GliderCENTRAL

More Grape Related Deaths

Posted By: Anonymous

More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 12:59 PM

As of yesterday, I'm gutted to have to tell you but grapes have claimed the lives of 2 more animals belonging to some very good friends of mine in the UK. I'm not going to say what kind of animal as they will come forward and announce it themseleves when they feel ready, all I will tell you is it's not suggies, dogs or parrots.

The past reports of dogs and parrots are easy to dismiss as the dogs are in the US and they belong to strangers, I've fed all my animals grapes and there's never been any problems, but now it's too close to home to ignore (or bury your head in the sand!)

IF YOU ARE FEEDING GRAPES, STOP NOW!! It has NOTHING to do with different digestive systems or how they function. I believe it is the insecticide DDT that is STILL used in SOME countries today. The DDT is sprayed whether it's directly on to the crop or not, some residue will settle on to the plant BUT ALSO it is washed INTO the soil and is ABSORBED by the plant and will be passed on to the fruit growing on the plant. So washing the fruit thoroughly WILL NOT wash away the DDT, it's actually IN the fruit.

I would imagine the toxins build up in the system to the point that the kidneys cannot cope with trying to erradicate it, and they fail, which sadly happened to my friends animals.

I know there's going to be people who will say "I'm not going to stop feeding them to my suggies because they love them!" but ask yourself if it's worth it! Your suggies won't love you any less if they don't receive another grape, but how will you feel if the grape you've handed your suggie is laced with a very potent toxin?

I should also say that in the US and in the UK DDT is NOT used, so Californian grapes MAY be ok, but again is it worth the risk? I won't be feeding a single grape to any animal ever again, it makes me wonder whether WE should even be eating them!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T IGNORE THIS!!
Posted By: Gossamer

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 01:23 PM

I don't feed grapes, due to the controversy, however I wonder how it can be 100% certain that it is from grapes, unless grapes are the only food source for the animal.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 01:35 PM

I hate to say, but DDT isn't used on only grapes. We'd have to stop feeding all fruits and veggies imported from other countries if that was the case... JMO
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 02:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Morrighann
I hate to say, but DDT isn't used on only grapes. We'd have to stop feeding all fruits and veggies imported from other countries if that was the case... JMO


DDT is used in hot countries who are at risk from malaria to keep the mosquito populations down. I wonder if grapes absorb more somehow, maybe due to their size and that of the vine? I don't know, all I know is I shall not feed another grape ever!!!

Gossamer, I don't know the full details yet, I just don't have the heart to ask them, they need to grieve. I know the animals were rushed to the vet during Tuesday evening, the vet has told them it was kidney failure due to the grapes in the diet. I don't know anymore than that at this time.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 02:16 PM

FOreget it i will not feed my animals anything. sheesh
Posted By: melek007

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 02:24 PM

Like Gossamer, I don't feed grapes because of the controversy surrounding them. They may or may not be related to deaths of sugar gliders, but I would rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for the post.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 02:33 PM

I think I will go to the local farmers market to buy fruits and veggies during summer/spring/fall. Winter would be a hard time to find fruits and veggies you can trust though.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 02:46 PM

It's just been brought to my attention that according to the ASPCA report that dogs have been affected by home grown grapes as well as commercially grown grapes! It says certain pesticides and heavy metals have been ruled out, but it doesn't say which pesticides! Which to my mind is even worse, becuase that's ANOTHER dead end!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: melek007

I don't feed grapes because of the controversy surrounding them.


As well as I - I am a new SG owner and while Grapes are on my menu they will NOT be on the menu for my precious Sugar Gliders (to much of a risk that I am not willing to take).
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:04 PM

haha Furf, I was going to say the same thing... Nothing seems safe anymore...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:31 PM

Don't want to cause controversy here, but I'm pretty sure that DDT has been banned in most countries since the 80s at least. There's been a whole bunch of problems with that pesticide; i.e. Silent Spring by Rachel Carson, it caused thinning of bird shell eggs and started to add to certain bird species extinctions.... Not saying it's okay to feed grapes if you feel unsafe about them, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:39 PM

Yea, i thought that DDT was banned here in the US as well. I will have to read more into that.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:40 PM

Ok, here we go again. I understand the concerns, honestly I do however...


Speaking for myself, I have had gliders for over 10 years. I have had about 150 gliders come through my home. I have ALWAYS fed grapes.

NO, I do not feed grapes imported into the US but only those grown here (because of the risk of DDT and other garbage some contries use).

Because 2 animals died from grapes, animals that are NOT sugar gliders, in the UK, does not mean that the grapes you buy in the States and feed to gliders is going to kill them.

There are risks in EVERY food we eat. EVERY food we feed our gliders or other animals.

I for one can not base my gliders diet decisions on a second hand report that grapes (or any food) has killed animals (not even gliders) especially without the vet report (necropsy report) that proves that it IS the grapes and not some other part of the diet. If it was DDT, then it really was NOT the grapes but the DDT. Be aware of where your produce comes from. Use standard precautions by washing your produce (regardless where you buy it). And try not to have knee jerk reactions to two animals, not gliders dying from MAYBE grapes.

If we react each time someone has something bad to post about foods, our gliders and ourselves would all just end up starving to death.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:41 PM

Here's DDT on Wikipedia. Lots of info...

There are alternatives to DDT and other insecticides that farmers still use, and definitely not just on grapes. Even people at farmers markets and what not may use insecticides on their crops. Unless they claim to be 100% organic, I'm not sure if you can ever really know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:42 PM

Here is some food for thought to ease those who do like to fee grapes:

"EPA press release - December 31, 1972]
The general use of the pesticide DDT will no longer be legal in the United States after today, ending nearly three decades of application during which time the once-popular chemical was used to control insect pests on crop and forest lands, around homes and gardens, and for industrial and commercial purposes."


You can read all about it here

I remember this happening when i was a kid and DDT was in teh bug sprays for humans.

I agree with dancing
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:51 PM

DDT is still manufactured in the US, and exported to other countries. Countries which we then IMPORT crops from - which have had OUR DDT used on them. It is illegal to use it in the US, however, never underestimate the greed of multi-national corporations.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing

Because 2 animals died from grapes, animals that are NOT sugar gliders, in the UK, does not mean that the grapes you buy in the States and feed to gliders is going to kill them.


As I said in the original post grapes grown in the US MAY be ok, however dogs have reacted to and died from home grown grapes as well as commercial grapes.

However, this is 2 MORE deaths from grapes, as well as god knows how many dogs, and parrots, and it seems it's nothing to do with digestive systems because these animals are in no way related to either dogs or parrots!! An animal that isn't a rat will still die if it consumes rat poison. If a toxin is present it will affect any organism!!

