GliderCENTRAL

(Toxic cage thread) Update on Recall - PART TWO

Posted By: Gizmogirl

(Toxic cage thread) Update on Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 01:21 PM

See PART ONE
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 01:45 PM

Hi All, I am new to this forum... I am happy I found it, but not happy a sick glider brought me here.

I purchased 2 gliders from Pocket Pets the end of Feb this year. About 2 weeks ago one of my gliders started shaking so bad she was literally blurry. I took her to an emergency vet that had an exotic specialist who treats gliders. He diagnosed her with calcium deficiency and HLP from the poor diet given to me from Pocket Pets. She went back for a checkup 4 days later because I wasn't seeing an improvement and I thought she was having seizures. He assured me she was not, and that she needed more time on her new diet and meds. After a week of a marginal improvement, I sent an irate email to the pocket pets people. I was enraged because I thought a poor diet that I had fed her caused my poor critter to be in this horrible condition. I cry every day when I see her shake uncontrollably knowing there is nothing I can do for her. She is still about the same, although she was showing more energy this morning when I had her out. I have a follow up apt with my vet this Saturday with whom I will share the info about the poison cage. I haven’t decided if I want to do the treatment that is outlined by Pocket Pets, I want to discuss with a medical professional first.

When I spoke with Adam from Pocket Pets he gave me the whole story about the cage. This made me even more mad, because they knew there was something wrong and hadn’t notified me. I don’t know if anyone else received the “sick glider” email… but it was crazy, and full of far too much personal info. I ordered a new cage from http://www.sugar-glider-store.com/ because I don’t want to wait for them to get around to sending me a new one, nor do I want to chance the new one being contaminated too. In all honesty I wish I had never given Pocket Pets a dime in the first place, nor will I ever again. I do not regret getting my 2 babies, I just wish I had gotten them elsewhere.

I requested a FULL refund for EVERYTHING I ever purchased from Pocket Pets. I literally had to throw out a year’s supply of food after my vet told me how terrible their food is for my babies, now my cage is poison and I have an animal that is suffering and it is breaking mine, my son’s and my husband’s hearts to see her like this. On top of this I have already spent $400 in vet bills and $200 on a new cage, and am spending all of my free time attempting to nurse my sick glider to health. If Pocket Pets refuses to give me a refund (which is likely) I will be seeking legal counsel. Please let me know if anyone else is in my situation and wants to take action against them.

Good luck to all in this terrible situation, and I will certainly add any additional info I get. And will keep the board updated on my glider’s progress. I have managed to keep her going for 2 weeks, and the tip I can give to anyone with a sick glider is to get as much food/water into them as possible. I have been feeding a very varied range including HPW, baby food, baby cereal and straight Pedialyte.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 02:25 PM

I don't know how to explain this so people understand this problem is NOT a Pocket Pets, Martins, Klubertanz or individual issue.

This is faulty/toxic/poison wire from a wire manufacturer who MANY use for cage building and other things.

Most people inside the community know that we even have some top notch vendors here who use pvc coated wire for travel cages and other things that they sell to us.

Blaming any company for the wire being bad other than the wire manufacturer is silly.

Obviously PP has a less than stellar reputation but this could have well been our daytrippers that were bad, would we blame the maker for being sold dangerous wire without her having known that...NO. We would expect her to replace or refund those cages but it wouldn't be her fault that a wire manufacturer had sold her [censored] wire.

As much as anyone hates to admit it, this time Pocket Pets was the victim of the same wire that Martins and many private pet owners were. Placing the blame for this on them would be the same as me blaming any person here that bought bad wire and built their own cage.
I was buying wire to build/modify my cages due to having a sudden attack of glideritis.....so am I to blame for buying [censored] wire I THOUGHT was safe because it has been before?
Posted By: nancy1202

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
I don't know how to explain this so people understand this problem is NOT a Pocket Pets, Martins, Klubertanz or individual issue.

This is faulty/toxic/poison wire from a wire manufacturer who MANY use for cage building and other things.
I am one of those who has used this wire for years to make my own cages. I have had wire sent to my home to help locals/newbies make their own cages and am just sick about this. It is not my fault, but I can't help but feel responsible. I have notified everyone of the ongoing issue, and symptoms to watch for.

It has not yet been determined if this wire was manufactured/shipped since October 2010, or possibly was the subject of a previous recall and has been sitting "somewhere" since then. The manufacturer does not know me from Adam, and has no record of doing business with me. My only recourse would be to deal with the supplier of the wire, not necessarily to place blame, but because that is who I purchased the wire from. The supplier then can take the appropriate action against the manufacturer
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 05:09 PM

Quote:
As much as anyone hates to admit it, this time Pocket Pets was the victim of the same wire that Martins and many private pet owners were.


And as much as anyone hates to admit it, it seems PP is stepping up (replacing cages and sadly gliders). I do feel though that they should also be responsible for the vet bills for those gliders too.
Posted By: Mel2mdl

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: nancy1202
Originally Posted By: Trigger
I don't know how to explain this so people understand this problem is NOT a Pocket Pets, Martins, Klubertanz or individual issue.

This is faulty/toxic/poison wire from a wire manufacturer who MANY use for cage building and other things.
I am one of those who has used this wire for years to make my own cages. I have had wire sent to my home to help locals/newbies make their own cages and am just sick about this. It is not my fault, but I can't help but feel responsible. I have notified everyone of the ongoing issue, and symptoms to watch for.


AND, I think that notification is the issue with this new person. If you know that something you sold is now dangerous and YOU DON'T warn the people who bought from you, it is your issue now. I would furious if I had a daytripper or a cage that I purchased and the person who made knew something was wrong and didn't tell me.

I am impressed that PP is recalling and reacting as quickly as they did. But they should also be notifying people, as should Martin's as should anyone who has this wire.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 05:22 PM

I believe that PP is emailing all their customers that they can.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 06:26 PM

Midien: SOME PPP cages have been affected. Maybe those cages have the odor too? OR... Did you detect this odor because the cage had never been washed? dunno Or had/have you washed the cage and the odor remains? I'm trying to clarify all aspects.

Jill Marie: Your post as thumb great. In all aspects. Thank you for clarifying for Ikeda the rapture portion of his post as well your opinion about housing gliders in cages that hold possible toxicity. I agree, 100%

MissSarah and FuzzierThanMost: I believe Ikeda use the rapture and vaccination 'points' wasn't to turn attention away from this cage issue. I believe he was sincerely was trying to prove his point. He just happened to be off base, at least in one of those aspects. Can't say for certain with the vaccination deal as nobody knows for certain. tounge

Last but not least, as has been stated before, we all know how we feel about PPP. It's not the best opinion we have on them, though we have good reason to feel the way we do. BUT... They ARE stepping up to the plate on this one (so far) and they DO deserve kudos for that.
Posted By: Ikeda

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 06:40 PM

Just to note: My intent was NOT to stir a pot whether it be religious, suggie related, etc. (I just used examples easily at hand). My only intent was to get the community to realize that there were no results yet people were posting some very pointed comments that were not backed by any sort of evidence.

I'm sorry to those I may have offended as I've been a member of this community just like ya'll. I would have posted this in the other post but it's locked and frankly I want it on the table. I'm REALLY not a bad person and I feel like I've been demonized for my point of view.
Posted By: Midien

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 06:44 PM

Megs: *shrug* They're both washed, but I can't say I know for sure if mine were affected, because I pulled my baby before he got sick. Not sure what it might mean, OR if it might be helpful, but I figured it couldn't hurt to pass along in the event it might be useful to someone. It's really the only observation I can contribute, until there's a way to test our cages or somethin'. frown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 06:53 PM

Mel2mdl - You are correct. Apparently Pocket Pets had been doing testing for MONTHS (well before I purchased my pair from them) on mysterious illnesses with gliders. Had I known what to be looking out for from the start, my girl could be much farther along to the path to recovery instead of wasting time being treated for an illness she doesn't have. They only communicated with me after I came forward with a serious issue.

