please don't think this post is directed at you.
I can't speak for Nicole, and I will leave it to her to respond to your post.
From what I have learned, this is not an issue stemming from rejected joeys. It's from inbreeding.
If the owner of wiggle babies has not figured out what caused the joeys to be wiggle babies, then yes, there could possibly be more wiggle babies from the same pairing.
It may be that the owner thought it was a nutritional issue. Or an environmental issue (such as mold). I don't believe anyone would intentionally breed wiggle babies.
This is exactly why we need to keep this sort of information available to the entire glider community. When we consider the limited factual information we have on glider genetics, the truth is, this sort of thing could happen to just about anyone who breeds gliders.
We need to keep in mind that hind sight is 20/20. It would be easy to look at what previous breeders have done and critisize their breeding choices, but we owe some respect to those breeders. Those breeders had to figure this stuff out without the benefit of the examples that we have available today. And this wiggle issue is still not a well known issue, so we need to be careful not to point our fingers at people when they didn't know about this any more than we did before the last few days.
These types of breeding issues are bound to crop up in the future. I really hope we can all share what we learn without creating a stigma for the breeders or gliders who discover these issues.
We need to have open communication and mature dialogue about these issues for the benefit of the entire glider community.
Posted By: sugarlope

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:11 AM

The lineages for both pairings are on Nicole's website, but Nicole didn't breed Beatrice and Dante.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Originally Posted By: Adri
The only verified instances of wiggle babies that can be traced to any line at all are these :

http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/trial....bmit=Create+Now This pair produced 3 wiggles and this pair http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=352&gens=5&db=sugarglider.dbw who has also produced 3 wiggles.



Nicole is this true? If so, what's the story & the details with the other pair producing 3 joeys with this disorder? I saw your post about why Kitty & Smidgin did but why would the other set produce 3 joeys after having just 1 with this?

Also since a large % of the joeys with this "wiggle" come from your pairings/gliders- could this be something related to the nutritional issues you were suffering with last year? It just seems odd and possibly related to just your gliders/or a nutritional situation & not the genetic line from certain gliders.

You have 2 rejected joeys at the same time, who then later produce multiple joeys with a disorder. Could it be related to rejected joeys breeding? There have been other hand raised joeys that have bred with no issues but you just doubled the possibility of an issue if there could be one with rejected joeys breeding & then the inbreeding just escalated the situation.

I know you've apologized for allowing Smidgin & Kitty to breed but, you have been one to tell people when a pair should not be together unless neutered but yet you keep a very close related pair together then allow them to produce more than once after realizing the devastating results from their first breeding??

So how/why was the other pair allowed to produce 3 joeys with this issue?


Nancy I want to clarify something, the 1st pair to produce the wiggle joeys did not belong to Nicole nor was she involved in any way shape or form with it. I just happened to use the link to her lineage database. I'm sorry if that caused a confusion.

Her pair Kitty & Smidgin produced 3 joeys with the syndrome.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:25 AM

Oh ok, thanks for the clarification Adri, I was thinking they were Nicoles. These other 3 do not include the 2 Beth has spoken of through the years?
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:36 AM

The two that Beth has are 2 of the 3 from Beatrice & Dante.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: jacknsally
what's the story & the details with the other pair producing 3 joeys with this disorder? I saw your post about why Kitty & Smidgin did but why would the other set produce 3 joeys after having just 1 with this?

You have 2 rejected joeys at the same time, who then later produce multiple joeys with a disorder. Could it be related to rejected joeys breeding? There have been other hand raised joeys that have bred with no issues but you just doubled the possibility of an issue if there could be one with rejected joeys breeding & then the inbreeding just escalated the situation.

So how/why was the other pair allowed to produce 3 joeys with this issue?


The first pair was not mine. The only pair I've ever had produce joeys with the wiggle syndrome is Smidgin and Kitty. The first pair belonged to a breeder a while back. She was sold that pair for breeding. When she got the first joey like that she was told by the breeder that it was a mold issue. So she tried breeding them again(in a completely different location) and when they produced the wiggle baby again she separated them and concluded it was inbreeding and not mold. I believe she then re-paired the female with a different male and they went on to produce normal joeys.

Here's the old thread when Beth first posted about that pairing's joeys 4 and a half years ago: http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/86607/1

To answer your other question, Kitty was not rejected, only Smidgin was. Kitty had to be pulled because her mom got a mating wound and I was worried Kitty would chew on it. I tried letting her mom nurse her while I supervised, but she ended up getting mastitis because she wasn't nursing enough(since joeys would normal be nursing pretty much all day). So I had to pull her completely and handraise her along with Smidgin. Smidgin, on the other hand, we aren't completely sure of the reasons for him being rejected. His mom had been in a quad that didn't work out. She was also a first-time mother. So between her being separated from her mate AND being a first-time mom, I have no way of knowing if there was something wrong with Smidgin or if she simply couldn't handle it all and had to push Smidgin away to give her other baby a better chance. Smidgin's sister was fine and Smidgin himself has grown up to be a normal-sized, healthy glider.

That being said, I'm not sure if Smidgin being rejected played a part in this or not.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 02:59 PM

there seems to be some statements made that this subject was not brought up correctly.
sometime partial information is all you have and should be made public such as this very subject.
alot of us were not aware of this wiggly syndrome and can now make better decisions and ask questions that we didnt know to ask especially for the breeders.

i for one applaud alden for starting this subject. thank you.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit
Posted By: gliderma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 04:39 PM

I would have to agree with Nancy. I have never heard of this condition and am glad to know about it now. I have had a few rejected joey's but never anything like this! I am glad to know about it & would hope that people would go public with anything that could be detrimental. We are all here for the good of the gliders, right?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 05:16 PM

Everybody SHOULD be here for the good of the gliders.

Stepping into the glider world is something I question my state of mind on.

It seems every post with detrimental information turns into a drama thread, and sometimes it seems that people merely want to prove how much better of an owner they are.

I'm glad that the rock throwing is done and this has turned into the conversation it was meant for.

I, too, commend Alden for posting this. Let it be a reminder, NOTHING MORE, of how very important it is to KNOW your gliders lineage and SAFELY pair your gliders if you intend to breed.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 07:18 PM

Nicole you are over your PM limit and I am trying to reach you. If you could contact me I would much appreciate it. I have already sent a message to Beth and have spoken to Adri.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 08:19 PM

Peggy, you can email me at Guerita135@yahoo.com .
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/28/10 08:35 PM

I did thumb
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/29/10 04:29 PM

I recently took on some foster kittens (rescued) with the wobble sydrome ( Cerebellar Hypoplasia ) looks like the same thing to me. They actually get alot better as they get older but it is still considered a handi cap/special needs.

Animals with this sydrome seem to be very happy, Almost kinda "slap happy" = )

But again, Not something we want to see popping up everywhere.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/29/10 04:50 PM

Nevermind. I'll just keep my research to myself.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/29/10 04:52 PM

Nevermind. I'll just keep my research to myself.
Posted By: zookeeper18

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/29/10 08:06 PM

I had no idea what was going on! I thought I was thorough in studying my lineages. It's a shame this was covered up. Thanks for opening this thread. Most of my joeys have pet homes. Only 2 owners are breeding. One of them informed me about this post. Going to inform the other of this thread. Also, going to contact others to make sure and reinterate that lineages are important if they decide to breed. Hopefully, I can get everyone to at least read this thread. You can't watch that video and act irresponsibly. Sane people at least!
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 01:31 AM

Quote:
It's a shame this was covered up.


Once again...this has NEVER been *covered* up by ANYONE....
Posted By: Pockets

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 01:38 AM

Nicole - just a few more links

Merck Vet Manual

Researcher - Genetics San Deigo Zoo

Molecular Genetics Brookfield zoo


Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 01:39 AM

Guerita, you are over your PM limit and I would like to chat with you.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 11:33 AM

Nicole, just checking... has your vet given you a diagnosis of cerebellar abiotrophy, have these new joeys seen a vet? How was this dx made?

I think it is dangerous to dx a glider yourself unles you are also a doctor of veterinary medicine. Others out here may see your term and choose to believe that is exactly what it is and then not do any further research.

Just wondering where you got that information. If you did get that information from a vet can you please explain to us what they said exactly. How they came to that diagnosis. What testing was done. And what is the progression and the prognosis of the disease.

