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#10467 - 10/12/03 03:47 AM Diet doubts
Anonymous
Unregistered


A few weeks ago, someone posted the question: Why would anyone use Pricilla's Exotic Sugar Glider diet? I'm afraid to post this, but will respond for what I might learn, We're using Pricilla's Exotic Sugar Glider diet. No problems so far. The boys seem very healthy. Why are we using it? The little fuzzbutts won't eat BML. We tried icing, more blending, different order of mixing, withdrawal of other food, Heinz vs. Gerber, and many other suggestions from GliderCENTRAL helpers. Nothing worked. Tried Brisky's and Zookeeper's with no sustained success. We continued to read many posts and suggestions on GliderCENTRAL, and quite frankly began to feel very guilty that we were delinquent owners for not using BML, as well as feeling afraid that we might hurt the boys. Then we tried Pricilla's diet. They love it. Maybe on paper it's not as good as BML, (although I don't see enormous differences), I just don't know. But when comparing the nutritional intake from BML, most of which goes in the trash can, to Pricilla's, most of which goes in the glider, Pricilla's wins with our gliders. No contest. The board is an outstanding resource, and its value is created in the many helpful people who donate experience, knowledge and time to improve the collective glider IQ. Clearly the prevailing opinion is that BML is the best, and for some owners, the only rational choice. But I have to admit that I struggle sometimes with comments placed here and conclusions drawn. Here's why:

1. I've seen people spend incredible time and energy making the BML just right, down to every last milligram of everything, then lose me in practices such as some use bugs and some don't. Some feed pinkies, others gut loaded crickets, some mealies, and some no bugs at all. No one seems to count the nutritional content of the bugs if they use them. Also there are different fruits and veggies. Variation galore. Diversity is good, actually essential. But clearly not all "BML-fed" gliders are fed the exact same thing. Healthy to be sure, but the diets we use are not an exact science.

2. Also in nature, there is a tendency for cravings of things deficient in the body, and the intestine can enhance absorption of that which is short supply. I have confidence in the animal's homeostatic mechanisms to self-regulate their physiology to a degree. Obviously an animal in captivity has to have the proper food placed before it. I have less confidence in my own ability to put the right things on the plate, not from lack of desire, but out of ignorance.

3. Some foods in these "balanced diets" are eaten while others are passed over. What the gliders take in and retain is the real issue. I can put a great meal plan on the plate, but if they eat what they like and leave what they don't, I didn't get the great nutrition in them. So it was with BML. My trash can has great nutrition. The nutritional analysis would seem to make more sense to me if someone actually did the accounting of what was left on the plate and subtracted it from the original evening offering. Keep track of everything that they actually eat. I'm talking total content of every milligram of every bug, each and every day, and for each individual glider.

4. Along the same line, does anyone separate your gliders at mealtime? As a social animal they should remain in their colony. But I've often wondered which one of the boys ate what in the middle of the night. Maybe Mario gobbled more of the phosphorus load, while Luigi went for the calcium rich foods. Same question for protein. Ditto for the sweets. Who ate what? I clearly have not assured that each one got what he individually needed. In the wild might one glider prefer certain saps, while another likes bugs better?

5. The effort of comparing other diets to BML to evaluate content or nutritional value is an interesting endeavor. No glider in the wild eats BML. Shouldn't we compare other proposed diets to wild diets? Do gliders in Australia eat the same nutrients in the same amounts as those in Indonesia? Does one colony in the wild eat the same stuff that another colony 200 miles away eats where the terrain and foliage are different? Is there not room in Gliderdom for the same variation that lets Italians eat pasta, Irishmen eat potatoes, and Chinese eat rice without necessarily causing harm? The issue is the quantity and quality of nutrition in the noodles, spuds and rice. These last two points make it hard for me to be so sure of myself when criticizing anyone's diet.

6. In creating diets, we are trying to achieve a specific amount of certain nutrients and vitamins. How do we propose to know the required daily values for vitamins and minerals in all species? We have expert opinion and educated guesses and not enough true science proven by randomized, prospective, double blinded, controlled trials. From where do these targets herald? It seems the only reasonable way to set targets is to measure the vitamin, mineral and nutrient content of a wild diet and try to emulate it. That diet is truly proven. It got gliders here over the millennia. I'm not only concerned about what we don't know in Pricilla's diet, but also about the limiting assumptions we make concerning what we think is correct. People were once sure the world was flat and that low-fat diets were good for humans.

7. By the way, this post is not in any way intended to be a BML flame. Because the threads on GliderCENTRAL are so pro-BML, and because most everybody accepts BML as the gold standard diet, I am just directing the many questions I have toward BML. I have great respect for the work that has led to BML. If the Super Mario Brothers would eat BML, I'm there. But as mentioned above, Pricilla's diet at least gets eaten.

8. And one last observation, why would one care whether the label says Reptile vitamins or Mammalian vitamins? Isn't the issue the number of milligrams of a particular ingredient present, and is that number of milligrams adequate for the critter in question? And how do I measure BML against Pricilla's or Brisky's if I don't know what the goal should be. My biggest source of frustration is not knowing what is the true Minimum Daily Requirement. The human MDR's are pretty weak in my opinion, despite lots of research. Has anyone ever analyzed the content of the various vitamins in the wild diet?

