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#1009480 - 09/25/10 11:36 PM URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
In  The Thread About Platinum Mosaics some genetic problems were discussed from some of the lines.

I want to put this out there ... because there are A LOT of glider affected, and breeders need to know. This genetic problem has been known about for some time, and while the breeders who discovered it worried about the implications, the problem has been spreading. Another big concern I will discuss later.

There is a genetic defect in the Frodo line. The defect is a recessive trait. Which means, that it is "bred out" the same way a Leu line is bred out. Therefore, there are ACTIVELY BREEDING GLIDERS who are now 100% het for carrying this genetic defect, and 50% het, and .... etc.

The "Wiggle Gene" manifests itself as a clear neurological problem. Joeys born with this defect are obvious from the minute they are OOP. They can not be still. They cannot control their body movements very well. They are able to walk, and eat, but it takes them extra time to learn to take care of themselves.

Because there have been enough joeys born with this trait, we are now able to CLEARLY trace the lines, the known 100% hets and most (NOT ALL) of the 50% hets. It is not possible to know how many other hets are out there and have not "proven out" yet.

I URGE you to NOT cross Frodo line gliders. If you have a glider on this list, it is a 100% carrier, or there is a 50% chance it is a carrier. If you have JOEYS from these gliders, they also could carry this genetic defect, and pass it on, the same way the Leu gene is passed on in hets.

FRODO is the original carrier.

Frodo and Noel produced Alex, who produced Beatrice.

Frodo and Lily produced Dante.

Dante and Beatrice bred and produced 4 joeys, 3 of them with this "wiggle gene" defect. Shortly after the 4th joey was born healthy, Beatrice was sold off and repaired, and we don't really know for certain what happened to Beatrice after that. The healthy joey was paired with Dante, who was neutered.

Here is a video of two of Dante and Beatrice's joeys. Dimitri, and his twin, Teagan, both whom DO have the "wiggle gene."


The KNOWN 100% carriers of this gene are:
Frodo     Boogie     Beatrice     Dante     Violet     Calypso     Mallory     Gardenia     Poppins     Gilthanas     Precious     Smidgin     Kitty

Here is a video of Shimmer, who expresses this gene:

This video was removed at the request of the breeder, who wishes to remain anonymous

These two joeys were just OOP last week:
This video was removed at the request of the breeder, who wishes to remain anonymous

Each time one of these gliders breeds, it's joeys become 50% hets for this genetic flaw.

The KNOWN 50% het carriers of this gene are:
Bailey     Bijou     Cookie     Daffi     Daisy     Ferdinand      Geppetto     Guisseppe     Heather     Hermoine     Jamie     Kala     Mechache     Memrie     Nemo     Seth     Suga     Sunshine     Xander     Zookie     Dylan     Hannah     Josh     Miss Molly     Panzy     Aurora      Charolette     Elfie     Forrest     Matklin     Mumsy     Willow     China Doll     Angelica     Apple AL     Aster     Casanova     Lily (E.S.G.)     Caspian     Cheezer     Ivy     Macaroni     Nila     Romeo     Rosie     Tera     Carlisle     Bright     Fancy     Jewel     Lil' Dude     Loli     Lukas     Maddie     Molly     Pop     Sharpie     Stitch     Bailey (tsp sugar)     Cleopatra     Holly     Tipkins

And those are only the ones recorded in the Pet Glider Database - there may be more.

In fact, this genetic flaw has been "bred out" almost more effectively than the leu gene! There are those who have thought that the gene could only be passed when in-breeding occurs. But you can clearly see how quickly the "hets" are producing. This gene started with grey and white faced lines, but has now possibly contaminated the leucistic, mosaic, and cremino lines. This gene has been proven to successfully pass quietly over 6 generations before surfacing again when two carriers were placed together.

ALL breeders: please look at your lineages. If any of the gliders above appear in your lineages, you must think VERY CAREFULLY about breeding that glider.