The reason grapes are being blamed is because (Gossamer, I asked!!) the animals in question got into a box of grapes overnight and consumed a large amount of them. The animals were both found that morning limp and lifeless, they were immediately rushed to the vet, one died at 8am that morning the other at 5pm. It's worth bearing in mind that my friends (and myself) were skeptical of the grape issue - hence they were still feeding them without any problem. I really don't think we can dismiss this! I'm not a one for drama (which is why I don't post much on here), but I thought you all should know! I for one won't be feeding grapes again, but dancing - would your attitude have been different if it was a glider?

Posted By: jacknsally

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:57 PM

Alix this article says the early 1960's caused by the book Silent Spring- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT

Quote:
The book resulted in a large public outcry that eventually led to DDT being banned in the US, and its publication was one of the signature events in the birth of the environmental movement. DDT was subsequently banned for agricultural use worldwide, but its use in disease vector control continues to this day in some parts of the world.


As for dogs- the reason why grapes are so deadly is till unknown. It's also stated they must injest a large quanity of grapes- anything above a handful can be deadly.
http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/raisins.asp

As for gliders corn, peas & grapes- Moderation is the key with these foods. Just as precautions are taking with mealies & crickets for aflatoxins but not cut out.

Posted By: GliderLove

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 03:59 PM

I AGREE with Dancing, I feed grapes and always have. I feed my gliders the same fruits and veggies I feed my own human kids. I buy alot of organic locally and in the summer they have things I grow also. Actually alot of organic foods you can get now are really not much more then grocery store prices. I always feed US grown foods too though.

I can see why concerns arise but really, it could be ANY FOOD. I am not trying to cause controversy either, but I don't panic about grapes either.

Just my .02

OK, I do not know what type of pets these where, but I would NOT have felt diffrent if it where a glider, Certain animals react diffrently to diffrent foods, and you don't know what was sprayed on the grapes, ect. But i would not rule them out all together.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: moorie999
The reason grapes are being blamed is because (Gossamer, I asked!!) the animals in question got into a box of grapes overnight and consumed a large amount of them.


That's the key right there- All grape related renal failure have been due to LARGE amount of grapes at one time. Not the occasional treat of 1 or 2. As with gliders- moderation is the key and used occasionally. Any food that is known to be toxic is toxic in large amount of quanities.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Alix this article says the early 1960's caused by the book Silent Spring- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT



yeah I knew Carson wrote the book in the 60s. I used to be a bio major so I took tons of micro/zoo/biology courses. All this stuff is extrememly interesting to me, you just have to make sure don't take just one person's word for something--do lots of research yourself. It's fun! smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 04:15 PM

Yep, whether suggie or grape related or not, just be aware that DDT and all it's awful effects are still swingin' today in modern 2007! (Rachel Carson book is an excellent resource on that for anyone who wasn't required to read it in college...it's fantastic).

Although it isn't allowed to be sprayed on the foods that grow in the US since 1972, it is allowed to be ON the foods SOLD in the US that aren't under strict crop controls at all. As Dancing wisely said, know where your food comes from.

Also, I LOVE Dancing's posts all the time...so this is JUST to help anyone interested in learning more...I'm not advocating a "side" or "no side" or anything, but I do have some thoughts to share about grapes.

It's true as Dancing said that there ARE issues of this nature extended to all the foods (so overwhelming, indeed). However, just for consideration for anyone who is new here or new to the topic of grapes and their controversy, the ASPCA article is what initiated concern for ME personally over this issue. Moorie is citing one single incident (double incident) that hit home to her personal friends, but the ASPCA cites a vet database logging many more of these that *vets* linked with grapes, not Moorie herself. It's not something that Moorie is scaring up on her own based on two animal deaths...it's something she's sharing a personal experience with in much the same way that people share their heartwrenching stories of gliders who pass away from various causes.

It is entirely possible that grapes are NOT at the root of this...but there are many controversial topics in this world that leave us with what if's, and I just like to err on the side of caution with this particular topic. It's not at all that I fear grapes or am paranoid in any way (organic grapes are one of my favorite snacks and I eat them by the handful). It's simply that I'd rather take someone's word for it and be wrong, than to be overlook advice and find out my suggies got hurt from something that *may* have been preventable. My kidney is about a gazillion (official term) sizes larger than my suggies' kidneys, so it's possible that something totally natural within the grape, and not pesticide, is causing dog, or glider, or any animal problems that might not affect humans at all. The ASPCA did not state that pesticides were the root...in fact, the biggest concern is exactly what Dancing alludes to...we really have no solid idea WHAT it is about grapes, IF it is grapes, that might be causing the problem. So it could be anything from a natural ingredient inside them, to an organic pigment found in their skins, to the chemicals farmers use, or NONE of those. Grapes could be entirely safe. Or they could be toxic. We really don't know.

I keep a ladder in my toilet because even though I put my toilet lids down, I know there is a *chance* I could miss that one time, and I'm thankful to all who have shared their stories and tips so that I could be informed with the knowledge to do so. I don't buy fabrics that may or may not catch a glider's fingers, even if someone here says they were fine with that fabric. I don't use leashes even though some people do. Some of these things are considered universally "known" in the glider world. But maybe at one point they were not known, just as proven diets and such had to be developed and learned abou over time, maybe grapes will turn out to be similar. Maybe, maybe not. MAYBE, though.

With grapes, although there remains OPEN QUESTIONING of whether it's the grapes or not that cause this, I just personally feel better not feeding them. They aren't hard for me to remove from their diet, they aren't required specifically in any proven fruit or veggie menu I use, and I just feel good about it. I just buy something else instead of grapes for high water content fruit. Easily, some other fruit or veggie could have the same issue. But since grapes have been specifically pointed out to me, I'm going to remove them.

Also, overall, I am not a vet. I am also not funded with thousands or more dollars to conduct research on grapes, nor am I networked with a database on incidents that link deaths. There may NOT be a causal link between grapes and deaths of dogs after all, but I'm sure going to take the anecdotal observation of the vet database and the ASPCA over my layperson opinion or guess about it. That's ONLY me. I respect Dancing and your right to feed the grapes. I honor that ten years for you have worked out beautifully. But according to the articles, there seems to be no real proven link based on the cause, or amount, of grapes dogs have died from, so I'm not chancing it. One time, with one suggie lost , matters to me. Moorie, I am deeply sorry to learn that your friend's animals died, no matter what caused it. As many vets have pointed this issue out as a topic of concern and worthy of further investigation, I will honor your friends' pets memory by keeping grapes out of my suggie's and own dogs' diets.