Lots of questions, looking for answers, perhaps a different opinion?

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#10468 - 10/12/03 07:32 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is an ongoing controversy. I think the exotic diet is a great one. Mine already eat the suncoast diet tho with much success so I have no need to switch. Three of mine won't eat BML and three will, but all eat Suncoast <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as attacking BML though I wouldn't recommend doing that. Many here use it and have for years with much success just like you have success with the exotic diet.

We are not here to bash other diets, just to make healthy happy gliders <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#10469 - 10/12/03 08:41 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


We tried something different with our BML last night, and it worked in at least 6 of the 8 cages. We added the little chicken dices by beechnut. We just mixed them in. Now I know this may throw off the balance of the bml, but if they aren't eating it, they aren't getting the vitamins. Having the additional chicken caused them to pick it out, getting a lot more BML than usual, and half of the cages actually finished the BML. So, please don't flame me. I know the ration is thrown off a bit, but a little extra protein wouldn't hurt too much, I would think, and at least they got most of the vitamins.

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#10470 - 10/12/03 10:29 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Thank you for your opinion and post! I don't feel anyone here is bashing the BML diet though, just stating their experience <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

For the most part, I believe the only concern with the Exotic diet is being unable to see the breakdown of the actual ingredients for analysis. Previously, it was undisclosed at the time due to patent proceedings.
Personally, I do not like switching diets too often for my glider's own sake. This is my own opinion, nothing more. Should I choose to switch one day, I just want to be very sure what they are getting, and then I can make my own judgement for my own glider's. That's the important thing here, we are able to choose in the end what we feed our sugar baby's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately, the other questions you have asked, I am not able to scientifcally breakdown for you, but I am sure other's that are able to do that (and be understood <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), will help you!

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
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Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#10472 - 10/12/03 11:36 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No bashing here just some genuine concern for glider health. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Anyway, I think that you are very much overly concerned about things here. I have to agree with you for going with the diet that your gliders will eat. As long as it has the nutrients that will keep the gliders healthy. I started out feeding my gliders a pellet diet from exotic nutrition that was Eucalyptus based. My gliders didn't like it but I didn't realize it right away. Then I switched to Glider Grub and they love it. Both are pellet diets that I supplement with fruits, veggies, and vitamins and calcium. My gliders are just as healthy as one who puts a lot of time and effort into making the BML. I haven't ever used BML. I have nothing against that diet or any other diet that anyone uses. However, as long as your gliders eat well and are healthy I don't think you need to worry about it as much as you are. Good work trying to give the best to your gliders and keep looking for what is best but don't worry about it so much. You'll give yourself a hernia doing so much worrying. Good luck!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Jen

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#10473 - 10/12/03 12:55 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with you 100%, if a certain diet works for your gliders, use it, Why witch and risk loosing the nutrients they are now getting. Tastes vary and so do diets!

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#10474 - 10/12/03 01:01 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41153
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
[:"blue"]For anyone who has been on this board for any length of time, you know that the most heated and passionate discussions are the diet issue.

Over the years, the one thing desparately needed was a controlled diet study which is now being done by the GRF. It is long overdue, and we are all anxiously awaiting the results.

Gliders are all so very different in their dietary likes and dislikes that they will absolutely drive their humans crazy trying to find out what balanced diet they will eat.

As long as you have done your research and feel you have found a balanced diet which will give your glider the nutrition needed, you should feel confident you are doing the best you can.

The one thing we do know for sure where diets are concerned is that if your glider won't eat it, it certainly isn't doing any good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> [/]
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#10475 - 10/12/03 01:37 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"apple"]Hello schlep![/][:"teal"] (FYI to other members...you may wish to take note of schlep's occupation before jumping to unfounded conclusions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />) I for one believe that you've made some very reasonable, compelling, and valid points regarding diets. BML is the diet I'm currently using, but I too have many reasons to believe that it, along with many other diets available, are certainly not as precise and balanced as many here might wish to believe. [/][:"red"]IF[/][:"teal"], as you so eloquently pointed out, the precise amounts ingested, and the allowable variations were figured with much more intense measurement and scrutiny-(i.e.-figuring the [/][:"red"] exact[/][:"teal"] ratio of the meal by meal intake of the [/][:"red"]intended[/][:"teal"] mineral & vitamin amounts, Ca:P ratio balance maintained within strict parameters, and [/][:"red"] every[/][:"teal"] bug, pinkie, treat, etc. were figured to the inth degree for [/][:"red"]each[/][:"teal"] individual glider...et al..you detailed it quite well!), then diets could be compared or analyzed more realistically, for sure! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> The limited research being done is wonderful and beneficial, but as for scientifically tested and proven to a finite degree, I agree, it's just not been done and equally as important, would likely prove quite intensive and difficult to keep [/][:"red"] precise[/][:"teal"] and [/][:"red"]accurate[/][:"teal"], given the wide variations!

