GliderCENTRAL

Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders

Posted By: kitsune

Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/06/06 10:19 AM

i was wondering if anyone else out there had any mentally or functionally handicapped gliders...my tegan and dimitri have some form of mental handicap with a motor function issue, they are slow learners, will run in circles, throw their head back, seem to prefer to be on their back, nod vigorously when they eat, and they fall in their cage a LOT, i was watching them the other night and in 15 minutes i counted 5 or 6 falls. i would like to help anyone out there that is dealing with this kind of handicap, i have reason to believe it's genetic and may start popping up in new places soon, and was also wondering if there might be anyone out there that could compare info with me...i am about to get their little sister, who seems to be even more severely handicapped than either of them ever were, she has some major difficulties with walking properly, when she grabs something she has difficulty letting go, and she eats ok but has to be given water with an eye dropper.

as far as cage alterations go...i have a lot of hanging toys in their gage, the long fleece boas, and i also have things across the cage so that if they fall, they will land on something like a hammock or will be able to grab onto something. the trouble is they go and go and go and go, they run without looking, it's like they're doing a little spaz dance all night, i'm amazed they have so much energy, so you can't keep them in a small cage at ALL, they would freak out and become neurotic. they really like to go UP. so...they have the 5' ebay cage...but they have lots of stuff to break their falls. their wheel is a wodent because they tend to get dumped out in any open-faced wheel...it took tegan a few weeks to learn the wheel, and dimitri several months.

they seemed to grow out of a lot of their handicap but i think it may be more plausible to say that they learned to adapt. they have never been able to pass as normal, especially dimitri. one thing i can say about these two, though, is that they are the most loving and attached gliders i have ever come across. they are so agreeable with me. i can pick up dimitri and flip him over on his back and give him a nice long tummy and neck rub. he is alright with strange people but tegan won't put up with ANY human but me. if she snells another human she will lunge and bite, but if she smells me she is overjoyed. i can get her to allow other people to handle her if i keep my hand with her. very loyal, very sweet, and they HATE being put back in their cage...most of my gliders are happy to go home, but when i am putting T and D away i have to scrape them off my hand and sneak my arm back out the cage door before they can catch up with me. i have heard from kiki that whisper, their sister, will bark and bark and bark until you pick her up. she also prefers to be on her back.

this is dimitri with his classic head cocked to the side...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan%20and%20Dimitri/DSC00765.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan%20and%20Dimitri/DSC00763.jpg

the constant looking back over the shoulder, over and over, with the eyes rolled back...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan%20and%20Dimitri/DSC00751.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/IMGP0325.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/DSC00720.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/Picture115.jpg

the preferred back position, all 3...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/Glider026.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/IMGP0335.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan/Picture057.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan/Picture060.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Whisper/whisper2.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Whisper/whisperback.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Whisper/whisper.jpg

i would REALLY like to know what is up with the back position. they are always on their back, i have to use a flat pouch attached at all four corners to the top of their cage because they come out of their pouch on their back, and that way they can just grab hold of the bars and go. it doesn't make any sense to me, although i will admit it's cute as heck.
Posted By: Paula0442

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/06/06 06:26 PM

Could Mom and Dad possibly be closely related???
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/06/06 06:58 PM

Are they triplets? Possibly close in relations (parents)? They sure are beautiful gliders and look so sweet!
Posted By: ScootersPet

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/06/06 11:58 PM

Is the owner of mom and dad considering neutering daddy glider? Have they always had some sort of 'mentally/funtionally challenged" joeys?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 02:02 AM

As genetic abnormalities tend to cluster with inbreeding, I unfortunately would also wonder if the parents are closely related, or if one of the parents was inbred, the owner may bot even know it ;(