Love and Hugs to ALL,
Jen/PocketFaeries
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 04:18 PM

JacknSally, I may have misread or misinterpreted the ASPCA article then, based on what I'm reading in your post. I was under the impression (perhaps the wrong impression) that they were not able to strictly narrow down the amount of grapes it took to cause renal failure? I could swear I read that some animals had a grapes over a period of time while others got into a mess of them at once? Please DO correct me if I am off on this...I really am interested and am always VERY open to learning!!!

Love,
Jen
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 04:42 PM

Pocket- All the resources I'm finding say that it's the Large amount of quanities they are finding fatal. The occasional getting ahold of is not what's causing the Vet Visits.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/grapeandraisin.htm

Everything that I read says from a single serving to large amounts- nothing about the occasional grape here and there.

Quote:
And the ingested amounts varied considerably, from over a pound of grapes to as little as a single serving of raisins. The cases weren't from any specific region, but instead came from across the United States.


A single serving at one time or large quanities is not moderation.


I personally just had a near heart attack with my dog who already is in renal failure. I had a bowl of grapes the other night but didn't finish them off- had 8-10 left and still on the vine. I dozed off and went to bed leaving them there on a coffee table.Iin the morning- there was less a few missing and it's possible my dog ate them. If he did, he's showing no signs of concern. So even in my dogs case- who is already in renal failure, getting ahold of the occasional grape was not deadly to him.

Raisins are worse- 1 raisin is equal to like 4 grapes. Now I've always boycotted giving raisins to my gliders. What I can't figure out is why they can't figure out the root of the cause. Espeically since a raisin is worse. Sounds almost like a natural sugar substance overdose??

Quote:
Why did the fruit cause the dogs to become ill? No one knows. Suspect grapes and raisins have been screened for various pesticides, heavy metals (such as zinc or lead), and mycotoxins (fungal contaminants) and so far, all results have come back negative. In the cases where the grapes were grown in private yards, owners confirmed that no insecticides, fertilizers or antifungals had been used on the fruit.


My quote source- http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_apcc_publicationsgrapes



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: ltlrdangel
I think I will go to the local farmers market to buy fruits and veggies during summer/spring/fall. Winter would be a hard time to find fruits and veggies you can trust though.


off_topic Not all fruits/veggies do well this way, but I like to buy some that are only available during certain times and freeze them for later. Some fruits will come out mushy this way, but others do well. You could pick up some of your favorites at the farmer's market and freeze them to see how they do and the ones that work will be there for you to use later in the year. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 05:01 PM

Thanks, Jacknsally...fabulous! thumb

I interspersed my thoughts with yours below:

Everything that I read says from a single serving to large amounts- nothing about the occasional grape here and there.

Quote:
And the ingested amounts varied considerably, from over a pound of grapes to as little as a single serving of raisins. The cases weren't from any specific region, but instead came from across the United States.


A single serving at one time or large quanities is not moderation.

Indeed...this would be my biggest concern. It's the "varied considerably" that I worry about. Who has measured out the single serving in grape-specific terms for suggies? A suggie holding half a grape is the physical size ratio of me holding a half a cantaloupe in my hands. Since we process things so very differently from species to species, I'm not sure how to interpret this "single serving" to "large quanitity" stuff without having concern that the physical amount/quantity versus the processing of the actual *nutrients* issues are impacting things here. We just eat totally differently from suggies, as do dogs, etc. I'm not very confident with the absence of a solid scientific source to these troubles beyond "grapes." I may just be interpreting the tone of the article differently than you, but my thought is that they can't pinpoint a certain known "safe" limit or amount, so they are advising caution in general. As you outlined with your dog's personal story, it's got to vary from individual animal to animal...so with that in mind, if one dog or suggie could die while the other could be fine with consuming the same amount of grapes in the same short period, I'd worry it's also possible to vary case by case in the long run. For example, I had a kidneystone the size of a large marble years ago. My doctor attributed it to my cosumption of lots of green dark leafy veggies (kale, collard greens, etc.) and lots of sweet tea! smile Yet some people can eat these things all the time and never get one of those blasted things! smile So I am just viewing grapes and suggies with that set of eyes. wink .


Raisins are worse- 1 raisin is equal to like 4 grapes. Now I've always boycotted giving raisins to my gliders. What I can't figure out is why they can't figure out the root of the cause. Espeically since a raisin is worse. Sounds almost like a natural sugar substance abuse?? [/quote]

I wonder something, but it may be nothing. smile Raisins often have preservatives like sulfites and perhaps that could be linked to the higher problem rate with raisins? I DO think you are ON to something with the sugar concentration line of thought. Overall, I just wish we had more solid, scientific information on all of this.


Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 05:37 PM

well lets just all go to whole foods now and get on the whole organic kick.... but then again like someone mentioned earlier how do you know???? :/
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: lanie
well lets just all go to whole foods now and get on the whole organic kick.... but then again like someone mentioned earlier how do you know???? :/


I don't think organic will be any safer. I really think the toxin poisons are caused from the meat (fruit) of the grape. There's something with when too much of it is consumed at one time with animals.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 06:05 PM

I agree...and until we know what it is that causes this, it's honestly no sweat off of my back to just scrap grapes from their diet and give watermelon or another high-water content fruit instead. smile
Posted By: Gossamer

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 06:17 PM

Thank you for the update Moorie. Now it makes sense.

I'm not going to feed something to my gliders that has the potential of causing death - whether it has to be a large quantity or not. If ten grapes cause death - then feeding one is okay? That's not logical to me. It's not heart medicine - there are plenty of other things you can feed your gliders. And as another said - the grape controversy is not new, Moorie didn't make it up.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 06:47 PM

It's the GLOBE grapes in the U.S that shouldn't be fed to gliders.

All fruits and vegetables are sprayed. That's why they look so pretty in the stores and aren't full of worms and bugs. The only way we can prevent feeding something like that to our babies is to grow it ourselves, but then we still have to worry about things like soil contamination, bird, other animal urine and feces, acid rain etc.

There seems to be no way around this. Other than all humans and animals stop eating, then we all die anyway.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 07:44 PM

I started a garden in my back yard and bought a bunch of organic seeds earlier this year... I have to say it's more convenient and alot more fun to just go out to the back yard and pick dinner. Lol. smile
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 08:22 PM

I guess just like the cse with Jorg. it is a matter of find out EXACTLY what the cause is, and addressing those item, Just as Laura knows, the problem in the food could have come from anyWHERE, not the same with animals that are fed varied diets, when it jusps out at you, and lets say you never fed grapes to your gliders, fed them 5, then they die 24 hours later.. you take those grapes down, have them tested (it was a newly introduced food,) then you also must take all the other food down that also was offered, to have it tested as well..

it is very common to blame a newly introduced food, but most often when tested it isn't the new food at all, but something wrong with the standard.