Thanks.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 04:23 PM

Quote:
However, I've been doing some research and I believe(99.9% sure) that what our gliders are showing is Cerebellar Abiotrophy, which has symptoms somewhat similar to Cerebellar Hypoplasia, but CA is a genetic neurological disease.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 04:57 PM

Nevermind. I'll just keep my research to myself.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 05:18 PM

Quote:
it's safe to assume



No way. I've learned the hard way... it's never safe to assume.

All I am saying is if you haven't had it diagnosed by a vet, or have seen a vet, then maybe your links should not be listed as such, they are misleading. It is your assumption that your gliders indeed have CA, but then we all know in the past when we assume without the advice of a vet. we can often be wrong.

I understood that Dr. Tristan felt the first thing to rule out was toxoplasmosis, not that he was diagnosing them or even suspecting them of having toxoplasmosis. In medicine you learn to r/o first before going onto more expensive and invasive proceedures.

When you have flu like symptoms and a headache your doctor doesn't immediately test you for spinal menigitis (but you could have it) they test and treat you for the flu first... then move onto more expensive and invasive procedures.

Have you contacted Dr. Tristan per email and disscussed your recent findings with him? Possibly it is something he had not thought of and might find interesting. He doesn't often read here on GC unles dirrected to a particular post.

Quote:
Conclusion: it's genetic.



You do not have the knowledge or education to conclude that. I suspect it is also genetic OR due to improper breeding by the breeder (inbreeding) but I am also not properly educated, I can not make such a conclusion.

Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 05:40 PM

Quote:
I had Peggy contact me saying that Dr. Tristan believes that the affected gliders have Toxoplasmosis. Which is impossible considering that the gliders involved don't show any signs of the otherhaving any health issues/symptoms that go along with toxoplasmosis. Also, marsupials have shown to be rather sensitive to Toxoplasmosis and it's usually fatal to them.


Nicole, I have tried to stay out of this...except to help but if you are going to state things, please state them correctly...

I sent Dr.Tristan the videos and the lineages on the gliders...

From the materials and research done that Dr. Tristan has access to (that we, you know the non vets) he stated he would recommend to have blood work done and sent to Cornell University to rule out Toxoplasmosis since marsupials are prone to it and he had read an article about a whole colony that had this and the symptoms were similar. He said he would suggest to test for that first to rule it out before going to the next step. And as I had already told you the colony of gliders are still alive.

You told me to ask him if it could be CA and he said it could be a number of things...but yes the possibility was there. You would have to get either a cat scan done or wait until the glider dies and have a Necropsy/Histopath done.

I offered the same deal to you, Adri and Beth...if you are willing to get the blood work done *I* would try to find a way to raise the money for the project so none of you had any out of pocket expense.

Because of what you read on the internet you had concluded that Dr.T was wrong and you were right...

After all, why need a vet when you have the internet....right?

I relayed to you my frustration with how you came up with this conclusion and you did indeed tell me you were trying to contact the person stated above.

With CA you also have stiff legs...your gliders do not have that.

Quote:
Conclusion: it's genetic


Sorry you do not know this to be fact proven... that would be like someone diagnosing someone with CP and saying that is genetic...until you have documented proof on these gliders, you should not make statements such as this.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
It's a shame this was covered up.

Once again...this has NEVER been *covered* up by ANYONE....

When someone decides it is in the general public's best interests NOT to release information, I call that a "cover up."

I'm very glad this discussion is carrying on in the manner in which it is. It seems as if people are now discussing things logically - pros and cons, possibilities, and why those make sense or don't.

That conversation is important, as is vet study, and hopefully and eventual diagnosis.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 05:50 PM

We've posted this before!

4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.

Rule 4 violations:

* First offense = Will be a warning or suspension depending on severity
* Further offense's = actions will be determined by admin.
* Third offense = Will be decided by GliderCENTRAL admin.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 06:22 PM

I have what I call a small vested interest in this because I do have gliders from the Frodo line. Each and every glider I have or have had born from this line are healthy and not one single case of "wiggles".

I am seeing a lot of guessing (which is usually the starting point in an investigation) and some internet researching going on. I admit, I do this too because sometimes things are not as simple as they appear (such as being diagnosed with the flu when you have menigitis). Having other more complitated suggestions for your vet to look into is never bad but posting it as certainty "this is it" can lead to other complications and once again, panic within the glider community.

As someone watching all this unfold, the strongest evidence shown so far is each of these gliders with "wiggle" are from closely inbred pairings. Could there be an issue with the Frodo line? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't believe it is limited to JUST the Frodo line though and I believe it is a result of the close inbreeding. Those are MY conclusions. I brought this up with my vet Tuesday when I took the boys in to be neutered and he, based on what we "know" agrees, that this is most likely caused by inbreeding.

As Peggy and Alicia have said, no one but a vet can make the diagnosis on this and that will require blood work and testing. Even my vet can only speculate because he has not ran any tests on these gliders. Often times a conclusion is reached when the testing have ruled out all other posibilities. I have fibro myalgia. There is NO blood test for this. It is a diagnosis reached by my neurologist after all other possibilities have been ruled out (such as MS and Lupis).

Everyone can go back and forth speculating till the cows come home but without the vet testing, NOTHING can be ruled conclusive.

Anyone watch HOUSE? How often does that team think it is one illness only to be proven wrong? But they keep testing anyway. And this is what needs to be done with these gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing

the strongest evidence shown so far is each of these gliders with "wiggle" are from closely inbred pairings. Could there be an issue with the Frodo line? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't believe it is limited to JUST the Frodo line though and I believe it is a result of the close inbreeding. Those are MY conclusions.


I whole heartedly agree with you Dancing! I believe that this same issue may possibly show up in other lines (other than Frodo) if the gliders are closely inbred.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 08:07 PM

Nicole did not diagnose. She said she "Believes" that she may have found an explanation. She also said she'd follow up with her vet.

She didn't say "Eureka I have found it!" I believe that she is doing what any of us would do: She's looking on the internet, matching symptoms with disorders she sees on the internet, and drawing conclusions for her own beliefs based on her findings. That's the same thing myself and others have done!

My mistake was in stating that my findings were absolute. Nicole did NOT do that - she is just putting out there her working hypothesis. I find the hypothesis and theories to be fascinating and I look forward to hearing her vet's findings. I do NOT think anyone *IS* diagnosing, and I do not believe anyone should be silenced in posting their theories. Nicole has a lot vested in this! I'm very interested to hear what she discovers.

After all - others have posted their working theories, or "conclusions" and not been criticized! I say - theories are welcome!

Just don't my mistake and state it as conclusive. blush
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
It's a shame this was covered up.

Once again...this has NEVER been *covered* up by ANYONE....

When someone decides it is in the general public's best interests NOT to release information, I call that a "cover up."


Can we please just drop this. Links have been provided to evidence this was discussed on this very board as far back as 4.5 yrs ago. There has been no new discovery what so ever, wiggle babies have been produced again by inbreeding. As a matter of fact history has just repeated itself as it usually does. And this bickering back and forth does nothing to help our afflicted gliders nor our healthy ones.

Now moving on to what can possibly identify this syndrome that affects these gliders...As Peggy stated she contacted me to see if I would be willing to have Hook tested. My immediate answer was YES if he would not be harmed. It really baffled me to hear that Nicole and Beth both declined, because while I do not agree Toxoplasmosis culprit here I do understand research.

In a previous post I mentioned I was awaiting the response of genetics labs that I had contacted for the purpose of genetic mapping on gliders. I will tell you I did find a lab that would work with us and while the initial cost would not be cheap I do believe the community along with the breeders could raise the money necessary to get it done. Sadly it would do nothing for our wiggle babies or the possibility of identifying the gene that causes this. We simply do not have enough of them to establish the genetic makers necessary to accomplish this task. Morally and ethically I do not have what it takes to purposely engineer the babies that would be needed to do this.

The company that would be willing to work with us is Genetic Identification Services, and I spent several hours speaking to their their geneticist whom has over 37 years of experience in this type of genotyping and mapping experience. If anyone wants any further information on this do not hesitate to contact me.
Posted By: tjlong

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 08:43 PM

Quote:
I do not agree Toxoplasmosis culprit here I do understand research.


I got lost! When was toxo mentioned? I know it is a major culprit in glider health and every household that has gliders and cats should definitely have their cats tested for toxo!