Now for the other big concern that those who have traced this gene have: That as a result of this research, gliders will be split from their bonded mates and be bred to others. I personally would encourage breeders to neuter their gliders that are higher hets for this gene, so as to avoid passing it on further. My wish would be for current pair bonds to be allowed to live out their lives together as non-breeding pairs. I realize every breeder will have to make their own ethical decisions.

PLEASE do not turn this thread into finger pointing and name calling and breeder bashing. There is NO USE pointing fingers now. The important thing is to stop the spread of this genetic flaw in gliders, so that our beloved gliders do not develop the same genetic curses as Waardenburg's Syndrome in ferrets, or Wobbly Headed-Syndrome in hedgehogs. We breeders CAN STOP the progression of this now, simply by checking lineages, and retiring some breeding pairs.

You can see all the currently known videos of the joeys expressing this gene here:
Wiggle Album


Edited by ValkyrieMome (09/26/10 12:02 AM)
Edit Reason: videos removed
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1009488 - 09/26/10 12:20 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 680
Loc: michigan
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

The KNOWN 100% carriers of this gene are:
Frodo     Boogie     Beatrice     Dante     Violet     Calypso     Mallory     Gardenia     Poppins     Gilthanas     Precious     Smidgin     Kitty


The KNOWN 50% het carriers of this gene are:
Bailey     Bijou     Cookie     Daffi     Daisy     Ferdinand      Geppetto     Guisseppe     Heather     Hermoine     Jamie     Kala     Mechache     Memrie     Nemo     Seth     Suga     Sunshine     Xander     Zookie     Dylan     Hannah     Josh     Miss Molly     Panzy     Aurora      Charolette     Elfie     Forrest     Matklin     Mumsy     Willow     China Doll     Angelica     Apple AL     Aster     Casanova     Lily (E.S.G.)     Caspian     Cheezer     Ivy     Macaroni     Nila     Romeo     Rosie     Tera     Carlisle     Bright     Fancy     Jewel     Lil' Dude     Loli     Lukas     Maddie     Molly     Pop     Sharpie     Stitch     Bailey (tsp sugar)     Cleopatra     Holly     Tipkins



SO ARE GLIDERS ON THESE LISTS STILL PRODUCING BABIES??????? breeders are breeding these gliders knowing the possibility of a genetic defect? WHY? How long have people known this? I have read everything on here for two years and never heard of the lines been effected genetically? I have seen Dante videos but I thought that he was a direct cause and effect of inbreeding.......This is heartbreaking!!! I am confused?!?!?!?
_________________________
-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci

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#1009491 - 09/26/10 12:39 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I don't know. I wish I did.

I hope people with more genetic knowledge than I have will come out of the woodwork and discuss this! I have seen the evidence, and I've traced some of the lines through the Pet Glider Database.

I know I'm going to get a lot of grief for this, because there are people who are still breeding, who feel that if they just "tell the people that buy their joeys" then everything will be ok. But - they are creating hets. Who are creating hets. And, you may talk to whomever buys your joeys - but does THAT breeder? We already know that after a generation or two, people have started selling mosaics not mentioning they are sterile line! I'm sure not deliberately - but you can't control the people who buy your joeys joeys!!

This has been known about for at least 2 years - that I am aware. Yet, the people directly involved have repeatedly refused to come forward and post information.

I've been accused - by one of the breeders involved - of posting this merely to get attention or to start drama. I've been accused of taking people's personal information and posting it.

I'm not posting about someone's divorce, or problems with their work or financial situation. I'm posting about GLIDERS with GENETIC defects - which have been known about for years, and hushed up. If I'm speaking out of turn, then it is because the people directly involved have been given every opportunity to be honest, and yet have refused.