I've previously brought up some of the points you detailed above in your post, but have likewise met with opposition, oft times lacking the proper factual and scientific back-up. I think you said it best with your first notation above:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]1. I've seen people spend incredible time and energy making the BML just right, down to every last milligram of everything, then lose me in practices such as some use bugs and some don't. Some feed pinkies, others gut loaded crickets, some mealies, and some no bugs at all. No one seems to count the nutritional content of the bugs if they use them. Also there are different fruits and veggies. Variation galore. Diversity is good, actually essential. But clearly not all "BML-fed" gliders are fed the exact same thing. Healthy to be sure, but [/][:"champagne"]the diets we use are not an exact science.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/][:"teal"]

Quite right!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I also agree with your assessment as stated here:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]We have expert opinion and educated guesses and not enough true science proven by randomized, prospective, double blinded, controlled trials. From where do these targets herald? It seems the only reasonable way to set targets is to measure the vitamin, mineral and nutrient content of a wild diet and try to emulate it. That diet is truly proven.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/][:"teal"]

While I agree with your overall assessment, I would defend those who work hard to get these much needed evaluations by pointing out the perhaps obvious lack of funds needed to get satisfactory end results from such costly studies! The study referenced in this thread will certainly prove helpful, but I'm not certain it will rival the types of studies necessary to obtain such definitive findings currently lacking with respect to captive glider nutritional needs!-(I'm certainly not minimizing it's importance however!) Another point that deserves addressing, you are quite correct that in theory, matching a species' needs to it's natural diet [/][:"red"]IS[/][:"teal"] the proper target for which to aim, it's not quite as cut and dry when it comes to many species, gliders included. Their captive vs. "wild" needs vary widely. Captive lives obviously entail a much different routine with respect to foraging, types of prey or plants sought, time and distance traveled to engage in foraging, etc. Therefore, you are right about trying to "emulate" this natural diet theoretically, but lacking the components of the wild diets necessitates finding or developing a "best case" alternative. I agree wholeheartedly with your point regarding a species' ability to somewhat "self determine" what is needed by the body and to seek out said items. There is an abundant amount of scientific evidence to support this with numerous species.-(Macaws who feed on clay to obtain needed minerals, ungulates drawn to salt licks, etc.) Therefore, you're very astute in pointing out that we, as caretakers of these little marsupials, must establish what are the best possible dietary needs and more importantly, what comes closest to meeting these needs with respect to proper nutritional levels of life sustaining minerals, vitamins, proteins, Ca:P balance, etc. I too would like to find a wider consensus of professional animal nutritionists, zoologists, geneticists, and the like, to come to some scientifically based and researched findings that support a less debated and varied array of dietary "recommendations".

Kudos to you for pointing out what I once [/][:"apple"] thought[/][:"teal"] was an obvious conclusion with respect to "reptile" vs. "mammalian" vs. "homo sapien" vitamins! You stated:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]And one last observation, why would one care whether the label says Reptile vitamins or Mammalian vitamins? Isn't the issue the number of milligrams of a particular ingredient present, and is that number of milligrams adequate for the critter in question?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"red"]BINGO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />[/][:"teal"] If you take a close look at the composition and NOT the intended specie focus, you'll find that Vitamin A is Vitamin A...Magnesium is Magnesium...I've yet to hear of a specialized reptilian form of calcium that differs from the mammalian form or the human grade form. The importance lies in knowing the product comes from respectable origins, obviously, and the MDR for the species in question is being met! I agree with you on what exactly that MDR would be for a glider at this point!

Soooo Doc...I guess I could have elucidated this in a much more concise fashion, but, suffice to say..I agree with most of your valid and factual points! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let's hope that the future will bring a less debated array of "opinions" on dietary needs for captive P. breviceps and get to the heart of what is scientifically researched and proven to be the [/][:"red"]best captive diet[/][:"teal"] for our little fuzzbutt buddies! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> ( My gliders are telling me to shut up and give them each a Honey Nut Cheerio! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> )[/]

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#10477 - 10/12/03 02:24 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
It is my understanding the results of the research being done on the diets will not be released till next years SGGA.

Priscilla feeds her gliders Glider Nutrition...the one with 42% protein. Along with this pelleted diet she feeds a fruits and vegetables that are chopped up in a food processor with frozen orange juice,oatmeal,applesauce and flax seed. When finished the fruit and veggie mix look like a salad. These fruit and veggies from what I have seen are on the high end of the calcium scale compared to phos. The salad is then frozen. When served it is sprinkled with her vitamins. She told me a chemist and a vet are the ones who came up with the formula. Giant Mealworms are also fed. I beleive Priscilla told me...the ratio to Calcium to Phos was 5:1

There are many good diets out there and no doubt about it. However, when choosing a diet one needs research it and then stick with it. I feel bouncing from one diet to another is not the best choice....and especially if the diet was not researched and considered proven. And to be proven...it has to be fed for three years with several generations of offspring produced.

Now as to the use of Reptile vitamins and Human vitamins...I think some are concerned with the Grade of how they are processed. My thought with this is...reptile vitamins seem to be very safe...at least with the Rep-Cal products. So...with this thought in mind.... vitamin supplements...the milligrams of the vitamin ingrediants need to be visable to compare differances between them.

And yes, we need a study done to determine just exactly what would be considered a good vitamin supplement for a healthy sugar glider as well as for those who reproduce. I am hoping the GRF will do just this.