Carrie
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 11:50 AM

i discovered a few months ago that their parents share a common relative; the father's dad is the mother's granddad, so the father is the mother's half-uncle. this distance is often an acceptable distance if breeding for rare recessive color traits (although i would never breed so close). dimitri and tegan were twins, and when their little sister whisper was born about 9 weeks ago and it became obvious that she also had their condition, the pair was separated. 3 out of a total 4 joeys from this pairing have this condition. the father was sold and is being neutered at the new owner's request, and will stay with the other joey from the second breeding, which was a wf het female that doesn't have the condition. the mother is now with another breeder, she will be breeding her to an unrelated male to find out if the gene is codominant. none of the joeys from the new pairing will be offered for sale unless it is proven that the gene will not show up again. i have an agreement with the new breeder that all joeys displaying signs of the condition will come to me; my vet told me that any attempt to pair these special babies with healthy gliders would be fatal, and i have seen signs of this clearly for myself.

with odds like 3 joeys of 4, i find it hard to believe the defect is recessive...a recessive trait would statistically show up in 1/4 joeys. with a codominant, it would show up much more, especially with two carriers. neither of the parents display any sign of the condition, and there have been no other reports of defects from the lines they came from. all i can do is hope that it stays that way, and strongly advise against inbreeding or line breeding white faced lines...this could forseeably become a major issue if it is allowed to spread. these joeys require tons of extra care until they reach 12-14 weeks old, and would never make good parents.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 12:47 PM

Yes you are definielty right--I've had genetics so I completely understand....there are other possibilities too but that would be far too complicated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Good luck, what a wonderful glider mom you are, take care of those sweet babies!
Posted By: Paula0442

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 01:45 PM

gogo, I would love to hear about the other possibilities.

It's okay, some of us can take it. We'll try real hard to understand you. LOL
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 06:04 PM

Well, it could be a recessive allele that they both carry, and one parent could actually have the double recessive but just does not express is to the extend of the others, but when it the offspring inheret that copy with the other recessive allele from the heterozygote parent it is amplified (Does that make sense?)(Like a highly functional down-syndrome baby!) or it could be recessive but linked to the X chromosome!! In that case, all male offspring would show it but only a small portion of the females (XY, so this one X would always be "defective")

I have to agree that it is most likely co-dominace though (Think about AB blood type as an example!)
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 09:55 PM

well, the thing is, tegan is affected but if i had gotten her first i would have just thought she was a bit eccentric. dimitri was the one that made it quite clear. for a while i thought it might be linked to the male gender because he is so much worse than tegan, but whisper blew that out of the water, because she is so much worse than both of her siblings. the other factor is the het female that does not express it at all. so, we have a non-expressing female, a slight expressing female, and a severe expressing female, along with a moderate expressing male. this leads me to believe that it does not have a gender preference.

as for the parents, the father had produced healthy joeys before he was paired with the mother, so the assumption now is that the mother is the carrier if it is codominant, which would mean that it didn't really matter at all if the father was related or not. it IS possible that one of the parents has it but does not express it very clearly, but from what i have seen of the father, and heard of the mother, it would have to be VERY slight, because none of the classic tendencies show, even the preference for being on their back. when you see my two, and compare their behavior to a normal glider, there is no question that there is something different. people that have never even seen gliders before comment on how strangely they carry themselves.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/07/06 10:53 PM

So the other assumption is that - both mom and dad are a carrier of this gene and related to closely. Because siblings from Dante have been bred with no defects, and siblings from Bea have been bred with no defects, but they've never had any of the siblings from either of these lines paired together, except in Dante and Beatrice's case - in which case they threw inflicted joeys. So at the current time she's with my lion male Gus whos totaly unrelated and we'll see what happens. If Beatrice throws defected joeys then she herself is the carrier of the defective gene and will be retired from beeding all together. I am going to TRY and get ahold of one of Dante's siblings to breed one of Beatrice's joeys. If her joeys are healthy to see if it's something hiding in the combination of the two genes - since Dante has been neutered. We'll make sure to keep everyone informed on what goes on and if it's proven the Beatrice is the carrier of the gene - it would be wise to do some studies with some of her siblings aswell to make sure we're not adding gliders to the breeding population that could wind up infecting alot of healthy blood lines with a genetic defect like this one.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/08/06 06:08 AM

it could be something in the mitochondrial DNA also (Passed from motehr only) I dunno, would definitely suggest NOT bredding either of them, even if they do have "great colors"

At least you have a great relationship with you special lil ones, I am glad they have a mommy like you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/08/06 07:36 PM

