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#1046843 - 12/27/10 03:36 AM Ensure?
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I have very mixed feelings about using Ensure in a glider diet. Very mixed.
I am not currently using it now, but have in the past as a once a week treat.
I read where "Boost" (?) was used and recommended by a zoo or something in Australia...man where DID I put that article...

I want to hear how some other people feel about it. Good or bad?

Why do you feel that way?

What type of Ensure (there are a couple different types of the Ensure brand alone) are you using and why?

How often do you use it?

If you use a "liquid nutrition" different from Ensure, which one and why?

Have you seen any effects on coat condition when using/not using it?

Thanks for being as specific as possible smile
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#1046849 - 12/27/10 04:29 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Sustagen ( plain hospital formula powder NOT liquid) was the original vitamin supplement for the first glider diets in Australia. It was used until approx 2006 at Healesville Sanctuary where they replaced it for a more generic bird vitamin/calcium supplement. I asked the sanctuary the reasoning behind this change and it was simply to streamline their diets -in particular the nectar mix across more than one species of animal/bird. They found sustagen to be an excellent vitamin supplement in the sugar glider nectar mix and there was no nutritional deficiency for the change.

Sustagen is marketed & manufactured in USA as Boost *** . There are small nutritional differences though between the two but not significant ones. Ensure though made also as a nutritional supplement, does not have the same nutritional ratios as Boost/Sustagen so it would be like comparing apples to oranges. Ensure has not been nutritionally tested with sugar gliders like Sustagen has. Again please note all references here are for the powder hospital formulas not the liquid drinks or shakes which is something I personally would not recommend

*** As per post further down this thread, it appears that Boost powder might not be available in the US anymore.



Edited by Marz (12/27/10 07:42 AM)

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#1046852 - 12/27/10 06:56 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
1daddyglider1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 771
Loc: Lecanto Florida
Marz:
Do you know what would be the U.S. genetic equivalent?
Do you have a list of ingredients for the dry mix.

Sorry to hijack the thread.
I use to use a 1/4 of a cup of the liquid boost(almond flavor) as a change of pace in the liquid portion of the diet. Haven't done it for awhile.
Art

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#1046854 - 12/27/10 07:15 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Hi Art

I just looked at the Nestle website and I can't see the Boost hospital formula powder anymore! It was definitely there a few months back as I copied the nutritional data down for the comparison I was doing. I do have it somewhere on my backup drive which i will try and find tomorrow. However, if they no longer have the dry product, the comparison is moot.

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#1046857 - 12/27/10 07:25 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
1daddyglider1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 771
Loc: Lecanto Florida
Ok thanks Marz.
Art

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#1046870 - 12/27/10 07:53 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
I know someone who feeds an ensure based diet and has for years. Her gliders are living to be 12 to 15 years old...............just sayin...............
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#1046913 - 12/27/10 09:33 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Thanks so much Marz!
and everyone else who has responded. would love to see a comparison of the ingredients and nutritional values for the "Boost" dry and liquid, and the Ensure (and various forms of it)

Marz, may I ask why you would not recommend the liquid forms? and can you share the name/brand of the vitamin/calcium supplement they are now using?

Thanks smile
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#1046915 - 12/27/10 09:36 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
T bull feeds the ensure diet.
i feed the suncoast diet but have replaced the reptile vits./min. with plain vanilla ensure adding 1/2 tsp. plus a tiny bit more of calcium citrate(now brand) to each 8 oz. bottle of the ensure.

i give each of my gliders 1 tbs. of this each night for their vits./min. 2 tbs. for 2 gliders.

they all got a little fluffier. not over weight.

there was a discussion abt. ensure and how much calcium to add to each ensure container that is where i learned abt.
the amt. of calcium to add.

ensure does not have enough calcium to phos. so you have to add the calcium.

regards,
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#1046926 - 12/27/10 09:56 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Many of the 'medical' or 'hospital' nutritional formulas are designed for use in tube feedings. They may be nutritionally similar to the familiar canned products available in grocery and drug stores but most have no flavorings and may have different blends of vitamins and minerals since palatability (pleasant flavor, lack of chalky texture) are not an issue.