Edited by Judie (10/12/03 02:53 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#10478 - 10/12/03 02:36 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can ne1 give me a link to a site where i can find a recipe for the Pricilla's Exotic Sugar Glider diet?? I would like to look at the recipe and decide for myself.

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#10479 - 10/12/03 02:42 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Sugar_Mama Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 4321
Loc: Central FL
Here ya go!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
~Rischa~
My Sugar Babies
Photos & Videos

Rest peacefully until I see you at the bridge, Sweet Lillian. gangel Mommy, Daddy, and brother Philip miss you terribly.

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#10480 - 10/12/03 03:10 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Can ne1 give me a link to a site where i can find a recipe for the Pricilla's Exotic Sugar Glider diet?? I would like to look at the recipe and decide for myself.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The link is posted right here in the GC "links" section along with links to many other glider diets.

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#10481 - 10/12/03 03:29 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let's give Priscilla Price the courtesy of spelling her name correctly.

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#10482 - 10/12/03 07:04 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My apologies, Priscilla!

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#10483 - 10/13/03 11:05 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Sue1 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 131
Where do you find Pricilla's diet? I definitely want to check it out. I certainly hope 1200p from "Baby Food" reads your posting. She's feeling like a failure because of what her gliders will eat.

Thanks for the post.

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#10484 - 10/14/03 03:55 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Where do you find Pricilla's diet? I definitely want to check it out. I certainly hope 1200p from "Baby Food" reads your posting. She's feeling like a failure because of what her gliders will eat.

Thanks for the post.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">



Priscilla's Diet

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#10485 - 10/14/03 12:18 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
okay schlep, lets see if I can address each one of your concerns. I will only address the BML however.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
1. I've seen people spend incredible time and energy making the BML just right, down to every last
milligram of everything, then lose me in practices such as some use bugs and some don't. Some feed
pinkies, others gut loaded crickets, some mealies, and some no bugs at all. No one seems to count the
nutritional content of the bugs if they use them. Also there are different fruits and veggies. Variation
galore. Diversity is good, actually essential. But clearly not all "BML-fed" gliders are fed the exact same
thing. Healthy to be sure, but the diets we use are not an exact science.

2. Also in nature, there is a tendency for cravings of things deficient in the body, and the intestine can
enhance absorption of that which is short supply. I have confidence in the animal's homeostatic
mechanisms to self-regulate their physiology to a degree. Obviously an animal in captivity has to have the
proper food placed before it. I have less confidence in my own ability to put the right things on the plate,
not from lack of desire, but out of ignorance.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

this is absolutely correct. If you had noticed in almost all my posts regarding the BML, I say the same thing. do NOT modify it, use it as directed, and go back to basics. Many problems people have with their gliders diet is they are doing many things, modifications that actually affect the balance of the plan, offering far too much of a variety, constantly changing things. Fact is gliders are creatures of habit. They love variety, but too much can overwhelm them, and far too many well meaning people make modifications without taking the "nutritional values" in mind. A lot of people don't take their Natural tastes and instincts into consideration. Some of the biggest things I have noticed that are contradictory to their instincts.
1. feeding during the day (they are nocturnal, they forage for their foods at night)
2. trying to make the food sweeter (most of the things in the wild they eat actually is unpalatable to us humans, the gliders palates are more of a blander taste, (sap, gums, and insects(controversial)they smell of tree bark). and yes I have tasted these items.)
3. Offering too much (their stomachs are only about the size of your thumb nail)
4. Offering too much of a variety (in the wild there choices are very simple, and not as in abundance as what we as humans would consider a smorgasbord.
5. not allocating for normal eating habits (we are not always famished and there are times when we are not as hungry as others)

as for the animals craving things they need, as a general rule that is true, (in the wild they tend to forage on foods not only based on nutritional needs, but also availability) however much like our children, if we offer them candy and cakes and expect them to eat the foods that are healthy, chances are they will eat the unhealthy foods. With the gliders, we have noticed if offered, chicken, corn and fruit juice in abundance, along with healthy foods, they will be more apt to drink the juice eat the chicken and corn, and then if they are hungry, they will eat the healthier foods. so in essence since unlike the wild, since we hand choose their diet we must try to be at least trying to meet their nutritional needs. They body can not compensate for lack of the proper nutrients, if they are not offered.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
3. Some foods in these "balanced diets" are eaten while others are passed over. What the gliders take in
and retain is the real issue. I can put a great meal plan on the plate, but if they eat what they like and
leave what they don't, I didn't get the great nutrition in them. So it was with BML. My trash can has
great nutrition. The nutritional analysis would seem to make more sense to me if someone actually did the
accounting of what was left on the plate and subtracted it from the original evening offering. Keep track
of everything that they actually eat. I'm talking total content of every milligram of every bug, each and
every day, and for each individual glider.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This is true in theory, however just as you would take a group of health conscience people and they may try as they may to stay on lets say a 1200 calorie diet on a day by day basis, there will be fluctuations. just as each persons daily activity also affects how much of a caloric intake is needed on a daily basis. Then you have those with higher metabolisms, those that have problems with certain nutrients.. etc.. the gliders are living in a regulated environment where in the wild they could forage for their needs. In the various seasons, they also eat different staples. more so based again not just on nutritional needs but also availability and activity. In the wild they go into torpor during the cold winter months, where they actually drop their own metabolisms, and sleep more, eat less. But in the wild they prepare for this. (hence the cleavage that is very prominent more so in the fall and winter).
the problem with using the various papers and studies done in the wild is just that, availability, and seasonal. many factors that even we as humans haven't got to a science yet.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
4. Along the same line, does anyone separate your gliders at mealtime? As a social animal they should
remain in their colony. But I've often wondered which one of the boys ate what in the middle of the night.
Maybe Mario gobbled more of the phosphorus load, while Luigi went for the calcium rich foods. Same
question for protein. Ditto for the sweets. Who ate what? I clearly have not assured that each one got
what he individually needed. In the wild might one glider prefer certain saps, while another likes bugs
better?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

