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#1050274 - 01/03/11 07:24 PM Trying to understand
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I had a new owner ask me what fruits/veggies that should be fed with a particular diet. I really couldn't answer with any comfort level ~ just suggested to keep the Ca:P ratio at 2:1 and use the diet calculator to "do the math for you".

In talking with someone that uses the Blended diet, if I understood correctly, the staple diet itself is balanced and adding any safe fruit/veggie will maintain the balance.

Assuming that is true, this is where I get confused. (Now ya know why I feed BML! roflmao )

If you can put any variety of fruits & veggies with the Blended diet, and the Ca:P ratio doesn't get altered enough to worry about, why does it matter with HPW, or other diets that allow the variety of your choosing?
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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#1050283 - 01/03/11 07:34 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
Hi Shelly.
Well, you have a few conflicting ideas roflmao

The blended diet has a great ca:p ratio on it's own. This way, if they only eat the frozen stuff, they are getting a balanced diet. (True)

You can feed any variety of fruits and veggies (True)

You do, however, need to balance the ca:p of the fruits and veggies that you feed together, at least during a weeks period. If not, then you can set off the balance, just like with everything else. So, for instance, you can feed pomegranite and lemon peel at the same time...

Make sense? Not sure if I just confused you more... or confused myself because I am new to the blended diet, and switched from BML about a month or 2 ago thumb
_________________________
*Whatever I said, I said it with a Smile*

wave Sari

:grey:Sugar:grey:Nibbles:grey:Destiny

Rapid Runner *Sold Out!

Suggie Smart Mart *Home of The Hippie Pouch & Suggie Chandelier

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#1050305 - 01/03/11 07:59 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
No, I understand now. And my friend just sent me a PM too.

I just couldn't comprehend why adding fruits/veggies to an already balanced staple diet would not affect the overall Ca:P ratio. Now I see that it does! blush

Can we delete this post now so everyone doesn't see how dumb I am? shakehead

(Again, now ya see why I stick to BML!)
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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#1050334 - 01/03/11 08:34 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
I think it's a great post! Back when I fed HPW, I didn't know enough to do the calculations to get close to the 2:1 Ca:Ph for the overall diet. Since the diet itself was 1:1, I tried to feed higher ratio fruits and veggies. Well, it's not just the ratio, but the actual amounts of nutrients in each component of the diet.

2/3 Tbs of blended has 25.25 mg Ca and 10.95 mg of Ph for 2.3:1 ratio

1/2 Tbs of HPW has 4.47 mg Ca and 4.68 mg of Ph for 1:1 ratio

If you add 1 Tbs of papaya (4.8:1) and 1 Tbs of beet greens (2.9:1), one would think that would really throw off the blended meal and balance the HPW meal. Using the diet calculator, blended would be an overall 2.4:1 ratio and HPW would be 1.5:1. So for those who feed HPW, what fruits and veggies do you feed to get close to a 2:1 ratio?

This is why I now feed the blended diet. You can offer a wider variety of fruits and veggies without throwing the ratio way off of the recommended 2:1. Well, that and we now have clean food bowls in the morning! grin
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1050388 - 01/03/11 11:03 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
Thanks for keeping the post open, Shelly! wink roflmao

So, Nancy, what is a typical weeks worth of fruits and veggies you add to the blended, when figuring out your ratios? I'm not very goot at it yet, and can use some more examples of stuff they may like to eat together...
_________________________
*Whatever I said, I said it with a Smile*

wave Sari

:grey:Sugar:grey:Nibbles:grey:Destiny

Rapid Runner *Sold Out!

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#1050510 - 01/04/11 09:10 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: SariYappa]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Sari, here's what I feed, in varying combinations every night. They always get my frozen veggie mix and fresh fruits, then I just add in whatever I come to in the freezer/fridge. Nothing is pureed - my gliders like to hold their food.

The veggies I always have on hand:
frozen - green beans 1 bag, carrot/peas 1 bag, corn 1/4 bag. I mix my own and keep in a gal freezer bag.
fresh - mustard greens, collard greens, sweet potato, yellow squash. I keep these on hand for my beardie.