The globe grapes however.. those are the very big ones. have had more of an issue with the gliders than regular grapes, I don't know the specifics, of the globe grapes, but as for regular grapes, gliders dying all the time, just because the common foods are fed, how do we know it was the grapes? could it be aflatoxin? after all there is corn which is a harbor for the fungus, (aspergillus)) and could it be peanuts, could it be the peas? or maybe the apples? maybe it is an ingredient of the food, could it be bacterial? Could it be genetics? Maybe in these cases, maybe the dog food itself. So many possibilities

I have to say with the thousands and thousands of gliders out here, sine the early 90's, eating grapes, the chances of it being "grapes" as a general rule is very slim.. I would be much more interested in what they have found that is dangerous, if it is ddt, then give us info as to where the grapes came from, so we can avoid that, if it is from some other pesticide, then let us know that..

This really is a broad step on a common item. please can you be a tad bit more specific for us?
Posted By: silverwolf

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 08:34 PM

well you know I may be a little old fashioned about all the controversy but for instance we are not to feed chocolate to our animals because it is toxic. But it isnt toxic to us. Therefore I can see where dogs may have a problem with grapes. Mainly because dogs are conivours by nature not herbivours. Therefore alot of fruit and other foods is not good for them. You need to look at the species that are getting into trouble and figure this out if you fed your horse meat for instance they would get sick their body make up is not designed to handle meat. Also I am a little skeptical about the whole organic thing. I think a bunch of farmers are calling their food organic and laughing all the way to the bank. Organic is just a way to get consumers to pay more for the same food. By the way I have seen this so its not just speculation. If people really wanted natural organic foods they would stop processing and homogonizing (like with milk) and drink or eat it raw. The only way I trust it being truely organic is if I grow it myself and dont use fertilizer or pestisides then it organic.
Posted By: melek007

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 08:49 PM

As someone mentioned, the difference in kidney size of a human and glider is quite a stretch. Also, we humans eat chocolate, onion, and garlic but should never give them to our suggies (or many other animals). Personally, I am leaning toward grapes being something for my furry babies to avoid, but won't remove them from my diet.
The DDT factor doesn't bother me; scientist J. Gordon Edwards was a supporter of DDT after it was used to save over 5,000 lives in a 1944 epidemic [in Italy]. Appalled by Rachel Carson's claims, he began consuming DDT (by mouth) in shocking quantities. He died in 2004 at the age of 84 from a heart attack while mountain climbing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 09:20 PM

*Idea* idea

Based on the above post and all the problems will all of our foods, maybe we should all scrap the idea of food as we know it and just feed ourselves and our gliders DDT...LOL! Uuummm...if anyone is considering the potential edible merits of DDT versus grapes, I'd still go with grapes as the lesser of two evils...LOL! laugh

(Melek007..interesting study there, must've been an odd bird to eat DDT to the ripe old age of 84, but I hope it does not offend your sensibilities that I'm sticking with the Rachel Carson camp, personally. Even water can be overdosed on if too much at once...even consumption-based products like alcohol and such cause poisoning over time, and good fer 'ya stuff can cause trouble too, as we've seen with my kidneystones and healthy greens...I'd love to see the study though...that's the nerd in me crying out for more). LOL agree laugh

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 09:53 PM

I do not nor have I ever fed my gliders Red Globe grapes. I have only fed all of my gliders red seedless. However, when I purchase them I bring them home and wash them real good and let them sit in the colander to drain, then put them in a tupperware bowl after I cut them in half.
Posted By: Anmaw

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/24/07 10:34 PM

There have been post in the past about the dangers of feeding grapes. I can't remember all of the details, but if memory serves me right the bad thing about grapes for animals was the peel - something about the tannins in it. That might account for why a raisen (dried grape) is more harmful because after it is dried it is basically nothing but dried grape peel with very little left inside and the peel would be eaten. Now a glider (as a rule) will not eat the peel of a fresh grape, they just eat the pulp. A dog or larger animal would consume the grape peel and all. If the tannins are the culprit that might account for why grapes consumed in any quantity would be a problem for dogs or larger animals.



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 01:30 AM

I've fed mine red seedless for 5yrs now. The do not eat the skins, and as far as raisins they eat the inside of it and leave a shell, it looks like little poobles in the bottom of the bowl, lol. I have bought sugar beet sticks from exotic nutrition and have bought many bowls and hangers for them as well. However, i've never purchased anything as far as meals, I tend to make my own BML mixture, do not feed them cat food, however, I used to when they were younger.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Gossamer
Thank you for the update Moorie. Now it makes sense.

I'm not going to feed something to my gliders that has the potential of causing death - whether it has to be a large quantity or not. If ten grapes cause death - then feeding one is okay? That's not logical to me. It's not heart medicine - there are plenty of other things you can feed your gliders. And as another said - the grape controversy is not new, Moorie didn't make it up.


Absolutely ... thanks Gossamer! If 10 grapes are toxic then if you feed 10 grapes over 10 weeks then the toxins are STILL going to build up in the system, sure because it's a 'trickle feed' it'll be slower because the body stands more chance of breaking down whatever toxin and excreting it from the system, BUT toxins are STILL going to build up, or maybe it's just SOME grapes that contain something bad ... the fact is we just don't know.

I'm NOT the sort of person to make mountains out of mole hills, personally I can't stand the drama on some forums! But I just don't think it's worth it, my suggies lives are far more important to me than feeding grapes! I'd rather have them alive and well.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 12:35 PM

Ever since I read the article about grapes from Suncoast...I do not feed them to my boys. I use the BML diet, and avoid the corn and grapes. I have been meaning to make a post as to why diets contradict each other - BML using these two ingredients, where as Suncoast avoids them?

Anyway, it is my opinion, that the BML is great for my boys, but using corn and grapes simply is not worth the risk. So many people feed them and have no problems, where as in other cases a glider can die unexpectedly and they not know why.
Just because it seems to not affect some of our gliders (that we can tell right now), does not mean that it is safe. I know this is all a debate - not a lot of actual evidence suggesting so, but the risk far out weighs the benefit. As was said above, there are many, many other things we can give out gliders that are much healthier for them.
Posted By: Gossamer

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 01:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Kris

Just because it seems to not affect some of our gliders (that we can tell right now), does not mean that it is safe. I know this is all a debate - not a lot of actual evidence suggesting so, but the risk far out weighs the benefit. As was said above, there are many, many other things we can give out gliders that are much healthier for them.


Well said.
Posted By: Gliderbuff

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 02:03 PM

I have said on many occasions this pattern of thinking, just not on here roflmao

1. People die of cancer.
2. People eat broccoli.
3. People who eat broccoli will die of cancer.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 03:59 PM

This is insane!