It's not about breeding them for color, I won't be offering any of their offspring for sale into the breeding circulation. It's about trying to find out if other gliders that are related and are used for breeding could be producing gliders that have an underlying genetic defect aswell.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/08/06 07:41 PM

Also, I'd like to add that Lilly's (Dante's mom's)parents are half siblings. So this could also just be something as simple as in breeding to closely to many times in a row.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/09/06 07:01 AM

oh, wow, kiki, guess what...frodo's dad is cereal too...so frodo is lily's half-uncle.

so...that means...frodo (cereal and hera) was bred to lily (doc {cereal and jez} and princess {cereal and jemina}) which produced dante.

then frodo was bred to noel, unrelated, which produced boogie, and boogie was bred to alex, unrelated, which produced beatrice.

then beatrice was bred to dante.

if this has to do with inbreeding, i'd think it would be on dante's side, that boy is so inbred i'm suprised he's not crosseyed...but he never produced any of these joeys on his own. beatrice, however, is not inbred at all. so this means, if beatrice does continue to pass this gene, it has nothing to do with inbreeding anyway...but could be traced back to cereal, since he is the one common ancestor all of these gliders share.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/09/06 11:28 AM

I may be out of step here, but why take the chance of breeding her. I just can't see bringing more unstable gliders into the world. Yeah it "might" not be her but it could be so why not just retire these gliders and just enjoy her beautiful white face as a pet only?I don't breed anything so I'm not in a position to know about the breeding and genetics. I am going back to my corner where I am usually quiet.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/09/06 06:28 PM

i think it's safe to say she will not be bred for color any longer...

now...in the bigger picture...this gene could very well start popping up here and there. these two particular parents have 30 or 40 closely related siblings out in the community being bred. this is a popular line. we can either work to understand it, or we can just retire her and cross our fingers that no more surface. just because this is the first recorded case doesn't mean it couldn't become a trademark of the whitefaced gene later on, which is becoming more and more common. no one is going to listen to us tell them their prized white faces *might* pass on a *recessive* gene the breeder will probably never have to deal with. once we can prove what is happening, and understand it better, we are hoping people will listen to us. we could never hope that all of their siblings will be retired, but we can hope to cut our losses, so to speak.

believe me when i say...after having tegan and dimitri, i don't want to see ANY more joeys with this affliction...kiki is in agreeance, she has spent the last week or so with whisper and is upset at how handicapped she is. what i would like less, though, is for this gene to actually become a common issue glider breeders deal with. i can see where a breeder with the wrong mindset might have a hard time retiring an expensive breeder if it threw a joey with this condition...it would be too easy to just re-pair it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/10/06 01:30 AM

I know its a real risk and i do see when some are coming from but we breeders know so little about the gliders and genes that Im glad maybe you can solve this problem. You already have gotten into this, research definately can be documented from this. Kudos to you
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/10/06 04:57 AM

This is an example of why inbreeding is BAD

I am positive it has something to do with that, "bad" genes, recessive, etc tend to crop up way more often with inbreeding, thats sad that so much inbreeding happened, was it an accident, over-sight...how did it even happen in the first place??
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/10/06 12:40 PM

deleted by Dancing
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/11/06 05:57 AM

The Special Needs Forum is for topics regarding the care of gliders with long term physical defects, including mobility, sight, and hearing impaired gliders. These topic will include housing, care, toys, pouches, and other accessories. Questions regarding genetics and breeding should be posted in the Breeding and Babies forum while this thread deals with the care of gliders with this particular handicap.
Thank You.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/18/06 01:13 AM

