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#1046016 - 12/24/10 10:12 PM Bonding with Button, Not so easy...
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
Shes so stubborn. She crabs non stop! Ive left her alone for a week., only handled her when I absolutely HAD to. Ive carried the pouch around and If I make too swift of a movement, crab..... open the pouch... crab. Ive tried treats of all sorts, licky treats of all sorts and she wont eat or lick any of them. the only thing she will lick off of me is HPW, and after me dipping like twice....... more crabbing and lunging.She sleeps in her pouch most of the time, but the past few mornings I wake up and see her laying in her barrel of monkeys, with all the plastic monkeys! She hasnt been eating too much, I noticed last night she ate more than the two days before. The vet says shes just stressed, and I understand that. I just dont know what to do with bonding with her when I cant give her anything to help the process. Anyone have any ideas or tips, or had a glider at some point like this? I would really appreciate the advice!!

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#1046030 - 12/24/10 11:23 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Tobi Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/02/10
Posts: 682
Loc: Southern Oregon, United States
I had a glider very similar. I found that sitting by the cage helped a lot, and making sure everything smelled like me, every toy and pouch and doing scent blankets. You also just gotta persevere. Keep trying and holding them in pouch and tent time often helps. It took a while but eventually she would crab less and less and then eventually calmed, she was always a little touchy but some gliders are just different!


Edited by Tobi (12/24/10 11:37 PM)
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#1046043 - 12/25/10 12:16 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
aaronandamanda Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 225
Loc: Ohio, USA
This may sound quite silly, but ... Tink did the same thing when we first got her, so to show her that I wasn't afraid of her and that she shouldnt be afraid of me, I would sit with my hand in the cage so that she could choose when to come near and when to stay away. There were many days where my arm would fall asleep lol and boy would she crab .. but as soon as she saw that she wasn't scaring me off, she'd stop and just run around the cage. I would put a fleece blanket around my shoulder and opening of the cage so she wouldn't get out, she eventually would creep up to my hand, smell it, and jump back to see what I would do .. in the end she started walking right into my hand. Like I said, may sound silly, but it ended up working for her and she came from a bad environment where she had never been handled at all.
Best of luck with Button. I know its frustrating but you already know the wonderful rewards of perseverance with your Stitch .. smile and you'll have that with Button I am sure!
_________________________
~*Amanda*~
Proud parent of Tinkerbell :grey: and Nemo :grey: who bring Aaron and I much joy, laughter, and happiness!
They both came to me at times when I needed them most (and I didn't even know it) .. now I get to spend the rest of their lives repaying them .. heart

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#1046141 - 12/25/10 09:04 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
IslandGliders Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/29/10
Posts: 4182
Loc: Maine
You've given her a week to settle in, so my advice is that now you need to take the iniative and start handling her. If you prolong it indefinitely because she's crabbing/lunging, she will keep you away indefinitely. tounge

Don't be scared of her "big bad glider" routine. Glider bites are more startling than painful.

Get comfy on the couch with the bonding pouch in your lap. If you are watching TV you will move more slowly and be more patient. Talk gently to her and open the pouch and slide your hand in a bit. If she grabs a lot or lunges, stop where you are, but don't retreat. She will eventually quiet down. If she doesn't, that was enough for that day. But keep your hand in there for a while.

Work up to sliding your hand more into the bonding pouch, then next to her, then petting her, then sliding your hand under her and holding her while she sleeps.

I know it's slow going, but you will make progress, and soon you will look back and be able to see how far she's come. My new boy is scared of his own shadow but I am showing him there is nothing to be afraid of, and he has made amazing progress in just the ten days that I've had him. He's gone from crabbing, lunging, and "fear pooping" when I open the pouch to blinking up at me with sweet little eyes, like "Where's my treat?" We even have some totally crab-free days now and then! If I had let him set the pace, we'd still be frightened of each other!

Good luck!

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#1046167 - 12/25/10 10:26 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12066
Loc: Wisconsin
I had a little one come through that was like that. I put her in a bonding pouch while I was watching TV and just massaged slow circles on her body through the pouch. With in a week I could just pick her up out of the pouch without using a piece of fleece.