Cancer such as lung cancer has been directly linked to smoking - true? Sure non smokers die from lung cancer too, but that doesn't mean the first statement isn't correct!! This is a topic that has been active in the glider community for years, and now, healthy skunks eat grapes and die a few hours later displaying the same symptoms seen in dogs since 1989!

Around 1989, the APCC began noticing a trend in dogs who had eaten grapes or raisins: Nearly all developed acute renal (kidney) failure. As more cases were reported, enough data was generated in the database to help veterinarians identify and treat dogs at risk. In all of the cases, the ingredients for potential acute renal failure were the same. Whether the ingested grapes were purchased fresh from grocery stores or grown in private yards didn't seem to matter, nor did the brand eaten. And the ingested amounts varied considerably, from over a pound of grapes to as little as a single serving of raisins. The cases weren't from any specific region, but instead came from across the United States.
The database showed that dogs who ate the grapes and raisins typically vomited within a few hours of ingestion. Most of the time, partially digested grapes and raisins could be seen in the vomit, fecal material, or both. At this point, some dogs would stop eating (anorexia), and develop diarrhea. The dogs often became quiet and lethargic, and showed signs of abdominal pain. These clinical signs lasted for several days -- sometimes even weeks

When medical care was sought, blood chemistry panels showed consistent patterns. Hypercalcemia (elevated blood calcium levels) was frequently present, as well as elevated levels of blood urea nitrogen, creatinine and phosphorous (substances that reflect kidney function). These chemistries began to increase anywhere from 24 hours to several days after the dogs ate the fruit. As the kidney damage developed, the dogs would produce little urine. When they could no longer produce urine, death occurred. In some cases, dogs who received timely veterinary care still had to be euthanized.
Why did the fruit cause the dogs to become ill? No one knows. Suspect grapes and raisins have been screened for various pesticides, heavy metals (such as zinc or lead), and mycotoxins (fungal contaminants) and so far, all results have come back negative. In the cases where the grapes were grown in private yards, owners confirmed that no insecticides, fertilizers or antifungals had been used on the fruit.

"Raisin" the Success RateEven though the exact cause of the renal failure is unknown, dogs who ingest grapes and raisins can be treated successfully to prevent its development. The first line of defense is decontamination. Inducing vomiting in recent ingestions and administering activated charcoal helps prevent absorption of potential toxins. Dogs should be hospitalized and placed on intravenous fluids for a minimum of 48 hours. A veterinarian should monitor blood chemistry daily for at least three days following the ingestion. If all blood work is normal after three days, it's unlikely that kidney failure will occur. If a dog shows evidence of renal failure, fluids must be continued, and other medications should be used to stimulate urine production. Some dogs may need peritoneal dialysis, a process where the peritoneum (the membranes surrounding the abdominal organs) is used to filter waste products that are normally filtered by the kidney.
Thanks in part to the AnTox database, grape or raisin ingestion can be easily identified and treated. Today, a dog can make a complete recovery from this potentially fatal condition.

also

A less known toxin for pets is raisins and grapes. The ASPCA Poison Control Center indicates that raisins and grapes may be toxic to some dogs. The ASPCA Poison Control Center managed 140 cases of raisin or grape toxicity in the last year. Over 50 of these dogs developed symptoms ranging from vomiting to kidney failure, and 7 of these dogs died. The toxic principal causing these symptoms has yet to be identified. One specific case involved a 2 year old Australian shepherd that ingested 1 cup of raisins. The dog developed acute renal failure a few days later and died.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1833

also

Grapes/Raisins
Essentially unheard of prior to 2001, raisin and grape toxicity has become increasingly recognized as a real danger to pets. Although previously deemed as harmless treats, research has determined grapes and raisins have been linked to kidney failure in both dogs and cats. The toxic substance in grapes and raisins is unknown, as is the amount required to produce toxicity. Since 1989, the ASPCA has documented many cases of raisin and grape toxicity, and more recently (2001) it has been officially recognized as a toxin to animals. Studies of documented cases show estimated amounts of grapes or raisins eaten ranged from nine ounces to two pounds, with symptoms occurring within approximately 6 hours of ingestion. Symptoms include vomiting, loss of appetite, sluggishness, and abdominal pain. Testing found elevated blood calcium levels, as well as elevated levels of blood urea nitrogen, creatinine and phosphorous – all substances that reflect kidney function. The result is the development of acute renal (kidney) failure, within as little as 3 days of ingestion.


http://www.bdnhumanesociety.com/householddangers.htm

Also

http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/grapes.pdf?docID=189

To me, as I said before, my suggies lives are too precious, to me it's just not worth the risk.
Posted By: Gossamer

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 05:03 PM

Moorie - would you like a wall to bang your head upon? shakehead

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 08:57 PM

Gossamer, LOL! laugh Moorie, if you didn't live so far away, I'd offer you my wall...I mean, shoulder... wink Isn't there a drink called a "Harvey Wallbanger" or something? Maybe that would do the trick? LOL...

Listen, everyone, it's perfectly acceptable for each of us to have different thoughts and opinions...this is the flavorful spice of life and makes the world fun, colorful, and diverse. It does not matter whether we all think the same thing about grapes or not: we don't all have the same identical cage set up, we don't all feed the same diet, and we don't all live like clones of one another in glider or other aspects of life.

BUT, there is a common ground here that we all voluntarily share when we join GC: we are all presumably here "for the good of the glider." Look at it this way if you wish:

There is NO evidence that NOT feeding grapes is harmful to your glider. But there is anecdotal evidence that grapes MAY harm your glider. So why even risk it?

Grapes do not offer a single benefit or nutrient we know of for gliders that cannot be sourced from something else easily instead. So why insist on grapes still? Why not just take the "better safe than sorry" road, even if we later discover grapes weren't it, will have done no harm to eliminate them from the diet. You can easily reintroduce them later. But if they ARE later scientifically linked, won't you regret that if your glider dies and we find out AFTER the fact grapes could have played a role? Why risk it? It's not hard to just feed another fruit!

Vets and animal welfare organizations felt strongly enough about the POTENTIAL causal link in their database between grapes and dog deaths that they published an alert. It's not Moorie who did this, it's the vet database across the US that prompted the articles and concern. And Moorie, bad, bad girl that she is, simply posted a case where this was confirmed by HER FRIEND'S vet. The animals consumed a large quantity of grapes and DIED. In that case, it WAS a causal link. I don't assume anything of anyone here on this thread or list, but I will say that I personally do NOT feel so confident in my personal *opinion* that I would be willing to weigh my glider's health against a database of vet concern and the ASPCA's published alert. That's JUST me.

It's a mystery I don't care to solve with one of my own pet deaths, and I don't want yours to be harmed either.

