Sterile breeding

ok, I have a few questions, perhaps someone could help me with her.. I know that males can be sterile, but females from a sterile line can still breed.

1. If you have a Sterile female (say leu), and you match her with a male (say brown beauty), will all the males she produces be sterile as well? And the females still carry the sterile line?

2. Is it possible to breed out the sterile line?

I know everyone has an opinion on breeding gliders that carry the sterile gene, however, for those who are against it, please understand that I am not here to be attacked, accused or talked down to. Please keep comments on topic and informative.. Debates are welcome if they are friendly and helpful in finding the answers to these questions.

Thanks..

OK... here is my take on this subject, as well as all the facts I can think of at the moment.

Sterility is carried on the x gene, so the female from the sterile lines will most likely produce sterile males. Those males will not be able to breed, so the sterility is carried through the girls.

At some point, there were boys from the line that could breed, and some of us consider the line bred out, that is why we are producing boys that can have joeys from that line. For example, if you look at my new little boy, Felix, he is 6 generations out of producing sterile lines. His great-grandpa was the first to produce from the sterile line, and his grandpa and dad came down the same line.

BUT some believe that the sterility could be carried through other genetic material, not just the x chromasome. The concern is with breeding these sterile lines into recessive genetic pools... because for example, leu gliders need to be bred to other gliders with the leu gene (distant inbreeding...or some other term like that), so if we introduce the genetic particles from the sterile lines into the leu gene pool, and they get bred back together, the concern is that sterility may resurface in the leucistic population, and since inbreeding is needed to preserve the leu color, we would be stuck with sterility in the leu lines. (this also applies to platinum, albino, and creamino)

I am happy to breed my sterile line male, and I have no concern about any possibility of sterility in my offspring. But I do respect the opinions of those who don't want those gliders bred into the recessive colors.

(hopefully that all makes sense)

That makes sense actually... So it IS possible that it can be bred out, but carelessness could screw up the whole color line.

I want to bring home 2 little girls. (fact is, this wont change my decision to bring them home either way, but they are questions that will give me more knowledge so well.)

Their mother is white platinum mosaic 100% leu het, from a "Sterile" line.

Now, going to try to do this the best I can without getting too confusing or confusing myself.

The girls I want come from mom who carries, from grandmom who carries (but doesnt state it), great grandmom who carries, and great great grandmom who carries. HOWEVER, looks like grandmom produced a boy that has successfully bred and has 5 offspring.

I was looking more into the lineage and just found that.. while the great grandmother and great great grandmother state that they produce sterile males, NEITHER show males born to them.

Now, Im sure these males if in fact they were produced to these two females, were sold as pet only, or kept as pet only... however, placing them in the lineage would have been MIGHTY helpful in this case.. GREEE.. seeing how grandma produced at least one boy who was able to produce.

*sigh*

The problem is that some breeders don't record history of the sterile males they produce. Since they cannot breed, they are sold as pet only and omitted from the database.

Sterility works sort of like a dominant mo gene. A female can carry it and pass it on to sons and daughters, but that doesn't mean that EVERY male born to her will be sterile or that EVERY female born to her will be male. So just because you see a female produce a male that is not sterile does not mean that she still doesn't carry the sterility gene. Just like if you have a mo that never produces mosaics-it doesn't mean that the parent is not a mo. It is understood that it is X linked. But this is an overview of how it shows up in some gliders but not others.

Sterile lines are not considered 'producing' sterile lines until a male in the line is producing. So say you have a joey that's great grandfather is the tie to sterility, that then means the line is a 'producing sterile line' if the only ties to sterility are female then they are from sterile lines X generations bred out. And believe me, sterility can be passed through females for MANY generations. Just because you have a female bred out 7 generations doesn't mean it's fool-proof that she won't be a carrier of sterility.

double or I guess triple post.

Sorry double post.

Its ok.. the more I can learn the better. I would like to put them with my one male who very much needs a friend, however any joeys produced I think I would adopt as pet only. He is a brown beauty... so I dont think I would get anything other then a het from them but it wouldnt even matter because they would not be for breeding.