That coupled with my feelings of being completely misled by the organization in terms of proper nutrition/care have me feeling seriously wronged.

PS - there was absolutley no odor to my cage.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 06:55 PM

Don't hurt at all to pass on any info we can get.

And if anyone happens to KNOW FOR SURE a safe material for me to use that is not the stinky plastic hardware cloth for my cage needs that would be super helpful. I really need to do some cage mods yesterday but at this point I trust NO coated wire mesh.(and they are in the middle of my home so pretty helps. LOL)
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 07:02 PM

Quote:
Apparently Pocket Pets had been doing testing for MONTHS (well before I purchased my pair from them) on mysterious illnesses with gliders.


This is FALSE. They have NOT been testing for Months. Although there have been tests done prior to the first case PPP had. There were SEVERAL cases prior to PPP ever having their first case come forward.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 07:44 PM

That is what Adam himself told me.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 07:52 PM

Testing in general has been done for months.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Midien
Megs: *shrug* They're both washed, but I can't say I know for sure if mine were affected, because I pulled my baby before he got sick. Not sure what it might mean, OR if it might be helpful, but I figured it couldn't hurt to pass along in the event it might be useful to someone. It's really the only observation I can contribute, until there's a way to test our cages or somethin'. frown


Ok. Just wanted to clarify.
Well then your observation might actually have something to offer. It seems rather valid.. IMO anyway.
I think it's great you pulled them from the cage. Better safe than sorry. hug2
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 09:27 PM

Peggy, thanks for coming over to give input on this subject hug2

Here are my questions, mostly from the original post on page one of this discussion, about testing. I've seen these remarks, and am wondering, exactly WHAT is being tested if we don't know what the toxicity is?? That's the most confusing part to me.

I'm also worried about wire used for wheels. Do I need to worry about the wire I'm using for my wodent re-models? I guess that one is a question for Bourbon, she should know where my wire came from thumb


Originally Posted By: Trigger/Peggy
...Along with the cage wire tests, there have also been many Necropsies and Histopaths and even a CT completed. Although there are peripheral signs of toxins, they are far from conclusive at this point, and unless you are aware of the exact toxin to test for, we may never know the actual cause of this problem...

... and their manufacturer has already been working round the clock for the past 72 hours testing wire and beginning to build new cages using a wire source that is proven to be safe...

...If any more cases come up, I am in hopes that folks will contact me so I can send the information over to the people that are trying to figure this out and maybe, just maybe, we will be able to find out what the problem is Once again, the ONLY thing ALL of these gliders have in common is the cage wire being used. At this point nobody knows what is affecting the cages - other than that there have been multiple tests by independent sources for lead - and all those tests indicate that lead is not the problem.

Since the cages already tested were negative for lead, and we don't know what the toxin is that's affecting the gliders, then HOW can any wire be deemed "safe" for new cages to be built? Are these tests that the affected cage wire would have "failed"? If not, then how do we really know what wire is safe??

Originally Posted By: calliejean86
(PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets was not the first group to start testing. Testing was started back in February when this happened to gliders in CT.

calliejean, do you know exactly what tests were being performed? Was this the lead testing mentioned above?

I appreciate all the work everyone is doing to try and get to the bottom of this tragic event. We all know it, but it bears repeating...
GLIDER PEOPLE ROCK!!
Posted By: GliderGuy540

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 09:37 PM

Sari, I believe the new cages are deemed safe because there have been no reports of gliders becoming ill while in them as opposed to those cages from a different manufacturer. Does that make sense?

A major advantage PPP has is that it deals with a large number of cages/gliders and they are in a good position to know which of the two manufacturers they use has cages not making their gliders ill, and therefore we may be able to find out where this wire originated. At this time, I would not use PVC wire cages with the exception of the ones that PPP knows are not making gliders ill.

There are a number of tests that have been performed. Mainly for heavy metals such as iron and zinc. So far nothing has been identified as the culprit as far as I know, so testing continues.
Posted By: ssdreamsicles

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 10:14 PM

Ok so does anyone know what wire IS safe? What about the wire bought just a few months ago? How are they saying any wire is safe if they dont know what is the facter in the sick gliders?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
I don't know how to explain this so people understand this problem is NOT a Pocket Pets, Martins, Klubertanz or individual issue.




honestly trigger, I'm not trying to direct this towards you in an offensive way in ANY way.. but really you probably aren't the one who would know, or decide who gets to "foot" the bill on the blame here legally. It would best be decided by legal council. Maybe PP is the victim here, but legally in the business world somebody's gotta pay money here. If people want to group together a class action deal they would do that. It happens.

I'm not going to give out the total $ amount of my VET bills for Splinter but let's just say it's A LOT.

and who pays for that? I did, all of it.

Herme please contact me via private message about your post, I am interested.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: hermes
That is what Adam himself told me.


btw Hermes.. I agree.. the email was VERY weird.. and very akward.. talking about weddings and family issues and stuff.. i'm very thrown off by it.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/23/11 11:39 PM

Sari the wire i gave you is safe wire (to the best of my knowledge..)

came from totally different manufactures.. also the wire yu have came from rolls bought over a year ago..

**removed sizes and gauges as it seems to be manufacture specific ***
Posted By: nancy1202

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 12:11 AM

When was this determined? Are the Pocket Pets and Martin's cages 14 gauge? Most of us who make cages use the thinner 1/2"x1" 16 gauge wire.
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 12:37 AM

Not a cage, but .. the pvc coated mesh...

The Magnum wheel uses pvc coated wire for the track. I believe that the Custom Cruiser does, as well.

Should those of us who use wheels with pvc coated wire be concerned?


Whoops, just saw Sari's question on the wheels.
Still - I'm wondering if I should pull the Magnum wheel from my cage. Not sure if this is the kind that's affected - it has 1/4 inch holes, and I just got it in March.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 12:46 AM

no i would be be concerned at least about the cruiser and probably not the magnum, our wire lasts us a long long time. I know I got my wire early last year.. and i use a different manufacturer than both of them
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 12:48 AM

nancy i am double checking that.. awaiting a reply on the wire gauge..
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Sari the wire i gave you is safe wire (to the best of my knowledge..)

came from totally different manufactures.. also the wire yu have came from rolls bought over a year ago..

also the wire that seems to be affected is the 1"x1/2" 14 gauge, the wire I gave you is 1/4" square 19 gauge...

Thanks Lori! I thought it was the different size, but also thought it was a good idea to ask it out loud laugh
Please do not take offense that I asked (as I'm sure you didn't). I want to make sure it's OK to ship the ones I currently have here thumb
Originally Posted By: WintersSong
...Should those of us who use wheels with pvc coated wire be concerned?

Whoops, just saw Sari's question on the wheels.
Still - I'm wondering if I should pull the Magnum wheel from my cage. Not sure if this is the kind that's affected - it has 1/4 inch holes, and I just got it in March.