I'm VERY VERY sorry that this has made people uncomfortable and angry. I did not see another way, and my sense of right and wrong just could NOT allow this to carry on. Especially since two more joeys were OOP last week.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1009492 - 09/26/10 12:45 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/26/09
Posts: 2294
Loc: NY
I'm confused as to why people are continuing to breed gliders with known genetic "flaws"? Why try and keep it secret unless these breeders know that they're doing wrong?
_________________________
~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin

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#1009495 - 09/26/10 12:52 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
dizzyblue Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 566
Loc: richmond,indiana
I sad toward the breeder who wants to not be mentioned. So they are breeding these poor babies...I'm upset at that idea...Sometimes I think gliders bring out the very best and the very worst in people.

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#1009496 - 09/26/10 12:55 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 680
Loc: michigan
I have attempted to look at my gliders lineages and from what I can tell the breeders I have anyways are not effected lines. But who knows I am fairly new and frankly their are a-lot of gliders on that list!!!!!!!! It would have been much easier as a new breeder as myself to just avoid the effected lines. But now I already have my breeding pairs. I will look over their lineage better tomorrow honestly THIS MAKES ME SICK! I come here to learn all I can and to learn to do all the right things. The advice I have been given I have followed it hopes to have happy healthy gliders to produce sweet healthy babies! I checked my COI's made sure they were low and that the offspring would be even lower! I bought a WFB to breed out my Lue because the big hoopla of the COI's going up in Leu lines.

Why would anyone be UPSET on a site that states in it's title For The Good Of The Glider!!!!!!!! WATCH THE VIDEOS<<<<<<does that look like it is good for the glider! I want no part of THAT! That is painful to watch and just SAD!



Edited by cryingoutloud37 (09/26/10 12:56 AM)
_________________________
-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci

Top
#1009497 - 09/26/10 01:06 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I would like to say - because this is the Frodo line, it could affect A LOT of gliders! There are MANY gliders with Frodo in their lineage.

Think of it exactly the way you think of the leu gene - but this is more of the "anti-leu gene." If a glider is known to be a carrier, then it is known to be producing hets.

If a glider is a possible het - then the farther away from the actual carrier they get, the lower the het percentage.

If you have a glider that, due to that list, is a high percentage het - you need to consider taking that glider out of your breeding program.

If you have a glider that is a low percentage het, then it is more a personal choice then an ethical decision - in my opinion. If you are breeding a low percentage het to a glider without Frodo in the lineage, I'm not certain that would be a problem. Because, honestly - there are a LOT of gliders with Frodo in their lineage, and we can't take them ALL out of breeding!

I honestly can't understand recessive genetics. I get easily confused - that's why I've chosen NOT to include leus in my breeding program. BUT - I am also checking my lines carefully, and quite possibly some gliders will be neutered!

How to calculate:
Start at the nearest CONFIRMED carrier of the gene, from the above list. This is 100%. For each generation, half the percentage, just like with leu or albino. A glider 5 generations from Frodo would only have a 3.125% chance of carrying the gene. However, a grandchild of Frodo would have a 25% chance of carrying the gene. I would advise that anything 12.5% or higher be retired, I would greatly urge anyone with a 50% het or higher to retire the glider immediately.


Edited by ValkyrieMome (09/26/10 01:52 AM)
Edit Reason: added calculation
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1009500 - 09/26/10 01:53 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Peeka02
Unregistered


Alden, thank you for bringing this up. I do not see why a discussion like this would upset anyone we are all glider lovers here. I'm sure this thread will be full of great information.

This is why I will probably never breed. There is so much more that goes into it besides putting two good looking gliders together. I applaud those who do take the time and effort into breeding so that I may in turn enjoy happy healthy gliders.

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#1009502 - 09/26/10 02:17 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
"THERE IS NO NEED FOR MASS HYSTERIA, IN EVERY CASE THAT IS KNOWN THERE HAS BEEN DIRECT INBREEDING"

Beth....I hope you are proud of yourself! Is your vendetta against one person that important? Really?

Alden why are you involved in a thread like this? You don't understand the depth of what you have posted....Seems you have some thinking to do yourself wink

Do you guys even realize most of the gliders you have mentioned are dead or too old to breed? Further more this is not new....Not breaking news as you would like to make people think. Beth has spoke of her babies to anyone who would listen for years. Video after video and link after link to show the relation of the parents. So how is this all of a sudden reason for panic?