From a practical point, we cannot really compare the commonly available products to the older powdered versions that are not generally available. Nutritional supplementation products have evolved since the original Sustagen/Boost products mentioned above were used and many are now actually 'prescription' only
products.
_________________________
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& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

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#1046937 - 12/27/10 10:16 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I've given vanilla Ensure as a treat now and then, after making sure none of them were dehydrated. When feeding Ensure as part of their daily diet, what do you do if a glider is dehydrated? The body draws out the moisture from Ensure and leaves a clay like substance, which will block their intestinal tract. Is this not a problem when feeding an Ensure diet or do you feed something else when dehydration is an issue?
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#1046944 - 12/27/10 10:57 AM Re: Ensure? [Re: suggiemom1980]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
Originally Posted By: suggiemom_1980
The body draws out the moisture from Ensure and leaves a clay like substance, which will block their intestinal tract. Is this not a problem when feeding an Ensure diet or do you feed something else when dehydration is an issue?


Not to hi-jack this thread, but I've heard this before. Can anyone tell me who found it out and how was it discovered? I have fed an Ensure based diet for many years and never had any nutritional issues, ill gliders, or blocked intestines. I do add some warm water to the empty ensure bottle before adding the calcium, but that is just so that the calcium disolves fully before I add the new bottle of ensure to it.

I had one glider who got dehydrated following surgery for a mating wound. She did not come out of the gas well, and attacked herself, tearing up her chest before the tech could get her wrapped up. She was not eating or drinking well for a few days following the surgery and started to get dehydrated. The vet sub-qed her once and I started handfeeding melons and watered down fruit juices, but she never stopped getting her ensure and never had any blockages. Alittle soft poos, but as my vet says, "what goes in, comes out" so all soft, watery foods in, soft poos coming out.

If there is proof that ensure turns to clay in the intestines, I really need to know, so I can add some kind of test for it to my yearly exams.
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www.lovegliders.com

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you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#1046995 - 12/27/10 01:10 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
T, I believe it was Jen Bailey who had a glider die from intestinal blockage from the ensure. (verified upon necropsy). I/you would have to double check that with her though.
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Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1047013 - 12/27/10 01:58 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
oh lord if anyone has any more of this intestinal information please let me know also. i am also feeding ensure/cal. to my gliders.

back to the drawing board?

regards,
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#1047014 - 12/27/10 02:03 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Does anyone have the calcium and phosphorous amounts for the regular ensure? I was only able to locate the info for ensure plus and the ensure fiber (with fos) online.
wondering why calcium needs to be added to it. The data on the 2 I mentioned are either a 1:1 or better. I would think a nutritional supplement would be at least 1:1? or is that done to compensate for the fruits and veggies being fed?
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#1047015 - 12/27/10 02:05 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: hwh4ev]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
oh lord if anyone has any more of this intestinal information please let me know also. i am also feeding ensure/cal. to my gliders.

back to the drawing board?

regards,
nancy in detroit


LOL when it comes to diets I dont think I ever left the drawing board!
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^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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#1047023 - 12/27/10 02:28 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Im typing this on my phone, so please forgive the bad grammar...

I asked my vet about the "ensure turning to clay" issue before I began feeding the ensure and she told me that a severly glider should only be sub-qed or given water/nectar and NEVER given any solids or "liquid solids" such as ensure/smoothies/etc... If a severly gliders is given anything over then pure liquids then it has the potential to turn to "clay" in their digestive track.

That being said, ensure itself is/ not the issue, but rather the fact that sick and severly dehydrated gliders should NEVER be fed anythin and shouldb only be given water or nectar and, most importantly, should be getting subq fluids.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1047045 - 12/27/10 02:59 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: CandyOtte]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: OtteMom
Many of the 'medical' or 'hospital' nutritional formulas are designed for use in tube feedings. They may be nutritionally similar to the familiar canned products available in grocery and drug stores but most have no flavorings and may have different blends of vitamins and minerals since palatability (pleasant flavor, lack of chalky texture) are not an issue.

