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#106608 - 05/31/06 09:34 AM attributes to "lumpy jaw"
Anonymous
Unregistered


We call it Lumpy Jaw, but don't really know where it comes from. There are many theories, but that doesn't mean they are true or false. Due to the sudden appearance of many gun infections:

My question is, for those of you with cases of abcess or infection in the jaw, what was your staple diet at the time? Not what your feeding now, but what they where fed up to and until the infection.

Did the vet see problems inside the mouth, leading you to believe it STARTED as a gum/flesh problem?

I'll start of course:

BML, fed strictly, various bugs mainly mealies ocasionally a cricket.

-No indication that the abcess's started in the gum tissue.

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#106609 - 05/31/06 09:40 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just had a successful treatment with my Caramel(f), cuz she got lumpy jaw last week. Im so fortunate to see the only Exotic vet near my house(they are new).

Anyway, he told me to just avoid hard stuffs, but that aside, just feed with the usual that you feed them.

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#106610 - 05/31/06 10:01 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
I have no experience with " Lumpy Jaw " but this is a very interesting question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#106611 - 05/31/06 11:10 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mine haven't had lumpy jaw, but this is a great opportunity for data to be collected on the subject! Mine are on the Suncoast diet
-Zookeeper's Secret
-one or two vege/fruit (fresh, frozen or slushy)
-mealworm, crickets, yogurt, baby food chicken or egg
(Insects are freezedried)
I was thinking that if data was going to be collected regarding the matter then it might be useful to see the correlation between diet v/s lumpy jaw and if so, whether or not there is a significant amount of occurrences to warrant eliminating or changing that particular diet.
And not particularly off topic, but maybe side topic...Is there or can there be a forum/database where people can register their gliders for info collecting purposes such as this? I.e. you can put the basic stats (age, diet, m/f, weight, background prior to acquiring, etc.) and if there is a health problem, go back, update the info with the problem, the treatment prescribed, and affects of treatment.
Just a thought...

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#106612 - 05/31/06 11:20 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is where great minds work together for a common goal. Outstanding idea. Seems as though I recall some analytical and statistical data being collected, but not on a main stream data base for all to input. This would be quite a feat! Great idea!

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#106613 - 05/31/06 11:31 AM Cause? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not asking treatments, that's a differant bag of worms; depening on the bug in the infection. I'm looking more for a SOLID cause....

Ok, so, Hoju, what do you feed, and was there inside mouth lesion/skin breakage? Or was it just an abcess with no obvious 'beginning area'?


They eat very sharp things in the wild, Mikey even mentioned scarab beetles, which are very spiny. Do they get lumpy jaw from hard food? My vets observations with her cases, are that most gliders do not have any gum/flesh issues, thus hard food would generally not be the common cause.

Also, for those of you with cultures, what bug was identified?

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#106614 - 06/03/06 12:22 PM Re: Cause? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


*sneaks this back into view*

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#106615 - 06/04/06 01:48 AM Re: Cause? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mine was abcess, and he cant determine the beginning area... But the vet was amazed that Caramel "wounded" herself and let the puss come out. Now the fur on her left side is half gone, but the wound is healing nicely.

I never fed mine with hard foods, and still got that abcess.

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#106616 - 06/04/06 01:52 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the wild gliders chew and strip bark from trees are these glider getting things to chew on. I would think this would help not hinder lumpy jaw. What do you think?????

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#106617 - 06/04/06 04:47 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Going off track here.. but here in Australia, Lumpy Jaw is an infection in the jawbone in Macropods which is the wallaby and kangaroo family. It results from poor diet/nutrition and poor hygiene and not how hard the food is that they eat. In fact, it is a common problem when roos are fed on diets of too much soft bread etc or kept contained in overcrowded often dirty areas.

Now I am not sure if the Lumpy Jaw which affects the Sugar Gliders in the US is the same Lumpy Jaw in the macropods in Australia or not but it would be interesting for some more research on this.