As far as keeping records on pet only gliders.. I sure do. I post every joey they have and put on the comments if they are breeding or non breeding contract. Its the only way I can see doing it. Its just a shame it couldnt have been done earlier on with some of the males from that line. Even if they commented in the notes to each one ya know? Gives us more statistics and could I guess in the long run help with questions?

It's my understanding (and I don't breed gliders so it's limited) that the sterility in the mo lines functions the way male-pattern baldness does in people...women carry it but rarely express it, so you only see it in the males. Except that baldness can be passed on by men...sterility obviously wouldn't LOL.

So, breeding is ok, if its carefully done.. does anyone know of any cases where the infertile gene skipped generations?

IE, sterile line produced a non sterile male, that bred and passed a sterile male?

or is that what you mean by producing sterile line?

Also, how can you tell they are sterile without trying to breed?

I am confused by your statement

You are talking about leu girls from sterile lines. I am not sure you can get "safe" with any paring with them. Can you explain what you mean? Btw, I'm not bashing you at all! I just choose to be completely safe and not breed from sterile lines whether or not they are producing. That is just my personal choice.

You can tell they are sterile many times, my understanding is because they don't develop testes, or at least they don't drop into the pom.

Actually not even sure at this point.. since I know there are plenty out there breeding them, some are sterile and some are not.. To me its more of a [censored] shoot.. but in being careful, I guess to breed them, but not breed them back into a line that is no longer sterile, but if I am getting this right, the line is ALWAYS sterile.. there is no breeding out..

Im tired and a bit confused. Im getting the girls regardless.. Im not saying they will or will not be bred.. If I choose to breed them, the joeys will be sold as pet only and everyone will state that its from a sterile line.

I see this done a lot.. and I see gliders being sold as sterile but not as pet only.. so as far as being worried about the sterile gene being bred into Leu lines etc.. where is the caution if sterile gliders are being bred like anyone else?

UGG.. Im exhausted.. maybe I should tackle this in the morning..LOL

lol. You would definitally need to alert anyone who buys them of the sterile background. I need to do that as well, but I have no doubt that all of my boys WILL produce. It's hard when there isn't males in the direct line to sterility. With the BB male, you can feel comfortable breeding as long as you are very careful about alerting people and not encouraging them to breed for leu (as the joeys will be 50% leu hets). This is a good step to breeding out the sterility. If you have a little boy that is able to produce, then you could keep him and breed him to another non-recessive color (grey, WF, etc) and those babies would be now from a producing sterile line (your grandbabies...lol)

EDIT: just realized the girls are leus... I would not breed them at all. I was under the impression that they were mosaics (silly me!). If they don't have the mosaic gene, it wouldn't be worth messing with the breeding of the sterile lines.

I wouldn't breed a leu with sterility at all, even if it is only for hets. I'm WAY to worried about sterility getting introduced to the recessive lines. We have a sterile line mo female here that we breed, but we have her paired with a WF bred far out of leu lines. Her non-mosaic babies are sold as pet only on a contract and we haven't decided what to do with her mosaic babies yet-she's only had one and she was sold as pet only anyway. There is a good chance we will sell them with breeding rights but we will be sure to coach the adopters on what pairing would be acceptable and what would not in order to stay away from pairing them with the wrong lines.

Ok, so then if a male from a sterile line produces, would HE in fact pass on the sterile gene to his male and female joeys? Or is that passed by the females only?

Thats what I was thinking of doing regardless.. Im not breeding for leus.. I mean, I wouldnt get them anyway if they bred with my brown beauty. Even at 100% hets, they would all go under a non breeding contract as pets only.



Im still learning colors.. so bare with me on that one. the mother is white platinum mosaic 100% leu het. So I guess they are both just Leu.. there is no het for mo right?