From a practical point, we cannot really compare the commonly available products to the older powdered versions that are not generally available. Nutritional supplementation products have evolved since the original Sustagen/Boost products mentioned above were used and many are now actually 'prescription' only
products.


i think you may be a little confused here with what Sustagen powder actually is as it certainly not for tube feeding and it is very easily available in chemists and is excellent tasting vanilla flavour. The reason it is called Hospital formula is that is promoting itself as a more complete nutritonal supplement seperate from their drinks/sports powder range which you can buy in the supermarkets. Boost powder was on the market only a few months ago so not old fashioned in the nutritional sense..just following the whims of the consumer market I guess for "easy" and "ready to use" products.

The reason I do not recommend the drinks range of products personally is I have only ever used the powder. This is the way it was originally introduced to gliders...as a supplement in the nectar mix and this is how it was nutritonally devised for gliders. As I have never used the ensure product in any form or any of the sustagen drinks, I obviously cannot recommend them even if they are suitable.
I only weighed in on this thread as Boost was mentioned and it was the US version of Sustagen.

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#1047084 - 12/27/10 04:47 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
The issue with ensure comes with feeding it to DEHYDRATED gliders. Healthy gliders that are eating enough fruits and drinking enough other liquids shouldn't have those problems.

I will refrain from posting my personal opinion about the ensure as a diet staple.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1047107 - 12/27/10 06:03 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Please I value everyone's insight on this. I would really like to hear what everyone with experience with this product has to say, regarding my original questions, as well as additional nutritional info and/or experience they can provide in this area. oh yeah and the additional question I raised about adding the calcium.

If you dont want to express your opinion publicly, please feel free to PM me. I am looking for intelligent and rational discussion on this type of product and possible benefits or bad side effects.

This was not meant to be an argument about diet.



Edited by JillMarie (12/27/10 06:07 PM)
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#1047110 - 12/27/10 06:11 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
I would just like to say you are going to find a lot of various answers/controversies to your question. What does your vet say? I am going with the voice of experience from the glider tree and I hope she finally posts what she feeds. And since GC has gotten much , much better about not bashing diets and each other ....................which is totally awesome, then maybe just maybe she will. I would love to see it under the diet link. Ill/dehydrated gliders should never be fed an ensure based diet or Ensure period, that is a fact! I keep BML supplies on hand to syringe to sick or dehydrated gliders (if I ever have to)
I buy the vanilla flavored Ensure with caltrius/caltrate (green lable, watch out they have chocolate in the same lable color so make sure if you use it to get the vanilla. It has a lot more calcium and other good stuff in it! Just keep on a researching, there is no telling what we will be feeding 5 years from now. LOL
This is how we all learn and I learn something new every day!
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#1047114 - 12/27/10 06:19 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Hmm....maybe Australia has a cooler chemist's. I've never seen powdered hospital formula anything at CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, or Kroger. I think the point is moot if we can't find the product! LOL. (Can we have some levity here, pwetty pwease?)

Cora I wouldn't feed BML to a dehydrated glider unless you water it waaaaaaay down first.

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#1047125 - 12/27/10 06:41 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: Cora]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Cora
I would love to see it under the diet link.


Cora - any diet can be listed under the diet link. As with any of the other links, anyone can add the information. thumb
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1047127 - 12/27/10 06:48 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
BTW - the Ensure diet is listed in the database as Darcy's diet. Assuming this is the same diet being discussed here, it would help if the same name was consistently being used.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1047129 - 12/27/10 06:53 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: tbull]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: tbull
Originally Posted By: suggiemom_1980
The body draws out the moisture from Ensure and leaves a clay like substance, which will block their intestinal tract. Is this not a problem when feeding an Ensure diet or do you feed something else when dehydration is an issue?


Not to hi-jack this thread, but I've heard this before. Can anyone tell me who found it out and how was it discovered?


I haven't read the entire thread yet, but wanted to respond to this when I saw it. When feeding a severely dehydrated sugar glider, it is strongly recommended not to feed Ensure type liquids until hydration can be restored. Jen (Xfilefan) had an experience with a glider that vomited up a thick clay sludge after being fed Ensure when the glider was very dehydrated.