Occasionally feed bok choy (yeah, this was a surprise hit)

Fresh fruits are chopped up every few nights and served every night:
canteloupe, honeydew, grapes

Fresh fruits in season: strawberries, kiwi, papaya, watermelon

Frozen fruits I keep on hand: pitted cherries, strawberries, mango, papaya, raspberries

Avocado as a treat once every week or two... just because I love to watch them hold the peel and chew off the flesh!

Here are this morning's glider dishes. Nothing was removed before taking the pic! I have 8 cages, with 20 gliders total. These are normal morning dishes. I have had only a few mornings when there was more food left, maybe when there was a full moon or some mating going on or something. Overall, I am THRILLED with how well they are eating! My smaller gliders are also putting on some much needed weight.

The light blue at the top and the small green below it are for a breeding pair - currently 1 IP and their soon-to-be-moved 10 week OOP joey. Dad has become a little food aggressive recently. They get 4 helpings, just in case! The two light blue dishes on the bottom right are for my non-breeding quad cage. I ALWAYS put extra in, and it is ALWAYS gone in the mornings. Bottom left tan is for my other breeding pair, with 1 IP. They get 3 helpings.


_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1050525 - 01/04/11 09:48 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Emailed you, Sari. smile
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1050717 - 01/04/11 04:36 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
Heathr6913 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 668
Loc: Indiana
You do have to keep it balanced but I will say that it's EXTREMELY easy to keep it balanced! Because the blended diet itself is balanced itself, pretty much any combination of the normal fruits/veggies that I fed still kept it in balance. I mean, I'm sure it's possible to throw it off so I'm not saying not to use the diet calculator but it is truly simple to keep it balanced w/ fruits and veggies.
_________________________
**Heather**
Gliders- Izzy, Bella, and Snitch :grey:
Gem and Rodeo :wfb:
Cameo :rtmo:
Winter :leu:


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#1050796 - 01/04/11 07:10 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
Thanks Nancy! That's a lot of dishes wink
Got it Aimee, Thank you too thanks

Very good info!
_________________________
*Whatever I said, I said it with a Smile*

wave Sari

:grey:Sugar:grey:Nibbles:grey:Destiny

Rapid Runner *Sold Out!

Suggie Smart Mart *Home of The Hippie Pouch & Suggie Chandelier

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#1051162 - 01/05/11 04:38 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: nancy1202]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: nancy1202
So for those who feed HPW, what fruits and veggies do you feed to get close to a 2:1 ratio?
I just had someone else ask me this. dunno Anyone out there feeding HPW who can help?
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1051252 - 01/05/11 08:45 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
thumb

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Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1051309 - 01/05/11 10:10 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: DCMuffin]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Thanks Aimee! I was beginning to think no one fed HPW any more!

I plugged those 14 (well 13, and okra twice) into Candy's diet calculator, and it gave me an overall ration of 1.0:1 just for the fruits/veggies and 1.0:1 when you add 3.5 Tbs of HPW (one week for one glider).

For the first group of Mon-Sun with no HPW, the calculator gives 1.1:1.

Did I plug something in wrong somewhere? I couldn't find any combination that would give a 2:1 overall. dunno
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1051327 - 01/05/11 11:12 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Nancy...this is just two weeks of the big menu I have but I feed the Blended diet. Either way, same fruits and veggies apply.

Liezl and I share our menus and she and Bozeman are the ones that worked up the ratios, I didn't have a part in it. I do know that they went to a lot of work to do so and it's not only figured by the Ca:P ratio but all the other elements, as well....which is how they came to the overall weekly ratio. I suggest sending her a message (or she'll see this when she's back online soon) and you'll get clarification. thumb
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1051375 - 01/06/11 02:06 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
Megs
Unregistered


I personally believe that a glider should be getting fruits, veggies, and protein in the diet nightly. No (fruit/protein day 1, veggies/protein day 2, etc).

There are a lot of diets out there made so that you don't have to try and figure it all out yourself. Many are on my site, there are some from another site (anybody have it? I lost my bookmarks).

I would say it's a wise decision to use those recipes for any person who feeds HPW and simply does not have the time to sit down and do all the math for it on their own.