Did I miss something? I agree, that it's probably not toxo though. Doesn't it wind up killing gliders not just affecting the neurological system? I should ask my vet!
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: tjlong
Quote:
I do not agree Toxoplasmosis culprit here I do understand research.


I got lost! When was toxo mentioned? I know it is a major culprit in glider health and every household that has gliders and cats should definitely have their cats tested for toxo!

Did I miss something? I agree, that it's probably not toxo though. Doesn't it wind up killing gliders not just affecting the neurological system? I should ask my vet!


Tracy, Dr. Tristan was presented with videos and the lineages of the affected gliders. Because it is known that marsupials are susceptible to Toxoplasmosis and Toxoplasmosis does affect the neurological system, he wanted to start with testing these gliders to rule it out and then be able to move on to other types of testing.
Posted By: tjlong

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 08:50 PM

Thank you Adri! I totally missed that part!

I agree that it is something that should be ruled out. Toxoplasmosis is nasty stuff.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Adri
It really baffled me to hear that Nicole and Beth both declined, because while I do not agree Toxoplasmosis culprit here I do understand research.


I told her "yes" when she asked if I'd be willing to provide blood samples. However, after further research and asking Peggy more about the tests that would be run, I changed my mind because the only tests that were going to be run would be for Toxoplasmosis. Only ONE glider would need to be tested to see if it was toxo and since you, Adri, were already giving her samples then I told her I wasn't going to have Shimmer put under to give her more samples since 1 was sufficient.

These gliders are "special needs" and putting ANY glider under is scary enough, but the added risk due to these gliders' conditions worries me even more. So, I told her that because of that I wasn't willing to have blood drawn on my babies for Toxo. Now, should I be approached again in the future and asked for blood samples for something I feel is worth the risk, then I'd gladly get the blood drawn and sent out asap.

I could be wrong, but I believe that Beth is in agreement with me on this and that's why she declined as well.

Originally Posted By: Adri
Sadly it would do nothing for our wiggle babies or the possibility of identifying the gene that causes this. We simply do not have enough of them to establish the genetic makers necessary to accomplish this task.


Actually, the test for CA was created for horses with just 20 test subjects. There are 8 wiggle babies and their 6 parents. That's 14 right there. It's a pretty good start.
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Cora
Guerita, you are over your PM limit and I would like to chat with you.


Nevermind then!
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135

Originally Posted By: Adri
Sadly it would do nothing for our wiggle babies or the possibility of identifying the gene that causes this. We simply do not have enough of them to establish the genetic makers necessary to accomplish this task.


Actually, the test for CA was created for horses with just 20 test subjects. There are 8 wiggle babies and their 6 parents. That's 14 right there. It's a pretty good start.


I am only repeating what I was told by a "Geneticist" of over 40 years and who also heads the lab responsible for genetically mapping a multitude of animal species. I am not going by the findings of my own google searches.

Also isn't there really only 7 wiggle babies accessible and 4 possibly 5 of the parents? To my knowledge the whereabouts of Beatrice are unknown, is that not correct?

Also Nicole just as I don't agree with issue of Toxoplasmosis, I don't agree with your belief that what we are dealing with is CA. In everything I have read there is a progression of symptoms that occur up to 6 months of age. That is clearly not the case with our babies, it is evident almost immediately after they are oop that they have the disorder. Granted if you are seeing it for the first time you may not know right away what you are dealing with. With CA there are other symptoms there are also many other things that don't fit, for example an awkward wide-legged stance, body tremors, stiff or high-stepping gait, poor depth perception, and a general inability to determine space and distance. Having Hook here with me over the last two years I have not found any of the above mentioned symptoms to correspond with him other than the head movements. Please keep in mind that Hook is also blind so these symptoms would gravely affect him if they were present and that is just not the case.

Nicole trust me I want to know what my baby has, he is the inspiration behind so many of the things I do. It's just not that simple.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 10:43 PM

Cora. Sorry, I missed your post. Please email. My email is guerita135@yahoo.com .
Posted By: GliderGuyVA

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 11:01 PM

If they have CA then the symptoms would continue to increase. With CH, they are born with the symptoms and it is nonprogressive. The only definative way to know if it is either would be to do a necropsy. The only gross abnormality is a decreased cerebellar mass(<10% of the total brain weight)

There is no effective treatment for this disorder(CA). With CH they can live a somewhat long life.

Just my 2 cents smile
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 11:09 PM

Adri, I didn't realize Hook is blind...

Are you sure that he has what Beth's gliders and mine have? Cause with Toxoplasmosis blindness is actually one of the possible symptoms(along with neurological issues and other things).

Do you have any videos of Hook that you could post?

Here's an article specifically about toxoplasmosis in Australian marsupials: http://www.wildlifehealth.org.au/AWHN_Admin/ManageWebsite%5CFactSheets%5CUploadedFiles/119/Toxoplasmosis%20of%20Australian%20Wildlife%2023%20Mar%202009%20(1.0).pdf

As for the other symptoms of CA...they're different, based on the type of animal. The symptoms in horses are a bit different then those of dogs. Also, since gliders walk differently then dogs and horses it would explain why we don't notice a big difference in how they walk. A "wide stance" wouldn't show in a glider because they walk with their legs spread out anyways. Depth perception can't really be determined with these little ones either because they don't jump and glide like other gliders do. At least, Shimmer sure doesn't...she likes to stay on the cage floor and chew on floor toys or climb up and weave herself through the baby links I hang in the cage. She doesn't, however, jump or glide because she's not coordinated enough to do so. The only time she's able to hold completely still is when she's totally focused on something, like when she's eating or nibbling on my fingers. Even then her head usually does a little bit of up and down shaking, like a person with Parkinson's.
Posted By: Pockets

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 11:35 PM

Adri -

Professor Jenny Graves -
following links for the DVM's

Pro Jenny Graves
Anu Pro Jenny Graves
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 11:35 PM

Nicole, Hooks blindness is not straight up...see that was the first thing I noticed in him. His eyes started to open but stopped half way, the rest of his lids are fused. So his third eyelid is partially up and he has from what my vet and I have been able to determine extremely limited vision, maybe only shadows. Hook is also sterile, there is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that he is the product of continuous inbreeding.

I will post a video shortly...keep in mind he is the most severe case I have seen to date.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 09/30/10 11:38 PM

Alden, Nicole had agreed to starting with bloodwork at no cost to her, and then changed her mind once she did her internet research and found out about CA, not after seeing a vet. Nicole did say she would be interested in continuing if we raised the money for a Cat Scan.

After contacting Beth, she also said she felt a Cat Scan would need to be done. Or MRI, I can't keep remember.

I was contacted to help and donate, I initially said no because... these things rarely run smoothly and I always seem to get kicked in the teeth for helping. LOL. But then I said IF Beth, Adri, and Nicole could all agree, would be will to work with a/any vet/multiple vets, just a vet, then I would donate and assist in raising money so none of them would have to be responsible for the costs. As a breeder, and I am sure other breeders agree, I think this is a global problem and I wanted to help.

However, we never got that far, bloodwork is no longer needed because Nicole doesn't think it is. She didn't want to take advise of Dr. Tristan because she no longer thinks it is needed.

Then find another vet, any vet, ask them their opinion.

I also read a lot about toxoplasmosis, CA, CH, dogs, horses, etc. And and I do understand a lot of medical terms and I can't even begin to guess what it is or isn't.

And exam by a experienced vet is what is needed.

I have a lot of joeys from the Frodo line at my home, or have had them born to my home. I have never had any neurological symptoms from any of them. But close inbreeding is also not done.

I'll stick to what I have been doing at my house, pray for the joeys born with this and hope no more are produced.

And Alden, as for cover-up. While I can not comment on Nicole's gliders, this post is what informed me, prior to that Beth's gliders have been talked and posted about for many years, Nicole has even made her own comments in them. I believe old posts on several boards still survive. Just because breeders of the last few years did not know about it does not mean it was covered up. If there was a cover up it was only due to recent facts.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 12:04 AM

I am a very small scale breeder, but do have Frodo in the lines as do most of us. I have never had a joey with this type of problem to my knowledge. I have lost a few at very young ages, so I cannot say for sure. I would be willing to help with any fund raising or research into this as I do believe we will all benefit from the information.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 12:36 AM

Hmmm. I missed the place where Nicole decided a vet wasn't needed.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 12:49 AM

Here is my Hook, this video is not easy to watch. So be warned. At least it's not for me...