again this more of a captive difference and concern, a concern that we have always kept in mind. Originally the leadbeaters diet was designed for 1 tablespoon for 2 gliders, with the addition of the fruits and veggies. We increased this and it is stated on the bml site that there should always be some left over, that way each one in the cage also has access to the same foods. Nutritionally, we can not force feed the gliders, but we can offer them a nutritional sound diet. If the diet is nutritionally sound, their own bodies will pick and choose based on their individual needs. hence why the majority of the nutrients are in the mix of the bml, combined to avoid the risks of picking out just the proteins, and just the certain vits and minerals.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
5. The effort of comparing other diets to BML to evaluate content or nutritional value is an interesting
endeavor. No glider in the wild eats BML. Shouldn't we compare other proposed diets to wild diets? Do
gliders in Australia eat the same nutrients in the same amounts as those in Indonesia? Does one colony in
the wild eat the same stuff that another colony 200 miles away eats where the terrain and foliage are
different? Is there not room in Gliderdom for the same variation that lets Italians eat pasta, Irishmen eat
potatoes, and Chinese eat rice without necessarily causing harm? The issue is the quantity and quality of
nutrition in the noodles, spuds and rice. These last two points make it hard for me to be so sure of myself
when criticizing anyone's diet.

6. In creating diets, we are trying to achieve a specific amount of certain nutrients and vitamins. How do
we propose to know the required daily values for vitamins and minerals in all species? We have expert
opinion and educated guesses and not enough true science proven by randomized, prospective, double
blinded, controlled trials. From where do these targets herald? It seems the only reasonable way to set
targets is to measure the vitamin, mineral and nutrient content of a wild diet and try to emulate it. That
diet is truly proven. It got gliders here over the millennia. I'm not only concerned about what we don't
know in Pricilla's diet, but also about the limiting assumptions we make concerning what we think is
correct. People were once sure the world was flat and that low-fat diets were good for humans.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Understanding the concern here, sadly I have already addressed this many times, however more in defense of those that are out to prove the BML harmful, rather than really wanting to know.
The BML when we first started working with it, we were very limited as to the information and resources available regarding their nutritional needs. so the work in finding a healthy diet was very ,very difficult. The diet in the wild and taken into consideration the varied areas, varied seasons, and the total nutritional values that were already known, not only published, but through many emails and correspondence with many rehabbers, sanctuaries, etc.. the first goal was to get a nutritional breakdown of the varied diets, both in the wild as well as in captivity in Australia, there is little to NO information in the new guinea area where more of our gliders originate from, We had to get a high and low of each nutrient, and see if we couldn't find things here to fall into those highs and lows. This is how it started.. that doesn't mean that is where it stopped. Because now we had those figures for the Australian gliders, but how did they all fit together when we try to make a diet here that is just as nutritional when we don't have access to the natural floras and faunas, thus different nutrient values as well. Then things had to be considered.
1. ambient temperatures
2. reduced activity level
3. foraging activity
4. controlled reduced living space

as an example the gliders in the wild has a higher fat adipose than the gliders in captivity. the reasons are simple, they have cooler nights and falls and winters, they live outside, their foods are limited in supply at times. when we control their temps, they have little to no need for the extra fat for warmth, since we offer them food each night, they don't need the extra storage of nutrients. etc..
so after we get a basic baseline to accommodate the needs in captivity, then we have to look at availability of certain foods. I see people ordering acacia gum, but many of them don't even know what species it is that gliders eat, as they do not eat all of them, and some of them are actually toxic. there are many misconceptions regarding eucalyptus, acacia gums and nectars. Then we have to look at necropsies, illnesses, and structures of gliders on many of the diets, we tried to address the many issues that were prominent at the time. since they haven't been here in the states very long, there really was very little "research" or data collection actually being done by vets or the average owner.
In Australia they don't have many of the problems that we here in the states have faced.
1.aflatoxin
2. calcium deficiency
3. various bacteria's
4. viruses
5.depression
6.lonliness
7. genetic defects caused by line breeding/inbreeding
8. mass breeders

As for the wild vs the gliders in captivity, there really is a huge difference, we can not replicate the wild, lifestyle, environment and diet, however we can do the best we can in trying to offer them a nutritionally balanced diet that accommodates our gliders in captivity here in the states.
I too am concerned with the various diets that the nutritional value can not be compared. The many studies that are needed are quite expensive, but as you had said, they once believe the world was flat, but there was also those that didn't, and who was willing to study and test and be sure of their beliefs.