As for being the result of eating hard foods,when I watch my Gliders tear to bits bark and branches, I find it difficult to believe that eating hard foods can be attributed directly to Lumpy Jaw in gliders. After all, in the wild, they need to be able to chew in bark and branches to get their food requirements. Maybe the poor nutrition content of the hard food which these affected gliders are eating is the issue rather than how hard it is. This would tie in with the poor nutrition angle of the macropod Lumpy Jaw.

Maybe it's the bigger picture which people should be looking at. diet/nutritition/overcrowding/hygiene and if these are not a problem and a well cared for glider gets "Lumpy Jaw" then perhaps it may be an abcess, tooth issue, gum diseases etc and not actually Lumpy Jaw.

Cheers Marz

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#106618 - 06/04/06 08:49 PM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Interesting read Marz... Thanks!

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#106619 - 06/05/06 12:46 AM Re: Cause? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
No complete answer for you! - sorry!
I have posted info on Necrobacillosis here on GC in the past.

Lumpy jaw - Necrobacillosis, (jaw disease)is an acute necrosis of tissue, caused by a non-sporing anacrobic bacteria which can & does affect macropods & other marsupials.
It's most often fatal as antibiotic treatment is rarely successful. More than one organism has been isolated, & it is yet to be confirmed if they are related to the cause.
The area most commonly affected is the soft tissues & bones of the head, in particular the mandible & maxilla, gums & palate. However there has been less common cases of infection in the feet, tail, lungs, gastric mucosa & the liver.

It was once thought that the feeding of soft foods predisposd to lumpy jaw, as the gums become soft, & open to sharp awns penetrating the gums, allowing the bacteria to enter the soft tissue.

Poor husbandry, over-crowding, & not cleaning up the faeces on the ground all has a bearing on this disease. In most cases the animal will become lethargic, lose weight, have facial swellings, salivate & eventually become anorexic.

There has been cases of quite healthy & well fed animals contracting lumpy jaw & the occurrence of this disease in the wild has been observed. It is thought that tooth abscesses could also be a predisposing factor, leading to the bacteria's entry & then to ostemyelitis.
Macropods & other marsupials have been contracting Lumpy jaw for thousands of years, with the bones of many skulls found depicting this disease & even fossils have shown tell-tale signs.
(sorry so long)

I agree with Marz - this is not caused by hard substances they consume in their wild diets, nor in captive feeding of hard substances!


Edited by Pockets (06/05/06 01:12 AM)
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#106620 - 06/05/06 10:48 AM Re: Cause? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I agree with Marz - this is not caused by hard substances they consume in their wild diets, nor in captive feeding of hard substances!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Now, I don't feel so bad for seeming like a meanie when I used to say I didn't agree with this either.

It's silly to think that an animal that deals with hard substances in the mouth as a natural part of their behaviour and biology would be getting lumpy jaw from consuming hard foods. I'm assuming those who were promoting such an idea didn't read publications like Marsupial Nutrition. Has anyone ever seen how spiny and hard scarabid beetles are? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#106621 - 06/05/06 10:54 AM Re: Cause? [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
It never made any sense to me either. What is the saying ??? If you don't use it you lose it. Just like the brain I believe that holds true for the teeth.

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#106622 - 06/06/06 02:05 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
For Riker, my one with the chronic issues, he was fed hard pellets until I got him at around 6 weeks OOP. He was 1 1/2 when he first got his infection, and from the age of 3 months OOP until then his staple was Darcy's (Ensure). We changed him to BML last July.

Note: up until his first infection he would get an occasional peanut half as a treat...maybe two per month. Through all of the recurrences he has had nothing that has the potential to scratch the gums.

vet could find nothing visibly wrong in mouth or throat, all of his teeth were exceptionally clean and white (no tartar or discoloration of any kind, or stuck food)...none were sensitive to touch or probing, and gums and tongue, throat, roof of mouth, inside of cheeks looked good with no visible wounds or damage.