Posted By: tjlong

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 01:09 AM

Oh poor little guy. Adri, thank you for sharing. Are his movements different than the video I saw of Beth's joeys? Is it just me? Maybe he is older than they were in their video?
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 01:24 AM

Hook is 2 years old Tracy, Beth's are actually older. The movements are the same Hook is just far more severe, in my opinion.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 01:41 AM

In response to what Alicia wrote about Nicole, I wrote that I didn't understand what she was saying, since Nicole had said she was taking her gliders to the vet. Alicia responded to me saying that Nicole had said she was NOT taking her gliders to the vet. My response was to Alicia, saying that I didn't see that.

I was NOT in any way trying to scold Nicole, or anything like that.
Posted By: tjlong

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 01:41 AM

I think you are right about hook's being very severe. Beth's video isn't as clear so this helps us to see their movements even better.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 02:15 AM

Alden, I just wanted to clarify so there is no discussion and we can move on Alicia did not say Nicole was not taking her gliders to the vet she said:

Quote:
and then changed her mind once she did her internet research and found out about CA, not after seeing a vet.


I think your eyes read to fast. We all do it at times.

All I know is I had spoke with a few different people about raising money for testing...testing needs to be done the way the vets feel it is needed, not the way we feel it is needed. Had the blood work came back negative for toxoplasmosis and the next step was a cat scan, well then, we would have tried to raise money for that as well, and I know the Whole community would have been supportive and helped how they could.

Nicole, just to clarify, more than one glider would have been needed because he also wanted to go over all the results and see if there was any common denominator there that could lead them to what this might be and if it was not toxo, which step, through what the tests results showed, should be...

Neither here nor there.They are their gliders to do with what they want.

I had not even made mention to Beth what type of test would be run, so it was very obvious to me from her response that her and Nicole had been talking about this. Beth is the one who said test for Toxoplasmosis No, but if you want to raise the money for a cat scan, I'll be all over that. She said I should have plenty of other samples from the other gliders that people have with this syndrome. Yet her, Nicole, and Adri are the only ones I am aware of...

Nicole claims she feels it is 99.9% CA, I am thinking she might be wrong in her suspicions...but that is why a Veterinarian and proper testing is required.

To find out the Truecause of this.

I guess I would have understood them saying no a little easier if either of them had went to their vet and discussed the test with them and their vet said they felt it wasnt necessary, but to be told no because they felt it wasnt that because they read on the internet and feel they know (99.9%)that it is CA...well that is just heartbreaking...IMO anyway.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: queenduck
Alden, Nicole had agreed to starting with bloodwork at no cost to her, and then changed her mind once she did her internet research and found out about CA, not after seeing a vet.

However, we never got that far, bloodwork is no longer needed because Nicole doesn't think it is. She didn't want to take advise of Dr. Tristan because she no longer thinks it is needed.


That is what I was responding to. I was not aware that Nicole had decided that seeing a vet, bloodwork, and advise from Dr. Tristan was not necessary.

Ok? Please - I was just stating "I was not aware" I didn't mean for it to become a new sub-topic in this thread!
Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 03:27 AM

Research on your own to get ideas absolutely OK feel free to bring your ideas to a vet! However, making a diagnosis without having proper tests with people who know what they are doing .... not ok. Stating that your positive this or that is the cause on a open forum, full of very new people, again, not ok.

Everyone please remember this is a novice forum, and what you say will be absorbed into the minds of a lot of new people.

Please note that ALL gliders need to see a vet, and proper diagnostics should be done, at no point in time should ANYONE self diagnose an animal in less they are a knowledgeable aka a current licensed vet. Also taking your glider to your regular clinic that doesn't understand exotics does not constitute an appropriate vet visit.

Gliders are exotic animals, it is more than highly probable that they will NOT show typical signs of a diseases you may see in Dogs/Cats/Horses (not sure how horses are even able to be compared they are completely different). Note that when you look up diseases, they will give common signs and symptoms for dogs and cats etc. Gliders may very well NOT show these things and google most likely is not going to have the answer for you on common diseases that have also been done on marsupials, or the gliders themselves.

I would like to note that Toxoplasmosis though unlikely, is possible, along with many other things. Toxoplasmosis in immunocompromised animals and humans can cause severe issues, it crosses placenta and can cause birth defects and other issues in the fetus. Long story short, possible. It is not just transmitted though cats - or direct feces contact. It is a highly pathenogic worldwide zoonotic disease. The word impossible should not be used at this point in time :)Lets replace it with unlikely. smile

As many of these animals that are showing these signs should be tested as possible, if you really want to know the answer, if you really want to find the solution, then you wouldnt hesitate....especially with people willing to foot the cost. We can end speculation, and at least rule out some possibilities. With blood we can have many tests done, not just dx for toxo, but full organ panels to test organ functioning and output levels (helping to narrow down if there are organs effected by this). Tons of neat stuff!

Posted By: DirtyPaws

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 04:23 AM

Wait wait wait wait just one minute! I came here to pick up where I'd left off (page 5 maybe) and Nicole edited and deleted the info in her posts tant Niiiiiicoooooole! Hmph ohwell

I was just skimming through the posts on my phone as they arrived in my email and was really interested in all the research and information that was being posted. In fact, I was goning to make a thank you post for everyone staying civil, for all the research these ladies had done, and for sharing everything. I've never heard of any of this stuff and am a sponge when it comes to glider health & care.

So I decide I'll try to find and save Nicole's posts from my deleted emails. I sware it's like she edited them right outta my email too! The posts that are still on the board are also in my deleted folder, but not the ones with all her research findings.

And Adri, I would love to get the chance to meet and love on your little Hook someday heart He is a doll and you could tell he seemed 'better' by being on you mlove

Now, just curious here. How many pairings do we know about with such close inbreeding as these 'wiggle' babies that DO NOT have Frodo in their lineage. Have we seen inbreeding this close that didn't produce this? Surely some of the first kept lineages will show this, as inbreeding/line breeding was more common.

What about the inbreed mo's that ended up with sterile lines? Were there no 'wiggle' babies born back then?
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws

Now, just curious here. How many pairings do we know about with such close inbreeding as these 'wiggle' babies that DO NOT have Frodo in their lineage. Have we seen inbreeding this close that didn't produce this? Surely some of the first kept lineages will show this, as inbreeding/line breeding was more common.

What about the inbreed mo's that ended up with sterile lines? Were there no 'wiggle' babies born back then?


The key is that the mosaics were inbred... and nobody is really sure how closely because records were destroyed. The sterility came out of severe inbreeding... and it seems that the wiggles do as well. This is a huge factor, and we have seen that (in mosaics) the trait became x-linked and genetic. (although there are theories that it was in the female genetics before the inbreeding).

The wiggle issue could also be passed from those who exhibit the characteristic, but that could only be determined by breeding the wiggles... and NO breeder I know would go so far as to do that.

We also forget that Micky and Minnie were brother and sister... that is supposed to be the worst genetic paring possible... as well as Tammy and Tommy.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but Chip, Saleen, Shy Baby, and Twinke have not shown any major defects...

So... basically we have no conclusion... other than that more testing is needed. (I definitally do NOT claim to be an expert of any kind here)

What I find that does definitally point to something NOT genetic... is the frequency... in the general population has been discussed, but nobody has mentioned the oddity of the fact that EVERY glider from the two pairings that produced wiggles...was a wiggle!
For example, if we assume it is a recessive characteristic, then only 1/4 of the babies from those pairs would have it (simmilar to the odds of leu babies from two 100% leu hets). Also, if the same is true, there would be a LOT more in the community, not just in isolated incidents.

I think, if we are to take blood from the wiggle joeys, Dr. Tristan should figure out ALL that he thinks he can rule out from blood, as Nicole does have a point to be concerned about these gliders going under anesthesia more than absolutely necessary. If the blood is used to rule out many things, as well as compare... then it will be more "worth" drawing it and we will be able to find out more answers (or rule out more things) from one blood draw. I would consider it very important to get as much out of the one blood draw as we are able to with the amount of blood that we can draw from a glider. And Yes, I would be willing to donate to help with the cause and moreso if we are testing for more things.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 03:35 PM

Originally Posted By: wildlifeangel

What I find that does definitally point to something NOT genetic... is the frequency... in the general population has been discussed, but nobody has mentioned the oddity of the fact that EVERY glider from the two pairings that produced wiggles...was a wiggle!
For example, if we assume it is a recessive characteristic, then only 1/4 of the babies from those pairs would have it (simmilar to the odds of leu babies from two 100% leu hets). Also, if the same is true, there would be a LOT more in the community, not just in isolated incidents.