There have been a lot of gliders fed Ensure or Boost or equate/store brands that have not experienced this. I have fed Ensure, but I did stop when Kira became very dehydrated because I simply didn't want to take the risk. My vet said the reason this kind of thing can happen is that when an animal is very dehydrated, their systems slow or shut down so in the digestive system, the intestines keep drawing out water because the food isn't moving through, not because it is pulling 'extra' water out at normal speeds. (Does that make sense)? If an animal's systems are running along normal and healthy, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.
_________________________
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1047131 - 12/27/10 06:56 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: Guerita135]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Guerita135
I asked my vet about the "ensure turning to clay" issue before I began feeding the ensure and she told me that a severly glider should only be sub-qed or given water/nectar and NEVER given any solids or "liquid solids" such as ensure/smoothies/etc... If a severly gliders is given anything over then pure liquids then it has the potential to turn to "clay" in their digestive track.

That being said, ensure itself is/ not the issue, but rather the fact that sick and severly dehydrated gliders should NEVER be fed anythin and shouldb only be given water or nectar and, most importantly, should be getting subq fluids.


This is my understanding also - if your glider is severely dehydrated enough for Ensure to be a concern, they wouldn't be eating solid foods anyway and you have a much bigger problem on your hands than what they are eating for a few days.
_________________________
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1047147 - 12/27/10 07:27 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: ]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
yes that is correct anything fed to a sick glider is way watered down and generally with a syringe plus pedialyte, and subq only if necessary!
I know it can go under the diet link the trick is getting her to do it.............I think maybe she will! Been working hard on her!


Edited by Cora (12/27/10 07:28 PM)
Edit Reason: oopsie
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#1047164 - 12/27/10 07:55 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
mary h Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 385
Loc: Wallis, Texas
...I have been feeding Ensure for about as long as it's been on the market. My babies get it every other night in a smoothie and once a week straight.

I have 12 gliders who are between the ages of 10 and 14 and have been here many years...never have health problems of any kind. They are still active and run in thier wheels. They are on the ensure. Pacman lived to be 15 yrs and 4 months.

I tried many diffrent things to get them thier vitamins and calcium...it was all washed down the drain the next morning.

I am not telling anyone to feed like I do...what I am saying is "if it works...I don't fix it"

Maybe it's all the corn they get everynight...they love corn...that balances out the ensure. They get eggs...veggies...fruit...meat and more. So before you frown on my diet...think about my babies being healthy, happy, and trying to out live me and doing a good job of it.

Mary
_________________________
mary h

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#1047176 - 12/27/10 08:19 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
" have 12 gliders who are between the ages of 10 and 14 and have been here many years...never have health problems of any kind. They are still active and run in thier wheels. They are on the ensure. Pacman lived to be 15 yrs and 4 months."

That speaks volumes to me!! Thank Ya Miss Mary!
_________________________
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903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#1047183 - 12/27/10 08:43 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: mary h]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Mary hello -
what a treat to find a posting from you -
"baby white corn" my little ones love but they also adore their "PML" since 2002 (wonder why - lol)
Maybe we are just a couple of stubborn old-timers!

Years ago spoke with a couple of older Aussie care-takers that swear by their own secret ratio of sweetened condensed milk, etc, etc ... let me know if you wish or need to try downline ((hugs))



For other's
A quick look I see sustagen listed in Aussie zoo diets & published in 1990 & 1999 in
Taronga Zoo's Guide to Urban Wildlife & Care of Australian Wildlife,
(petaurus, gymobelideous, swift parrot & Red FF) Sustagen is also listed in
Australian Mammals biology and captive management - 2003 Jackson
(would need to locate discs & look thru thumb drives for more)

Following links are interesting - last is very interesting to compare

http://www.sustagen.com.au/sustagen_hospital.html
(click on the right hand side for the nutritional table & scroll down for vanilla)

ENTERAL NUTRITION FORMULAS

Some commonly used brand names

http://www.drugs.com/cons/sustagen.html



Enteral Nutrition Formulas (Systemic) COMPARE - Products

http://www.drugs.com/mmx/sustagen.html?printable=1
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#1047189 - 12/27/10 09:04 PM Re: Ensure? [Re: JillMarie]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
This is the ensure I use since I can no longer get the high calcium Ensure

http://ensure.com/products/ensure-bone-h...fit%20Platforms
_________________________
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903-808-1142

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