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#1035802 - 11/28/10 10:02 AM Impregnating after Neuter
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Quote:
They can still impregnate a female for up to maybe 2 weeks after the neuter!!


I do not understand how this is possible. When a glider is neutered, the testicles and the epididymis are removed. At that point, there is no sperm in their body.

How can this possibly be true? Am I missing something? I keep hearing this, but just don't understand the logic.
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#1035803 - 11/28/10 10:06 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
dunno Good question. I know that their hormones are still very much active after the neuter for up to 3 months according to my vet. Would love to see what others respond.
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:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
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#1035805 - 11/28/10 10:09 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
That is true, but hormones alone can't "do the deed". smile Can't wait to see what others say.
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#1035812 - 11/28/10 10:29 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Shelly, you are correct. Sperm has a very short life span of only about 72 hours. So IF a male were to mate within that first 72 hours post neuter, there is a SLIM chance of impregnating a female but again, that is a SLIM chance.

I'm not sure where this "idea" of males being able to get a female pregnant even a month after neutering came from but it is a total myth.


Now, females CAN store embryos in stasis for up to a year. She is already pregnant, just not letting the embryo develop until SHE feels the time (and food/climate etc) is right. This maybe where the idea came from that males can get females pregnant post neuter.
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#1035827 - 11/28/10 10:52 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Megs
Unregistered


I've been told UP TO 30 days, but 2 wks is 'more like it'. dunno

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#1035835 - 11/28/10 11:11 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11939
Loc: Wisconsin
I am going to agree with Dancing, sperm had a relatively short life.

I think that people say they can impregnate females after a neuter because they have experienced the female having joeys after a neuter, when in all reality the female had the joeys in stasis.
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Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
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#1035840 - 11/28/10 11:27 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Sperm just can not survive 30 days or even 2 weeks for that matter.
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620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1035868 - 11/28/10 01:51 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I have heard it and seen it here a few times, I wanted to dispel the myth!

A few people have asked me, and I have told them that if there are joeys post-neuter, it would be due to the female holding them in stasis and not the male. He would have already bred her before the neuter.

I guess there could be that slim chance within the first 72 hours, but that would be very slim. The sperm would had to have already been in the Urethra prior to the neuter.

And how many males actually try to breed within 72 hours after that kind of surgery? I would think they would be takin' it easy! roflmao
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#1035869 - 11/28/10 02:00 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Yea, that post op "pain" (discomfort, shock, whatever) would stop MOST males from even attempting to mate. I've never had any of my boys even consider it post neuter.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1036417 - 12/03/10 05:40 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
My vet said that it's nearly impossible for a male to impregnate post neuter and that slim chance dips down to nothing after about three days.
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#1036997 - 12/05/10 10:45 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: Dancing]
crisis668 Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 175
Loc: CT
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Shelly, you are correct. Sperm has a very short life span of only about 72 hours. So IF a male were to mate within that first 72 hours post neuter, there is a SLIM chance of impregnating a female but again, that is a SLIM chance.

I'm not sure where this "idea" of males being able to get a female pregnant even a month after neutering came from but it is a total myth.


Now, females CAN store embryos in stasis for up to a year. She is already pregnant, just not letting the embryo develop until SHE feels the time (and food/climate etc) is right. This maybe where the idea came from that males can get females pregnant post neuter.


100% correct.
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#1061132 - 01/26/11 03:57 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: crisis668]
Holydust
Unregistered


Okay, wow. That is really fascinating. I didn't know the female could hold the embryo "in stasis"! Imagine if we could do that. laugh

"Oh no, we're expecting? But I'm about to get a promotion. Let's put this off until August, okay?" Life would be so much easier.

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#1061157 - 01/26/11 04:57 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
DARON
Unregistered


So what's the longest after neuter pregnancy anyone here has experienced?

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#1061296 - 01/26/11 08:49 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: ]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: DARON
So what's the longest after neuter pregnancy anyone here has experienced?