Not in theory. But until we have the entire sugar glider genome mapped out and have a complete 100% understanding of sugar glider genetics (which we do not) there is always the possibility of being wrong about how it's inherited. As we understand it right now, only females can pass it on. But there is always the issue of multiple genes factoring into inheritability-with any colors or defects- which could mean that the issues could pop up again many generations down the road in many different lines if we cross them.



you are correct. There is no het for mo. If I'm not mistaken, leu was introduced to some lines before it was understood how it was inherited. I may be wrong about that though. It could also have happened accidentally, not knowing a mosaic female was a sterility carrier. The point is- to stay away from it as much as possible NOW.
EDIT: I'm a bit confused by this though. You said you don't know if your girls are leu? What is their fathers lineage? Is he 100% leu het?

What is the lineage on your female?

If the girls are leus, then there is a chance that they are mosaic, actually a 50% chance. It is NOT a het, merely that they are mosaics but that is covered up by the leucistic.

Mosaic and WF are both genes that make white where it is normally dark... well when you make either of those genes with a leu, leucistic wipes ALL of the fur to white, and you won't know if they are mosaic or WF until they have joeys. But don't call them hets!

Mother is white platinum mosaic 100% leu het
Father is Leu

When I heard you couldnt have het for mo, I figured since dad was Leu, and mom was 100% .. that the girls are just Leu.

they are leu, but if you have mosaic joeys, then they are also mosaic... its a bit complicated, I tried to explain it above.

Can she have mosaic 100% leu hets, or will the offspring all be leu?

she the mom? or she the joeys?

the mom could very well have hets or leus. The mosaic gene is dominant, so half of her joey will have the mosaic gene (statistically, some get lucky, some do not).

The joeys she is getting may or may not have the mosaic gene. Because they are leu, you cannot tell if they carry the gene or not until they produce mosaic joeys. They could very well be leucistic mosaics... we just don't know until they produce. The reason we don't call them hets is that mosaic is not a recessive gene... it is dominant. It just happens to have been hidden by the leucistic coloring.

Girls are most likely leus, but... what they are telling you is that you can have white mosaics that look like leus, you won't know until they breed.

So if you plan on breeding these girls, let's call them leus... to a brown beuty/standard gray... your offspring will all be brown to normal colored, and they will be 100% leu hets and there is a good chance they will be sterile.

So you have normal looking joeys that are prob. sterile, have to be sold as sterile, and if you don't inform. people of this... you could add sterility into a standard line or later another leu line.

These joeys would be very difficult to sell, 1. because they are standard or brown (both are hard to sell0 and 2. because they are prob. sterile, or at least must be sold as sterile.

Now... let's say these girls are white mosaics and you just don't know it. So you pair them with your brown beauty, they COULD (if they are really mos) produce mosaic babies, or brown/standard babies. Most will be sterile or at least must be sold as sterile.

These joeys would also be very difficult to sell. See the same reason's above.

So to me, someone who does breed one sterile line, I would not do it.

If you plan on letting these girls breed to have a few joeys and then your going to get the joey's neutered/dad too and keep them all as a family/pets for yourself.. I say do it.


What is your end goal? To sell joeys? If so, I'd advise against it.

Even with a realy pretty mosaic sterile mom (who has boys that have not been sterile) it is a hard road finding the right homes for joeys, to make sure that sterility is not introduced elsewhere.

Great explanation Alicia. I forgot about white mosaics, I was thinking about true leus who also carry the mosaic gene... just like a WF leu.

Well I guess it depends on who you are talking to. I don't think lues can carry the mosaic gene. To me, you either are a mosaic or you are not. However, some mosaics comes so white (and they have lues in the gene) that people assume they are leus. Which has been seen in what people think are leus... but they have at least one black whisker. They are actually mos but look white.

Take my Gannon, he has a few dark whiskers and used to have a faint shading of gray. He no longer does, he looks like a lue with a black whisker.

He has produced wfb babies with his standard wife. The wf had to come from him, but it was a gene that he pasted on... it's just that he has a white face (which both his parents also have/wf) but he is so white you can't see a lack of bars because everything around where a bar would be... is also white.

So he is a white mosaic who is also a white face.

He has also had clear mosaics babies... proving that he is also a mosaic.

He has also had a grandson leu (wife is not a leu het) that was paired with a leu het and produced several leus.