Sara... all wheels are made with 'square' holed mesh. From what I am reading all the mesh being questioned is 'rectangular' holed mesh. But... just to make sure, that's exactly why I asked as well. thumb
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 01:05 AM

Originally Posted By: GliderGuy540
Sari, I believe the new cages are deemed safe because there have been no reports of gliders becoming ill while in them as opposed to those cages from a different manufacturer. Does that make sense?
OK, so then I was possibly reading it incorrectly? I took it as they are testing wire, then making cages out of the wire that tested good. Instead, I believe you are saying that it is 2 different things. They are continuing to test the wire on the cages that were possibly infected, and AT THE SAME TIME building new ones FROM A DIFFERENT SOURCE that doesn't have issues. Is this correct?
So I should be reading it like th
is:

Originally Posted By: trigger/peggy
... and their manufacturer has already been working round the clock for the past 72 hours testing wire and beginning to build new cages using a wire source that is proven to be safe...

...
There are a number of tests that have been performed. Mainly for heavy metals such as iron and zinc. So far nothing has been identified as the culprit as far as I know, so testing continues.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 01:25 AM

correct sari

I want to retract the gauge of wire that may be affected.. as gauge and size isn't specific
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
no i would be be concerned at least about the cruiser and probably not the magnum, our wire lasts us a long long time. I know I got my wire early last year.. and i use a different manufacturer than both of them


Okay, thanks Bourbon.

I was told on LGG that the tracks use a completely different coating than the cages do.. Not sure if that's true, just what I was told. So I guess I don't need to worry.

I sent an email to Anita just to be sure.
Posted By: mochi

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 03:46 PM

Question for you guys:

My mother built a cage for her glider using the hardware cloth from home depot. She thinks it is pvc-coated.

Do you think this material is also a part of all this?
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 03:57 PM

The plastic hardware cloth is not involved in this.
Posted By: mochi

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
The plastic hardware cloth is not involved in this.


Thank you, Trigger. I'll pass it along.
Posted By: TheGliderPlayroom

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 04:09 PM

Does there seem to be any correlation between the width of the wire, and the illness?

I was told by Martin's that my wire didn't come from the same manufacturer as the ones they *think* are the problem, but there's no way of knowing 100% if it's safe.

The easiest way to make the PPP cages I saw the photo of, would be to use 18" wire rolls. My cages were made completely from 24" wire.

I'm wondering if different widths of wire could have come from different suppliers?
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 04:17 PM

Please Do NOT use ANY of the PVC Vinyl coated cage material at this time PERIOD!!!

It really does not matter what size gauge or what size roll...these cage manufacturing companies have a line they all go through. They all get treated with the same sprays no matter what their gauges, no matter what the roll size. It is best to not use any of it at this time.

Want to be safe? buy epoxy or powder coated cages...
Posted By: sharit

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 04:19 PM

there is a chemical in all pliable plastic. not sure of the name other than it starts with a t. there was somthing on tv about it couple weeks ago and we are exposed to it daily any plastic that is soft and bendable has it and when humans are tested for it the levels are high. could that be it and i would think a blood test would confirm it. the chemical is what makes the plastic bendable. now they know it is harmful in high doses. and about everything is made with it. going to try to find what it is called.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 06:08 PM

here is a letter i recieved from pocket pets in regard to this recall.


Since everybody who works here has these little guys as our own personal pets, we DEFINITELY understand and appreciate your concern about the cage you got from us. That being said, here's the "short version"... :-)




After spending literally tens of thousands of dollars working with the top sugar bear veterinarians for the past few weeks, we believe that we have identified the potential problem. We have conducted a thorough investigation of our supply chains – going back as far as we could through suppliers OF suppliers, etc. - and to make a very long story short, after a lot of digging we think we’ve discovered that the problem most likely originated from the SUPPLIER of one of our cage manufacturers.





As you know from reading all our special reports, we have always made a BIG deal out of having the highest quality cages – and both our manufacturer’s are well aware of that. We’ve used the same two manufacturers for many years now – and never had a single problem – not once. However, after doing a LOT of digging it “looks like” (and I say that because we’ll probably never be able to prove it) that a small company who supplies some of the cage components TO THE SUPPLIER of one of our cage manufacturers, (and as it turns out also supplies many other cage manufacturers nationwide), might have switched one of their sources without telling anyone up the line.



Now, I know this gets a little complicated, but the bottom line is that it looks like one of our cage manufacturer’s supplier’s – SUPPLIER - (or a company 4 generations removed from us) might have switched some things without telling anyone .




I am sorry but we do not receive our cages from Martins so while the cages may look the same they are two different cages.





That being said, the GOOD news is:




1) We have been able to identify the specific groups of cages that MIGHT be effected,

2) It was limited to a very specific geographic area where the purchase was made AFTER January 1st, 2011,

3) It only affects our 18"x18"x24" standard starter cage - NOT our travel cages or any of the larger Single, Double, or Outback cages.




Fortunately, because of our meticulous record-keeping, we have already been able to track down each and every potentially-effected customer - notify them - and new cages are already on their way out the door!





Therefore, if you did not already receive an alert notification via email, you do not have one of these cages and are not affected by the recall. :-)





That being said, even though this issue is affecting a LOT of other cage manufacturers and breeders across the country, we are the ONLY one we know of who decided to actually step up and DO something about it. The truth is, we could have just sat by like everybody else and done nothing - and who knows, in the end this might still all turn out to be "overkill" - but when we all sat down as a company and looked at everything - we just kept asking ourselves: "WHAT WOULD WE WANT DONE IF WE WERE OUR CUSTOMER?"... After that, the answer, (painful as it might be) was pretty easy. :-)





As you can imagine, this is costing our company a HUGE amount of money - but again, we tried to make this decision as "parents" - not a business. We sincerely apologize if the announcement alarmed you in any way, but you can KNOW that we would have contacted you first if we even suspected it might affect you. Not many businesses act like that nowadays - but it's the way we do things around here, and I'm proud to be a part of a company that CARES so much!.


That being said, I'm sure you can appreciate how swamped we all are around here right now, so I hope this has helped answer your questions. Thanks so much for contacting us.


Sincerely,

Sammi in Customer Care smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: SplinterBaker
Originally Posted By: hermes
That is what Adam himself told me.


btw Hermes.. I agree.. the email was VERY weird.. and very akward.. talking about weddings and family issues and stuff.. i'm very thrown off by it.


Welcome to letters from PPP. Scatterbrained, off topic, and irrelevant in many places.


Originally Posted By: sharit
there is a chemical in all pliable plastic. not sure of the name other than it starts with a t. there was somthing on tv about it couple weeks ago and we are exposed to it daily any plastic that is soft and bendable has it and when humans are tested for it the levels are high. could that be it and i would think a blood test would confirm it. the chemical is what makes the plastic bendable. now they know it is harmful in high doses. and about everything is made with it. going to try to find what it is called.


If that's the case should we stop giving our fuzzies milk rings? Baby links? There are a list of things that many of us give our gliders that are pliable plastic.


Kimbo, I appreciate that you've shared that letter. I appreciate that they're recalling A cage, although I do find it hard to believe (but I COULD be wrong; wouldn't be the first time roflmao )that it's only one cage of theirs. I am disgusted that they claim they are the only company doing something about it. Anybody who has been keeping up on this knows this simply is not true. shakehead
Posted By: Feather

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:
As much as anyone hates to admit it, this time Pocket Pets was the victim of the same wire that Martins and many private pet owners were.


And as much as anyone hates to admit it, it seems PP is stepping up (replacing cages and sadly gliders). I do feel though that they should also be responsible for the vet bills for those gliders too.


As should Martin's cages.