Good Luck,
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Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
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#1046299 - 12/25/10 09:29 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


When she crabs, cup her with your hand and press her gently to you, and hum "Silent Night" or something else slow and low. The comforting will help a lot. Peppermint and Milano were afraid of a sweetnlow packet tearing Saturday morning but by Sunday morning were fine with a chip back being shaken next to them.

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#1046347 - 12/25/10 10:49 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
I've tried everything That. has been stated. cept keeping my arm in the cage: ) ill rub the outside of her pouch, cup her in my hand ocassionally, and I hummed to her last night. she will always calm down a little bit, but jist revert back. I just need to keep with it, I'm just not seeing any progression. stitch needs a buddy badly,, I just hope she can wait long enough.
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1046363 - 12/26/10 12:49 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: xSwtxSugaX
I just need to keep with it, I'm just not seeing any progression. stitch needs a buddy badly,, I just hope she can wait long enough.


You just answered yourself. wink thumb

You are doing great, don't at any point start doubting yourself, or feel you are fighting a losing battle. Keep with what you are doing so diligently, it will pay off.

Remember that they can sense whatever you feel, and they WILL act accordingly. Clever little ones, so keep your chin up and be persistent in your success. thumb
_________________________
Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1046411 - 12/26/10 04:40 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
1daddyglider1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 770
Loc: Lecanto Florida
Are you doing all three of the things at once? What did you do just before she "reverts back". From being calm to crabbing and lunging.
I would stop that part that sets her off on crabbing, until a later time. Just do one thing that relaxes her and stick with that. Then in a couple of days try rubbing her a little bit then stop and go back to a slight cuddly pressure or cupping her through the pouch.
If singing or talking gets her rilied up and she won't calm down then don't talk for now. I have had to take this approach before if my voice scares them, until they are more calm and comfortable while in the pouch...
Art

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#1046412 - 12/26/10 06:20 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
I don't think she meant she did all 3 things at once, I think she meant she did try each of the techniques. I am in agreement with Art regarding to try to see what it is that is upsetting her. work with what works, if that makes sense.

I personally think you are being a bit anxious with the bonding and she can feel exactly that. Time and perseverance. thumb
_________________________
Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1046431 - 12/26/10 08:26 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Yep, I agree...most times, WE want to bond with them quicker than they do and it only works against us. Take your time...patience is key and in the end, it'll pay off, it just might take longer than what you're hoping.
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1046644 - 12/26/10 03:52 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
lol No, I dont all three at once. I can tell you what exactly shes crabbing about. lol everything. My voice, my face, movement.

If I open her pouch and just look at her she crabs

If I put my hand in the pouch she crabs and lunges and bites

If I just carry the pouch she crabs with certain movement, so Ill hold her through the pouch firmly, she usually will calm down, but crab again if there is certain movement.

I know its a bit much, and I dont want the bonding to be like done today, I understand that wont happen, but I would like to know what I can do to calm her down. Or find something that she likes. Everything I do is wrong. If I find something she likes opposed to what she isnt liking, (cause she isnt liking anything I do) then I can go from there. If that makes any sense.
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1046651 - 12/26/10 04:03 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
Get back to basics with her. She is obviously very scared. I would start with baby steps again, and only sit next to her cage, watch her play and talk in a soft voice next to her cage. Then when she is alright with that, I would start to offer licky treats, only rest your hand momentarily in the cage door, let her come to you. When she is accustomed to that, you can start to pet her through the pouch she sleeps in, etc.''

Most important now is to go back to basics with her, or you will lose even more trust. And relax, she can sense what you feel and anticipate. hug2
_________________________
Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1046655 - 12/26/10 04:05 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
Thank you for understanding smile Back to basics it is then. lol
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1046697 - 12/26/10 06:31 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: xSwtxSugaX
lol No, I dont all three at once. I can tell you what exactly shes crabbing about. lol everything. My voice, my face, movement.

If I open her pouch and just look at her she crabs

If I put my hand in the pouch she crabs and lunges and bites

If I just carry the pouch she crabs with certain movement, so Ill hold her through the pouch firmly, she usually will calm down, but crab again if there is certain movement.

I know its a bit much, and I dont want the bonding to be like done today, I understand that wont happen, but I would like to know what I can do to calm her down. Or find something that she likes. Everything I do is wrong. If I find something she likes opposed to what she isnt liking, (cause she isnt liking anything I do) then I can go from there. If that makes any sense.