So he is a white mosaic, white face, proven leu het.

But other might believe the a leu can carry a mosaic gene/or a white face gene, the end result can be the same, I just don't belive how it got there. There isn't a dormant gene, it is there you just can't see it because that particualr mosaic came out white, not spotted.

I don't have a genetic degree... just a lot of mos, lol, so who knows who is right.


But.. bottom line.. you mix sterility in there, you have the potential of making every color sterile.

Yes, sterility can be breed out. But with each glider the amount of breeding/offspring is different. Some used to say the magic number was 6 generations down and the line is no longer sterile. That is not so. In some it's 3, in some it's 5, some it's 6, and others... the line may remain sterile.

We don't know enough.

So unless you do know alot, you have a lot of contacts to sell pet only standards, wfb's, and leus to... it is not suggested.

I can tell you what would happen if you breed these leus (from mosaic lines) to a standard or 'brown beuty'...

...you will end up with lots of normal looking babies that you can not sell. Or.. if these girls are actually mos (with a leu dad and 100% leu het/mo mom chances are they are leus) you might get a few mosaics which will be a bit easier to sell but since the boards are flooded with NON-Sterile mosaics of all colors... you will be at the bottom of the list for anyone that wants to breed.

I am sure these girls are going to make fantastic pets. But if you want to breed, that is not the best idea for community or you/if your planning on selling. You'd be much better off buying a mosaic from non-sterile lines to breed.

With a mosaic, they either are mosaics or not. It's dominant gene like the White Face Blonde. One of the parents has to be that color in order for them to produce it.

Some leus are also WFB or Mosaic, but not all of them are. They are said to be possible, if one of their parents were.

Only way to know for sure, is if they are bred to a non mosaic or wfb and they produce that color in breeding.

Danielle, I agree with that. They are leus/look like lues but under it they are mosaic or they are wfb, or they are all three.

What I don't agree with is saying they have the gene. Which I can see can be confusing. LOL.

They have the gene because the ARE also that. Not that it's hidden gene that might pop out like the wt gene.

This is what I was thinking color wise.. Mom is mo, but 100% leu het.. (dad was leu), she was bred to a Leu male, so it would make sense that the girls came out Leu. Right? Or is there still that possibility they are mo just masked?

This is why I only dealt with Leus up until now.. LOL.. this whole thing with Mos just kills me.

As far as breeding.. I have been getting a lot of local people looking for pet only. For pet only with contract, etc etc.. they would be ok.. Of course I would mark them as sterile. I would even have a special contract made up just for them, as well as have it placed in their OOP certificate and every other document related to them.

I have been looking for a brown or black beauty to place with my jay, but its not been very hopeful.. at all..

A lot to think about.. I have a lot of people telling me yes and a lot telling me no.. I dont see that I will have lots of joeys all the time, and I never adopt a joey out unless they are with a buddy.. (unless the person already has one and is looking for a buddy for their own).. I tend to keep siblings together (males neutered of course).

ok.. well Im going to go back through here and read more..

Yes, there is a chance your girls could be mos. My guess is they are leus. But.. to be honest they 'could' be mos.

I have a lot of experience with sterile mos and selling their offspring, and I have nothing to gain or loose by giving you advice. My advice is not to breed them.

Enjoy your babies.

I have to agree with Alicia here most definitely.

My opinion on the subject would also to be either not purchase these girls even if your heart is set on them and purchase gliders that are from non-sterile lines or not breed them and have as pet-only. As a breeder one thing to think about in your pairings....ask yourself this.. " am i improving the lines by breeding these two gliders?" The answer would be no IMHO.

As a breeder I personally try to improve the glider's lineage as much as possible. I hope that every breeder has that goal as breeding has a lot more to it than putting pairs together that have a great co-efficients, colors, etc. All my mo's are from non-sterile lines yes. I can't say I have exp. with sterile-line mo's, but I have studied each discussion on them and do understand for the most part what this entails.