Pocket Pets and Martin's cages can then go back to their supplier and get reimbursed from them. Pocket Pets and Martin's are in the middle of this mess. It should all be laid at the feet of the company that manufactured the coated wire that has caused gliders to get sick and die from being in those cages.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 06:32 PM

Remember, Feather, it's not just them.
People purchased the stuff to make their OWN cages, and have been affected. So I suppose 'go after' (not the best choice of words, I know) Home Depot and Lowe's and wherever else? :shrug:

I wonder if there is a way to figure out who the common supplier is that's 'shared' between wherever people have purchased the material, Martin's, and PPP and whatever other companies that MAY also be involved and we just don't know it (yet).
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 07:20 PM

Megs, when that letter went out pocket pets were the only ones that was recalling and replacing cages, as martin was not, they soon then followed suit, and it is still unknown as to whether martins is replacing the cages.


as for the size of wire on the wheels being affected.. the 1/4 inch square pvc/vinyl coated wire has not reported any affects.. the wire we use for the cruiser is manufactured by a completely different manufacture
Posted By: Midien

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 08:43 PM

Haha! I CAN contribute something useful after all laugh

This is a quote from the email I got from Martin's. This is really the meat of it, but if anyone would like to see the rest, PM me. smile

"I have reports pulled for all sugar glider cages sold going back since the end of last year. If it’s found that the cage wire is the problem we will immediately place a recall on the cages. We’ll either have a safe replacement or we will be issuing refunds."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/24/11 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Megs, when that letter went out pocket pets were the only ones that was recalling and replacing cages, as martin was not, they soon then followed suit, and it is still unknown as to whether martins is replacing the cages.



Oh ok.. I was under the impression that this letter was just recently, within the last 2-3 days, sent out.
Posted By: Feather

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/25/11 01:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Megs
Remember, Feather, it's not just them.
People purchased the stuff to make their OWN cages, and have been affected. So I suppose 'go after' (not the best choice of words, I know) Home Depot and Lowe's and wherever else? :shrug:

I wonder if there is a way to figure out who the common supplier is that's 'shared' between wherever people have purchased the material, Martin's, and PPP and whatever other companies that MAY also be involved and we just don't know it (yet).


Yes, there are ways to find out who the common supplier was or is. It will take the manufacturer of the cages and the wholesalers cooperation in getting to the bottom of this problem.

My statement was made that if people are going to hold Pocket Pets responsible for their vet bills and the replacement of pets that have perished from this then Martin's Cages should also be held responsible if the cage was purchased from them.

If I had gliders in one of these cages or in my case I got wire from Klubertanz and made my own, and it got sick and we could relate it to the wire the cage was made out of you better believe I would be driving the 15 miles east and beating on the door at Klubertanz for answers.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/25/11 01:29 AM

Oh heck yeah. I would be as well! You could bet your bottom dollar!
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/27/11 03:38 AM

I found out today while speaking with a manager at Klubertanz that there are only 2 manufacturers of this wire in the US, Shepperd and Riverdale. I was also told that there is wire being shipped in from overseas (Klubertanz does not sell this) from China and Italy.

Now, can someone please clarify if the affected wire is reportedly from Shepperd or Riverdale?


It would seem that at this point, basing my opinion on PPP stating that they have concluded its a specific size cage from a specific supplier that was affected, that this information can be made public as well? There is a lot of supposition being made without the specific manufacturer being named. (At least not that I have read.)
Posted By: SGQ

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/27/11 03:53 AM

Shelly~ in another thread Dancing/Teresa threw out there a name of a company~ but it wasn't for certain. Peggy got on someone for naming that same company on LGG and asked where they heard that company because everyone has been careful not to name the company..

I personally agree with what she/Teresa said.. but only one of the companies names their distributors on their site and the 2 distributors I found that were noteworthy were klubertanz and martins (but I have no clue how to trace PP). Its possible .. just possible they all have the same suppliers in common~ as in more than one supplier the way PP had a backup~ therefore the conclusion being wrong..

I'm wondering if there is a legal issue (as I stated in response to Teresa) as to why the company hasn't been named to the public.

I know you have good reason to ask~ so maybe directly asking Peggy would get you the answer?
Posted By: valerie

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/27/11 11:34 PM

i keep wishing i had checked here more the past few weeks then i would have known about the cages.....i was so happy to find a good cage at a good price....the wire came from the same place that martins cages gets the wire.....this afternoon my female het leu adrian started have seziures and after five mins she was dead....she died in my husbands hands while i was at work.....freaked i called tyler to ask him if i did something wrong and see if he knew anything....he told me about the cages... i saw a few nibbles on the cage and seeing as how my male is fine im sure it was adrian that nibbled the cage...i did not even get the chance to take her to the vet...on min she was fine the next dead....i have taken my male rocky out of the cage and will never use a cage from that place again.....im so sad
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 04:04 AM

as much as we all would love to divulge the information regarding the manufacturer.. PLEASE understand that this wire could have been hidden from the last year bad wire and hidden till it was released.. what the fear is, the main fear is that when they find out exactly what the problem is, when they go after the manufacturer that there will be no wire found to PROVE it beyond a shadow of a doubt, they will need to find that wire in the facility..

now if it gets out then they again may hide the wire.. which means it will show up again.. in the future.. whose gliders will be affected then, how many more must die while they again walk?
Posted By: valerie

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 05:47 AM

from now on im telling everyone i know to never use this stuff again...this is crazy
Posted By: sphynxie

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 02:13 PM

I find it hard to believe that the wire manufacturer does not already know that something is up. At this point I just cannot see *them* being in the dark still, this is being talked about, someone always knows someone else. PPP is in the press now saying they are replacing cages. I think it is good to not say who it is, but the reason that they may hide things is moot, my guess is they already have hid things if they had something to hide. If you sell a bunch of wire on a large scale to PPP you know it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 03:35 PM

I just got my replacement cage from PPP and I must say that there a huge difference in odor from the old one and the new one. Let me clarify, the old one has been washed several times while cocoa was alive and washed again after she passed. I did not notice it before as I did not have a comparison and thought it was normal. But now that I have the new one, there is a very distinct chemical smell to the old one. I have removed it from my home and have it sitting outside on the patio where I am now. If the wind catches the right way I can still smell it sitting 25 feet away from me.
Now if only I had another animal to put in the new one. Adam and I have spoke on the phone and he is willing to replace cocoa although he does not know when. He asked me to email him in 2-3 weeks to REMIND him that I need one. BULL!! And I would really like to have them pay my vet bills from this, it just is not fair!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 06:02 PM

I lost my little girl (who i had purchased from pocket pets) just a couple weeks ago and they have offered me a new baby as well as a new cage. Since her death I have done an extensive amount of research and would really prefer to have a pair. I know pocket pets is not to blame in this situation but given the negative comments posted by many members throughout glider central I'm hesitant to purchase another Joey from them... Would it be better to just purchase through PP and avoid the process of integrating a completely new Joey or should I look elsewhere?
Posted By: valerie

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 06:17 PM

my other male that was in that cage was shaking last night...kinda like he was shivering....but he ate alot of watermelon and is still alive and doing much better this morning....he looks so sad...he watched his friend die...my husband sad rocky was just looking at her and he did not know what to do...poor rocky...he is looking and calling for her in his new cage....im happy that other people are getting new cages and new animals to love but since i got my cage from another co this will not be happening for me....i spent 140 on the cage and the 500 on the sugar glider that i lost...i did not even get a chance to take her to the vet... i was going to take rocky to the vet last night but then he started eating the heck out of the water melon and looked alot better so i think he just need to flush his system...we should do some kind of class action law suit or something
Posted By: Gizmogirl