If the descendants of every glider mentioned was to be pulled from a breeding program over 75% of our gliders would have to separated and neutered. Just how many gliders are there out there that are WF or have WF in their lineage? Think about this....there are under 10 wiggle babies in existence. Every single one of those has been bred to closely, the most recent occurrence of wiggle baby was produced by breeding gliders where the father is also the grand father on the bottom. I have been following the occurrence of this gene for several years now as I have a baby here with that disorder, he was born out a gray pair I rescued and the joeys were in pouch when she got here. Alden I'm sure you remember him...it is Hook who I speak of.

To give you all some history the original WF gliders were Cereal, Pearl, Princess from this line. Their offspring are Grandy Gomez, Angel Face, Ceaser, Cleo, Doc, Frodo, Gabby, Gratiano, Gussy, Princess, Sandman, Ariyanna, Blondie, Godfrey, Lily and Sage. I may have missed a few. That would affect most of our gliders in existence today.

This is exactly why I have stressed over and over the workings of genetics, I have tried to educate as many people as I could about COI's. If you are breeding youhave the responsibility to know the issues in the lines, you also have the responsibility to understand genetics enough to be able safely pair your gliders. So the buck stops here...own up the responsibility you have assumed upon deciding to breed. Breeding entails a lot more than putting gliders together!
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#1009503 - 09/26/10 02:18 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: cryingoutloud37]
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 680
Loc: michigan
Originally Posted By: cryingoutloud37
I have attempted to look at my gliders lineages and from what I can tell the breeders I have anyways are not effected lines.



I was wrong shakehead Two of my three pairs are affected by this!!!! This makes me SAD! One of my affected females is pregnant! < This could of been avoided.
_________________________
-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci

Top
#1009504 - 09/26/10 02:32 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Adri, I've seen this thread and this was not my doing. I have a great deal to lose if I am part of this.

My "vendetta" against one person in particular has long past. I still don't like her or her practices, but this far more than me. I don't breed this gene. I am saddened that it has spread as far as it has, but the person that started it all cannot do anything to change what already is. It looks to me like this thread was posted simply to inform the public of a very real issue in popular bloodlines. So, I don't like someone...I have been stifled every time I've tried to do the responsible thing and tell people that this gene should be considered in their pairings. Tell me how it's ok that people are breeding this gene further into lines, without ever being given a chance to know any better, simply to protect one person's reputation?

I think you must have been mixed up the last time we conversed. I will PM you.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#1009505 - 09/26/10 02:40 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Adri - how could people KNOW the genetics if it was hushed up or dismissed? Beth has been telling everyone, yes - but she's also been told "it isn't an issue" and "it only happens with inbreeding." That is NOT the case.

I didn't know until today that Hook had the disorder. I thought he was blind. Poor sweet little guy. I'm glad you're giving him a good home.

NO - this SHOULD NOT cause mass hysteria. But it IS, as you say, Adri, one more thing people should be aware of when choosing their pairings. You can't be careful about what you don't know exists!

This is NOT about a vendetta. This is about breeders thinking they can do "damage control" by telling their customers if a pairing is "ok" or not.

Since posting this thread, I've been PMed by many people. Many of them have gliders with a 3.125% possibility of having this disorder. But at least one person had gliders from TWO different breeders, both are het for this disorder, and had no clue. This person was about to put together a WF with a 25% chance of having this disorder with AN UNRELATED (at least as far as COI goes) glider who has a 12.5% chance of having this disorder. Is that OK?

Why am I involved in a thread like this? Hmmm. That is part of the argument that one of the breeders involved in this gave me. Alden, just butt out so we can hush it up as we have since 2005. Why am I involved? Because I also have Frodo line gliders.