Alicia has a lot of exp. She has been around in this community for so long and her advice is very solid and true backed by her direct exp. Like she said, she has nothing to gain here by letting you know her stance ( and her stance is very likely the majority of this community who breeds imo on the subject), as she is trying to help in anyway she can by giving the best sound advice from herself whom has the exp and knowledge to boot.

You also will have a hard time finding homes if you did breed, can't be ever 100% sure a glider will not be bred unless it were male and neutered as females can not be fixed. There is no sure way other than to have them as pets or choose to purchase non-sterile lines to breed. Breeding comes with many responsibilities and there are way too many dishonest people out there. You can have them sign a billion non-breeding contracts but will that mean the females from them will never be bred? Nope. It's a piece of paper you'd be relying on in all honesty. It would be impossible to know for fact 100% they would never be bred so there is no reason to take that risk. Introducing sterility into a non-sterile line would also be detrimental to all that is trying to be accomplished with keeping lineages clean and bettering the gliders lineages we do have in the US.

after reading this thread, i just wanted to add my 2 cents here. While i would never say i have a fraction of the experience as any one on here, simply speaking from a rational standpoint of life, There are many people who would love to have white or mosaic, platinum, or cremino sugar gliders who simply can't afford to buy them. The way they are usually offered for sale, it seems that the only people who can afford them would be people who plan on breeding them in hopes of making some money or some of their money back. I realize there are exceptions to this.

What is the real harm of breeding and selling or adopting out to good homes pets that look beautiful, are friendly, and can fill the wishes of a kid or adult or family whose financial abilities may be hurting in this economy. I don't know that you are introducing sterility into other lines since the lineage can always be traced. I think you are just producing a nice glider that may be able to be sold at an affordable price. Yes, there is a possibility that someone might breed and not be honest. Its not alot different than someone who is inbreeding in order to keep their lines pure. I thought i read that creminos were bred very close together as there were only a few brought into the country. If i am wrong I apologize. if my facts are not presented correctly, again my apologies. I just wanted to show another view.

I hope i have not offended anyone with my opinion as it is only my opinion and nothing in this post was meant to offend anyone or pass along any misinformation. it is just an opinion.

That would be more of a possiblity if the one or both of the girls were known to be mosaics. But, as leus, there cannot be leu joeys, and there is possibility of sterile offspring... it's just not worth it for grey 100% leu hets that can't breed... so the leu het would be worthless.

I didn't want to tackle this, but will try I would love to have an albino line perhaps or a snowplat line but even tho it may be somewhat attainable now, i can't afford it with all that it comes with right now for my personal life .... responsibility and financially. I would need to divide more time to joey socialization, find room for another cage etc etc.

Offering a sterile line that has potential to at some point damage a non-sterile line is not an excuse to getting a color that anyone may want but simply can't afford. It could be very detrimental to a non-sterile line. There is no 100% assurance once a glider leaves, the lineage will always be traceable from a breeder even. I can only trace my own gliders' lineages 100% and whom they were adopted to as long as i take the time and input it into a database that is used that is most used by the general population within our community, i choose TPG database.. After that, i can't trace anything unless the new owner is responsible enough to input into the database as well, and keep records too. its up to the new owners to keep doing that and so on and so on.... that is the same exact concept as, we can not be 100% sure a glider that is female will never be bred even with a gazillion non-breeding contracts that comes from a sterile line and is bred to a non-sterile line. Furthermore, what if no one knew this happened? We would eventually start showing sterility when we didn't know it existed in a certain line and any offspring already sold as breeding would have it when we assumed it never did.....imagine the issues that would arise. I don't even personally want to think of something like that happening, its scary to me as a breeder.

BTW there are breeders willing to work out reduced pricing for pet-only gliders so one can hopefully afford say a leu pet-only (neutered) or another pet-only color. And furthermore if you can afford a mo from a sterile line and a leu or two leus at breeding price tho one comes from a sterile line, you should be able to afford a non-sterile line. I have my non-sterile mo boy available and I have seen some sterile line mo's with just as beautiful of markings etc for more $ than i am choosing as my adoption fee for a non-sterile line mo. You just have to look around and keep an eye out.