We have no proof that it's JUST the grapes doing it...but we have NO proof that it ISN'T, either. Trinket and Spark won't be the next experiment here, I can tell you that. I'm not willing to gamble with it. I fully understand it is just that...a gamble, not a proven scenario. But I'm not willing to do it. If you are, fine, but there's NOTHING wrong with Moorie and others of us choosing not to. It's not paranoid, it's responsible.

If there was a recall on a baby toy, and it stated "SOME of the manufactured toys MAY have been shipped with a POTENTIALLY toxic ingredient in the plastic that can harm SOME babies," would you just say, "eh, my kid's been playing with it for a year and she's fine so I'm not ditching it?" Or would you say, "I'm not taking the chance. Maybe it's safe, maybe it's not, but why risk it?"

I may just be naive to this or out of the loop on something, but I don't understand why judgment has to be passed over this...we can get mad at someone if they are doing something blatant to HARM their glider, but not feeding grapes? Why would it bother anyone if someone else chooses not to feed their glider grapes based on this? Why would you WANT to feel the weight or responsibility of convincing someone grapes are fine when we just don't know? Why not just say, "we just don't know" and leave it at that, instead of make a case for something that may or may not lead someone else to act on YOUR opinion in a way that potential COULD harm their glider? We know that anyone who reads Moorie's post and does NOT feed grapes isn't in any way compromising their glider's health or safety MORE. But feeding them MIGHT.
Nobody is forcing you not to feed grapes. But without the information (which may be old to some who have seen it before, while new members join here everyday and it may be a totally new topic to THEM), how can you make an informed choice if you don't know about it? YOUR glider might not be affected at all by grapes. But how would you feel if you sited that as your main argument for "grapes are fine," and then someone else's glider died because of your recommendation? As I said earlier, some people aren't affected by foods that lead to kidneystones in others. There's simply no scientific evidence that helps us know whether my glider or yours will or will not be affected by grapes. So do with that what you will.

Vets and the ASPCA notice a trend, a pattern, a repetative observation. SO much of current medical science begins this way...often research studies yield new information nobody was looking for when data is collected and compared. I appreciate the vet database information being made public: why do you think they offered this to the public? Do you think vets stand to benefit by halting the grape industry? Or that the ASPCA has a vendetta against grapes and has taken them on to teach them a lesson? LOL These vets are trying to protect our beloved animals by saying honestly and openly, "our database found a pattern that GRAPES were found in the vomit which means GRAPES were commonly consumed in each of these renal failure cases." Surely, some dogs have renal failure for totally seperate reasons that have NOTHING to do with grapes, just like some people have cancer or back pain or strokes for various reasons. But if grapes is ONE of the potential reasons, why ignore it?

Moorie didn't come here and start bashing people who feed grapes...she took her sadness regarding a friend's loss and illustrated a story of a close friend of hers who's VET stated that two animals died due to heavy grape consumption.

I'm honestly baffled by the reactions here that are so cavalier about this specific situation and all it entails. It just isn't that hard to empathize with and say, "well, if grapes WERE the cause of death in these as confirmed by the vet, and many other documented cases were confirmed by other vets, do I NEED to know what it is in the grapes before I quit feeding them to MY pets?" Not one person said "I'm sorry for your friend's loss." ???

Grapes are off our animal menus, Moorie, and I'm so sorry your friends lost their pets. I appreciate your post, and I know there are other people here too who share your interest in early findings of science put forth on this as it evolves from studies, data, and research.
Posted By: eccles

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 10:51 PM

Ok Moorie kindly told me she had posted this on some american forums and kept my name discreet until i felt ready myself. im not ready yet but am shocked at some of the responses here, she is not passing on chinese whispers or making anything up, and i have not had the heart to get the documents and test results from my vet yet for god sake i have not even got the ashes back from their cremation.

IT WAS MY SKUNKS they died 2 days ago i grieve i hurt i feel so so guilty, its american skunk sites i went to to get my diet to be told grapes are safe for skunks (they even recommend putting vines in the garden if you want to attact them), and then to find out they are not, we didnt even link this to grapes at first we linked it to high protein levels even though my protein levels never go above 5% as thats the main cause of renal failure in skunks (or so was thought) but for both my skunks to die on the same day within a few hours after eating the grapes it was too much of a conicidence. our beloved Mary Jane showed the first signs, she started shaking then lost the ability to walk properly on her back legs and then she went limp, emergency trip to our vet ( who is very experienced with exotics and is the vet for our two local zoos) then a few hours later our male dropped in temp by a few degrees and started to shake, straight to the vet for him and we thought we had caught whatever it was early but alas no we were very very wrong. thats when we SUSPECTED the link to grapes and worked on that basis with the information our vet knew about dogs and grapes, our vet worked through that night and through the next day he stayed on after his shift had finished to save our little bundles of fluff, we got the first call at 8am to tell us stompy the male had died of renal failure we were praying to any god out there our female would pull through but i got another call that afternoon with the rest of the bad news. in the mean time tests had been taken by another vet bloods stools had been tested, and grapes were the cause.We can now add skunks to the list to the dangers of grapes and i hope to god none of you have to be the first case if it turns out they are dangerous for glider its somethign i hope you never have to go through,

you dont have to believe me you can call me a liar i dont care but dont misjudge Moories intentions with posting this, she was thinking of all of you and it gets thrown in her face.
Posted By: eccles

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 10:55 PM

Oh and just for the record they were red unseeded grapes
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 11:00 PM

Eccles, HUGS to you. hug2

I am so sorry for your loss. I am also praying that the loss of your sweet skunk babies, and the painful detail you offer to describe their deaths, will hit home with at least some of the people here, and help them to make a choice that honors your pet's lives and means they did NOT die in vain.

I do not want to read any stories of any gliders dying due to renal failure from too much grape consumption. The information is out there. Eccless and many dog owners have shared their personal stories.

I repeat, grapes are OFF our animal menu. We'll just never know, Eccles...maybe animal lives will be saved from this!

I am sending love and healing to you. Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. Maybe the more personal narrative of this will help stir compassion and empathy...and a hearty dose of well earned consideration...with this whole thread. We know for a fact we've got these two pet losses attributed to grapes. I hate to think that maybe when the count gets higher and MORE personal and hits home, more people will THEN consider the very easy, very harmless removal of grapes from their pet's diets?

I know people keep saying "all foods," but it seems to me this is pretty specific research, and a pretty specific cause of death from this vet. Eccles, again, hugs.