The glider research is much needed, especially here in the states, the GRF is only touching the cold areas, haven't quite reached the iceberg yet, but that will come with time, people believe that a study or 2 will answer all their concerns, and it will not, the research must continue, and each time a research study is done, we will learn from it, but keep in mind we won't have all the answers for many, many years, but al least it moves us closer to where we need to be. One of the key things about the BML, is that we are not afraid to make changes based on research, The BML is nutritionally balanced (when fed as directed) based on what is known about sugar gliders to date.
everyone who owns a glider should help the grf, in the long run, it is their gliders that will reap the rewards.




</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
8. And one last observation, why would one care whether the label says Reptile vitamins or Mammalian
vitamins? Isn't the issue the number of milligrams of a particular ingredient present, and is that number of
milligrams adequate for the critter in question? And how do I measure BML against Pricilla's or Brisky's if I
don't know what the goal should be. My biggest source of frustration is not knowing what is the true
Minimum Daily Requirement. The human MDR's are pretty weak in my opinion, despite lots of research. Has
anyone ever analyzed the content of the various vitamins in the wild diet?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

up till now I have given facts, what I haven't done is offer very many of my opinions, this paragraph, warrants just that.
granted just as billions and billions of dollars have gone into human research, and there isn't any definitive figures, the same applies with the gliders, however; just as in the human figures, you have highs and lows, example we know that a deficiency of calcium can cause rickets, we also know that a lack of calcium causes hlp. so there really is a basic baseline that has allowed us to witness healing properties, bone density, longer life spans, etc.

Now as to how would compare the various diets when the baseline isn't set, well that isn't where the real problem is. The real problem is in not being able to get the nutritional breakdown of those diets. People ask me all the time what the figures are for the BML, needless to say they have been posted many, many times. what I have NEVER seen is the nutritional breakdown of any of the other diets. so in essence what are you comparing? The BML has been tested to be nutritionally balanced when fed as directed for as much as we know, well, I guess that would be a baseline (depending on how you look at it) but NO other diet has EVER revealed the nutritional breakdown for anyone to compare them. So the start would be with the diet you are using, hypothetically, lets say I was to have all of the figures needed. and you wanted them , I sent them to you, what would you do with them? compare them to the diet you are using? get those figures first. IF you are able to, this has been one of the biggest problems with us trying to figure out healthy alternatives to the owners whose gliders will not eat the BML. We know there are gliders out there that won't eat it, so when we are asked for healthy alternatives, where do we send people? Do we send them on a hope and a prayer that the diet they will be using is "hopefully" nutritionally balanced? Until I can see for myself that a diet is healthy, I will never recommend it. everyoneís glider is as important to me as they are to them.

There are many diets out there, some may be healthy, others are obviously not, without nutritional breakdown, we can't even make a remotely educated decision. This is where I say that people play Russian roulette with their glider's life. OFTEN turned around to mean "your gliders will die if not on BML" that is NOT the case, all I know is that the BML is healthy, but I also know that nutritionally it is sound, it has been tested and falls within the various baselines. I know the bml is a healthy choice. But I can not say the same about many other diets out there. with no one being able to check for themselves how healthy their diet is, regardless of which baseline they use, it is like playing Russian roulette. Lets say you decide you want to create your own diet, you also do your own search for your baseline, using whatever methods and diets you choose. wouldn't you also want to be sure that it is balanced?
sadly there isn't enough guidelines/requirements that regulate pet foods/vitamins. Therefore if the creators do not want to reveal or can not reveal what is in their product, they don't have to. The BML gets the most flack, because it IS the only diet plan out there that the nutritional figures can be seen, checked, and compared. BUT it also continues to stand on it's own.

I hope that I have answered your questions,
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#10486 - 10/15/03 02:17 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bourbon - thanks for the response. Great post, and a very compelling presentation of your perspective, your knowledge and your experience. (When are your posts not educational?) Ya gotta love science. Every good answer leads to more new questions. But I wonít bore the rest of the board now. A few after thoughts:

1. Please know that Iím in no way knocking BML. I would be a load off of my mind if theyíd eat it. I kept hoping theyíd develop the taste over time. I think Iíve read literally thousands of these GC posts, many of yours, and I accept BML as the best-studied diet. (You might say ONLY studied diet.)

2. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Now as to how would compare the various diets when the baseline isn't set, well that isn't where the real problem is. The real problem is in not being able to get the nutritional breakdown of those diets.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is why I asked the question about how do we know the targets. If you could get the nutritional breakdown of every other diet, how would we know itís OK? What are we comparing it to? BML? It seems to me that knowing the content without the goals, or the goals without the content, are both exercises in futility. We need both. I think if I understood you correctly that we really donít know the goals. Or did I miss it?

3. I guess deep down I was hoping that the most knowledgeable people on the board would pity us suffering BML-less glider owners and say, ďOK, given you tried and arenít going to be able to use our gold standard proven diet, and based on our collective knowledge and experience, we think diets A, B, and C look on paper to be reasonable things to do. Not our first choice, but a reluctant and acceptable alternative. I can see from your post that isnít going to happen without better content data from the creator of the diet. Maybe it would be wrong for you to ďenableĒ us, condoning that which you donít believe in or know to be nutritionally balanced.