My mother has a glider named Gaer who is an absolute doll, but I've been reading this post for a while and have notice he enjoys spending tim on his back... Alot. He sleeps on his back and will lay in my mothers hand on his back. He seems to have good motor skills and doesn't have the tendancy to look back, but are their any other things I should keep an eye out for? He is a beautiful standard grey with some AMAZING facial markings. He is simply spectaculare, he has also, just recently, started loosing hair on his head. He's healthy, and we though it was stress, but it doesn't appear to be pulled out...almost liek it was rubbed off. He also rolls in his food. Bathes in it really and he doesn't groom often, we have to clean him with a warm damp rag. He has a tendancy to "skunk" at random as well, but is wonderfuly bonded and not afraid of anything. It has always concerned me that he likes to lay on his back like that.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/18/06 04:50 AM

dimitri, who i believe is in his teenager stage, is very very very active. i can get him to stop for a while and he'll just sit there, i can turn him over on his back and love on him and stuff...but then he'll get bored and he just GOES. and goes. and goes. and goes. it's hard to have him out in an unsecured room because he doesn't have the sense to stay with me. he falls in the cage a lot and it always looks like he's nodding or swaying. his movements are very exaggerated. even tegan looks back, and she is not as heavily affected. their father was a real sweetie and he would let them turn him over for a tummy rub, but it wasn't as unnatural as when these babies do it. they seem to have no instict to protect their vulnerable stomach. my dog can come straight up to dimitri or whisper and they won't make a move. most of my others would at least jump back, if not crab and lunge at her. when tegan is mad at me (and therefore i might be a threat) she does not take measures to make her stomach unavailable to me.

i am trying to get some videos of them up, a few of whisper (joey stage) and some of dimitri and tegan (adult stage) since they really seem different. i'm kind of wondering if the twins will change again when they are out of their adolescent stage. i'm hoping it will be helpful to identify the condition. people that don't even know what sugar gliders are can tell there's something wrong with them...it's a pretty obvious difference. if your mom's boy seems to be able to comprehend danger, he's probably ok. if your mom got him as a joey, it will be even more obvious...whisper is floppy, wobbly, has a weak grip and sleeps a LOT. she gets really upset when she's alone. she seems to still be having issues with learning the water bottle, so i have to give her water with a syringe and very juicy fruits. i might start mixing applesauce and water together.

when these 3 get upset, they do a kind of spazz-dance. they flip out to the extreme. they become a blur and will do cartwheels, somersaults, backflips, and just keep bouncing. it's nearly impossible to keep a hold of them. it's really funny to watch, although sad.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/21/06 10:22 PM

i have taken some videos of them...hopefully this will help people identify the condition. please direct comments to the thread i started in glider talk.

http://neekitz.zippyvideos.com/gallery.z
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/22/06 07:30 AM

Could it be that with inbreeding, they are simply showing retardation? Or a type of Downs? (as in humans?) I guess I'm not understanding what you are looking for, a name for it? Sorry, it's late, early. LOL
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/22/06 08:46 PM

i just want a diagnosis. someone pointed out to me recently that there's a possibility that they have other defects, that their lifespan might be shorter or they might have a problem with an organ or something, and it might be treatable. tegan DOES have seizures, but i don't know if that's part of this issue or if it's separate, because i haven't seen it in the other two. if i can figure out what the heck they have, i will know what needs to be done to ensure they are as healthy as possible. if it doesn't have a name, it might be fun to give it a name, but i don't really know how to go about that, either.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/23/06 08:53 AM

Being the breeder of Beth's joeys I would like to have my say in this.

I am the breeder, and it wasn't about the money. That is why Beatrice is with Kiki right now at no expense to her. I haven't sold her to anyone but am waiting to see if her joeys with Kiki's male are healthy. That way, I can sell her as a possible breeder wf or a non-breeding wf.

Since females cannot be spayed, I must know if she has the capabilities of being bred before selling her just in case the new breeder decides to later down the road. If she was a male I would neuter her and just sell her as a nonbreeder like her mate, Dante. The father of these joeys will not be able to breed anymore and is enjoying his retirement with his healthy daughter.

As for wondering why I bred her again after Dimitri and Tegan. My vet and Beth's agreed it could have been Beatrice encountering mold or something digested that brought on the condition, so when I moved into an apartment that was clean I bred her again to see if the environment was the factor in this. Beth was in agreeance with this assumption and I kept her informed when the new joeys arrived. I DID NOT breed for money! In fact, the moment I found another joey with the condition, I neutered the father, sold him with his healthy daughter, and found a home for Beatrice and Whisper.