Love to you,
Jen/PocketFaeries
Posted By: eccles

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 11:07 PM

Thankyou Jen I'm a right mess tbh and it has taken lot of support from friends and they have all been very patient with me while i add little bits of information i remember from this nightmare, when this was first brought to the attention of the UK forums i fell to bits and could not explain myself at all, i was lucky a young lady i know that keeps skunks herself was able to giude me and ask questions without sending me to tears again, she then forwarded as much information as she could piece together from my and my other halfs rambling so some sort of actual factual information could be passed onto others. i am still babbling as im sure everyone can see and i still cant explain myself properly so im sorry if this doesnt make sense
Posted By: Gliderbuff

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 11:36 PM

I'm sorry, Morrie.

As a glider community, we all need to understand that certain information is not intended to hurt or even to condescend. For my part in being short-sighted I apologize. crazy

Thanks for trying to help "for the good of the glider" .
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/25/07 11:50 PM

To be honest, I won't be feeding grapes anytime soon regardless of this controversy- they have a 2 to 1 ph:ca ratio, and just aren't worth the worry...
Posted By: eccles

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/26/07 07:38 PM

And thankyou to Moorie for her continual support and to Jen for the well wishes for me and my partner, it means alot believe me
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/26/07 08:01 PM

i don't know about all of this i did read it in suncoast but like most of the people that have posted before me the only way we can be sure that they wont die is by not feeding them anything. i have feed coco grapes sence he was 8 oop and he loves them more than he loves his dry food. its not like grapes are candy i thought they were suppose to be good for them.so it would be like not eating fish because of tape worms or beef because of mad cow even though they say we cant get it from eating beef. no food is really safe.
Posted By: Gossamer

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/26/07 08:08 PM

Could someone please tell me when feeding your gliders grapes has become mandatory? That "well, we shouldn't feed them anything then" argument is ridiculous. I could list a hundered items that have NEVER been linked to an animals death. This one is walking up to you and slapping you in the face and you still ignore it. When has common sense been breed out of the human species? I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but it is so frustrating when people don't do what's right for their pets.

Eccles - I am sorry sorry for the lose of your skunks. I've never owned skunks, but have read what sweet and intelligent pets they are. If one person decides to stop feeding grapes because of their lose, then it wasn't in vain.
Posted By: eccles

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/26/07 08:22 PM

They are very intelligent and sneaky little monsters that go out of their way to get their own way, our girl Mary Jane was our piked eared princess of mayhem, she chased the dog to play she done the typical bouncy bouncy skunk run when she was found doing somethign she shouldnt, she climbed the stairs and climbed onto our bed stealing our pillows when she was ready for bed regardless of us being asleep or not, she clawed my legs for lap time and cuddles she is sorely missed. Sompy was more alloof he would chase us round the house when he was after something and make a groaning and grunting noise if we caught him upto something he should not be doing, he learnt how to break into the fridge 2 weeks after moving in and ran off with a lettuce (which he hates) to hide under a cabinet with it and then we heard a huge gruning noise and the stomping of his front feet and out popped this lettuce in disgust, we had to have the fridge locked to stop him getting in it. he was not a lap skunk he was a lay by your feet and wait to be stroked skunk but he was himself. We love them both and as you can see they kept us on our toes.

And Gossamer dont worry too much i have seen with my own eyes today what some of the glider community can be like to people they do not think are members here, shame I am aye guys, means you cant go on saying me or Moorie are making this up or Moorie is making up storys to scare people.

I have to say Im socked that only 2 or 3 people have bothered to be even a wee bit sensitive on this subject when it was my kids that died,its a different story when someones glider dies everyone trys to be gentle when replying but no come on me like a bulldozer! thanks I dont think I will be around here much longer I just cant believe how cruel some people are
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/26/07 08:34 PM

No bulldozer here, sweetheart. Just hugs, sympathy, and respect for what you have shared in order to help us all. hug2 I know some of the people here who came off as harsh just didn't think of how it sounded, and didn't mean it the way it came out. Maybe this will inspire tenderness in their hearts for you, just as I know you would have for them if they had lost their sweet animals. My heart goes out to you.

Love,
Jen
Posted By: eccles

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/26/07 08:43 PM

No Jen you have been a real star as have a few others here ty.

Im off now so if anyone wants any more questions feel free to get in touch with Moorie or Jungleflockmom. If anyone else feels like twisting the knife you know how to pm me
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 03:01 PM

not sure if this has been mentioned yet, because i havent read the whole post, but guys... if you actually read the articles out there( please when u post an article post the link to it) they say there is a trend. They do not know for sure if it is the grapes. Also the ASPCA page makes no mention of how many incidents that were recorded prior to 1989 in order for them to conclude there was a trend.
just some things to think about. Grapes could be the cause, but then again this could just be another thing we are [censored] out about.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 03:04 PM

Originally Posted By: silverwolf
well you know I may be a little old fashioned about all the controversy but for instance we are not to feed chocolate to our animals because it is toxic. But it isnt toxic to us. Therefore I can see where dogs may have a problem with grapes. Mainly because dogs are conivours by nature not herbivours. Therefore alot of fruit and other foods is not good for them. You need to look at the species that are getting into trouble and figure this out if you fed your horse meat for instance they would get sick their body make up is not designed to handle meat. Also I am a little skeptical about the whole organic thing. I think a bunch of farmers are calling their food organic and laughing all the way to the bank. Organic is just a way to get consumers to pay more for the same food. By the way I have seen this so its not just speculation. If people really wanted natural organic foods they would stop processing and homogonizing (like with milk) and drink or eat it raw. The only way I trust it being truely organic is if I grow it myself and dont use fertilizer or pestisides then it organic.


i forget the details but for a farmer to be able to call his food orgainic it has to pass certain guidelines.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 03:14 PM

I wrote a research paper on Organic food, and you are absolouty right, "Organic" is just as good as non organic.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: eccles
They are very intelligent and sneaky little monsters that go out of their way to get their own way, our girl Mary Jane was our piked eared princess of mayhem, she chased the dog to play she done the typical bouncy bouncy skunk run when she was found doing somethign she shouldnt, she climbed the stairs and climbed onto our bed stealing our pillows when she was ready for bed regardless of us being asleep or not, she clawed my legs for lap time and cuddles she is sorely missed. Sompy was more alloof he would chase us round the house when he was after something and make a groaning and grunting noise if we caught him upto something he should not be doing, he learnt how to break into the fridge 2 weeks after moving in and ran off with a lettuce (which he hates) to hide under a cabinet with it and then we heard a huge gruning noise and the stomping of his front feet and out popped this lettuce in disgust, we had to have the fridge locked to stop him getting in it. he was not a lap skunk he was a lay by your feet and wait to be stroked skunk but he was himself. We love them both and as you can see they kept us on our toes.

And Gossamer dont worry too much i have seen with my own eyes today what some of the glider community can be like to people they do not think are members here, shame I am aye guys, means you cant go on saying me or Moorie are making this up or Moorie is making up storys to scare people.