With Riker, there is no concentrated pocket of infection-it is diffuse through the tissue and spreads through the right side of his face, cheek, under eye, sinus, and head.

Speculation: Thoughs my vets and I have had is that it could be allergy triggered, or enter through a weakness in the sinus (since I have had chronic sinus infections for years, from damage to my sinuses, I can believe that)...unfortunately, no way to find out for certain, just speculation.

Hope this helps you.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#106623 - 06/06/06 10:35 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hrm, That's what I figured with hard foods, but, without evidence to back it up, I can't say one way or the other. That's why I was asking :-D

I wonder if natural fed barks and stuff decrease occurances in captive bred gliders?

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#106624 - 06/07/06 03:59 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I would say that hard foods (which are not a glider's natural tendency) could compound the problem, or make an infection more likely. They scrape the bark away in the wild, to wound the tree and make the sap weep....but they do not chew on the bark or eat it, as far as I know.

However, a glider can get an infection with no hard foods in the diet whatsoever, as well. I know of a few causes...injury from fighting or accident, snagging a sharp nail in the mouth, tooth problems. I am sure there are others.

I keep Riker totally away from hard foods because with recurrent infections to start with-and almost $5,000.00 in vet bills for ONE glider, I really don't want to tempt fate. The fact that he had hard foods as a baby, questionable parentage, etc. could all have some part in whatever causes him to be susceptible to these. My thoughts are that like with people, the causes can be many and diverse...and not always something you can point a finger at and say "this is what did it". With infections where there is a defined pocket of infection, I would also be inclined to think wound or injury, with a point of entry, somewhere...though more common, that would not necessarily be exclusive of other possibilities in that scenario.

And Mikey...there's a big difference between getting through the shell (carapice or exoskeleton) of a bug to get at the good stuff inside...than hard pellets that break apart and scrape everything. I wouldnt' think they ate the shell, just got thru it.

Have you ever eaten Captain Crunch cereal....and had it tear the roof of your mouth apart? You can't tell me there are foods that don't cause damage, after I've spent 3 days with a sore mouth from that! If you haven't...your life's not complete! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> Stuff tastes great...but it's a painful experience. You haven't tried it, PM your addy, and I'll be happy to mail you a box or 2.

I would agree that nutrition, or perhaps even nutrition, parental nutrition, prior malnutrition could contribute to weaknesses. In humans, these can cause lifelong problems even when diet has been fixed. But I do think hard foods can compound the problem, and the hard pellets available here I wouldn't give to a cat or dog, let alone a glider.


Edited by Xfilefan (06/07/06 04:12 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#106625 - 06/07/06 06:02 AM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]I find this discussion to be very interesting since I have two gliders who have experienced this type of infection. They are both older gliders (about 10-12 years old at time of infection) and neither have been fed any hard foods (except insects) during their time with me (3-1/2 years), but I can't attest to their diet before coming to me.
When Cricky had his abscess, a culture & sensitivity was run and it was determined that he was infected with strep. The strep was found in his sinuses as well, so it is believed that it all started with a sinus infection gone awry.
When Pika had hers, we were not able to obtain enough tissue/fluid to run a C&S, so we have no idea what the underlying factors/bacteria may have been from. Neither Cricky nor Pika had any abrasions or wounds inside their mouths.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#106626 - 06/07/06 02:05 PM Re: attributes to "lumpy jaw" [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen, I agree with the hard pellets and such, gliders use their bottem teeth to shred away bark and break the harder exoskeletons in bugs, and not the acutal 'molars' persay. When Zeebo first came and ate pellets, poor boy had to side gum it just to break it up! Still some people don't even feed bugs because of the lumpy jaw fear, and sometimes, if they are going to get it, I think they are going to get it no matter what. I'll blame pellets and such before bugs, not that is isn't a probable cause.

Suz, you are the second person that I know who cultured 'strep'. Danic's glider had that too. Schlep asked what KIND of strep, would you be able to obtain which form of strep it would be? If you know, put it in my little spot on lumpy jaw attributes on health and hygiene.

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