I didn't give Beatrice to Kiki only to breed. In fact, it was Kiki's idea in the first place to try and breed her to her male. We worked things out to just see if this was an inherited trait through Beatrice and both understood this as ending with possible afflicted joeys. But, we were both curious to see if this was something in Beatrice's line, too close inbreeding, etc., which is what you would like to know too.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/23/06 10:21 AM


deleted by Dancing
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/23/06 01:43 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
That is why Beatrice is with Kiki right now at no expense to her. I haven't sold her to anyone but am waiting to see if her joeys with Kiki's male are healthy

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

There are joeys listed for sale on your site that says the mother of 2 of them is Beatrice. Is this the SAME Beatrice? Do you KNOW these joeys are in fact healthy?

As for having a mother glider and wondering IF her joeys would be normal with another male, why not just keep her and DON'T breed her? I don't see the point in chancing another poor baby glider to handicaps as severe as the joeys she's produced, regardless of what male she is with. Put her with another female and leave it at that. Why is it so important to breed this particular glider?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/23/06 02:53 PM

My site is about 2 years out of date, so the joeys pictured are actually from my normal grey female and Dante, so were perfectly healthy. We were going to change the pic to Dimitri and Tegan when they came, but never got around to it, so the info and pics don't match up.

As for the breeding, I was going to keep Beatrice from breeding, but Kiki and I, as well as others, would like to know a little bit more about this affliction...like how it's passed down. We know it can't come from just the father because he has had all his joeys from another female be healthy. Now we will find out if it came from Beatrice, or from both Dante and Beatrice combined. That way if it came from Dante and Beatrice combined, we will know not to mix these lines again in the future. It is merely out of gaining insite into this situation that she is being bred. All joeys that come out of it will be given the best of care.

Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/23/06 08:45 PM

deleted by Dancing
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/24/06 06:06 AM

I have had to do some editing to some of the posts in this thread. Please keep this thread on topic, which is discussing this particular medical/genetic issues with these gliders. Please keep all personal problems/discussion off the board in either email or pms or the thread will have to be locked and potentially removed and that will be a loss to everyone.

Thank you.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/25/06 07:23 PM

Has anyone considered the possibility of environmental contributors? I didn't have time to read ALL of the above posts, but while reading them it kept occuring to me that maybe there is an environmental concern. Didn't these gliders originate from the same location? Then were bred and produced handicapped offspring? I think it would be wise to consider what the original environment might have been. Could there have been pesticides or even housecleaning chemicals, mold toxins, etc., that these gliders might have been subject to on an ongoing basis, causing them to have malformed offspring? As with humans, having a 'bad' gene does not neccesarily mean it will be passed on and with the odds of 3 out of 4 joeys being inflicted with the same sysmptoms I have to wonder if there aren't other conditions that should be considered. Now that the gliders have been sent to new homes (I believe that's what I read earlier) maybe this will be a good chance to test the environmental theory. If that were the case, chances are, any new offspring wouldn't be affected since they would be removed from the original environment and so have mom and dad. My daughter was ill for months after moving into a new apartment...we couldn't figure out what was going on. One day, a water pipe in another apartment burst and flooded my apartment. They brought in big fans, dehumidifiers, etc., but since the water came from an apt. behind mine and into mine, I started questioning what was BETWEEN the apartments and sure enough...mold EVERYWHERE!!! We moved to another apartment and my daughter fully recovered in a matter of DAYS. Anyhow, just a thought. Sorry to be so long winded!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/26/06 02:13 AM

its genetic
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/27/06 10:07 PM

the mold option was explored but dismissed when the 3rd girl was produced in a different location and different conditions. i talked to my vet about it and he was very sure that under these circumstances, mold could not be the cause. the fact that two sets in two different locations had the same disability rules out most environmental possibilities.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 03/28/06 12:25 AM

Ah, ok. I didn't realize they were produced in different locations. I wasn't sure mold would even be an issue, but since your vet explored that possibility I will be careful with mine since I live in the same apartment complex as before, just a different apt. I'm very curious and will be watching this thread to see what comes up.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 04/23/06 03:48 AM

