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possible SM glider

Posted By: kelz0429

possible SM glider - 11/21/06 04:56 AM

I am very worried about my new boy, Stump. I have heard him make a very strange noise over and over again, night after night. It does not really sound like the noise that is featured on the SM page and he only makes it (as far as I know) when there is another glider in the pouch with him. Could his noise be different? Are there any other recordings of it? Is it possible that you cannot see the damage that is being done? I would love to see pictures of SM, but the pictures are not up on the SM site.

I am not really sure what to do. I have an appointment with my vet next week, so I do not want to jump to any conclusions and jump the gun. Given that his sounds does not sound like the SM sound featured on the site, I am not 100% convinced that he is doing it. Also, I cannot really detect any blood on him. Are there any pictures of glider anatomy, so that I can take a look and see what everything is supposed to look like (I am familiar with anatomy of female gliders, not as familiar with male gliders' anatomy).

It is hard to describe the noise he makes, it does end in a crab, but the beginning sounds more like a breathy weezing sound.

Any thoughts/advice?
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 05:04 AM

i can't really help with the noise, but here's a good anatomy site: http://bmxglider.tripod.com/glideranatomy.html
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 05:09 AM

Does the sound seem like a cry like he's in pain? Can you describe it a little more? Yes it is possible for him to be making the SM sound several days before actually doing damage. Be sure you are ready with an ecollar and keep a close eye on him.

FURBYnGIZMO may have another recording of the SM sound. You might check with her.

The anatomy site that Becki linked you to is the same one I was going to suggest.

Since you said he only makes the sound when another glider is in the pouch with him, is it possible they are fighting or mating?

I hope he's okay. You can always contact Jen/Xfilefan with any SM questions. She is our expert on it, along with Bourbon and several others.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 05:18 AM

http://sm.all4gliders.com/ - Please go here - if he is SM, they will be the best ones to help you!
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Monster
http://sm.all4gliders.com/ - Please go here - if he is SM, they will be the best ones to help you!


I spent quite a while on this site earlier (it is the site I referred to a few times in my original post) but, short of calling someone, the information on the site is not very helpful to me.

I wish I could describe the noise more fully. IT is a very strange noise. I really need to hear another recording of it. Would someone please help me find one?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 03:26 PM

If he is with another glider how long has bene with them. Mine will make this noise to talk to one another. It's almost like a heavy breathing combined with hissing or something. It's like an annoyed get your foot out of my eye kinda thing
Posted By: Xglider

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 03:34 PM

Kelz – I just posted on your other thread about the intors, and wanted to see what you were talking about with the SM stuff… I have to admit I have no experience with SM gliders, so I am sorry I can’t offer you any help there, you should PM Jen/Xfilefan, as PeeperKeeper noted she is one of our resident SM experts…
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 04:07 PM

I just PM-ed Xfilefan. I am going to try to record the noise tonight (he only seems to do it at night), which will be a challenge, as my digital recorder is broken and my other recording devices have low quality output. I am going to make an ECollar just in case.

Thank you all for your advice.
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: possible SM glider - 11/21/06 10:56 PM

Is he 'flossing'? What I mean, does he have is penis out when he is making this noise?
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 03:11 AM

I have never been able to see him when he is making the noise. He makes it inside the pouch. He just made it a few seconds ago, and it sounds a bit like a breathy hiss followed by a very short crab. Are there any other noises associated with SM?

Does the SM noise sound a bit like a muffled or hollowed hiss with a short crab?

Posted By: FURBYnGIZMO

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 01:05 PM


My apologies for not posting earlier but I MYSELF am dealing with this and luckily all went well at the vet and my Gizzy is fine...

HERE is the sound I was able to record...if at all familiar please contact me and if you haven't contacted XFilefan (Jen) please try again... hug2
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 01:42 PM

Once in a blue moon, Timmy makes this sound (I peeked in, he was flossing.) But he doesn't do it all the time, just every now and then and it isn't alot like on this recording is it once or twice, very quick. Should I be worried? He always comes out and his penis goes back in and as I said he has not done it for a while. If I hear it again, what should I do?

I just listened again. Timmy doesn't do the crabbing part, just a little 'screech' once or twice and that is it.
Posted By: Xglider

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 01:59 PM


Hey Jenny, thanks for the recording, Kelly PMed me (the X confusion) and I started a multi PM with Jen/Xfiles, I also called her last night and left her a Vmail that this was happening, I believe she may have started a new job and is in training…
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 02:23 PM

That's the sound! Now I am in a bit of a panic.

PM sent, FURBYnGIZMO.
Posted By: FURBYnGIZMO

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 02:42 PM


Check your inbox...PM sent hug2
Posted By: FURBYnGIZMO

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 02:46 PM


Please note that the sound in the background is my Gizzy running in the WHEEL and Giz would stop every so often and make this scary sound worried
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 03:21 PM

Thanks, Jenny--

Another PM sent.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 03:27 PM

I haven't had any experience with this but I just wanted to let you know that I will be thinking about you and Stump. hug2
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 05:24 PM

Thank you for your thoughts!
Posted By: FURBYnGIZMO

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 05:57 PM


Kelly I returned your PM again...

sorry for delays on messages but I'm drowning here at work b4 the holiday weekend help
Posted By: Judie

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 06:21 PM

My suggestion is to take your little male glider to the vet ASAP. Have them do a direct fecal smear and also a urine analysis.