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/28/11 06:23 PM

I would rather take him to the vet just to be on the safe side. Better safe than sorry. Make sure he gets lots of fluids ( water) I'm sorry you lost the little girl. frown
Posted By: Rocky_D

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/29/11 10:39 PM

I need to add to this thread. We lost Taz on March 25th, 3 weeks after putting him and Rocky together in our Martins 'Pampered Sugar Glider Cage-PVC Coated'. We received this cage on Feb 24, 2011. Rocky survived and our vet told us of Glider deaths in Florida that were not explained. All of this happened before any of the information on the cages was made known to us. We placed Rocky in an old bird cage we got when we got him while we gave him prescribed medication. After he became better we returned him to his Martins cage where he stayed until Friday. We received a new glider to replace Taz and I decided to get another cage like the first for him to stay in until we put them together. My intent was to connect both cages as one to give them an even larger home. I went to order the new cage and saw they were listed as 'out of stock'. I inquired as to when they would be back in stock and got an email Friday stating that Gliders had become ill in the cages and they were removed from stock until all testing was complete. Imagine how we felt now knowing that we had left Rocky in such an unhealthy enviroment for months. I was sure Rocky had begun to shake again and thought it was due to chewing on the cage again because of the new Glider. Had we not inquired about another cage we may have sentenced Rocky and his new mate, Oscar, to their death. We feel we should have been notified that we may have a tainted cage.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 12:10 AM

I am sorry about your baby and I agree the other companies affected by this cage wire issue NEED to step up and contact their customers out of simple decency and they may save some lives along with any retain some of their customers' trust.

Did Martin's have any reason why they had not contacted their customers and warned them of possible health risks?


Unfortunately not all glider owners are on these boards and there is no way for us to warn the people who are not.

I have a feeling we are only seeing a drop in the bucket here compared to the numbers actually affected.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 02:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
I am sorry about your baby and I agree the other companies affected by this cage wire issue NEED to step up and contact their customers out of simple decency and they may save some lives along with any retain some of their customers' trust.


If nobody is willing to name the manufacturer and/or contact the distributors, how are they to ever do anything or issue any recalls? I called my distributor and they said that they had heard this from one other person. So unless they lied to me, they really don't know anything about this situation. One or two people mentioning it isn't enough. I am an extremely small client of theirs, when I speak, they don't really listen. One or two inquiries with half information doesn't hold much weight. However, when a lot of people speak, well, then they have to take notice.

It seems that fear of what "might" happen is preventing the things that in my opinion NEED to happen.

I do fully understand that testing has not been completed to determine for a fact that the cage wire is the cause of the medical conditions and deaths of these gliders. And maybe that is why no one is saying anything, but I would think the distributors/manufactures would like to know that their product has a potential problem. If they aren't notified, they will continue to sell the stock, and we will continue to see gliders gravely effected. Especially those that are not involved with the online glider community ~ it's a much bigger picture than just "us".

Does anyone know what tests are being run? Being in the profession that I am in, I have analytical testing run all the time. The time frame of these results are a bit odd, but that could all depend on the analytes being tested for. Some take quite a while and others are fairly quick. Or, is it that the results are in, but the findings and conclusions have not been determined yet?
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 02:24 AM

I'm sorry to say this but even if they get the "issue resolved" I will not recommend Martin's to anyone again. They should have stepped up and done the notifications. Really, that is just good business. Even if they were not willing to refund or replace the cages, at least let people know to get their gliders out until the final determination (whether they are safe cages or not) comes in.

These are deaths that don't need to happen.

I also think it is just nuts (not my first choice for words) that at this point, it is being kept as hush hush as it still is.

At least with the galvanized wire, possible uti's can be treated and the risk is known.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 02:24 AM

I just spoke this evening with a woman who lives nearby. Approximately one month ago, she purchased a glider from PPP. A couple of weeks ago, her glider began having tremors, she wouldn't eat and had become lethargic and dehydrated. Her vet thought it was a calcium deficiency, as we have seen in the past. She knew nothing about the cage issues going on.

I know that Martin's has records of each cage purchased. What about PPP? Can they begin making contact with people within the time frame we're looking at?
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 02:46 AM

Aimee to my knowledge Pocket Pets has sent emails to all their customers that they have contact info for. They started this by the day I posted the original info regarding the recall here on GC.
I am certain Peggy is in bed by now but I will ask her first thing tommorow to address this.

I do know that most PP customers I have heard from did receive the email although some weren't real happy with things happening, they were made aware and offered replacement cages and in some cases even gliders as sad as it is.
Posted By: Rocky_D

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 03:25 AM

Without knowing that we lost Taz, the email from Martins said to remove the gliders from the cage if they become ill. We have not returned an email to them yet, we are really upset with the situation and the chance we unknowingly took when we put Rocky back in the Martins cage.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 08:54 AM

OK, so then Martin's is starting to send out a warning to their customers. That is wonderful news.
I know it's still very frustrating for all the owners with sick babies and those who have lost their babies but that makes 2 companies getting the word out so maybe soon we will get all the problem cages out of use.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
Aimee to my knowledge Pocket Pets has sent emails to all their customers that they have contact info for. They started this by the day I posted the original info regarding the recall here on GC.
I am certain Peggy is in bed by now but I will ask her first thing tommorow to address this.

I do know that most PP customers I have heard from did receive the email although some weren't real happy with things happening, they were made aware and offered replacement cages and in some cases even gliders as sad as it is.


Thanks, Jennifer...I know that PPP keeps those records so I was hoping this was the case instead of them just waiting for people to make contact with them to let them know their gliders were sick or gone. frown Now, if we could get Martin's to be this proactive - I'll be a happy camper.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Rocky_D
Without knowing that we lost Taz, the email from Martins said to remove the gliders from the cage if they become ill. We have not returned an email to them yet, we are really upset with the situation and the chance we unknowingly took when we put Rocky back in the Martins cage.
Originally Posted By: Trigger
OK, so then Martin's is starting to send out a warning to their customers. That is wonderful news.
I know it's still very frustrating for all the owners with sick babies and those who have lost their babies but that makes 2 companies getting the word out so maybe soon we will get all the problem cages out of use.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Martin's is proactively sending out emails to everyone. I know that Diana will turn around and return an email and yes, they are telling people in those emails, to take gliders out of the cages...but I don't think they've actually sent anything out on their own dunno
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 01:48 PM

Quote:
Does anyone know what tests are being run? Being in the profession that I am in, I have analytical testing run all the time. The time frame of these results are a bit odd, but that could all depend on the analytes being tested for. Some take quite a while and others are fairly quick. Or, is it that the results are in, but the findings and conclusions have not been determined yet?


There are a slew of tests being done right now. For the most part, the things that they are testing for is not coming back with any answers. It could *possibly* be a spray that is used on the wire, be it organic or chemical, however, unless you know the exact thing you are testing for you may never find it. They are running through every possible thing that comes to mind. Every time I see someone post a new *thought* believe me, it gets sent over and if it IS truly a thing that needs to be looked at and tested for, it is. But folks need to remember, we may never know what it is.

Quote:
At least with the galvanized wire, possible uti's can be treated and the risk is known.


Teresa, ANYTHING including the pvc coated, powder coated, epoxy coated cages or even your play tent can cause a glider to get a UTI. That is not the fear with galvanized. Zinc toxicity is the fear with that. As gliders will chew or bite the cages (they do have scent glands in their mouths as well) and if any amount of zinc in ingested, you will have a huge, possible fatal, bad outcome.