Nadine, I have to disagree with you here. Nana and Proud had twins, Captain and Hook. Captain was and is perfectly normal yet Hook is not. They also had Tinkerbell which was 4 months give or take when I got them and she was perfectly normal too. Just because Smidgin and Kitty produced 3 out of 3 thus far does not mean that if they were allowed to continue to breed they would not have produced normal joeys. Just like when we breed for color though the odds of a joey expressing a color are 1 in 4 doesn't mean you will get them exactly in that order.

When you study the genetic make up of anything you will ALWAYS find thousands of mutations or flaws with in it. Now with that said, who is to say there is not a huge gaping hole in the genetic makeup of the Frodo line? There very well can be, just as I am sure there are thousands of gaping holes every line, but then again we go back to the odds game. First the parents would BOTH have to have inherited the same flaw on the same allele and those alleles would have to line up at the exact time of conception for the defect to manifest. This is exactly why I have been stressing that is not an issue of major concern if the lines are bred properly.

The issue with sterility in mosaics is no different. I am certain the original mosaics had the gentetic gaping hole if you will in their genetic make up. It was only after generations of inbreeding their offspring that sterility was set in the line. Same thing happens in dog breeding all the time, because dog breeding is more complex than breeding gliders. Why do I say that? Breeding dogs involves the setting in certain phenotypes (appearance characteristics)for example broad chest, a short snout, coat length and so on. The problem occurs when the dogs used to set these traits in are from the same lines and have these genetic gaping holes for other issues, like deafness, hip dysplasia and many others.

While it is true that many of our founding color gliders were severely inbred and show no effects from it, does not mean they did not inherit and pass on to their offspring genetic defects in their DNA. That is why it is vital that inbreeding does not occur, as that will help prevent these genetic defects from setting into our lines.

Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws

What about the inbreed mo's that ended up with sterile lines? Were there no 'wiggle' babies born back then?


Crystal, each line will have it's own issues and defects within it's DNA. Mosaics we know have sterility, Frodo seems to have the wiggles and Creminos seem to have an immune deficiency. Having this knowledge just gives us the upper hand when pairing our gliders. It doesn't mean you can't or should not breed them, you just have to make sure there is no inbreeding. As this will GREATLY eliminate the possibility of any of these defects manifesting.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 04:47 PM

Adri, I stand corrected, I wasn't 100% sure, but I hadn't heard of normal siblings.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 05:49 PM

Adri - you are over your PM limit!
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 08:05 PM

Adri, you're alot better at wording things then I am. I don't know all the "scientific" words for things, so I'm not always sure how to get things across without just making it more confusing. :\

I agree with you completely. We need to focus more on HOW we are breeding and not WHO we are breeding. It doesn't matter if a glider is from the Frodo line or from the cremino line or ANY line. The point is that if we are going to breed ANY glider back to the line that they're already from, then it needs to be done with extreme care.

There WILL be more issues that pop up in the future. It's to be expected. We can either panic and neuter all our gliders or we can take a step back to LEARN from these mistakes and move forward more carefully.

If we're able to stay civil then, perhaps, when things like this happen in the future breeders will be more likely to post about it and not hold back for fear of the onslaught they'll receive because of it. I can guarantee that there are a LOT of accidental inbreedings out there and there've probably been multiple joeys born from these inbreedings that have issues. However, when breeders see how people have reacted in the past and how the other breeders in their situation got bashed and slandered(maybe not here on GC, but there are other forums on which it most certainly does happen and IS happening), well, it doesn't exactly make those breeders want to step forward.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Research on your own to get ideas absolutely OK feel free to bring your ideas to a vet! However, making a diagnosis without having proper tests with people who know what they are doing .... not ok. Stating that your positive this or that is the cause on a open forum, full of very new people, again, not ok.

Everyone please remember this is a novice forum, and what you say will be absorbed into the minds of a lot of new people.

Please note that ALL gliders need to see a vet, and proper diagnostics should be done, at no point in time should ANYONE self diagnose an animal in less they are a knowledgeable aka a current licensed vet. Also taking your glider to your regular clinic that doesn't understand exotics does not constitute an appropriate vet visit.

Gliders are exotic animals, it is more than highly probable that they will NOT show typical signs of a diseases you may see in Dogs/Cats/Horses (not sure how horses are even able to be compared they are completely different). Note that when you look up diseases, they will give common signs and symptoms for dogs and cats etc. Gliders may very well NOT show these things and google most likely is not going to have the answer for you on common diseases that have also been done on marsupials, or the gliders themselves.

I would like to note that Toxoplasmosis though unlikely, is possible, along with many other things. Toxoplasmosis in immunocompromised animals and humans can cause severe issues, it crosses placenta and can cause birth defects and other issues in the fetus. Long story short, possible. It is not just transmitted though cats - or direct feces contact. It is a highly pathenogic worldwide zoonotic disease. The word impossible should not be used at this point in time :)Lets replace it with unlikely. smile

As many of these animals that are showing these signs should be tested as possible, if you really want to know the answer, if you really want to find the solution, then you wouldnt hesitate....especially with people willing to foot the cost. We can end speculation, and at least rule out some possibilities. With blood we can have many tests done, not just dx for toxo, but full organ panels to test organ functioning and output levels (helping to narrow down if there are organs effected by this). Tons of neat stuff!



clap

I would love for something to be done to determine if this is simply an inbreeding issue, or has a genetic trait to it, or a combination of both. I hope something can/will be done with those that do have these gliders and their parents. A lot of questions and suppositions could potentially be answered.
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/01/10 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135

If we're able to stay civil then, perhaps, when things like this happen in the future breeders will be more likely to post about it and not hold back for fear of the onslaught they'll receive because of it. I can guarantee that there are a LOT of accidental inbreedings out there and there've probably been multiple joeys born from these inbreedings that have issues. However, when breeders see how people have reacted in the past and how the other breeders in their situation got bashed and slandered(maybe not here on GC, but there are other forums on which it most certainly does happen and IS happening), well, it doesn't exactly make those breeders want to step forward.


Nicole, I feel it is every breeders moral obligation to come forward with any issues they may encounter. It is the only way to prevent from it reoccurring. Sure an accident can happen to anyone, I agree. But sweeping things under the rug is wrong on all levels. Knowledge is the only tool we truly posses.
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 12:11 AM

As a small scale (Ok very small) Breeder I could not agree more!
OT Please everyone look at the petglider.com and make sure any glider you have that bred has the correct info there, OK pretty please!
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 01:30 AM

Thanks to Mary Holcombe(and Cora for getting me in touch with her!), we've now got our first OFFICIAL vet response to this condition:

Quote:
When I looked at the first video, and before I even saw the second email
about CA, I was immediately thinking about a condition called cerebellar
hypoplasia, seen in cats. The signs would be basically the same as
cerebellar abiotrophy.

I did not read a large amount of the forum discussion as it is many
pages long and I am in the midst of appointments, but I will say that
the fact that it is occurring consistently in certain breeding pairs
ABSOLUTELY supports the fact that it is genetic.

The solution is to stop breeding these pairs.
The next step is to try to identify traits that are consistent in the
parents that are having these joeys - for example, mosaics were
mentioned several times... So if it is strictly occurring when mosaics
are bred to mosaics, then that is likely the predisposing factor.

The way to confirm the disease and to be absolutely certain that there
is not an infection or other underlying disease is to do a necropsy. I
am not suggesting that any of these animals be euthanized - I truly
believe that they have a good quality of life, as they have never known
life any other way, and it probably bothers us more than it bothers
them. However, as they age, when one does die of natural or other
causes, it would be ideal to have a complete necropsy performed,
including collection of the brain, and have all samples submitted for
tissue analysis (histopathology) to a pathologist experienced in sugar
gliders. That would be a very important piece of information and
eliminates all the 'guessing' and 'theorizing'.

Lastly - there is no treatment if that is truly the condition. Like I
said, their quality of life is generally good, even though they may need
special caging and care.