The longest that I have heard reported that a joey was held in stasis is one year. Not sure if they can hold them any longer than that or not. Remember, the female was actually impregnated PRIOR to the neuter. Once the male is neutered, he can no longer impregnate the female. wink
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#1062837 - 01/29/11 05:54 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
DARON
Unregistered


WOW! So, you have your male neutered and dont want to have any more joeys to raise and a year later you realize that your female is pregnant.
Man if humans worked that way, us guys would be sweating bullets for a whole year after ending a relationship(LOL!). On the other hand, if we were trying to have a baby we would be getting very impatient.

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#1063280 - 01/30/11 11:48 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
It's not common at all.
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Maia & Squish
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#1153107 - 07/28/11 07:41 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
(Copied from my post on TSS upon request)

This topic has come up several times in the last few weeks(on other boards), so while visiting with Dr. Walsh yesterday, I asked him about it.

I will do my best to explain all that he told me (I did take notes).

Background information:
Sperm are produced in the testicles. This is true of all male mammals. In sugar gliders, the testicles are housed in what we refer to as the POM or pom-pom.

After production, sperm travels into the epididymis where it is stored and matures.
I am not sure how long sugar glider sperm can live in these conditions. Most sperm for mammals lives about 20 days, but we know that the sperm of a bull is viable in the epididymis for 60 days (at least us Texans know, LOL). So, somewhere between 20 and 60 days sperm can live in this little space. Once the sperm leaves this space (i.e. once ejaculated or otherwise expelled), the sperm can only live 72 hours maximum, but studies have shown that most sperm are no longer viable after 36 hours or so.

So, having said that, what does that mean for sugar glider neuters and pregnancy afterward?

Dr. Walsh tells me that in a properly completed sugar glider neuter (whether pom on OR off), both the testicles AND the epididymis are removed.

Since the epididymis is removed, there are no sperm to be used for impregnating.

I then asked him about a study conducted back in 1980 by Pholpramool and Sornpaisarn (1980). They castrated 21 male rats and found that for two days after castration, fertility in these castrated rats was normal. After the second day fertility started to drop quickly, and by the eighth day after castration all the rats iwere sterile.
So, that begs the question: To play it safe, should we separate for a week?

Dr. Walsh's answer was No. For several reasons:
1) The reason stated above about the epididymis and testicles both being removed
2) IF any sperm are stored elsewhere in the body and not removed with neutering, they would only live at MOST 3 days.
3) Most males will not even try to mate within 48 hours of neuter.
4) History and incidence of sugar glider impregnation after neuter is very small.



In short, he says that he can think of no good reason to recommend separating a male from his family for 30 days or 14 days after a neuter. He can't even think of a good reason to separate for even 7 days. Given the collective experience of all of his sugar glider clientel, he does not see any value in separating for more than two nights (for healing).


My person experience in roughly 100 neuters is that I have always returned the guys to their cage with their family (and their normal lives) the night of the neuter (provided there are no complications) and I have never had a female turn up pregnant after the neuter.


So, there you have one vet's opinion and an explanation to justify it.
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#1153145 - 07/28/11 09:10 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
EXCELLENT information. Thanks so much, Val!!!!!!
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#1153161 - 07/28/11 09:38 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
Very good info, thank you Val. thumb
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Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1310477 - 12/06/12 06:23 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
JustinP Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Illinois, USA
hey gizmo i have to ask about your signature, whats it mean

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#1311033 - 12/08/12 07:10 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Drea Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1637
Loc: New York
This was a great thread Shelly, Val, Aimee and all involved!
It was super informative!
Thanks for a great read and some amazing information.
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#1324937 - 02/05/13 05:13 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Imbrium Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas
good to know that it's just a myth that they can impregnate a female post-neuter! when I first read that, I assumed it was true, as my only previous knowledge regarding neutering was bunny-related - a male rabbit can remain fertile for as long as 6-8 weeks after a neuter, so it seemed probable to me that a glider could remain fertile for two weeks.
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http://www.hurricanesleucisticfriends.com

Proud mommy to:

:grey: Hurricane
:leu: Lemmy
:wfb: Tabitha

and two bunnies - Nala (lionhead) and Gaz (Holland lop)

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#1325149 - 02/05/13 06:42 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: Imbrium]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Imbrium
a male rabbit can remain fertile for as long as 6-8 weeks after a neuter


I can't say for certain that isn't true. I have raised livestock and none can impregnate after a successful neuter. How can a rabbit? Once the testicles with the sperm is removed, there is nothing there to impregnate.