Quote:
I just spoke this evening with a woman who lives nearby. Approximately one month ago, she purchased a glider from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. A couple of weeks ago, her glider began having tremors, she wouldn't eat and had become lethargic and dehydrated. Her vet thought it was a calcium deficiency, as we have seen in the past. She knew nothing about the cage issues going on.


Aimee, please tell this person to send or call PPP. Letters were indeed sent out to all their customers that they have on file that has a high chance of being affected by this. There are some that have not gotten emails do to a glitch in their email program. But if she contacts them, they will deal with it. If she has an issue getting them to respond, let me know.

As for Martins Cages.... Well, lets just say I am beyond disappointed. There are a few folks here in this post that know that I talked to Diana personally from Martins last week. For a while they thought it was limited to just the *majestic cages* and they had only sold 19 of those since January. When I told her it was not just the Majestic cages and asked for the amount of cages in total they sold for sugar gliders the amount was 70!! That is a lot of gliders in Martins cages that have NOT been notified.

Diana and I talked for quite some time. By the end of the conversation she had told me that she would send me over a write up stating that yes they would replace or refund all of the cages that were affected ONCE they knew they were dealing with safe wire again. Made sense that she would not want to send out bad wire to replace bad wire. She also stated they may do away with the PVC coated wire altogether and just go with a powder coated wire. Bottom line is I NEVER received that email she promised me.

As they have it written right now, I have to say is a very smart business move. They are saying to folks that IF the wire is tested and it comes back proving that the wire was indeed the cause of problems they will issue a refund or replace the cage. They KNOW that the chance of that *proof* may never be discovered. And what really throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing, is we did find out that Martins and PPP do use two DIFFERENT cage manufacturing plants. However, both are in the same state as each other.

Also, as to date, Martins has NOT come forward with the group that is currently working on this and offered to help with the cost of testing on the wire. So now that we know that Martins does not even get their wire from the same place, testing had to start up on that wire as well. And I would just like to say that testing HAS started on that wire (and yes, it is PPP funding that testing) because the cause is wanting to be found on what is doing this and to try to prevent it from happening again. I have to say I do understand that Martins is just a Mom and Pop shop and they probably cant afford as much as PPP, however, they can at least be more proactive in my eyes.

It angers me when someone promises me something and doesnt follow through. The couple people I talked to right after I talked to Diana can tell you, I was very happy in thinking that Martins WAS going to do the right thing, just to find out differently.

She tried to tell me that they had just heard about the first case of it a couple weeks ago....I said no, I would disagree with you there, as I and Dr.Tristan were helping the first person affected in Feb and that person called you. She then named that first person by her FIRST name and said ******?? I said yes.... and she said they got the wire sample from her and they did refund her money because the cage wire DID smell really bad.... and that was the end of the issue for them until recently.... WHY did they not contact the manufacturing plant and say hey, why does this wire smell like this???

Anyway, fingers can be pointed all day long but it isnt going to change the way things are right now as far as testing is going. So, as I find things out, I am trying to get the word out there (Trigger, thanks for helping me do that). Right now, I hate to say, we are pretty much waiting for even more tests to go on...

Until it is found out, IF it is found out, I am just recommending everyone to get Powder Coated or Epoxy Coated cages and to leave the PVC coating alone.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 02:24 PM

Quote:
as to date, Martins has NOT come forward with the group that is currently working on this and offered to help with the cost of testing on the wire.


Again, I feel this is why the MANUFACTURERS should be notified. It's not Martins responsibility to conduct these tests, nor pay for them. I know its not PPPs responsibility either, but thankfully they are doing something!

How contact is made to their clients is another issue. Customer service is vital to every business. But, lets look at this from their perspective. If a laboratory cannot find anything wrong with this wire with testing that has been done to date, why would Martin's contact all of their customers and warn them? There's no proof yet. Just a thought.

It has now been stated that PPP and Martins purchased their wire from 2 different manufacturers. If there are only two, then all the wire is affected?
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
I just spoke this evening with a woman who lives nearby. Approximately one month ago, she purchased a glider from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. A couple of weeks ago, her glider began having tremors, she wouldn't eat and had become lethargic and dehydrated. Her vet thought it was a calcium deficiency, as we have seen in the past. She knew nothing about the cage issues going on.


Aimee, please tell this person to send or call PPP. Letters were indeed sent out to all their customers that they have on file that has a high chance of being affected by this. There are some that have not gotten emails do to a glitch in their email program. But if she contacts them, they will deal with it. If she has an issue getting them to respond, let me know.


I did tell her to call PPP, Peggy...and she was going to do so immediately. I also spoke with her at length about getting her remaining glider OUT of that cage, along with alternatives. I offered to help in that respect in any way I could. I really do believe she'll do something as quickly as possible as it was apparent she cares very much for her little boy and is distraught at watching her other glider suffer and eventually die. frown
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 03:25 PM

Peggy, I am aware of the issues with zink. I was just trying to make a point. Sorry you missed it. (I do not have my gliders in galvanized cages nor do I intend to put them in one). It is called irony.

I do want to say again, I'm surprised but I am impressed (for once) with PP and all they are doing to help figure out this wire mess and the steps they are taking to try to make things right for the gliders and owners effected by this.

Another question.

Has Custom Cage Works/Steve Larkin (Tropical Attitude Pets or whatever they are calling themselves now) aware of this and are they taking any steps forward with this? They use the same type of cages and sell a very large number of gliders at home shows too. Lots of people from them never make it on the boards either.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 04:00 PM

Quote:
It has now been stated that (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and Martins purchased their wire from 2 different manufacturers. If there are only two, then all the wire is affected?


This now makes three manufacturing companies being used Shelley. Nobody in this situation was even aware of the company that Martins uses.

Quote:
But, lets look at this from their perspective. If a laboratory cannot find anything wrong with this wire with testing that has been done to date, why would Martin's contact all of their customers and warn them? There's no proof yet. Just a thought.


The same reason PPP did. To NOT take the chance that it COULD be the cages since that is the ONLY commonality so far associated with all the gliders that have been affected. Better to be safe than sorry in this instance, especially since MANY glider owners had either purchased a cage from Martins or ordered wire through them and built their own.

Aimee, let me know if there is anything I can do to help. You know I am just a phone call away.

Quote:
Has Custom Cage Works/Steve Larkin (Tropical Attitude Pets or whatever they are calling themselves now) aware of this and are they taking any steps forward with this? They use the same type of cages and sell a very large number of gliders at home shows too. Lots of people from them never make it on the boards either.


Teresa, as to date there have been no reported cases from customers of theirs. We do believe it has something to do with the area that the wire was purchased from. It definitely seems to be a thing located at the NorthEast region, with a handful in other areas. Those not along the NorthEast area are those who purchased cages/wire from Martins. At *this time* there is no reason to believe that the above are included in this. Lets pray that it stays that way and doesnt become a larger mess.

I can not answer one way or the other if they have been contacted about it though.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Aimee, let me know if there is anything I can do to help. You know I am just a phone call away.


I do know. smile Absolutely...I'll let you know.

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
It has now been stated that (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and Martins purchased their wire from 2 different manufacturers. If there are only two, then all the wire is affected?


This now makes three manufacturing companies being used Shelley. Nobody in this situation was even aware of the company that Martins uses.

Quote:
But, lets look at this from their perspective. If a laboratory cannot find anything wrong with this wire with testing that has been done to date, why would Martin's contact all of their customers and warn them? There's no proof yet. Just a thought.


The same reason PPP did. To NOT take the chance that it COULD be the cages since that is the ONLY commonality so far associated with all the gliders that have been affected. Better to be safe than sorry in this instance, especially since MANY glider owners had either purchased a cage from Martins or ordered wire through them and built their own.