I've known of Beth's little gliders for years. They are adorable and the videos break my heart. However - I had NO IDEA that it affected me until more joeys were born that had the disorder, and it was traced more accurately.

The gliders are too old to breed? Dead or retired? It isn't about THEM, it is about their lineages! If someone is choosing to breed- shouldn't they know the ENTIRE picture?

Just a thought - all the joeys that are pulled while they are IP, or cannibalized. We'll never know the reasons, really. But what if some of those were because of THIS? This genetic defect which can be PREVENTED if you know it is in the lineage!

edited to add: DON'T PANIC! JUST BE INFORMED! IT WILL ALL BE OK, REALLY!

Also edited to add: Adri - why did you call out Beth? This isn't because of her.


Edited by ValkyrieMome (09/26/10 02:59 AM)
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1009506 - 09/26/10 02:49 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Peeka02
Unregistered


Remember not everyone has been around gliders for years or has that kind of experience so when we hear about the wiggle gene for the first time I think the natural response would be to panic. While this may be old news to some its quite new to others. I don't see why we won't be able to have an honest polite discussion about this for people who are new.

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#1009507 - 09/26/10 03:39 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
No Beth at the time we conversed I was well aware of the breeder you referenced and glider in question. The problem here is you have now someone who understands genetics in the same way I understand nuclear physics posting this "warning" and making recommendations that make absolutely NO SENSE.

Alden, YOU have gliders from these lines!!! We ALL do, these gliders are in everybody's lineage. Yet you are recommending people to neuter and separate gliders? This upsets me beyond belief, the last time a thread similar to this was started it caused more heartbreak and distress than I care to remember! I spent months talking to people after that and reassuring them that they had no reason to worry. Now we have this...I am all for education I spend countless hours trying to do just that. But really think about the magnitude of this post it affects just about every glider of every color that has WF of any of the above mentioned gliders is a possible carrier. If this was as severe as it has been made out to be we would have a much much larger number of "wiggle babies" born everyday.

I truly feel IF we are diligent in our breeding programs this will continue a non issue, other than something to watch for when pairing our gliders. Please don't think I am trying to discredit anyone I am not...BUT this has only surfaced when inbreeding has occurred.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#1009508 - 09/26/10 03:43 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Adri, again, I don't "have" anyone doing anything. I am a passive observer. I would not even be posting on this thread were it not for your mention of my name. I had nothing to do with this thread, I gave up trying to publicly raise awareness about this gene quite a while ago.

Edit: I don't see where Alden says that anyone should separate gliders, and from what I see, it sounds like she is only giving information, not demanding that anyone be neutered. I don't condone the separation of any pairs because of a genetic flaw, and neutering ANY glider is up to the breeders themselves.

Edit again: Adri and I just had a fantastic 2 1/2 hour conversation on the phone, Adri is a really great lady. I think we got a lot of things cleared up. We may not agree 100% but she works toward the same goal as so many of us do. I really enjoyed chatting with you, Adri!


Edited by kitsune (09/26/10 06:44 AM)
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#1009517 - 09/26/10 07:46 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: Adri

This is exactly why I have stressed over and over the workings of genetics, I have tried to educate as many people as I could about COI's. If you are breeding youhave the responsibility to know the issues in the lines, you also have the responsibility to understand genetics enough to be able safely pair your gliders. So the buck stops here...own up the responsibility you have assumed upon deciding to breed. Breeding entails a lot more than putting gliders together!

As a new breeder, I have done my best to be responsible! I asked a very knowledgeable friend of mine to check the COI of the babies I bought, long before I ever contacted the breeders to make an offer. Checking the COI has nothing to do with not having the information of certain gliders having this 'wiggle gene'. My gliders' COI is excellent with the pairings I want. BUT, without the information available on the 'wiggle gene', neither she nor I knew to ask about it.

Now I'm upset because in looking over this list, I'm wondering if one of MY gliders has one of the above mentioned gliders in its' lineage. I've turned to my friend again, to now check for this gene in gliders I've already purchased. Did I just spend almost $1000 for a glider I now can't breed? Sure, I'll love him/her just as much if s/he has to be a pet only glider. But I would have paid a pet only price to begin with.