I don't know how closely related this may be but it's worth a shot. My mother, way back when, raised large breed dogs like mastiffs and great-danes. One of her mastiffs had a few pups that exhibited the EXACT same behavior as your gliders, from the head flipping back and to the side to preferring to remain on their backs with their feet in the air. What the doc's came to the conclusion of was that they had a congenital middle ear deformity that, for whatever reason, made the dogs feel as though they were constantly upside down and falling. I never figured out exactly how that worked but apparently they always felt best upside down because that was the only position where they felt like they weren't falling and felt right-side up. I am not sure if it was their actual inner ear or the part of the brain that processes it's signals. One vet that we went to (after so many had no clue) picked up one of the pups and rocked her straight back. The dog didn't lean into it, try to flip over, or stretch out it's legs like a regular dog should. The vet knew right away what it was, told us all about it, what to expect, and how to live with it.

Congenital defects are common in dogs of any particular breed because of the inbreeding to bring out certain traits.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 04/23/06 04:47 AM

Sowen - that's fascinating that a similar phenotype showed up in dogs... which supports the theory that this is genetic (though how complicated it is I'm not sure!)

an inner ear problem would make perfect sense for the behavior shown in the videos... it would be interesting to find out if it is neurological (perhaps a proprioceptive nerve malfuction/formation) or if it is structural (as in the inner ear is malformed causing the semicircular canals to "reverse" gravity, if you will)

I don't mean to be morbid, but if one of these gliders were to die, a necropsy would be helpful, especially if the vet doing it was aware of the condition and theory on cause...

Sowen - do you think you could share the advice that vet gave on dealing with the puppies - as it might have some relevance on the care of these 3 poor gliders?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 04/23/06 05:22 PM

There were three English Mastiff pups in the litter. One had to be put down because its movements were so violent it couldn't nurse from mom or a bottle.

The other two, well, the hardest part was making it to about 3 months of age. They annoyed their mother when nursing and she would get up and leave, so they had to have supplemental bottle feedings. But bid dogs are very smart, close to that of a small child, maybe a 7 year old human or so. A lot of their behaviors we were able to train them out of. I mad a V out of wood and foam and stuck them in it to sleep. That forced them to sleep upright and kept them from flipping over. Whenever they would lay down, we would right them. And at night, they got stuck in the V. After maybe 6 months, the flipping over on the back behavior was pretty much gone. We had to use food and water bowls that were attached to a board that was big enough for the dogs to stand on when they ate. We had to do that because the head flip would shoot their food and water bowls flying across the room shooting food and water everywhere. I noticed that they did much, much less head flipping when they were leashed. I thought that was because the leash and its pull gave them a stable frame of reference. I made some heavy weighted collars for them and it really cut down on the head flipping. After about a year, they were almost normal dogs.

When they were 2 y/o, one went to live with my uncle and we kept the other. The one my uncle got was a male. When he was about 4, he went crazy and tried to kill my uncle. Keep in mind these are 230+lb dogs. He went totally nuts and attacked everything that moved. He ended up getting the dog locked in the basement and called the police. The police came along with animal control. Unfortunately, the dog had to be shot by police.

The other, the female, she lived an almost normal life until she was 9 y/o and started having seizures (common in older mastiffs). She made it a couple more years on medication until she was put down at 11.

What's more, the mother had several other normal litters with a different stud (male) before and after this litter. The stud of that litter had other normal litters before and after. The only thing I could come up with is that it was something specific about that pairing. The 2 parents were not related. We actually got the stud (a proven breeder) from a breeder in Central America. The mom came from a local breeder as a pup. So my thinking is that both parents carried recessive genes of that trait. Keep in mind, my mother was a successful breeder and there were no different environmental factors at play for this litter that weren't for countless other litters which were all totally normal.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 04/25/06 09:32 PM

hey, sorry i'm a little slow to respond <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

your theory is very interesting, the lack of relation is a factor but the whole issue with inbreeding is that the defects otherwise difficult to reproduce in genes will surface because there are so many repetitive genes...but an inner ear defect is something that was suggested a few times, although it was more along the lines of an inner ear infection, which i dismmissed when whisper started to display similar traits as a 2 week old joey, and her twin did not. how many puppies were in the litter? i'm curious about percentages...since our percentage is so high, 3/4, it seems like such an oddity to get so many from a recessive trait, it should have been 1/4.