Breeders need to breed to improve the lines, offer tame and healthy joeys that are socialized daily and are weened onto a recognized healthy diet like the parents. If you can not do all those things, than IMO you shouldn't be breeding those gliders. Improving the lines(genetics) is also a point made in every animal and even human breeding now actually.

Look. this is also my opinion and i don't want to bash original poster or you at all. I'm not doing that, i am simply trying to encourage either keeping the sterile line pair pet-only or encourage to purchase non-sterile. When you post in an online community you have to expect various opinions and some may not be what you would want to hear. But, I would want to know if I were the OP if i didn't know that breeding them could be harmful to the glider hobby as a whole. I would be happy that I got some great advice and could make a positive decision from that advice. I also feel as a breeder it is a responsibility of mine to speak up to ensure the lines stay clean that we have now if I come across a post such as this one that was created. I know your stating your opinion and asking ?'s too. which i respect 100% I also 100% respect OP for coming to the board asking about sterile breeding. I give OP huge credit for being concerned.

we as a community have come a long way. we have come so far, worked so hard, and only have so many glider lines per color ( some have only 3 lines) since the glider hobby originally started.

yes in the beginning of the hobby( many years and years ago) all we had were a limited amount of genetic knowledge. WF lines were thought to be recessive rather than dominant and bred together and inbred and issues were recognized, but thankfully we have all came a long way to correct that. Same goes for any other color including creaminos and leus etc. We now have creaminos out there with COI's 3% or less which is very ideal and have very little common ancestors due to proper breeding. Proper = what we as a community agree is beneficial and not directly inbreeding ( neice and unlce etc) etc. we try to go out as many gens as we can on a glider's family tree. I think you must have some incorrect info and just hopefully clearing that up for you. We have great creamino lines and of course great lines of all the other color variations. Lets all as a community do our very best as breeders to keep it that way


There is IMHO real harm to breeding a sterile line to a non-sterile line and then offering them as pet-only including females from this kind of pairing. Since gliders have not been purchased yet, there is still time to make a better breeding decision or keep as solely pet-only I explained why in my post earlier.

I completely understand the concerns of the sterile and non sterile lines. something i did not understand a year ago when i got my twin mosaic females from a sterile line from a very experienced breeder.

While I do understand it, I am not sure I am in total agreement with you but the joy to life is we are all entitled to have our own opinions. You make a lot of sense in this regard.

Unfortunately there are many people and pet shops that breed gliders with no regard to the lineage and therefor no one would have an idea of what is what. I do believe that while no one can be sure someone does not breed a pet only glider, having some gliders available at affordable prices for someone who has no intention of breeding is not the worse thing in the world. Again, its only my opinion and not meant to offend anyone in any way.

These offspring won't be a special color though. They will be grey. They may have leu het - meaning if they were bred to a leu, THOSE offspring could be all white. But no one would want to breed them into a leu line and possibly introduce sterility there.

Does that make more sense? So they won't be a cheaper way to get a special color....they will be grey, which is not hard to find the color but hard to find with a lineage if you want to breed. With their lineage, they'd be excluded from almost anyone's breeding program. They could be adopted as pet only, but there's no guarantee that anyone keeps their word. Unless you know someone really well, it's very hard to sell a female as pet-only and know for sure it will stay that way.

Taking this one pairing, breeding the twins to a standard colored glider are only going to produce standard colored 100% hets that may be sterile. Unless (and the chance is slim) the twins are actually mos then they will produce standard color and mos that are also 100% leu hets and may be sterile.

That is not improving the standard line, that is not improving the leu line, and the mo line/if produced is already damanged.

This pairing will reduce the price of a mo (because it could be sterile) but there are lots of mo breeders out here, like me, who do sell pet mos and a lowered price. This price will not reduce the price of a leu (which it will not produce with this breeding) or plats- it's impossible.

The only thing this pairing will make a reduction in is the price of a standard gray (that happen to be leu hets) and if you can't afford the price of a standard gray... well then you can't afford to own a glider at all.