Until now, this information wasn't available to me, to be able to make an informed decision. Thank you Alden, for helping the rest of us know what to look out for. I sure didn't know before.

Those videos are absolutely heart breaking and I worry about the quality of life of those precious babies.
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1009518 - 09/26/10 07:53 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
How refreshing it is to see breeders discussing an issue like this without all the finger pointing blame game that usually goes on.
People who breed DO need to be aware of this type of condition and the lines it comes from, otherwise, how can they make an educated decision when putting their pedigrees together for their pairings.
They used to say u can't throw the baby out with the bath water and this is so true. However, you can proceed from this point on with making better decisions regarding how you pair your gliders and checking out pedigrees closely to be sure you aren't increasing the chances for this and contributing to the problem.
Its good to see this thread is more concerned about the good of the gliders and where to go from where we are than whomever it was that started the situation in the first place.
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#1009521 - 09/26/10 08:21 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Karen523
Unregistered


Alden, Thank you so so much for starting this thread! I'm Rosie's mom, the one who started asking too many questions in the thread about Platinum Mosaics. I had planned to start a thread about this after church today, but I'm happy that you started it. I don't know enough about Wiggles to be able to inform anyone about it. I'm still a bit shocked by all this, but I won't be quiet about it and go into hiding.
Please, please, please, everyone, let's keep this thread civil so the moderators don't have any reason to lock it. I have been trying to avoid giving the name of Rosie's breeder for the same reason.
I hate seeing Rosie's name on the list of carriers, but I would hate even more for an unsuspecting glider owner to get the rude suprise that I got yesterday.
I will have Rosie's mate, Cisco, neutered as soon as I can. I hate to do that, but I don't want to add to the problem. I'm pretty sure that Rosie has a joey in pouch.

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#1009529 - 09/26/10 08:42 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: St. Charles, Missouri
That video is very disturbing to watch. I can't imagine anyone knowing about this gene would continue to breed. BTW, I've been actively breeding for over 7 years and I didn't know about this gene. Who knew about this and didn't do anything???
_________________________
Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.



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#1009531 - 09/26/10 08:52 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ]
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 3047
Loc: atkins arkansas
Originally Posted By: Peeka02
Alden, thank you for bringing this up. I do not see why a discussion like this would upset anyone we are all glider lovers here. I'm sure this thread will be full of great information.

ppl will get upset if they see they are breeding and dont want to stop. those who wont help stop this line are directly effecting the health of the joeys. im so glad this topic was brought to light, i never knew about any of it. i dont breed, so it doesnt effect me,.... BUT.... IF someone breeds and sells a baby with this trait in its line, the new owners NEED to be told! its not fair to NOT get that info and go home with a baby who can pass that on!
_________________________
~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart

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#1009540 - 09/26/10 09:32 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: eterrell84]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
I was just informed on September 14th that my WF Mosaic, Lukas, carries this gene. I purchased this glider over a year ago for breeding. He is paired with a glider with no WF in her lineage, and I have been assured that this trait will not be manifested in their offspring. However, the gene will be passed on...

So, my question is... do I neuter this pair? I have kept all 3 joeys so far. Can this only be passed with inbreeding? How far back? Do I now have a pet-only pair?
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1009541 - 09/26/10 09:33 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5402
Loc: Michigan
This is disturbing news to me. I have been around gliders for only the last couple years, a very short time compared to most of you, but I have never heard of this until now. I do have gliders that have some of these gliders in their lines in just the little bit of research I have done just now. If it is so well known, why haven't we been told & why were these gliders bred? So far I have Frodo 4 & 5 generations back and have never had a wiggle syndrome joey. Is that far enough removed?
_________________________
Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686

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#1009542 - 09/26/10 09:46 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: St. Charles, Missouri
Lynn, if you have Frodo 4 and 5 generations back, you need to check into the lines more and find out exactly where your gider stands in the lineage.
_________________________
Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.