this might explain a lot about their behavior, their inability to learn to use common things like a water bottle or a wheel...i can't imagine trying to run in a wheel upside down. while i don't feel corrective action needs to be taken, i would be interested in the possibility that i can make them more comfortable. i do know that they prefer hammock-like pouches to traditional pouches. i also remember that whisper would sleep bundled up hanging from a fleece vine a lot when i first got her.

is there any way to check for this defect while they are alive? xrays or something? i have to admit i would be relieved if this is the problem because i've been worried about whether their physical health might be compromised. my dimitri, though, that boy is a rock. he's a tough little cookie. i've never seen such a solid glider. tegan is a lot like him and whisper is quickly losing her fragility as she grows. i hear that beatrice has a pair of joeys ip due in early june, so we will soon find out if it is codominant or recessive...although i still can't say i condone spreading a recessive gene with effects like this. our gliders breed healthy today, but what kinds of recessive genes will pop up in the not-so-distant future? we have to remember how small our gene pool is...especially our color gene pool.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 04/25/06 09:45 PM

the high percentage might not be so high... since there is a small number of individuals (you said there was a total of 4 from this pairing?) it might only APPEAR to be high... assuming this is a 'normal' Mendellian recessive trait, the probability of the 2 recessive alleles coming together once is 1/4 each time... the fact there were 3 born might only be coincidence (like a family having 3 boys in a row) - the probability of it happening is low, but so low that it is improbable...

however - the likely hood it is a single recessive gene is slim and it's probably a combination of a few genes that may or may not be linked...

unfortunately there's no way to know the genetics for sure and there's no way knowing the genetics will help these babies (even if it might benefit some future animals)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 04/30/06 01:38 PM

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This is an example of why inbreeding is BAD

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Thought I'd make some comments on inbreeding for people to think about. It seems people naturally are quick to condemn inbreeding because of our familiarity with its ill-effects on humans. I posted this on another site, as well.

I think it's important to consider that different animals handle inbreeding differently, on a genetic level, that is. For instance, the flourishing of most parasitic fauna like human hair lice or aphids or tapeworms only requires one gravid member to produce a whole colony of healthy individuals, all continually interbreeding and producing more healthy individuals. Even animals like every single ant/bee/wasp/termite species for the most part mate with siblings over several generations (with reproductive members here and there mating with members of other colonies in the area, which to certain degree still promotes inbreeding) and produce hundreds of thousands of healthy offspring in their lifetime and have been doing so for millions of years in their existence.

Also, mice can handle (generally speaking, again) a certain amount of inbreeding moreso than humans can, for instance. The ability to handle inbreeding is a necessary asset to their very survival and continuation of their species. I believe the degree to which an organism can "handle" (I don't know what other word to use here) inbreeding may be affected by factors such as 1) the nature of the organism to exploit and populate an area of a high resources and 2) I'm guessing it's in the genes, too (i.e. the ability to handle inbreeding).

Interesting... It's amazing when you consider how physiologically different many animals often are from human beings. Many animals have evolved to supercede some of the most basic rules (:oftop Have you guys ever heard of the desert lizard species composed of entirely females, which "stimulate" each other to lay eggs, which hatch into more females? Let that sink in your brain a little! LOL. Also, female aphids will clone themselves, giving birth to exact genetic clones. In both cases aforementioned, the process of reproduction is called parthenogenesis).

Actually, having said that, as it relates to this thread, perhaps gliders can handle a little inbreeding better than we think. Out of curiosity now, are gliders considered pests in Australia? I'd imagine they are for Acacia farmers... Are they analagous to mice but for agricultural tree crops?