Aimee, let me know if there is anything I can do to help. You know I am just a phone call away.

Quote:
Has Custom Cage Works/Steve Larkin (Tropical Attitude Pets or whatever they are calling themselves now) aware of this and are they taking any steps forward with this? They use the same type of cages and sell a very large number of gliders at home shows too. Lots of people from them never make it on the boards either.


Teresa, as to date there have been no reported cases from customers of theirs.


I will say that Tropical Attitude was NOT at the Pet Expo this year, as they normally are, which means that at least in our little neck of the woods, they wouldn't have sold any of the bad cages. dunno
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 04:07 PM

With Steve Larkin selling in the KC area, I get calls from his "victims" often and I just hope that the cages don't become yet another problem for the gliders he is selling.
Posted By: Rocky_D

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 05:34 PM

Mine was not a 'proactive' email but, a response to my 'out of stock' inquiry.

Originally Posted By: DCMuffin
Originally Posted By: Rocky_D
Without knowing that we lost Taz, the email from Martins said to remove the gliders from the cage if they become ill. We have not returned an email to them yet, we are really upset with the situation and the chance we unknowingly took when we put Rocky back in the Martins cage.
Originally Posted By: Trigger
OK, so then Martin's is starting to send out a warning to their customers. That is wonderful news.
I know it's still very frustrating for all the owners with sick babies and those who have lost their babies but that makes 2 companies getting the word out so maybe soon we will get all the problem cages out of use.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Martin's is proactively sending out emails to everyone. I know that Diana will turn around and return an email and yes, they are telling people in those emails, to take gliders out of the cages...but I don't think they've actually sent anything out on their own dunno
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 05:52 PM

Well that really stinks, I wish they would try to at least let their customers know of a possible problem because I know they have got to have many that are not on the boards and aren't going to find out.

Babies lives will be lost when a simple email could get them help in time.
I am going to leave my opinion there because if I said what I really think about it I would certainly get a "vacation"
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
If nobody is willing to name the manufacturer and/or contact the distributors, how are they to ever do anything or issue any recalls?


Originally Posted By: Dancing
I also think it is just nuts (not my first choice for words) that at this point, it is being kept as hush hush as it still is.


How many gliders are going to die before we are allowed to go to the manufacturer?
Posted By: valerie

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/30/11 06:10 PM

i think we need solid proof before we can go to them so there is less chance of a cover up....that being said i am one of the people who lost a glider and i sure hope we can get he proof and nail them
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 01:24 AM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
If nobody is willing to name the manufacturer and/or contact the distributors, how are they to ever do anything or issue any recalls?


Originally Posted By: Dancing
I also think it is just nuts (not my first choice for words) that at this point, it is being kept as hush hush as it still is.


How many gliders are going to die before we are allowed to go to the manufacturer?



Originally Posted By: valerie
i think we need solid proof before we can go to them so there is less chance of a cover up....that being said i am one of the people who lost a glider and i sure hope we can get he proof and nail them


And continue letting gliders get sick and die in the meantime??

If they want to cover anything up, they will regardless. Not telling them is allowing the alleged bad material to continue going into the market. Nothing we do is going to stop a potential cover-up. Not every company is dishonest, they may be just as appalled as we are that their product may be causing these issues and destroy what is left in stock, if any. So, might as well contact them so the bad stuff stops being sold now. As of right now, I can still go to my supplier and order the wire! And...I don't even know if they have the "good or bad" stuff.

So, what good are we doing the gliders by sitting by and not saying anything to them? shakehead
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 01:36 AM

You know, just because WE dont know who the manufacturing companies are and just because WE were asked not to go to them and start in on them, because lets face it that is what this community does when names and contacts are posted, does not mean the Manufacturing Companies in *question* have not been contacted by those who are in charge of the testing.

WE were asked not to go running to them and screaming at them without proof.... that is all.... it wasnt said they were not going to be contacted at all, so isnt all of that just speculation on our part?

We, as a whole, have to remember, just because *we* dont know *every detail* to things that take place, doesnt mean it is being done wrong.

Lets just leave it to those who are doing it and we will act on things as we get information accordingly.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 01:58 AM

Speculation like that wouldn't occur if WE had been notified that those conducting the tests were/are in contact with the manufacturers in question. If that was ever said, then I'll apologize now, but I didn't see it.

You are right, they don't need all of us contacting them at all. That wouldn't do any good either, and not what I meant about them being notified.

All I've seen is speculation that its the wire and no one wants to mention or say anything to the MFG due to fear of a cover up and the wire being re-introduced into the market in the future.

Are those that are in charge of the testing in contact with the manufacturers?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 04:18 AM

What really ticks me off about all this is that some of these companies knew that something was up much earlier then they starting releasing emails to get your gliders out.
I personally emailed and spoke with Adam Wayne from PP weeks prior to Cocoa's passing, trying to see if they could help me. I told him my vet said she was going to die and wanted to put her down (which I refused).
He asked me to keep him up to date on things and I did. On may 14th she passed and not even a whole week later I got the crushing email about the wide spread illnesses and cage recall, from him! Stating to remove my glider right away and she would get better.
I understand that was a genaric email sent to many customers and generalized it.
But my point is this, I know [censored] well he could have told me to take her out sooner but he didn't. Just because he didn't want to let he cat out of the bag too soon.
She could have survived this, but instead she suffered and died.
Don't get me wrong, I am thankful they are stepping up to the plate. I have a new cage already and have been promised a new glider asap, along with a $50 credit at their online store (an attempt to compensate for vet bills). But I LOVE and miss Cocoa. I am afraid this new glider will not have as great of a personality and temperament.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 04:50 AM

Ok, here's a thought...

Why are we leaving it up to PP and Martins to make the decisions about going to the manufacture? I'm betting some basic research would lead to the companies making this wire. Things like this are not impossible to find out. Might take a bit of time however, not impossible.

We haven't even heard here on GC from PP or Martin's other than through their mouth peices, Bourbon and Peggy. I can easily decide not to go through with the purchase I wanted to make...it isn't an urgent need for me and I've been blessed to not have any of my gliders get ill. But I am not comfortable with the way things have and are progressing. And I'm surprised that those most often posting in this thread are comfortable with PP and Martins making the decisions about all this.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 07:11 AM

If the company also supplies to Klubertanz, then the company in question is either Riverdale or Sheppard.

Riverdale Mills Corporation
Tel: 800.762.6374 • Outside USA 508.234.8400 • Fax: 508.234.9593
130 Riverdale Street • P.O. Box 200 • Northbridge, MA 01534
http://www.riverdale.com/

C. E. Shepherd Company
2221 Canada Dry St. Houston, Texas 77023, U.S.A.
Office / Sales: (713) 924-4300 — Fax: (713) 928-2324
http://www.ceshepherd.com
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 11:41 AM

T....I know it's written in here somewhere, but Martin's used another manufacturer, different from the two you mentioned above...which kind of threw a wrench into things. They have apparently not received wire from Riverdale since 2009 and have been using another company instead. That's from my conversation with Diana. Beyond that, they aren't saying much dunno
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 12:03 PM

Quote:
Why are we leaving it up to PP and Martins to make the decisions about going to the manufacture? I'm betting some basic research would lead to the companies making this wire.


First of all, it is NOT PPP and Martins *making decisions*, there are SO MANY folks involved in this and honestly, the ONLY thing PPP has to do with this is he is shelling out the money for the testing.

Quote:
We haven't even heard here on GC from PP or Martin's other than through their mouth peices, Bourbon and Peggy.