Natalie
Natalie Antinoff, DVM
Diplomate ABVP (Avian)
Gulf Coast Avian & Exotics
Gulf Coast Veterinary Specialists


Dr. Antinoff has been treating gliders since before Mary even got into them(almost 16 years ago), so she's seen alot and knows her stuff!

This is her first response and I tend to ask alot more questions and also am hoping to get her in touch with MY vet so that she can talk to a vet that's actually seen a "wiggle baby" in person. I'll keep you guys updated.
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 01:34 AM

Dr. Antinoff is working with a neurologist thats why I pointed you to Mary. She wants to help.
OT I have asked Mary to go to the pet glider database to make sure the info for Pele and the others from the glider tree are correct. She said she has everything written down (I love this woman) and will be studying it, she can also add some OOP and expiration dates.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 03:01 AM

Quote:
her in touch with MY vet so that she can talk to a vet that's actually seen a "wiggle baby" in person. I'll keep you guys updated.


This is wonderful that this vet is willing to help as well, but did I miss something?

You stated your vet can actually talk with a vet who has seen a wiggle baby in person....who did he see before? I think you left that part out.

And since he stated that he feels that nothing can be done to determine this except through necropsy, does that mean no testing will be done (IE; Cat Scan)? As some vets feel a cat scan can help determine the issues...
Posted By: KarenE

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 03:09 AM

Peggy, it is difficult to know who you are quoting since you don't use either the quote or quick quote feature.
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 03:13 AM

(clarification)Peggy, Dr. Antinoff is a she, you know she is in the Houston area.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 03:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
her in touch with MY vet so that she can talk to a vet that's actually seen a "wiggle baby" in person. I'll keep you guys updated.


This is wonderful that this vet is willing to help as well, but did I miss something?

You stated your vet can actually talk with a vet who has seen a wiggle baby in person....who did he see before? I think you left that part out.

Clarification, Peggy.

I think that what Nicole is saying is that Dr. Antinoff can call Nicole's vet in order to speak with a vet who has seen a wiggle baby in person. As - Nicole's vet has seen a wiggle baby.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 12:01 PM

Has there been any thought to the fact that this could be a form of Parkinsons or other anomalies that cause tremors?
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 03:48 PM

personally i think if some tests are made on these wiggly babies it would reveal something. i dont think waiting to do a necropsy is all that is needed.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 03:55 PM

Quote:
we've now got our first OFFICIAL vet response to this condition:


Quote:
also am hoping to get her in touch with MY vet so that she can talk to a vet that's actually seen a "wiggle baby" in person


I'm confused by this. If your vet has seen a wiggle baby in person, then what was your vet's response to the condition? How is a vet who has only seen a video offering the first ever official response to this condition if your vet has seen the glider(s) in person?
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 04:07 PM

Val, my vet hasn't seen them in person yet. They're babies. I want to bring them in so that she can see them and then call and consult with Dr. Antinoff. Since Dr. Antinoff only has videos to go off of then I figured between her experience and knowledge and MY vet's in-person, hands-on encounter with the joeys then they can come up with a more conclusive diagnosis.

As I stated before, this is the FIRST email I've gotten from Dr. Antinoff, but it won't be the lest. In response to this email I wrote her back and, among other things, I asked if a cat scan or MRI might be able to determine if it's CH. I also asked if it's at all possible for it to be something non-genetic(more specifically, toxoplasmosis). She usually doesn't work on the weekends, so I probably won't get a response back until Monday.

BTW, if my words are going to be continually be torn apart(and in some cases twisted) then I'll just stop posting. The only reason I'm posting the responses is so that you guys can have the words of a VET(since my research wasn't considered legit) to go off of. I'm certainly not posting for my OWN benefit. :\
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 04:36 PM

We need you to keep posting Nicole. I understand your frustration with the way some people are picking your words apart just to be picking, but there are others of us here who are truly interested and want to know what is going on with the progression of these babies and the ongoing process to try to determine what is causing it. Please don't quit posting because some people are losing site of the true issue.
Posted By: Gizmogirl

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: DeniseDren
but there are others of us here who are truly interested and want to know what is going on with the progression of these babies and the ongoing process to try to determine what is causing it.


agree
Posted By: mary h

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 04:52 PM

What makes you think that Dr.Antinoff has never been involved with or treated this problem?

She gets involved with gliders and vets everywhere to help...she is a very caring person. since it seems to be difficult for some of the glider people to work together and put the glider first...perhaps it would be better if I keep Dr. Antinoff out of it...and let the "want to be vets solve the problem".

Mary
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 05:27 PM

Nicole, Let it roll off your back hun. For the good of the glider! I think it would be awesome for your vet to consult with Dr. Antinoff, now we are getting somewhere. And Peggy the whole getting blood thing, most of the time my vet who is very experienced cannot get enough blood from my gliders for cbc and chem profile.(gliders are sedated for this) How much is going to be required for this test? And yes my vet has consulted with Tim on blood draws.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 05:37 PM

Mary, that's why I said I'd stop posting if people can't stop picking words apart and twisting them.

I think that people seem to forget that there are OTHER people out there with gliders with this condition. My joeys are the newest wiggle babies are just that: JOEYS. They aren't even big enough for a decent blood sample yet! And yet I seem to be a horrible owner because I haven't taken my joeys and had my vet run a bunch of blood tests on them yet...

Perhaps we should be asking Adri and Beth what THEIR vets have to say about this issue since their gliders are ADULTS and mine are just joeys.

I get called a bad owner and accused of not wanting to take my gliders to a vet and accused of thinking I'm better then a vet just because I do research and I'm asked to get a VET'S opinion. So, I get an EXPERT glider vet's opinion and yet that's still not good enough?!

I'm sorry, but some people just won't be satisfied unless it's THEIR vet that does the diagnoses... If you're one of those people then please just do us all a favor and quite posting so that you aren't going to ruin the learning experience for everyone else.
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 05:50 PM

Back to the matter at hand. you just cleared a whole lot up with your above post I thought you had more affected gliders other than these 2 joeys.
Adri has already said she will put her glider through the testing so I will be anxiously following her and her gliders journey as answers are sought(and I pray found) and tests are done!
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 06:55 PM

Quote:
Well, come June 27, the beautiful, sweet, amazing, and, yes, "wiggly" Shimmer came OOP


Quote:
Thus resulting in the "mysterious" joeys that Alden is referring to as having just come OOP 2 weeks ago.


Nicole has three wiggle babies (all from the same parents). Shimmer, who is 3 months old now and the two joeys who are roughly 3 weeks.
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 07:24 PM

Is that correct Nicole?
just trying to keep it all straight
Posted By: Pockets

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 07:36 PM

Cora -
General anesthesia is required for achieving adequate restraint for blood collection.The volume of blood that can be safely collected is up to 1% of the body weight -
Rosemary Booth
Posted By: Cora

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 09:50 PM

I understand that Pockets BUT my vet has yet to be able to obtain that much (0.5cc). Thanks for4 your input!
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135

Perhaps we should be asking Adri and Beth what THEIR vets have to say about this issue since their gliders are ADULTS and mine are just joeys.


Hook is two years old but he is not much different than a joey in weight, he only weighs 67g. When he was taken in to be neutered at 5 months my vet Dr. Payne stated he would not put him under as he was unsure he would make it out as to the severity of his neurological condition. Upon further examination he discovered that Hook was also sterile and he had no testicular development at all. If you notice in the video he never developed a bald spot.

When Peggy contacted me about testing I immediately said YES only if he would not be harmed. He is bigger now than he was then so maybe it is possible. I don't really know. As to what Dr. Payne thought at the time? He had never seen another glider like him, given the evaluation at the time he felt it was genetic and more than likely the product of inbreeding as similar situations had occurred in different species. He also estimated Hook would not live past the age of one...thankfully Hook turned 2 years old this August.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/02/10 11:55 PM

Could someone please clear this up for me? I'm a little confused why Toxoplasmosis is a possibly a trigger for this "wiggle syndrome". From what I've learned in school Toxoplasmosis is a parasite that mainly effects cats and humans but can be passed on by eating infected meat, transmission from mother to fetus or eating the feces of an infected cat? And if the neurological damage is from Toxoplasmosis then the mother of the joeys would have the parasites as well, and if so then can't a blood sample can be taken from her?
Posted By: Adri

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/03/10 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: ErichB
Could someone please clear this up for me? I'm a little confused why Toxoplasmosis is a possibly a trigger for this "wiggle syndrome". From what I've learned in school Toxoplasmosis is a parasite that mainly effects cats and humans but can be passed on by eating infected meat, transmission from mother to fetus or eating the feces of an infected cat? And if the neurological damage is from Toxoplasmosis then the mother of the joeys would have the parasites as well, and if so then can't a blood sample can be taken from her?