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#1009550 - 09/26/10 10:06 AM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
** Locked for admin review **
_________________________
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>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#1009634 - 09/26/10 01:59 PM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: StitchsMom]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41289
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Quote:
Drama Posts
We have repeatedly told the members of GliderCENTRAL we do not want any drama being brought and posted here. Well for the most part some have listened, and others haven't and that is getting out of hand. Failing to abide by our requests are a violation of rule 4. Yes we all know there is drama everywhere. GliderCENTRAL will not be the mid grounds for everyone to post about the drama no matter what it is or who is saying it. GliderCENTRAL is here for one reason and one reason only, to help the gliders and their owners and nothing more. Drama only takes away from gliders and their owners who need help. We have asked many times to leave the drama off, but it seems that some are just not listening. So now whats going to happen now? If you make a post about the drama, feed into the drama posts, instead of hitting the notify mod button so the post can be reviewed and removed, your account will be suspended for a period of time to be determined by the admins. We do not care what drama anyone is saying about anything, the bottom line is do not post about the drama here at GliderCENTRAL. This is not being done to keep people from talking, it is being done because we do not want drama here. We are sorry to have to do this, but we tried to ask nicely but that failed. KarenE even made a similar post earlier today stating. Drama posts WILL result in the loss of posting privileges for a time to be determined by Administration.


Quote:
Rule 4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.


This thread will be kept open as long as the rules are followed.

THIS WILL BE THE ONLY WARNING POSTED.

Some personal issues have been worked out. Others, I am not sure, but I will tell you up front, we will not tolerate Mod Notifications simply to tell on each other. If you cannot conduct yourselves in an adult manner, STAY OUT OF THE TOPIC.
_________________________
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Sugar Glider Help



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#1009645 - 09/26/10 02:22 PM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome]
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 680
Loc: michigan
Okay here is my question for today.....If this genetic defect works like the leu gene and people continue to breed in out isn't it possible for a lower het to prove out? Therefore bringing the defect to the forefront once again. I understand the chances are slim but some are saying if you don't breed frodo to frodo everything should be fine meanwhile creating hundreds of hets?????? In all lines if people are not careful! People are saying don't panic don't pull your breeders with low hets IT WILL BE OK???? But why is any chance of this defect resurfacing somewhere down the road ok?
_________________________
-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

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Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci

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#1009653 - 09/26/10 02:34 PM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Thank you for reopening the thread, Karen. It is NOT my intention that this cause drama or panic.

PLEASE DO NOT PANIC!


The gliders listed as 100% hets for this syndrome have either produced joeys with the wiggle gene, or their parents have.

The lineages are pretty straight forward - and all go directly back to Frodo. I am happy to create a lineage chart so that people can see in picture form where the gene has shown up. It will take me a bit to do that - so please be patient.

It is said that this is a result ONLY of inbreeding. However - why then would it skip 7 generations and then show up again?

Because I choose NOT to participate in genetics discussions, and have chosen not to include leus or leu hets in my breeding does not mean I'm clueless or an idiot.

Originally Posted By: Adri
Alden, YOU have gliders from these lines!!! We ALL do, these gliders are in everybody's lineage. Yet you are recommending people to neuter and separate gliders?

Yes - I stated that *I* have gliders with this lineage! Yup! I do! Read what I wrote - this concerns me because *I* have gliders with this lineage. *I* want to make informed breeding choices and I choose to think that most breeders want the same.

I SPECIFICALLY DID NOT state that pairs should be separated. I specifically warned and advised against that. I do recommend that gliders who are KNOWN to be 100% hets, or even 50% hets for this be neutered. Why not neuter?

Originally Posted By: Adri
I truly feel IF we are diligent in our breeding programs this will continue a non issue, other than something to watch for when pairing our gliders. Please don't think I am trying to discredit anyone I am not...BUT this has only surfaced when inbreeding has occurred.