I have to say Im socked that only 2 or 3 people have bothered to be even a wee bit sensitive on this subject when it was my kids that died,its a different story when someones glider dies everyone trys to be gentle when replying but no come on me like a bulldozer! thanks I dont think I will be around here much longer I just cant believe how cruel some people are


i do not believe we think moorie is making up stories. I really dont think that was the issue here.
I also really dont think anyone was trying to hurt your feelings.
I have not read once on this or any other forum moorie posted on where someone was calling you or moorie a lier. what made me look into all the other forums was when moorie suggest to me that i was calling her a lier on another forum( which now seems to be edited smile ) So i am unsure why you both are feeling like we dont believe you, and think this is some joke. I think if we thought it was a joke we would laugh and leave it at that.
The issue that was brought to our attention was the issues with grapes and animals dying. I think even if it was a glider who someone said died of grapes everyone would still be talking the same way, wanting more info, wanting to know all the details, and what research was done. It seems as if we all strive on information here since these are exotic pets and not much is well known about them.
I am very sorry for your loss, i know how hard it is to loose an animal that you loved dearly. I hope you can realize that we are here to support you, but we also want information and do not mean to tread on your feelings while trying to gather such.
i know this can be a touchy subject but would you be willing to show us the autopsy report on your little guys. I dont ask because i think you are lying I ask because I think it will help other in the future.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: CinnaMom
I wrote a research paper on Organic food, and you are absolouty right, "Organic" is just as good as non organic.

Maybe oregon laws are different then.... I'll do more research into this as we speak. I was also wondering when you did this research paper?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 03:49 PM

i forget how to link on here, so bare with me if it doesnt link correctly.As for organic stuff. Here are the NOP regulations
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/NOPhome.html
It was a lot to read :)so.....
the crop information-pg 45
rules about handeling-pg 53
crop production changes based on comments-pg 63
crop productions clarifications-pg 81
handling changes based on comments-pg 100
handling clarifications-pg 106
description of regulations general requirements-pg 110, and its interesting until pg 114
also there is an interesting table on page 117. Many of you may not know, but there are different catagories for organic stuff, so this table explains it perfectly.
Also another interesting table on page 124
Then i stopped reading for now smile but u get the drift.... there are regulations that farmers have to follow in order to place the organic label on their produce, or livestock.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 04:47 PM

I guess it's experience on the boards that makes people read each post w/skepticism. Sometimes that's a good thing.

Here we have all been told of yet another species that presented at the vets as not able to move well (especially in the back legs) and very cold to the touch then renal failure. I've certainly read quite a few times on the boards of gliders dying in this same way and then vets scratching their heads as to the cause. Sometimes it's HLP/dystrophy. But maybe sometimes it's something else.

A glider eating a grape is sort of like a human eating a big watermelon. And a glider eating a globe grape is like a human eating 2 watermelons. And maybe it's the seeds.

But whatever the reason there is a problem w/grapes, we all have a choice to continue to feed them or not. I took them out of my birds' and gliders' diets ages ago. Who needs em?

My dogs and pot-bellied pigs have gotten into chocolate and cocoa and are still alive. Does that mean chocolate is ok? NO. It just means I got lucky. And I put those items on a higher shelf.

Moorie and eccles are very experienced animal keepers in the UK w/extensive knowledge and experience w/exotics. They have related a terrible experience and we appreciate their concern for all of the animals.

Eccles, thanks for posting even though you are so very sad and miss your babies terribly. Big hugs.

Posted By: silverwolf

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/27/07 05:35 PM

I just wanted to post an appology eccles if I offended in any way I am sorry and I did not mean to lessen your loss. When I origionally posted I didnt have enough information on what type of animal it was. I am truely sorry for your loss as I know how I would feel if any of my beloved pets died. Its just that it seem we hear a lot of dont feed this and dont feed that. I for one will not use grapes even as a treat anymore for my babies.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/28/07 02:59 AM

blush i'm very sorry for your loss, i do have some questions and i'm sorry if they're dumb and may have been answered, how long had you been feeding your little one's the grapes?
what's really sad on this, is that i just first heard of this now! i've had my gliders going on seven years now, and fed them grapes, not everyday but yeah fed them grapes for as long as i've had them! crazy so like dancing having fed hers for more than ten years, i think is what she had said, i'm not saying it's okay or not, i'm just curious, how long you had them eating them, obviously seven years of feeding my suggies grapes should have killed them by now right? i mean i don't read up under diets and feel really bad this is the first i've ever heard of this! I'm not knew in that i know every food that's veg or fruit is going to have potential sp harm being they all come from all over and are grown, honestly just because grapes have been brought up as the only thing seen by vets, shouldn't we now worry about all the other foods we're feeding them then?
i live in North dakota and i guess we grow alot of our stuff here and it's scary to think that according to the study of grapes that i guess my gliders might just die anytime now! so i need honest answers here? if i've been feeding them this long, will they be okay? how would i know if they're not okay, they act normal and play everyday like normal and overal haven't been sick once in the seven years i've owned them, only had to take my male in to get him nuetured otherwise my three have done awesome, other than be a little chuncky! again i'm very very sorry for your loss and totally agreen with the vet if they said it was grapes it was grapes, now i just need to know if i've got major problems now or not? thanks for all replies greatly appriciated dunno
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 05/28/07 04:28 PM

The APCC has noticed a trend in grapes relating to dogs getting sick. Here are the signs they said the dogs were having. NOTE they said a TREND, not YES it is an actual poision from grapes.the link is bellow if u want to read it all
.....The database showed that dogs who ate the grapes and raisins typically vomited within a few hours of ingestion. Most of the time, partially digested grapes and raisins could be seen in the vomit, fecal material, or both. At this point, some dogs would stop eating (anorexia), and develop diarrhea. The dogs often became quiet and lethargic, and showed signs of abdominal pain. These clinical signs lasted for several days -- sometimes even weeks

When medical care was sought, blood chemistry panels showed consistent patterns. Hypercalcemia (elevated blood calcium levels) was frequently present, as well as elevated levels of blood urea nitrogen, creatinine and phosphorous (substances that reflect kidney function). These chemistries began to increase anywhere from 24 hours to several days after the dogs ate the fruit. As the kidney damage developed, the dogs would produce little urine. When they could no longer produce urine, death occurred. In some cases, dogs who received timely veterinary care still had to be euthanized......
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_apcc_publicationsgrapes
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 06/01/07 12:39 PM

Dogs are not supposed to be fed anyway! Anyone who has had dos and a good vet should know this.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: More Grape Related Deaths - 06/01/07 11:22 PM

lol if i had a dog id feed it, although i would stick to just dog food.
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