Secondly, NO I am NOT being a *mouthpiece* for PPP or Martins I am trying to help the COMMUNITY by getting information out to the ONES AFFECTED by this tragedy.

And last but very much NOT least....

RememberingCocoa, I am so sorry for your loss, but honestly the cause of what was going on wasnt pegged down to the high possibility of the cages at the time you talked with Adam.
Posted By: angelic4296

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 02:08 PM

Wow, I was half an inch away from ordering 16 and 14 gauge wire to build one of Nancy's cages with from Riverdale (I love Nancy's cages and when this is all sorted out, plan to make one still, who knows if I'll use Riverdale or not). Thank you HollyAnger for bringing this information forward, it is MUCH appreciated that it is FINALLY out there....

My prayers continue to be with everyone who was affected....
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 04:43 PM

Quote:
I heard from PP on Saturday morning. The name of the company responsible for the wire is called Riverdale.


Riverdale is not the only company with this wire issue and it has not been *proven* as of to date.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 05:02 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Are those that are in charge of the testing in contact with the manufacturers?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 06:21 PM

Holly - for "encouraging news" please take comfort in the fact that gliders begin to improve once they are removed from the affected cages. I pray that you got her out in time. Unfortunately only time will tell. I know that she has already begun to improve.

Originally Posted By: Srlb

WE were asked not to go running to them and screaming at them without proof.... that is all.... it wasnt said they were not going to be contacted at all, so isnt all of that just speculation on our part?


Asked by whom? By PPP? The SAME PPP that asked a New England vet to "keep it quiet so as not to start a panic" when sugar gliders were dying, and they KNEW it was the cage? I'm not sure how many other vets were "asked" to "keep it quiet." PPP seems to be pretty keen on "keeping things quiet" except for messages they want to relay through Peggy.
Posted By: BCChins

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: HollyAnger
My Penelope has been on b12 injections and fluids for for days now. The seizures have stopped but she is very lethargic. Second vet visit tonight. Is this familiar to anyone else that has a survivor? I just want to hear some encouraging newsfrom anyone else. A "replacement"like I was offered is not what I want.


You have a private message flashing envelope at the top of the page.
Posted By: Feather

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 05/31/11 09:45 PM

I hope this post does not get lost in this thread.

Martin's uses coated wire for other cages that they make, I for one can't believe that other pet owners, such as rats, rabbits, chinchillas...... have not experience the same symptoms that we are seeing in sugar gliders.

If this wire was contaminated by a pesticide, herbicide, chemical fertilizer or other chemical I for one would think that it would also produce neurological issues in other small animals.

Maybe at this time those pet owners haven't put two and two together or maybe they do not have the family network like we sugar gliders slaves have.

JMO
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 02:39 AM

I've had the same thoughts, Kim...and wonder how many people out there just don't know what's going on. frown
Posted By: Rocky_D

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 03:13 AM

We thoroughly washed our Martins cage with high pressure and hot water at the carwash. We doubt anything could have been left on the wire and believe it must be in the coating and they chewed the wire. We saw no issues until we placed Taz in with Rocky. Rocky spent 1 week in the cage before Taz went in and Taz started having tremors 3 weeks later. Taz died and Rocky was removed after his trip to the vet so we could better keep an eye on him. Rocky never had tremors as bad as Taz.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Feather
I hope this post does not get lost in this thread.

Martin's uses coated wire for other cages that they make, I for one can't believe that other pet owners, such as rats, rabbits, chinchillas...... have not experience the same symptoms that we are seeing in sugar gliders.

If this wire was contaminated by a pesticide, herbicide, chemical fertilizer or other chemical I for one would think that it would also produce neurological issues in other small animals.

Maybe at this time those pet owners haven't put two and two together or maybe they do not have the family network like we sugar gliders slaves have.

JMO


When I spoke with Klubertanz, they said they had not received any complaints regarding any other species. dunno
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 03:19 AM

I wouldn't think they would receive complaints regarding any other species.

It is only because of the community here that it was realized how wide-spread this is, and that it is as big as it is.

Even still, vets are treating the gliders as if it is HLP if they don't know. So - unless one vet starts seeing a LOT of another species dying, and starts making the connections - who is going to speak out and say it is wide-spread?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 03:29 AM

Ugh this is just aweful, I'm terrified to buy a cage from anybody right now cuz I don't wanna touch anything on the market until thisis resolved. I just hope they figure this out soon so the gliders get better!
Posted By: Feather

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 03:51 AM

Last Friday I stopped in at the UW Veterinary Teaching Hospital here in Wisconsin to see if they had any gliders come in with neurological issues.

The vet tech remembered one that was possibly neurological that came in about 3 weeks ago. I gave her the information on the cages, told them to get in touch with me if they had anymore come in.

P.S. Gizmo also graciously modeled Denise's ejacket and the vet tech wants to get some for the college, Anne was very impressed with them.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 06:18 AM

Peggy, I am not good with site yet and may have not correctly copied your quote, please forgive me if this sloppy or incorectly done.


And last but very much NOT least....

RememberingCocoa, I am so sorry for your loss, but honestly the cause of what was going on wasnt pegged down to the high possibility of the cages at the time you talked with Adam.
[/quote]

I do appreciate your sincerity and thank you. Although I still, without a doubt, feel that there was good knowledge of the situation at hand while speaking with Adam. Please don't get me wrong here, I respect this man very much and think he does have genuine concern for these animals. And for that I thank him. He has put himself out there and as I believe done most of what he could to help, including calling me to address my concerns, on his wedding day.
But here is why I feel there was some knowing~
while speaking to him just after her death, when I informed him that my vet believed she had cerebellum degenerative, I did not once mention any details or what was told me to have caused it (such as toxins).
I understand that he may be knowledgeable in that, but what he said to me is where I begin to doubt.
When I asked about possibly getting a replacement, he said that he was working on something right now and didn't want to make any promises and place another animal where there may be more toxins to harm the next.
Not only that, but when I emailed him upset about not being informed earlier and having to pay vet bills, he only discussed the bills with me. Not once did he even try to defend himself in my accusations. I fully understand that that is not a plee of guilt, but it still fuels my suspicions.
And lastly, I got the very lengthy and long winded email about the recall just a few short business days later. Come on now are you really telling me that there was not yet a hint, a tell tale, suspicion, or etc. to say that the cages, or heck something in the general area of the cage ( such as the accessories sold in the starter kit), could be causing this??? Even in the email he sent out it says they had been doing extensive testing over some time now, doing this and that to pin point it. Meanwhile, they know somthing is wrong in the general vicinity of the products they provided, why not warn us sooner?? Please tell me if am I being anal about this, but I really think I have a point.
Look at how many have DIED and SUFFERED. Please don't get me wrong, I can see that the manufacturer should be taking responsibility, but isn't it the person with the findings responsibility to inform at the best interest of the animal and not the company??
I don't know about you, but Cocoa was a family member in my home. I watched her go back and forth from the brink of death and hand fed her every few hours. If that were you unable to control your body, shaking, swaying and flopping around and simple knowledge of what was already suspected kept you from recovery, wouldn't that just suck?
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 11:55 AM

Nope RememberingCocoa, I would have had the same thoughts and feelings as you.

And that is what happens when someone *assumes* that you spoke to him sooner than what you did. (which is what I did)

Again, I am sorry for your loss and I do wish it had never of happened, to you or to any of the others dealing with this tragedy. hug2
Posted By: Gizmogirl

Re: Update on Cages and Recall - PART TWO - 06/01/11 01:32 PM

See PART THREE
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