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#1051381 - 01/06/11 03:43 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 2346
Loc: South Africa
nancy1202, I had a look at the Excel diet calculator sheets that we used when we calculated the values.

I attached three screen prints to clarify your query and I hope that it will make sense.

Note that we feed the Blended diet, and not HPW, and that our menu is specifically worked out for the Blended diet. We feed them the Blended diet variation 3 specifically.

I entered the values as follows:

One:
Week 6 of our Blended diet, note the Ca:Ph ratio of 2.0:1


Two:
Week 6 of our Blended diet where I replaced the Blended diet with HPW diet, note the Ca:Ph ratio of 1.0:1


Three:
Week 6 of our Blended diet with only the fruit/vegs, note the Ca:Ph ratio of 1.1:1


From your post above, I entered everything the same way. So no mistake there. You will just have to find your own fruit/veg combination using the sheet if you decide to feed the HPW diet.

HPW diet is low in calcium, and for this reason you do not get the same values as we do in your sheet when you choose the HPW diet.

Lastly, note that the Blended diet calls for 2 Tbs Blended per glider per day, and not 1 Tbs per glider per day as mentioned above.
_________________________
:grey: Casper (Bozeman) & Liezl (Gizmogirl):grey:
www.sugarglider.co.za
hug2

A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language


PackinFuzz.com Sugar Glider Online Store

RIP: Sugar (2009) :grey:
You unfairly passed too young - your passing saved many gliders and will continue to do so

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#1051382 - 01/06/11 03:51 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
Also keep in mind that you want to reach an over all calcium to phosphorus ratio between 1.5:1 and 2:1. Our gliders eat all their fruits and veggies for the weekly menu since we've changed to the Blended diet, this may not work for everyone.
_________________________
Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013

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#1051434 - 01/06/11 08:00 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: Bozeman]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Yep, we agree! I don't feed HPW and haven't for 2 years. This is one of the main reasons why... I can't figure out how to balance the HPW diet! I feed the blended and have for several months now. The ratios are easy to figure and bowls are licked clean.

My question, and I believe the OP above, is specifically which fruits and veggies work with the HPW diet. New owners have been asking, and I always try to give an unbiased opinion in addition to my personal experience.
Originally Posted By: Bozeman

Lastly, note that the Blended diet calls for 2 Tbs Blended per glider per day, and not 1 Tbs per glider per day as mentioned above.
The Blended diet calls for 2 tsp per glider per day. thumb I couldn't find the 1 Tbs referenced, but if it was me, oops!
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1051446 - 01/06/11 08:57 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: nancy1202]
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 2346
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: nancy1202
Yep, we agree! I don't feed HPW and haven't for 2 years. This is one of the main reasons why... I can't figure out how to balance the HPW diet! I feed the blended and have for several months now. The ratios are easy to figure and bowls are licked clean.

My question, and I believe the OP above, is specifically which fruits and veggies work with the HPW diet. New owners have been asking, and I always try to give an unbiased opinion in addition to my personal experience.
Originally Posted By: Bozeman

Lastly, note that the Blended diet calls for 2 Tbs Blended per glider per day, and not 1 Tbs per glider per day as mentioned above.
The Blended diet calls for 2 tsp per glider per day. thumb I couldn't find the 1 Tbs referenced, but if it was me, oops!


To clarify, I understand that you are referring to the HPW diet, but as DCMuffin made reference to our menu, and it concerned the Blended diet and not the HPW diet, it needed to be mentioned.

I meant 2 Tbs Fruit and Veg. Thank you for picking that up.
_________________________
:grey: Casper (Bozeman) & Liezl (Gizmogirl):grey:
www.sugarglider.co.za
hug2

A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language


PackinFuzz.com Sugar Glider Online Store

RIP: Sugar (2009) :grey:
You unfairly passed too young - your passing saved many gliders and will continue to do so

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#1051476 - 01/06/11 10:24 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I find it very difficult to bring the average Ca:P ratio for the HPW diet up to 1.5:1 using fruits and vegetables only. That was part of the reason I developed the Blended diet in the first place.

With HPW you need to choose primarily fruits and vegetables that are high in calcium, which limits your choices. It is especially important to limit high phosphorus foods like corn with the HPW diet.