Do that! It is working! When you say she crabs at movement, what movement is it? Does your pouch hang just around your neck, or is it strapped around your waist as well? If you lean over, can it swing away from your body? You are making progress! You are already learning her likes and dislikes, and what the "triggers" are! That is really really good for you both!

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#1046749 - 12/26/10 08:30 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
It does help, with a bonding pouch, to put it inside your shirt or between a shirt and sweatshirt...this way it doesn't swing or make odd movements.....and it's closer to your body. You can put the window towards you so she can smell you. smile
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1046814 - 12/27/10 01:33 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
I carry her around in the pouch u made her aimee. Usually if Im just sitting on the couch ill lay the pouch on my stomach or under my shirt. If I have to reach to grab something or move for my laptop she will crab, but shes always close to my body. I just put my hand on her through the pouch and slightly push down on her and she will slowly stop. but it seems she doesnt like to see my face or me open the pouch. and she gets used to my voice, but occasionally if I ave to cough or sneeze she doesnt like that too much. lol Ill just continue with that until she gets used to that and then I guess have her get used to my hands. Im not handling either stitch or button at the moment, same with the boyfriend, considering were both sick. I feel bad leaving them in there cage right now, but I dont have the energy and dont wanna give them anything if they can possibly catch it. We did take stitch out with us on our family runs for christmas in her neww pouch hoodie i got my bf. Shhe did awesome. She would pop her head out and meet everyone! So cute. I just hope button can get there someday
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1046856 - 12/27/10 07:22 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
1daddyglider1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 770
Loc: Lecanto Florida
Before you move do you try a slight pressure or cupping her so the movement is less? When you move she maybe getting rolled while in the pouch and it startles her???

You were doing three things at once or during a bonding period. Do just one thing like hold your hand over her while sitting STILL and watch t.v. Pet with one finger at first for one or two strokes. STOP and hold hand over her. Say one word then Stop.

The idea is a little bit of contact or recognition noise that doesn't build her up to a crabbing and lunging frenzy.

But I would first just sit with your hand over her or on the pouch so she can smell and/or feel your hand(with NO movement.

When you open the pouch to look at her you move it first, does she crab before she sees your face or after she looks up at you. It maybe just the bright light or it maybe your face.

Above post you said you carry her around in the pouch that Aimee made you. To me it seems you are doing too many things.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything it is what I am reading is that your girl is scared and she is being confused.

I would try my hardest to get through one bonding period or session with no crabbing or lunging, to build your confidence and hers.

Even if you only sit down, place your hand on the pouch and don't move, talk, sneeze, for a couple of hours. It makes me/you feel great not to scare her and feel like(which it would be) you have made a tiny baby step with her.

At night(I think you posted) she will take a treat from you while in cage, if so do it 3-5 times a night, or go talk to her if she is up and about.

When you had your hand in the pouch with her: did she crab and lunge if you held your hand still or was it when you moved your hand or when you went to put your hand in with her. If you have a wide pouch and slide your hand in the opposite side away from her, unless you make a movement or the muscles tighten in your hand(I have had a suggie react to this) they usually won't strike at you. At least in my experience.

If you have to sneeze or cough apply the comforting pressure to her before the event or hold pouch away from your body as coughing makes your body jerky. I also cough alot. lol

One other thing to try is to get your tame suggie Stich to help you. If he will stay on you at night or let Button she him interacting with you and see will learn from watching him interact with you.

Hope you feel better.
Art

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#1046876 - 12/27/10 08:17 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
Out of the three things I tried with her the one thing I did most would be taking her out of her cage in her pouch, taking her downstairs and sitting on the couch. I always rest my hand on her and either rub lightly or cup her through the pouch, but if im doing something with my hands she goes into my shirt so she doesnt move around. And when I sneeze or cough I usually do add pressure so not to startle her. she will usually still crab. If I do open the pouch, she will look up at me and crab, and sometimes crab right when I open it. If I do slip my hand in usually I just place it in the top of the pouch not near her and she goes crazy. Thats when I first started and would cup her. She would usually quiet down but she would move around under my hand and nip at me. I stopped that and continued with just holding her through the pouch. She wont take treats from me. The only thing she will lick off me is hpw and she will only do it once or twice before turning around and crabbing and trying to get away from me so I will stop and continue actions through the pouch.