Constipation, urinary tract infections and then parasitic problems are most common causes for self mutilation in gliders.

E-Collar is a must.
Posted By: FURBYnGIZMO

Re: possible SM glider - 11/22/06 06:48 PM


I gave her instuction on how to make an e-collar and I haven't heard back anything yet worried

I hope and pray this is nothing serious and Kelly is at the vets as I post this.

Please keep us posted hug2
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider - 11/23/06 12:57 AM

Hello--I am sorry for not responding since this afternoon--I got off work earlier than I had anticipated and had have been running errands all day preparing for the holiday weekend.

I bought the materials for an ecollar but I have not taken him to the vet, as I am not sure whether it is him making the noise. I meant to mention (but have seen that I did not mention) that I did not hear the noise last night before or after separating Idgie and Stump. I planned to see how things go tonight in order to determine who is making the noise.

Was it a mistake on my part not to take him to the vet today (assuming that it is him making the noise)?

Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: possible SM glider - 11/23/06 08:26 AM

Sometimes these can be hard. If he was alone in the pouch, and you heard that, I'd be telling you to RUN to the vet. The SM noise is like a glider in an all out fight -only no other glider is there, and it's a response to pain. It can come/go for awhile prior to damage, and mostly at first, when you look, they just look back like "What?". If you hear it from HIM without another glider present, vet is the next immediate step (Collar IMMEDIATELY if he's paying attention to a particular body part when making the sound, or if you see ANY damage or blood you're not sure where came from). Females can make a similar sound when in heat-but that will simply go away after a day or so, and doesn't usually have the intensity of the SM noise (although there is one notable exception lately with Jenny's girl). You were given the urine/fecals to ask for.

If you do determine it's him, also ask the vet for a pain med such as torb...that's important. Preventing external damage is the SINGLE most important thing, and vital to recovery, so Collar and pain meds are first priority, followed by antibiotic for either actual or suspected infection (minimum 14 day course).

Please keep us updated. worried
Posted By: myangelbear77

Re: possible SM glider - 11/23/06 12:16 PM

I am confused. All of my cages make sounds like thous..one was doing it as I listned. but all of my cages are pairs and trios (no breeders). And i have never had an sm situation. i have found that these noises are all more grouchy "get outta my face" noises. but you are saying if a lone glider makes the same sound it COULD be Sm?
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: possible SM glider - 11/23/06 12:29 PM

IF it's the sound in the recording, it's possible. It's hard to describe intensity in a sound. With SM, a glider will pay particular attention to a body part (cloaca, abdomen, tail, etc), or be actively chewing at iself along with the noise. At first, that can be very hard to catch, and it's not going to be quite the same as any other sound your glider makes. A male glider should NEVER make a noise like that unless he's in a fight. Also with an SM/potential SM, it may start out brief, but as the underlying condition develops (days to a week or so), it will last longer and longer, and he'll bury his or her face in whatever it is that's hurting-at some point they'll chew on YOU as opposed to leave it alone and distraction is not an option. The first day or two, the glider may stop when you look in to see what's going on and look at you like "What?". With an SM, it WON'T stay that way. Don't know if this helped any, but I tried.
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 04:04 PM

Hello all!

Okay--Idgie and Stump were separated for nearly two weeks and I did not hear Stump make the noise while he was alone.

Last night, however, I tried introductions again and heard the noise many times when they were in the pouch together--never when he was in a pouch or the nesting box alone.

Do you all think this might mean that he is making this noise as a sort of leave me alone/stay out of my space type noise? Could this be them fighting inside the pouch? I have never seen what is going on when Stump is making the noise, so i am pretty much clueless. As soon as I get up from my chair, the noise stops.

Any thoughts? Advice?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 06:17 PM

To me it sounds as if its just them bickering with each other. If they didn’t make the sound at all when they were separated for 2 weeks and then the sound suddenly started again when they were reintroduced, then its possible that they’re just annoyed with each other in the pouch because one is moving around and possibly stepping on the other…

Have you tried maybe getting them a larger pouch or one with a squarer bottom area so they have more room to move around? Or maybe putting a second pouch in the cage so they don’t have to share if they don’t want to? You can try that to see if it stops the noise.

Unfortunately I can’t tell you that its not SM, but if you’re still unsure after trying all of that, then it might be best just to take them both to the vet.

I hope they’re fine and just moody with each other…
Keep an eye on them and let us know if anything changes.

Much love,
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 07:07 PM

The introductions should be supervised before you leave them alone together.
Try letting them play together during tent time (or it's equivalent) for a while.
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 07:36 PM

So should I separate them again? I feel like I am just doing this all wrong.

Aren't I in some danger of causing emotional damage to Idgie? I am aware of the fact that there is a risk of physical damage, but they seem fine outside of the pouch.