4. But the frustration remains. The Guruís say with conviction for all the right reasons ďBML.Ē The whiskered weirdo in the cage throws it back at me. (I think I saw him grinning!) Iím stuck in the middle. I can make a wild guess (or mildly educated guess) at what to try next, but I think your guess is better than my guess. Thatís why we look to you and others to reassure. Youíve repeatedly pointed out the reasons why you adhere to the proven BML. And I DO understand your reluctance to condone that with which you donít agree.

5. In medicine, we have many kinds of decision support for what we do. Sometimes randomized control trials are done. Great science. I like these best. Sometimes trial and error proven strategies from years ago. Ugly but effective. Sometimes we do what we do based on expert opinion. The leading people in the field get together and pick a path. The situation my not lend itself to studies, or the control arm might be unethical and therefore undoable. So, the smartest dude in the country says what he feels to be the best way to proceed, and we follow him like Moses. Dangerous? Yes. And also reality. Your best guess is better than my best guess, and BML isnít in the lineup today at my house.

6. I donít think most of what Iíve read that pushed back against BML is for any other reason than above. Not knocking it. Just being realistic about the situation in their own cage and wanting an alternative strategy.

7. And lastly, I could always tell you fancied gliders, but gee whiz.Ö
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
(most of the things in the wild they eat actually is unpalatable to us humans, the gliders palates are more of a blander taste, (sap, gums, and insects (controversial) they smell of tree bark). and yes I have tasted these items.)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

JUST WHAT DOES A MEALIE TASTE LIKE, CHICKEN? Iíll take the BML.

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#10487 - 10/15/03 02:48 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
JUST WHAT DOES A MEALIE TASTE LIKE, CHICKEN? Iíll take the BML.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

sounds like we need to get you the link to the Web site that promotes the raising of insects for human consumption. LOL

Interested????

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#10488 - 10/15/03 09:25 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
LOL, I thoroughly understand exactly what you are saying. I guess sadly there are many ways to approach an issue such as this, for starts, I never said I do not advocate another diet, I do, do I think that other diet is as nutritionally balanced as the BML? well that may be yet another story, but what I do know about the other diet is that it WAS originally put together by a vet and a team, has that diet changed over the years? yes of course, how far and for what reasons I am not aware of. BUT I do believe (and this is only my opinion) that it is the closest thing to a fresh feed diet that seems to be nutritionally complete. but I also understand what the product are that are being used. I could go down the list of the various diets, and state my reasons, that I don't advocate them. This has been done in many, many posts. I can also state why I do advocate the diets I do. MOST of my faith in the other diets is based on the fact that
1. continued changes are made based on research,
2. that the creators of the diet, have no problem sharing their information (not so much their research, but their nutritional content,)
3. that they have no problem addressing concerns to not only myself but to others as well.

these are very, very important issues. You can not create a diet plan and put it out there for the public, and not be aware of how that diet affects the inner workings of the gliders.
One of the biggest examples I can use in this case with the BML is the scare that was put out about too much d3 in the BML. We have been involved with many, many necropsies for many different reasons, and one thing that was never found was evidence of too much calcium caused by too much d3, there has never been found mineralization on the organs or calcium deposits in their system. This is where their speculation and supposition came in. with no proof. when we send warnings out regarding diets, it is based on actual facts, and we try to explain why we feel the way we do, there has been much information shared on this board, information that the average owner may never see for themselves.

We don't expect every owner to sit in on a necropsy and see first hand the affects of certain things. Those of us that are highly involved with the medical aspects are right there, we get in there work very closely with our vets, our labs and the consultations, we share the information not only among ourselves but with the glider community as well. We have been in the eyes of the community for many years. WE ARE NOT gurus. we have a passion for the species. not just our own gliders, but everyone's. the strides that have been made are awesome. The knowledge that all have had access to is also awesome. The opportunities of educating vets, and have those same vets help educate us, is a teamwork for the species.

sadly many times the flame wars that are started are almost always started by owners of less than a year. and done strictly from speculation or supposition, usually based on wanting to push their own diet or create a fast name for themselves. For the average owner, it is very, very confusing. especially the new ones, as they want to do what is best for their gliders, and the scares makes them doubt themselves.

I spoke with a woman last night, and as a new owner was given loads of bad info ranging from the feeding to the bonding techniques. and I can make suggestions, but as I told her, the bottom line choice is hers. I can explain why I feel this way, but she has to feel in her heart what she really believes is best for her glider, but I also warned her that there are people out there that "sound knowledgeable" but are they really? that is up to the individual. using lawyers as an example. over time you find out who the best lawyer is to listen to, based on their experiences, not just whether they handled their family cases, but also how they did for others. the longer they are in practice, the more you have to go on. sure not everyone is going to be happy, but you have to look at the total picture. and then when the time comes you have to decide for yourself which one to trust your life with.