It has NOT only surfaced when inbreeding has occurred. It has surfaced 7 generations away from Frodo! Our calculations count 7 generations as a 0% inbreeding COI.

I agree - DILIGENT and INFORMED breeding should be the ONLY kind practiced by ANY breeder. Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

PLEASE NO ONE PANIC! This is no worse than when the lineages in the Pet Glider Database were adjusted, and people had to rethink their breeding pairs. In fact, this is actually NO WHERE NEAR that scale!

However, breeders should be aware. And that's why I started this thread!

*I* started this thread - NOT BETH. I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Edited by ValkyrieMome (09/26/10 03:00 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1009654 - 09/26/10 02:42 PM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: cryingoutloud37]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: cryingoutloud37
Okay here is my question for today.....If this genetic defect works like the leu gene and people continue to breed in out isn't it possible for a lower het to prove out? Therefore bringing the defect to the forefront once again. I understand the chances are slim but some are saying if you don't breed frodo to frodo everything should be fine meanwhile creating hundreds of hets?????? In all lines if people are not careful! People are saying don't panic don't pull your breeders with low hets IT WILL BE OK???? But why is any chance of this defect resurfacing somewhere down the road ok?

Based on the way this syndrome has SO FAR surfaced, some logical (but not proven or scientific) conclusions can be drawn.

This doesn't seem to be a "subtle" het. Unlike leus, the gliders producing these joeys don't seem to produce a whole lot of hets. In one breeding pair, 3 out of 4 joeys manifested this disorder. In another, I believe it was 4 out of 4? or maybe it was 2 out of 2? It seems that when both parents carry the gene - you will know pretty quickly.

However - yes ... the most recent instances were a 7th generation Frodo line glider bred to a 5th generation Frodo line glider (I will have to confirm those, but I know that one was 7th generation.) There was no indication prior to their 2 joeys being born that either was a carrier for the gene. So - YES, low percentage hets can prove out.

My best advice at this time (and I'm not claiming to be the best person to give advice!) is that gliders with any of the hets listed in their lineages NOT be bred together! I would further recommend that ALL the 100% hets, and all the 50% hets be removed from breeding. I know that won't be popular, but that's what I would do! I would also not breed any 25% hets, or 12.5% hets - but that's me. Perhaps it is too cautious? I don't know. For me, I'd rather be safe than sorry!


Edited by ValkyrieMome (09/26/10 02:43 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1009655 - 09/26/10 02:46 PM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: cryingoutloud37]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: cryingoutloud37
Okay here is my question for today.....If this genetic defect works like the leu gene and people continue to breed in out isn't it possible for a lower het to prove out? Therefore bringing the defect to the forefront once again. I understand the chances are slim but some are saying if you don't breed frodo to frodo everything should be fine meanwhile creating hundreds of hets?????? In all lines if people are not careful! People are saying don't panic don't pull your breeders with low hets IT WILL BE OK???? But why is any chance of this defect resurfacing somewhere down the road ok?


This is my thought too. I'm not understanding why, if this is a defect, it can't be bred out. Granted, I know little to nothing about COI and hets and color possibilities. That's why I asked for advice from several experienced breeders and glider owners, before I purchased Serendipity to bred with Kanani. That's also why I asked for advice before purchasing Dew Drop and Mercedes. But I would really love to learn about this on my own.

It's confusing to me, because I've heard that a line can be "bred out" to lower the COI. I guess I need a more detailed explanation of what "bred out" means. dunno confused
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

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#1009656 - 09/26/10 02:47 PM Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Adri


Do you guys even realize most of the gliders you have mentioned are dead or too old to breed?


Adri, many of the gliders shown here in the list are not very old. Macaroni and Cheezer are less than two years old. I know because "I" have Macaroni AKA Malachi. He can't make babies so no problem there but his brother Cheezer might be able to. (I wouldn't know who has him)

Alden, what does the ESG mean by Lily's name?
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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