Relating to this thread, then, my guess is that the handicapped gliders are a result of a point mutation in the chromosomes (e.g. the point mutation of chromosome 21 in humans is the result of Down Syndrome) somewhere. Perhaps the condition is neurological, as was suggested. I also suspect that it may have something to do with the ears. There are a few possibilities that I would consider before assuming it's an inbreeding issue.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 05/02/06 06:34 PM

hey mikey, you have good points, and we all know you like to play devil's advocate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i maintain that this was an issue with irresponsible breeding though, while inbreeding can be alright in some species, it's not really in others. it has to do with the diversity of the gene pool. while sugar gliders in australia may very well be more resilient when inbred, you have to remember that the pets we know and love didn't come from australia, they all came from some little islands off the coast of australia, which cuts the gene pool down quite dramatically. why do you think humans can't be inbred? the same issue--scientists have created DNA maps that suggest that humans had a bottleneck in genetic contributors at one point, likely caused by some kind of natural disaster or disease. the gene pool was cut down to something like 1000 people and grew from there...a group of scientific adams and eves.

why is it that inbreeding is bad for some species? because genes that will otherwise remain dormant or recessive and rare will start to be doubled and will manifest in the offspring. the act of inbreeding itself is not bad, if you had a pair of perfect speciments that had absolutely no genetic faults, you could breed an entire population on those two. unfortunately, such a thing is nearly impossible to find without genetic engineering. what remains is that if a genetic flaw is found, inbreeding with that line is bad. it's that simple. sometimes outbreeding is bad as well because it simply spreads the flaw to other offspring that will make it easier for the flaw to become a problem in the future. what i find interesting about this community is that if someone pops up on the boards and says "hey, my brother and sister glider had joeys a while ago, and i think their daughter is pregnant!" people will flip out. and yet...look at some of the lines major color breeders are creating on a regular basis. brothers bred to sisters...aunts to nephews...grandparents to grandchildren...and this is considered ok in the interest of the color. so, does that mean that color is more important than health? i sure hope not, although i have seen instances when a proven genetically flawed pair has simply been separated from each other and paired with other gliders, and for some reason down the line the gene shows up again. can't imagine why.

so, i agree, mikey, inbreeding itself is not bad...the results, however, in a gene pool that is not diverse, can be quite bad. we still don't know all that much about sugar glider genetics, there are a few base rules when it comes to color breeding but in all honesty we still have a lot to learn. we are getting careless though, and things are popping up that aren't good. why don't we know if gliders can eat chocolate? simply because no one wants to find out firsthand that they can't. it should be the same for gliders...we don't know for sure what inbreeding will create but do we really want to find out? unfortunately, we are.
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 05/05/06 03:19 PM

The Special Needs forum is for

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Topics for the care of gliders with long term physical defects, including mobility, sight, and hearing impaired gliders. These topic will include housing, care, toys, pouches, and other accessories.

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Please keep discussions of breeding and genetics in the proper forum.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 05/06/06 07:14 AM

My bad! Mea culpa!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 06/11/06 01:19 AM

awww, that's awfull, i'm glad your taking the time to take care of the little ones and they're special needs. In my opinion i don't think inbreeding is right, i think there's to many risks and just to get a pretty color, um my own opinion i'd never do it, i breed hamsters and was advised i could inbreed 1 and or 2ed daughtor with dad, Not i won't put my little ones' under risk of health issues and problems but i'm so glad to hear that you are doing something to correct and find out so it stops from happening more and it looks like you're doing a great job with the little ones good luck!
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 06/11/06 06:26 AM

update...

beatrice has two white faced boys oop a few days ago with kiki's lion boy. one is going to a local couple that kiki knows is uninterested in breeding (he and his future cagemate will be neutered soon) and the other boy is coming down here to me. no word yet on their condition, we usually find out at around 2 or 3 weeks old. i am hoping i will be able to put him in with whisper and jasper. i will post if either boy turns out to have the condition...i doubt either will, but if they do this will be very unfortunate and very important news to relay to the glider community. all of bea's line will be at risk of passing on the gene.

Attached picture 583179-Atari.jpg
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders - 06/11/06 04:53 PM

[:"blue"] Several times in this thread it has been requested the topic stay, as intended, on how to care for gliders who are mentally/functionally handicapped NOT the genetics involved.

At one point the thread was even moved to Breeding because it had gone so far off topic.

Once again this thread is so far off topic someone reading to gain information on how to care for a glider would have difficulty finding what they needed.

We feel it is necessary to lock this thread at this time. Any topic relating to the genetics of this condition should be posted in the Breeding & Babies Forum.

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