Dont worry I dont take any advice as being mean. smile

We did have stitch out while I was holding button once and I slightly opened the pouch. Stitch seems very happy with her but she does not like stitch. She crabs and will lunge at her if she gets to close. I have swapped pouches and toys. Stitch plays and smells all the toys ive switched so she seems pretty excited. My mom heard some barking in my room as well, we think it was stitch. Im thinking if I get button bonded she will take stitch better. Cause right now I think shes just too scared.
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1046880 - 12/27/10 08:27 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Just an idea. Before my monkeys were bra babies, I ordered a Zip Around pouch from Ann (Wildernest) at Wildernest Creations. Teeka was a bit pouch protective and like Button, was scared of my hand coming from the top. The Zip Around has a double zipper that meets and the zipper runs on three sides of the pouch rather than just on the top, thus allowing you to have it open on one side or the other OR the top. So, you could sit with Button and have it open on the side instead. dunno

Check out her site, www.wildernestcreations.com and if you don't see what you're looking for, just shoot her an email or a PM here on GC. Her stuff is awesome!

_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1047057 - 12/27/10 03:24 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
Which pouch are u speaking of? I went to her site and cant find it. Im at work also, so Im having touble with people walking in tounge Im busy trying to spoil my babies people! Your haircut can wait!!! smile
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1047059 - 12/27/10 03:26 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
http://www.wildernestcreations.com/bonding_pouches_final.html
The "boxey bags" which are the ones in the first and second picture on this page.
_________________________
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wave Sari

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#1047721 - 12/29/10 02:04 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy...
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
So if anyone has read my latest posts you would know about Button and her crabby butt. lol She crabs alllll the time. ANytime Im near really. Not specifically just me, really anyone. But tonight after I got out of the shower I checked in on her and she was curled up in her monkey barrel. I put my hand in her cage and she crabbed for a millasecond before sniffing me. She crawled out of her barrel and stayed quiet. any time i would move my hand to her she would just smell it. no crabbing. I use axe body wash (I know im a girl, but I like how it feels tingly smile ) Its not a strong scented one, but I just find it interesting how it made her calm down. Maybe I need to start washing my hands with it!! roflmao
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1047731 - 12/29/10 02:50 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
Well, gliders are very smell oriented and if it works, why not?

You can let AXE body wash know whatever they are using in their product, girls will cue for it. roflmao :fall: roflmao
_________________________
Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1047780 - 12/29/10 09:48 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
Ha ha, we can make our own commercial. smile
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1047856 - 12/29/10 12:43 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
so i decided to trying washing my hands with my body wash. shes letting me pet her in her pouch even cup her without biting me. shes only crabbing if i move my hand away or she sees my face. I guess thats somewhat of an improvement smile
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1047859 - 12/29/10 12:51 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
clap sounds good. Axe it is then, huh? laugh You should let your guests and vet wash up with Axe before they come near her. Strange little one. tounge
_________________________
Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1047870 - 12/29/10 01:16 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
anw22 Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 08/08/10
Posts: 278
Loc: mansfield,ohio
haha thats funny

the hand soap we have at home makes my guys want to eat me lol

its vanilla honey or something so i have to be careful not to wash my hands right before i take them out or they think i am trying to give them a treat

they never bite hard but they try to grab and then run away with my fingers and get very frustrates they cant go anywhere lol

at least you found something she likes lol

AXE attracts girls and gliders lol
_________________________
:roflmao: Ashley :roflmao:


mom to two suggies: brutus :grey: and beanie :grey: (AKA Beans)brought home August 4, 2010

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#1047872 - 12/29/10 01:24 PM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
lol!! I love this! My boyfriend stuck his hand in her pouch and she would not stop having a fit, just goes to show you that the commercials are right!!
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1049536 - 01/02/11 07:16 AM Re: Bonding with Button, Not so easy... [Re: xSwtxSugaX]
1daddyglider1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 770
Loc: Lecanto Florida
Make any progress with Button. If she is more comfortable with your boy friend and you are a little scared or unsure, you may want him to button first then include you in after Button calms down.
Just a suggestion.
Art

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