Then those joeys must be sold to a home that does NOT breed back to a leu/leu het, or you then have a whole line of sterile leus. We have lines of sterile leus now, the price of leus are coming WAY down, why would you want to produce a leu that is/may be sterile?

No offence is taken here. And I hope no offence is taken by my advice. I'm just being honest.

It is a bad pairing, it's not improving the line, it is not making rare babies at a reduced price for those that can not afford them normally, it is making steril gray babies. None of us need that.

People say, I'll be careful where I put them, I'll make sure everyone knows they are/could be sterile. Yes, I believe you. What happens is it is not you that misleads someone, it's the person under you, or under them, the people you sold to. They buy a gray girl, are told it is sterile but is also a 100% leu het, and you don't want her to breed.

This preson gets greedy (we see it all the time) buys another leu het, makes leu babies that are sterile and then sells them locally on craigslist for $300.

The person who bought on craigslist has no idea sterility even exists in gliders, and they do their own breeding.

I do have a sterile mo female. She has only had 2 mosaics in several years of breeding. All grays I had to be very careful with and 1 I am not so sure is in the best place (but of course at the time I did). The others have been neutered.

Right now I am holding onto one of her 2 mos, a girl. And she just had two grays. I have to be very careful with each one.

When I first started breeding her there were not a lot of mos out here. And when you found one you had to pay $4000 to get one. That is no longer the case. There are $500 pet mosaics right now. Really I know, I have several for sale and they aren't even sterile. There is no need to produce sterile gray babies. NONE.

My sterile mosaic is fixing to retire into fat no more baby making zone. There is not a need for the type of joeys she makes. It is filled with more frustration than benefit.

I agree with both of the last 2 postings about producing potential sterile grey gliders.. I have a leu male with my mosaic females and they have produced mosaic or leu babies not basic grey gliders and that was all i was trying to say. I realize that also in this economy prices are being brought down as most people do not want to spend a lot on pets right now or maybe just can't.

Like i have said, I think it really comes down to each persons opinion. after reading all of these posts, i will just say mine now could go either way as there is some good information here that I was unaware of prior to reading this thread.

My opinion is not to ever breed a glider with any problems like sterility so as not to add this into the lines. I'm still trying to understand how sterile gliders can be bred????

apparently only the males could be sterile and based on what i read, not all the males are. I guess they pass the gene along the lines and none of the females are but some or most of the males are.

ok, to explain it. Sterility has been seen to be x-linked. The male offspring will (most likely) be sterile. So if you were to breed a sterile-line female with an outside male, they will produce, but her male offspring would probably not be able to produce.

Then, if one of the males produces (from one of the above pairings) then his offspring are from producing sterile lines because he did not get the defective x gene.

i agree with alot of people on this board. there are already alot of beautiful gliders out there from sterile lines at cheap prices.
i dont think it is a good breeding practice to start another sterile line as we have way to many now.
alot of people are trying to get rid of the sterility so why
start another one?

i dont get it. if you must have these gliders enjoy as pet only, dont breed.

regards,
nancy in detroit

The problem with this is that we as breeders have a responsibility to these animals. We throw them into breeding situations, and although they are willing to do the task, they have no choice in the matter. It is our responsibility to ensure that we are bettering the species. Bettering the species is not breeding an animal with a known genetic defect so anyone can afford a pretty color.

Our desires cannot be placed above the well-being of these gliders and they joeys they reproduce.

I still do not understand why the breeding of the sterile lines is being done. I have a male from these lines. I was told he had retained testicles. When the surgery was done to fix this(and prevent testicular cancer) it was discovered there were no testicles nor sperm tubes. THIS IS A BIRTH DEFECT! Why *oh lord why* do we keep doing this to these babies?

i agree! shelly, Alicia, and cyndi stated it perfectly. Couldn't have said it better myself

This is a birth defect and should be treated as such, in my opinion. I hand raised a rejected joey from great lines, but neutered him at 4 mos to avoid any unforseen problems. It just doesn't seem right to go ahead and breed when you know there's an imperfection.

Look, I proposed the situation in hopes to shed some light on a few things.. one being that I seem to see a lot of "good breeders" doing this. Im not saying I am going to do it 100%.. Id like to find Jay a mate, but weather its these girls or another, my point was to get information... which I am doing.