LOL - sorry this is totally off topic for sugar gliders.
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#1325154 - 02/05/13 06:57 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
StowawayGliders Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 738
Loc: Columbia, TN
I know of a case in humans where a man got snipped and 10 months later, they had a daughter. I would only think that post neuter pregnancy could occur if the neuter was unsuccessful or a stasis baby.


Edited by kb314 (02/05/13 07:00 PM)
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#1325169 - 02/05/13 08:09 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11939
Loc: Wisconsin
With the human male the tubes that carry the sperm are cut and tied off. They can and have been known to grow back together.

A former boyfriend of mine can attest to that, he now has a 1 year old when he is going to be 47 this year.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1325237 - 02/05/13 09:57 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Imbrium Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Originally Posted By: Imbrium
a male rabbit can remain fertile for as long as 6-8 weeks after a neuter


I can't say for certain that isn't true. I have raised livestock and none can impregnate after a successful neuter. How can a rabbit? Once the testicles with the sperm is removed, there is nothing there to impregnate.

LOL - sorry this is totally off topic for sugar gliders.


I honestly have no idea... and it's not necessarily 6-8 weeks - that number is purposely inflated as a precaution, like how we tell people looking into buying a glider that "they can live up to 15 years" - most don't, but it's a possibility we want people to be prepared for when they commit to gliders. 6-8 weeks is the absolute maximum before you can be 100% sure the male rabbit is sterile. they're definitely still fertile post-neuter, though; most often only for about a month, I think, but occasionally longer. bunnies are induced ovulators and can mate in a matter of seconds; if someone houses a male that was neutered within the last month with an unspayed, sexually mature female, pregnancy is a very common outcome (and the date the female kindles often doesn't line up with her getting impregnated within a few days of the neuter).

you're actually never supposed to put two bunnies that have reached sexual maturity together unless BOTH are fixed because if even one of the two is hormonal, it can lead to vicious fighting... but it's a far too common rookie mistake to think "I can just neuter the male and then it's ok for them to be together"... then the person finds their way to the forum after discovering that they've had an "oops" litter despite the neuter surgery. other times, it happens because the male got neutered ahead of the female due to her not being old enough for a spay surgery yet... then she reaches sexual maturity within that window where the male can potentially still be fertile. (males can be neutered as soon as their testicles descend, typically around 3 mos of age; females need to be 4-6 mos old to get spayed depending on their weight and the preferences of the vet)
_________________________
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http://www.hurricanesleucisticfriends.com

Proud mommy to:

:grey: Hurricane
:leu: Lemmy
:wfb: Tabitha

and two bunnies - Nala (lionhead) and Gaz (Holland lop)

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#1325238 - 02/05/13 09:59 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Thanks for the info, but let's bring this back to the topic of sugar gliders. wink
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#1325248 - 02/05/13 10:05 PM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
Imbrium Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas
np, sorry for going a little bit off-topic there, hehe... it's interesting the differences from one species to the next and how some species have pretty unique reproductive abilities. bunnies are the only animal I know of that can remain fertile so long post-neuter (females also have two uterine "horns" so can have two different pregnancies going at once)... and I'd never heard of embryonic stasis before I started researching gliders.
_________________________
Jennifer

http://www.hurricanesleucisticfriends.com

Proud mommy to:

:grey: Hurricane
:leu: Lemmy
:wfb: Tabitha

and two bunnies - Nala (lionhead) and Gaz (Holland lop)

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#1325357 - 02/06/13 10:07 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
I know I've mentioned it somewhere on GC before, but I brought this up with my vet and he said that it's not possible. He has never seen a verifiable case of this happening. He said that he believes that more often than not, the females are holding a joey in stasis rather than the male actually having leftover "bullets in the gun" so to speak. Simply put, he just doesn't believe males can impregnate a female post neuter.

Prior to asking him about things, I used to keep neutered males separate for a few days to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. He told me that really wasn't necessary and that I would be fine to put my boys right back in with family.
_________________________
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#1325366 - 02/06/13 10:24 AM Re: Impregnating after Neuter [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
:agreed:
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Shelly

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