Could Stump just be a glider who wants to be alone/does not want a companion?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 07:59 PM

Now that I'm re-reading this, Idgie and Stump are both boys? Are they intact? If yes, you will need to neuter one or preferrably, both.
And Idgie is the second glider you have tried to introduce to Stump? Have they ever been together? Introductions can take a long time, you can't just expect them to get along after a week.
I suggest fixing the boys, then go WAY slower on the introductions.
I got lucky, my guys (neutered) got along within 1-2 weeks. But there are others who have been working on intros for months. Don't just toss them in the cage together after 1 week. You need to start with supervised play time.
First, give the new glider his own toys, pouches, cage set, etc. New things that have not been used by your other glider. That way, the new one can claim them as his own, and has no scent of the other glider.
I did a period where they were separated in different cages and put far away from eachother.
Then I put the cages next to eachother, but out of reach.
Then I started pouch and toy swapping.
Then you can start supervised play time. Like in the tent, just make sure you bring in neutral toys, or a mix of both of theirs.
Even before putting them in the same cage, I made sure I could carry them around in the same bonding pouch. I wanted to be sure they could sleep next to eachother before I'd let them be wide awake with eachother unsupervised.
After you see how that goes, you can start putting them into one cage. I slept in my living room where my cage is for the first few nights in case anything happened.

Can you see where, if done properly, proper introductions can take a lot of time?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 08:21 PM

My guys tend to bicker in their pouch too from time to time, but they’re fine when they’re out of their pouch. They play together and groom each other like normal. Suggies will make little half crab sounds when they annoy each other, but most of the time its not something to really worry about.

If you see that the noise is COMPLETELY pouch related, try putting in another pouch like I mentioned in my last post. Being that they are totally ok with each other otherwise, I don’t think you’d need to separate them completely….

You should worry about separating them permanently if you notice that they fight continuously in AND out of their pouch or if you see that they have bite marks on their body from fighting or see them fighting first hand.

If you see bite marks on their body, separate them immediately and make sure that they aren’t doing it to themselves! At which point you should take them to their vet right away.

But I wouldn’t separate them if its only about their pouch, as this could easily stress them out. Try your other options first to see if that stops the noise.
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 09:26 PM

aproductof,

This is the third time they have been together during a 3 and one half week long period of introductions. They have been living directly next door to one another for 2 weeks, while they were only a few feet away from each other for the first week Stump was with me. Idgie is female--I have had her for a month and one half. Both Idgie and Stump are approximately 15 weeks oop. Stump's bald spot is not yet developing, so they are still very young. They have slept in the same pouch many times. They are perfectly fine when they are sleeping during the day. They have even gone on a road trip in one pouch. I have also heard a lot of socializing in their room at night (barking and chattering/clicking. I believe that Idgie is the most verbal.
I have been pouch swapping and toy swapping. for about 2 weeks. Stump had his own cage and toys before I started swapping. There is a thread dedicated to their introductions.

I am trying to follow the proper introduction procedures. It just seems that when they are showing all the signs of being okay, it should be okay to try to put them together for good. As they are my first two gliders, I am extra anxious about all of this and hyper-sensetive to anything that seems like it could be out of the norm.

The main reason I revived this thread is b/c I heard the possible SM noise again, last night, after not hearing it while Stump was alone. Given this pattern (SM noise when with other gliders), I am beginning to think that Stump is just not into the idea of a companion.

Could this be the case?
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/01/06 09:30 PM

Yeah, they have four sleeping options in the cage (three pouches and a nesting box). They seem to want to be together. I have noticed Stump try to move to his own quarters a few times.

This may seem like a strange question, but: are bite marks easily seen on a glider's body? I mean, is it sometimes easy to miss a wound?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/02/06 12:20 AM

Suggies talk to each other a lot. And sometimes they argue. Fighting, real fighting is pretty obvious, and some one usually ends up thrown out of the pouch.

It sound to me like they are just working things out.

Do they share their food bowl without fighting over it? If they are peaceful when they share food, they are probably just having a little squabble in their pouch.

"Ouchhhhh, that is my face."

"Well, youre stepping on my tail"

"You stepped on my face first"

"Hissssss. Stop that. My stomach is not your pillow"

"Sooooo, MOVE OVER"

"YOU move over"

Godspeed

Angel cloud9
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/02/06 03:28 AM

They do share food without problems. I have seen them sitting on the same crock, eating together.

This is a very good sign, I take it?
Posted By: myangelbear77

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/02/06 04:49 PM

To me it sounds like they are making normal noises. The sounds in the recording were I would say exactly the same as the ones I hear in my cages on a regular basis and it is NOT SM noise. It is what Angleskates said they are bickering like any couple saying things like hey quit poking me...thats my toe your squishing! quit pulling my tail and I want the bottom where its wamer! From what you have described they are a normal loving couple learning how to live with each other. Anyone that has learned to live with a person knows what that means. It sounds like you are being a great glider slave and they will have many happy healthy years together. I would not seperate them if they are not obviously fighting.
Posted By: kelz0429

Re: possible SM glider (UPDATE) - 12/05/06 02:30 PM

Thank you all for your input!

I feel much better now and I hope that we are right in thinking that this is all normal behavior and not anything dangerous.

smile
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