I was confused a bit though honestly, if this is such a horrible thing, regardless of what pairing you end up with, why were they bred to start with and continue to be bred by these "Good" breeders. Hearing that they are working towards breeding them out and such .. sorry, doesnt do it for me.. only because there is no known fact that it actually breeds the gene OUT. You might have proven sterile, but are you sure that the gene is gone.. never to show in future unrelated lines again? no. So honestly, I see this more as a do as I say not as I do type thing. (NO offense). Its just how it comes off.

Im not getting defensive, Im just staying how it looks.. like I said, I dont HAVE to breed them, but Id like to know about it. When I think about breeding them, it does bother me quite a bit.. but like I said, I wanted more info.

I in no way want to infect any other line with the gene. Its that simple.. I do however want to understand it all.. and I mean ALL.. as much info as I can get.

This is the same with my WF.. I had just read about the wiggle gene before I got them, and because ONE of them had frodo in their line, I was concerned. SO, I went looking for information. I got the info I needed and I have my babies.

One of my biggest dilemmas with some of these good breeders, is the fact that I have a "100% albino het".. that I would like to pair.. however I have a hard time putting out $3800 for an albino considering I was told that the person who bred her (this big breeder), lied to people and stiffed them on the albino hets. So I have NO clue if she is who she says she is other then getting the word of a breeder that is full of glider pellets. Whats the point if Im getting only hets? Any albino hets I have found thus far are more related to her then the actual albinos, and at least if I got the albino, I would have albino hets from it. Well um, not in much better of a place as I was before though..unless I dish out more to buy either another albino or another albino het.

This by no means is compared to botching up a line due to sterile genes, but well.. again, I just want info. Its good info to know and perhaps info that people who are considering the purchase of a sterile glider should understand.

Ive seen a lot of stuff done on these board, and the same people who did them will be the first to preach and point fingers.. (NO, not any of you..so please dont think I am talking about you).. Im sure most of you know what Im talking about. However, what it does is leave a lot more info to be desired. It may make sense to some, it may not..

Im tired, so at this point, Im not making sense to myself..:P

As I had mentioned before, there are Leus bred throughout that line.. so where was the concern from this breeder? Mo or not.. it was still 100% het. "just mention to the buyer that its from sterile lines".. does nothing since not everyone understands them, or why its bad to breed them.

Did that make sense? LOL..
Time for bed.

i think because some breeders continue to breed sterile gliders does not make it right.
why bring in grey sterile gliders when grey joeys are hard to find homes for anyway even if they are 100% leu het.
any number of things can go wrong as was brought up.
my thinking- it is already being done that does not make it right.
breeding another sterile line is just bad breeding.

regards,
nancy in detroit
p.s. alot of good breeders are trying to clean up the sterile lines you will make it alot harder if you do this.

So my question becomes, if these babies were male and more than likely sterile based on this information, what's the harm there. these could not be bred and therefor not introduce anything into any lines. as purely a pet, they could be put with any female without fear of having babies, saving the glider from being neutered as most breeders who offer gliders for pets as opposed to be bred. This seems almost more humane to me as we are not taking away their ability to reproduce and put them thru a surgical procedure which can impact a healthy glider in a negative way.

I am simply asking the question, not neccessarily saying its right or wrong. just curious as to the thought process since this thread has been about females from a sterile line.

So my question becomes, if these babies were male and more than likely sterile based on this information, what's the harm there. these could not be bred and therefor not introduce anything into any lines. as purely a pet, they could be put with any female without fear of having babies, saving the glider from being neutered as most breeders who offer gliders for pets as opposed to be bred. This seems almost more humane to me as we are not taking away their ability to reproduce and put them thru a surgical procedure which can impact a healthy glider in a negative way.

I am simply asking the question, not necessarily saying its right or wrong. just curious as to the thought process since this thread has been about females from a sterile line.

But the offspring are not always male...therefore the females could still pass on the sterility gene when bred.

Point well taken and thank you