There was an incident a handful of years ago, where a fairly new owner started a serious flame war on the BML, that was escalated out of control. mind you they fed the BML religiously, but their intent was to discredit myself, this board, the mods and the BML. they had a rather small group of followers. Mainly the rebels of GC who had repeatedly broken the rules. but they had a point they wanted to prove. this had actually escalated to the point where we all had to get legal help. BUT the first time the leaders glider got sick, I was notified by her. and my thought then, as my thought still is today, is simple. The glider is all that counts, here was my ultimate worst enemy, but the glider was all that counted, that glider didn't get to choose who it's owner was, but I had a choice as to whether I would help her. I did. that didn't stop her rampage, nor did I expect it to. but the bottom line was that glider lived.

sometimes we have to make decisions, based on what is best for our gliders, and just as you have chosen a diet plan that I , and many others don't advocate, doesn't mean that the reasons behind it is wrong, but it still will not stop us from worrying about your glider.

I would seriously consider the Suncoast diet plan for you, if all else has failed with the BML. these are the only 2 diet plans I would advocate.

there are many diets out there, and not all of them are healthy, sadly the average owner doesn't know what to choose, but if this board "SEEMS" like a BML board, it is because that is the diet that most of us believe to be the best available at this time. The second in line would be the Suncoast diet plan. I have worked with many owners with the BML, many that wouldn't touch it before are now eating it, and then we have those that no matter how much they try, they will not. those owners are not pitched away, we continue to try to work with them to find a way to get them to eat a balanced plan. whether it is BML, Suncoast or a modification of one of the 2. others on the board suggest other diets, based on what they have done, (many short term owners), thinking it is okay since their glider hasn't died in a year.
I guess that is where most of the controversies among other diets come in. I have just gotten to the point that no matter what the risks, that people are going to do what they feel is right.

of all the diets listed on various diet pages, very few I would advocate or even as a last resort tell people to try. but because their glider eats it, they think it is okay.
a wonderful, wonderful man, who is one of my best friends told me, "you can't save them all, some you have to watch die and know you had done your best, you did what you could". This I have learned to live with. and trust me it isn't easy. The best I can do is to get the information out there, and from that point, allow each person to decide for themselves.

there is about 10 people here at GC that I would put my gliders life into their hands. I have done it. I look at the others as well intentioned, but over the years, I have learned where to put my trust. everyone must ultimately do the same. they must decide where to put the lives of their gliders. Not just with one person, as that persona may not be available, but with several people. learn them, learn their beliefs, where their heart is, and really what is important to them, do they have ulterior motives? where is their experience? what do they specialize in (info wise), just like I said about finding a good lawyer. or dr for that matter, you will find many people have many different strengths, some specialize in certain areas.
an example would be. the mutations/colors etc.. I surely wouldn't be asking Ellen or myself, as we have little to no experience, and our knowledge is very limited. I would definitely be talking with Judie, or Sandman, and because of my limited knowledge in that area, i wouldn't be slamming, flaming, or challenging their knowledge, but I surely would go directly to them for any questions or concerns.

as for the mealies-- NO they do not taste like chicken- they taste like cardboard. and as for the site for where humans eat them, they are seasoned, and cooked to be palatable to us humans, you really want to see what the glider taste, then eat one. I did. and I am not the only one, now would I do it again? I don't know, all I know is I am glad I had something to wash it down with afterwards. the acacia gum also tastes like cardboard, as does sap
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#10489 - 10/15/03 06:04 PM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've never meant to flame and now I am more depressed about my suggies diet than ever. Harry and Potter are such picky eaters. I hope this doesn't kill them because they have saved my life. Four years ago I went to a local hospital because I had a kidney stone. They insisted on doing a test and jammed radioactive dye into the facia of my left forearm which is my dominate arm. It caused something called compartment syndrome which must be adressed immediately. They didn't and by the time my husband rushed me to a surgeon it was almost too late. I nearly lost my arm and if I had arrived an hour later the surgeon said the dye would have hit my kidneys and killed me. I have had four painful, gruesome surgerys in four years because of this. I am permanately scared from my wrist to my elbow. But the real kicker is that I was a professional artist and an art teacher. Now I cannot paint ,draw or teach. I was about as low as anyone could be until I read about sugargliders and started researching them. My husband and son got me Harry and Potter for mother's day from Suncoast. We drove six hours to and six hour back from the airport with them. I couldn't just sleep cause the little things needed me and before long I was up and going again. It did not take them long to whip me into shape. Since then I have lost 30pounds, started back in physical therapy, remodeled my house, and am training myself to cut and do collages with my right hand. I know Harry and Potter's diet of babyfood chicken,fruits,vegetabes and cereals with supplements is not proven. Im just doing the best I can do with extremely picky eaters. I hope I don't have to live with the guilt of killing them because of their diet after all they have done for me. They have saved my life and put my family on the road to emotional recovery. This is the last thing I am going to say on the board about diets. God bless! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#10490 - 10/16/03 01:25 AM Re: Diet doubts [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
1200p nothing in this thread was to make anyone feel guilty, I sent you an email to hopefully help you with your problem..

this thread was to hopefully get out some facts. nothing more, nothing less. also to allow others to see why there is so much "push" on the bml. this is not a defense nor will I defend it, but an explanation
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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