Erich it is a known fact that marsupials are also highly susceptible to Toxopalsmosis and since the neurological symptoms caused by Toxo can be similar to what we are seeing in these gliders Dr. Tristan wanted to have them tested to rule it out. It is also my understanding that the tests that were going to be run were not exclusive to Toxo but that was one of the things that would be determined. HTH
Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/03/10 12:42 AM

The amount of blood that is required for the IgG & IgM is 50-100 Micro litres of blood. A very small amount.

And yes, Nicole does have a three month old Shimmer who is the older siblings to the two new boys she has. It was Shimmer that was going to go in for the blood work first before Nicole changed her mind.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/03/10 01:11 AM

Ahh okay thanks for clearing that up Adri, My bio-class didn't discuss Marsupials as much as I'd like to have. And if its such a small amount why not have Shimmer tested? Considering how much we can learn from it.

~Erich
Posted By: KarenE

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/03/10 02:07 AM

I would like to ask anyone who is guilty to stop throwing Nicole under the bus for making any decision she does for her gliders.

ALL of us have the right to make the decisions we feel are in the best interest of OUR gliders from diet to housing to vet care.

I see Nicole going above and beyond what most glider owners are willing to do. It may not be what you would do, but they are not your gliders.

Posted By: Obsolescenttears

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/03/10 02:34 AM

In house lab testing tends to use up a LOT more blood or plasma for the tests, when you do send out to laboratory they can do so very much more with MUCH less. When a situation like this arises clinics can (and often times will) draw in the clinic and send it out for the diagnostic testing. This tends to cost a lot more than in house testing, but you have a better shot of getting more tests run, and also more accuracy.

It would be very interesting to see blood work from a joey then also bloodwork from the adult stage of that same joey. We have a unique opportunity to do this with these young joeys - full anesthesia is not necessary to collect the blood, just enough to make them drowsy so they dont move. Proper restraint can be had with a very relaxed glider. It would also be very nice to compare adult blood of normal gliders to Hook and to another glider showing these symptoms obviously so we can see what normal levels would be - and also to have compare contrast.

But ultimately like Karen said, its not our choice, its the owners choice.

Has anyone decided for sure they are or are not willing to get the blood taken? Anyone who is for sure willing to do this - have you thought of a date for getting it done?

Posted By: Judie

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/05/10 06:10 PM

I have been following all the threads on the Wiggle babies from the very start.

As I see it... without proper testing to give a definative diagnoses... then all these threads seems to imply is spectulation as to cause.

The other thing I would like to point out... there has been a lot of breeding with the Leucistic over the years with many of them to first cousins or closer. To this date I do not know of any wiggle symptoms in any of those offspring from close inbreedings in the Leucistic lineages.

My guess is.. we have had thousands of babies born from owners here on GC. So with only a slight handfull of wiggle offspring it appears that this illness would not be genetic as I feel we would have seen many more babies with the wiggle symptoms if this was a genetic disorder within the WF lineages.

There are many illnessness which are able to mimic each other... so without proper medical testing to determine positive identification there is no way to determine positivly the cause of the wiggle symdrome.

Conclusion: We know nothing more than we did several years ago when these wiggle babies were born. Testing was suggested back then and to my knowledge was not done with diagnoses being derived from only talk or internet access which has only resulted in speculation as to cause of the Wiggle Baby Sym.

Please understand.... I am very sympathetic to these owners and their sick babies. It has to be heartbreaking for them not to know the true cause of what their babies are afflicted with as I can honestly say I would be also.

So... for now I will continue to follow the little Wiggle Babies and pray that a diagnoses will eventually be medicaly determined.



Posted By: Srlb

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 10/05/10 07:14 PM

clap EXCELLENT post Judie!! clap
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/03/10 04:00 AM

Has anyone seen the 'stargazing' defect in corn snakes?

It looks very similar to this 'wiggle' problem.... I have a link if anyone wants it.

Here is the description:
Stargazer is a gene that causes the animal to appear to be star gazing. Stargazing is a deviation in the bodys balance, as a result of which the animals makes uncontrolled movements. It is made worse in stressful situations. They move quite normally on a flat surface, but if they raise their heads above the surface or try to follow movement quickly they have very uncontrolled movements. The animals have great difficulty if they are laid on their back, it takes them some time to realise they are upside down before attempting to correct themselves. Also they can take several attempts to seize their prey.
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/03/10 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily
Has anyone seen the 'stargazing' defect in corn snakes?

It looks very similar to this 'wiggle' problem.... I have a link if anyone wants it.

Here is the description:
Stargazer is a gene that causes the animal to appear to be star gazing. Stargazing is a deviation in the bodys balance, as a result of which the animals makes uncontrolled movements. It is made worse in stressful situations. They move quite normally on a flat surface, but if they raise their heads above the surface or try to follow movement quickly they have very uncontrolled movements. The animals have great difficulty if they are laid on their back, it takes them some time to realise they are upside down before attempting to correct themselves. Also they can take several attempts to seize their prey.


Omg! I was in the pet store last week and saw one of the baby corn snakes doing exactly that! I had no idea what was wrong with it. I was recording it at the time, then I noticed that there was something wrong with it, so I stopped. I asked one of the workers to come check it out, but by the time they got there, the snake had went back under the rock. They just said they would "keep an eye on it". Thanks for posting this!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/03/10 11:00 PM

As much as I HATE snakes, among a few other animals/creatures, that is terribly sad. No matter how much I LOATHE an animal, I would never wish something those terrible on it. frown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/06/10 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: wildlifeangel
I think that ALL of the gliders born with ANY defect should have that noted in the pedigree, even if they are pet only, so that we can more easily catch trends and be aware of defects. So, Nicole would put her wiggle babies into the pedigree... even as one joey, noting that there were 3 all born with a neurological defect. If it gets documented, then we can more easily see a trend. BUT I also agree that it is hard to actually put them into the pedigree because many might look at that and automatically assume that Nicole is a bad breeder for putting that pair together... without considering the exact situation that caused the inbreeding and that she has resolved it.


Ive been trying to keep up with this thread and I just had to post here that I agree with you that the gliders should be registered. As far as how they look at Nicole, I would suggest using the comment section to explain briefly the mistake, and that this mistake is actually going to help in the research of this gene. I think its safe to say that for the most part, anyone and everyone that uses the database, who would be looking up these specific gliders, either frequents these forums where this is discussed, or has spoken to her personally and knows most of the situation. If not, the comment section can take care of that. Even linked back to a page that shows what happened.

I list all of my gliders in The pet glider, and I take full advantage of the comments section. Its there to be used for any explanation of what you feel people need to know about the glider. smile

If I didnt say it in my rant Ill say it now, GREAT idea to add them!
Posted By: KoziGliders

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/10/10 04:43 AM

My computer's working as well as ever! (Considering I'm not on mine at all... eh. x_x)

Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Everyone please remember this is a novice forum, and what you say will be absorbed into the minds of a lot of new people.


I strongly agree with this.

Almost 3 hours ago.. (After having to make a temp account to get on, after getting onto a more functioning computer.. Still haven't resolved account issues.) I stumbled upon this thread.. always want to know what's going on if at all possible. I saw quite a few names on there I know well. Obviously I was VERY shocked, especially since one of them is my own. I went through almost every single post in this thread and believe me I've got a migraine. I'm sorry I'm late in posting this.. Computer issues, electric issues, you name it.. but I finally found this and I think it needs to be edited.
I don't think we can count on everyone to read the whole thread as I did, many read the first page, IF not just the first post and absolutely FREAK. (Telling people not to panic is usually the first way to get them to do just that.. maybe it's just my opinion and NO offense meant..! But.. I think that's just a big trigger in making people really anxious. Many people also instantly want to do what they're told not to, depending on the situation so..)

I think the first post needs to be edited or have a disclaimer.. saying that this is all speculation, don't go out and neuter all your gliders, that we still have yet to do research(as in REAL GENETIC TESTING) and so on..