One option is to add calcium to the HPW mix (900 mg, same as used in the Blended diet) which brings the ratio up to 2.1:1 and allows a much wider choice of fruits and vegetables to be fed.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1051518 - 01/06/11 11:53 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: CandyOtte]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
That's what I'm finding, Candy. When I fed HPW, I thought I was feeding a balanced diet by using higher calcium fruits and vegetables, but obviously that was not the case. Thank you for all of your research and number-crunching to provide a balanced alternative with the Blended diet!

Like Shelly, I was just trying to gather information for new owners in my area. It doesn't appear that HPW as written would be the best diet for them to start with if it is so difficult to balance.
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1051684 - 01/06/11 08:31 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: OtteMom
I find it very difficult to bring the average Ca:P ratio for the HPW diet up to 1.5:1 using fruits and vegetables only. That was part of the reason I developed the Blended diet in the first place.

With HPW you need to choose primarily fruits and vegetables that are high in calcium, which limits your choices. It is especially important to limit high phosphorus foods like corn with the HPW diet.

One option is to add calcium to the HPW mix (900 mg, same as used in the Blended Diet) which brings the ratio up to 2.1:1 and allows a much wider choice of fruits and vegetables to be fed.


Originally Posted By: nancy1202
Like Shelly, I was just trying to gather information for new owners in my area. It doesn't appear that HPW as written would be the best diet for them to start with if it is so difficult to balance.


To make this a bit easier (maybe??), does anyone have a "suggested menu" for the HPW diet? Maybe a listing for a two-week rotation?

I'm seeing that the Blended diet is fairly simple to maintain, but HPW seems more difficult.

When new owners contact me, I like to give them the options, but its so hard for me to discuss the other diets that it seems like I've become a sales representative for BML. (Now...where's my commission? roflmao )

If we had a cheat sheet, it would sure help out. If they aren't feeding the proper fruits/veggies to maintain the balance, then the diet isn't going to prove healthy for their gliders.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1051686 - 01/06/11 08:34 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: DCMuffin]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: DCMuffin
I do know that they went to a lot of work to do so and it's not only figured by the Ca:P ratio but all the other elements, as well....which is how they came to the overall weekly ratio.


Can you expand on this? This is the information I was looking for in this thread Diets - What else to consider? I know there have been no diet studies, just wondering what other "elements" come into consideration. All we ever hear about is Ca:P. (If there is a response to this, maybe we can keep it in the other thread?)
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1051732 - 01/07/11 01:17 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 2346
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Originally Posted By: DCMuffin
I do know that they went to a lot of work to do so and it's not only figured by the Ca:P ratio but all the other elements, as well....which is how they came to the overall weekly ratio.


Can you expand on this? This is the information I was looking for in this thread Diets - What else to consider? I know there have been no diet studies, just wondering what other "elements" come into consideration. All we ever hear about is Ca:P. (If there is a response to this, maybe we can keep it in the other thread?)


I am sure DCMuffin referred to the "other elements" as those already included in Candy's diet calculator to be able to reach variety of different vitamins and minerals. We only use the diet calculator that is available for everyone's use and it shows all the other elements (nutrition) needed when you start to explore different fruits and vegetables with your staple diet.
_________________________
:grey: Casper (Bozeman) & Liezl (Gizmogirl):grey:
www.sugarglider.co.za
hug2

A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language


PackinFuzz.com Sugar Glider Online Store

RIP: Sugar (2009) :grey:
You unfairly passed too young - your passing saved many gliders and will continue to do so

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#1051754 - 01/07/11 07:29 AM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Thank you for clarifying that Casper. smile
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1051925 - 01/07/11 05:04 PM Re: Trying to understand [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery


To make this a bit easier (maybe??), does anyone have a "suggested menu" for the HPW diet? Maybe a listing for a two-week rotation?


I have had one person so far e-mail me their "menu", and it is very helpful. With diets being so controversial, if you feed HPW, but do not wish to put your menu here, please feel free to PM me! I will work with others to make sure it is the correct ratio, then we'll have something to offer the newbies that are feeding HPW and need assistance. My e-mail address is in my profile! smile
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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