It's fine and dandy to warn people, make people aware.. [censored] I'm not inbreeding, my pair's COI is one of the lowest I've seen considering their coloring.. but I don't plan to get my boy neutered because of this. As far as I'm concerned my pair aren't inbreeding and are VERY much not related from what I can tell. (Granted I'll admit I'm still very new to all of this and having a migraine isn't helping me check up on stuff.) But if they produce I will make the new parents aware of the situation, as ANY new parent should be in ANY circumstance, and tell them to chose their pairings carefully to best avoid ANY instance of inbreeding. (Which, like many said, should be done anyway.)


I guess I'm just saying.. The first post(the only thing many owners may see) is more than enough to scare someone, and much discussion has been done since and I really do think some kind of disclaimer(other than DON'T PANIC) is in order.

Maybe it's just me, I don't know.

Sorry if I'm crazy, I do hope someone understands though.



Originally Posted By: Adri
Originally Posted By: Guerita135

If we're able to stay civil then, perhaps, when things like this happen in the future breeders will be more likely to post about it and not hold back for fear of the onslaught they'll receive because of it. I can guarantee that there are a LOT of accidental inbreedings out there and there've probably been multiple joeys born from these inbreedings that have issues. However, when breeders see how people have reacted in the past and how the other breeders in their situation got bashed and slandered(maybe not here on GC, but there are other forums on which it most certainly does happen and IS happening), well, it doesn't exactly make those breeders want to step forward.


Nicole, I feel it is every breeders moral obligation to come forward with any issues they may encounter. It is the only way to prevent from it reoccurring. Sure an accident can happen to anyone, I agree. But sweeping things under the rug is wrong on all levels. Knowledge is the only tool we truly posses.


Also.. I don't think she is saying people should stay hidden or be encouraged to do so. I think she's saying that people are scared. Rightly so. Many people are new, beginners, and they do the best they can.. but like you said, accidents happen. Many many people do not understand or accept that. I see way too many things on the forums..

"Oh, really? Well I sure hope he's getting neutered and you're not breeding then!"

And so on, the like.. YES, people need to be informed, but kindly doing so and telling them directly what they SHOULD(or you sure HOPE they should) do or not do is kind of intimidating when you're a beginner. Like.. "Oh no, now everyone's going to think I'm stupid and just treat me like this every time I post." They could definitely have that attitude, be too scared to post and turn to a different forum... or a facebook group.

I don't know what I'm getting at, my head feels awful.. just, I guess.. I agree, any and ALL knowledge (even the awful like with the wiggle babies) is good to have for the benefit of the whole, but you have to understand people(aren't all as understanding and kind as some) are still going to be there to point fingers, place blame and harass individuals depending on the situation.


I don't know if I make sense anymore, this thread is super old, and my head hurts so.. sorry if this was a useless post. ):
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/16/10 12:55 AM

Quote:
And so on, the like.. YES, people need to be informed, but kindly doing so and telling them directly what they SHOULD(or you sure HOPE they should) do or not do is kind of intimidating when you're a beginner. Like.. "Oh no, now everyone's going to think I'm stupid and just treat me like this every time I post." They could definitely have that attitude, be too scared to post and turn to a different forum... or a facebook group.


When I first came on, I experienced this, and honestly, it took me a while to start posting again, and in some of my posts, I will state quite clearly not to flame or attack. lol.

Personally, I read the whole thing. I had to. If I didn't, I might not have brought home my Emmett and Rosalie. Since my Rosalie has Frodo in her line. Instead, I read and I called and spoke to a few people. Not everyone is going to do that. Most will just say, ok, lets change plans and steer clear.

IMHO, I would love to see some sort of site dedicated to this. Its not your typical sickness that would affect a glider. Its more of a disability or affliction? (if I chose my words wrong, by all means tell me).

wigglesingliders.com or something. Have a FAQ page, perhaps a myth page, and just organize it so anyone can go and read on it as if they were reading for the sake of their own children.

List the exact number of KNOWN wiggle babies, who they are, who owns them, and how they came to be. A graph with their parents, etc. See where Im getting at? You dont even have to list who owns them.. but at least give enough info that people can look and say, ok, baby a and b had parents that were directly related..etc.

I will be more then happy to supply the hosting .. and even purchase the domain name... Ill even construct the site... I personally do not know enough about this to even touch on adding to it other then what I offered.. so if there are a group of people who would like to compile the info.. The offer is there.

All it could do is benefit the gliders and stop people from falling into here say and bad information.
Posted By: KoziGliders

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 11/16/10 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Lisa_NJG
Quote:
And so on, the like.. YES, people need to be informed, but kindly doing so and telling them directly what they SHOULD(or you sure HOPE they should) do or not do is kind of intimidating when you're a beginner. Like.. "Oh no, now everyone's going to think I'm stupid and just treat me like this every time I post." They could definitely have that attitude, be too scared to post and turn to a different forum... or a facebook group.


When I first came on, I experienced this, and honestly, it took me a while to start posting again, and in some of my posts, I will state quite clearly not to flame or attack. lol.

Personally, I read the whole thing. I had to. If I didn't, I might not have brought home my Emmett and Rosalie. Since my Rosalie has Frodo in her line. Instead, I read and I called and spoke to a few people. Not everyone is going to do that. Most will just say, ok, lets change plans and steer clear.

IMHO, I would love to see some sort of site dedicated to this. Its not your typical sickness that would affect a glider. Its more of a disability or affliction? (if I chose my words wrong, by all means tell me).

wigglesingliders.com or something. Have a FAQ page, perhaps a myth page, and just organize it so anyone can go and read on it as if they were reading for the sake of their own children.

List the exact number of KNOWN wiggle babies, who they are, who owns them, and how they came to be. A graph with their parents, etc. See where Im getting at? You dont even have to list who owns them.. but at least give enough info that people can look and say, ok, baby a and b had parents that were directly related..etc.

I will be more then happy to supply the hosting .. and even purchase the domain name... Ill even construct the site... I personally do not know enough about this to even touch on adding to it other then what I offered.. so if there are a group of people who would like to compile the info.. The offer is there.

All it could do is benefit the gliders and stop people from falling into here say and bad information.

Thanks for posting.. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this or felt that way. ): I know a lot of people on here want to help but it just seems the way it comes across is often in an elitist way, or just.. really harsh, especially to SOME of the new people who hardly know what to feed their glider(YET obviously) muchless what's going on in the forums.

I agree too, a site may be kind of a good idea with a FAQ/myth type of thing since none of this has been proven via blood tests or actual scientific testing and it's all just theory right now. I hope someone will work with you on that.. I don't know enough about it(and honestly don't care to.. reading this through the first time hurt my head, so long as I know I've NO intention of inbreeding and will be very careful selecting my pairings I'm not super worried as I was initially) otherwise I'd love to offer help to you or to do it myself. Thanks for being so kind as to offer your time though! <3
Posted By: Serenitysn

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered - 12/25/10 10:57 PM

I'm a bit late in posting, but I spent 4-5 hours the other day tracing the lines of my personal gliders. Thankfully, no one is within 5 generations related to this, but I will spend more time looking further back.

Eventually, if the sugar glider population is to become a strong gene pool, there must be genetic testing for these defects. Also, there must be new gliders introduced into the pool. The fact that these gliders are so easily traced is because we have still a small amount of them (genetically speaking). In addition, there are already genetic studies being conducted on the sugar glider (see below), but there is not a complete genome mapped yet. The owners of these affected animals should definitely donate blood or at least store their blood until we have isolated and located the genes responsible for the disease.

In the meantime, it looks like there is already some mapping of microsatellite markers for differentiating between individual gliders. This means that there probably is a blood test in the works (if not present) that can tell you how closely two animals are related (i.e. inbred.) However, just because this information is available, does not mean the public can access it. I am already looking into what companies may process parts of the genome for us. The article shows some of the costs/etc so I wonít have to explain it. However, as of right now, this is going to be extremely expensive. So this canít be someoneís pocket fund, this should be a large donation drive. Also, this does not mean that we need the entire genome at this point, but just the areas of illness, which we do not know where they are located yet.

Without going into much further detail since it is Christmas, I would like to take on what Lisa has described as an informational site, which I have already been working on for other topics that are commonly misinformed.

Please PM me for the link to the article.
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