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#1071473 - 02/13/11 05:46 PM CA supplement HPW
Suggie25
Unregistered


Can a calcium supplement be added to HPW mix to bring up the ratio? My guys hate most high calcium foods. So I am worried. I think someone suggested 900mg per batch made.

If not can you explain why not? Are CA supplements bad? I know they are supposed to get it from their food but if they are not eating it- then what?

Thanks.

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#1071474 - 02/13/11 05:48 PM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
You CAN add a calcium supplement to HPW to help with the ratio but I am NOT the right person to answer this question. Candy generally answers this one well - hopefully she'll be around soon to help you out! smile
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#1071488 - 02/13/11 06:06 PM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
900 mg calcium added to a batch of HPW will bring the ratio up from 1:1 to 2.1:1. This will allow you to choose a wider variety of fruits and vegetables and still keep the overall average ratio of feedings between 1.5:1 and 2:1.

900 mg calcium is:
3/4 tsp Now brand Calcium Carbonate (1200 mg calcium per tsp)
OR
2 tsp Now brand Calcium Citrate (700 mg per 1.5 tsp)

If you choose another brand you will need to calculate the amount to use based on the mg calcium per tsp of that product.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1071519 - 02/13/11 07:29 PM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: CandyOtte]
Kali
Unregistered


I ordered NOW calcium carbonate today based on Candy's advice. I am excited to try it! And now I won't have to base my fruit and veggie choices so much on calcium content and then worry when they don't eat much of them (they aren't big on turnip greens, lol). With the CA suppliment added to their HPW, they can eat more of what they like! wink

If you have trouble finding NOW locally, here is where I ordered it from (linked from Candy's site): NOW calcium carbonate

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#1071682 - 02/14/11 06:35 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
Suggie25
Unregistered


Thanks for the info!

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#1072597 - 02/16/11 09:42 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
Holydust
Unregistered


I truly apologize if I am hijacking the thread, but I am just as concerned about making too many threads on a related topic, thus making it harder for people to find information (which has been a problem for me here when I'm looking for info) as I am about potentially derailing a discussion. So my best guess is to just ask here.


Okay, I've seen this advice several times in my browsing this morning, and it's making sense to me. As someone who is considering feeding HPW, I've had questions.

I'm feeling ditzy, here. What's not making sense to me (and I know this shouldn't be a question directed at Candy, since she didn't design the diet -- BUT, she seems to understand the strengths and weaknesses of multiple diets and gives good answers about them, so it can't hurt to ask) is: the HPW diet standard seems to depend on the selection of fruits and veggies to bring the Ca:P ratio to its best value, without the aid of a supplement...

That said, here are the points giving me question marks:

1. If one were to add Candy's recommended amount of Ca supplement to HPW, how would one alter their decision in fruits and veggies to compensate? Do they need to? (see #4.)

2. Does the Ca:P ratio need to be 1.5-2:1 with every single feeding, for the meal overall? Nevermind, I now understand that it does.

3. Is the addition of the powder meant to cover any slack in the ratio left from a less ideal fruit/veggie addition? In theory, the HPW is supposed to be peachy keen as long as the owner picks up the slack with the fruits/veggies, right?

4. Finally (and I know I'm asking a ton of questions, and for that, I'm truly sorry), is it really true that excess calcium will just be discarded, and it can't hurt to add some anyway? (I have heard both that too much is fine, and that too much can cause crystals and kidney stones. The latter sure makes sense, since I know it happens in humans...)

Edit: Please forgive me if I asked anything that's been re-hashed over and over -- I just found this thread and will be reading it over in the meantime, as it likely answers some of my questions.


Edited by Holydust (02/16/11 10:01 AM)

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#1072785 - 02/16/11 04:08 PM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Yes the HPW diet as written needs to be fed with fruits and vegetables that are collectively on the positive side - more calcium than phosphorus - and ideally the complete meal will be in the 1.5:1 to 2:1 range.

Adding the extra calcium to HPW takes away the stress of so closely matching fruits and vegetables to get that higher amount of calcium. You can choose from a wider variety of fruits and vegetables and still maintain the necessary average ratio.

The ratio does not need to be above 1.5:1 each and every day but over several days time the total average ratio should be above 1.5:1. So if you do feed lower calcium fruits and or vegetables once in a while, as long as other days you are above the goal ratio it will average out.

Yes the body will excrete the excess of any vitamin or mineral unless it is extremely excessive. Adding 900 mg calcium to HPW is not excessive and is much lower than the calcium content of BML - which is still a good diet if fed with the mixed vegetables to balance out the extra calcium.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1072970 - 02/16/11 11:15 PM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: CandyOtte]
Holydust
Unregistered


Wonderful, Candy, thank you. I see what you're saying now. I didn't know that the amount most people are recommending (900mg) wouldn't be considered "excessive" since I didn't know if "excessive" would happen just by adding any at all. Now I get it -- thank you! I know it's hard; we don't exactly have a % recommended daily value for things like calcium where gliders are concerned, so it's rough.

I really appreciate the help.

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#1072999 - 02/17/11 12:37 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
If you guys have any questions on HPW you can contact Peggy directly at critterlove@critterlove.com since she no longer is a member here, she does not necessarily agree with the adding of calcium to the diet.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#1073026 - 02/17/11 01:54 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I also wanted to add that any changes made to a diet should be taken up with the person who created the diet. The person who wrote that diet had specific things in mind they were shooting for, and any changes will throw that specific diet off a bit.

It is best to contact the writer of that diet with any questions and concerns about amounts. Now I know not everyone on here knows who wrote which diet, but never fear, we will tell ya roflmao

As Adri said, it is best to contact Peggy about it. Just as any changes made or concerns with the "Blended diet" should be directed to Candy, or if someone had questions on BML it is best to ask Bourbon.

As for excess calcium in the diet
you can do a google search and find the effects of too much calcium. here's one to get ya started
http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/coping-with-cancer/coping-physically/calcium/your-body-and-calcium
http://parathyroid.com/high-calcium.htm

SOME and I stress SOME nutrients are passed from the body as waste when we ingest too much, such as Vit C. HOWEVER calcium is not one of those. Too much calcium will stay in the body and CALCIFY organs causing them to be blocked and/or shut down. Now this is true of HUMANS. Is it true of sugar gliders? I think it is, but I am not a vet or doctor either.

I would rather err on the side of caution with calcium, as too little in the diet is easier to fix than too much, which cannot be fixed.

I personally shoot for a 1.5:1 ratio in my diet, but what people seem to misunderstand that this number can be very misleading also.

It isnt JUST the ratio that needs to be healthy, but the AMOUNT of calcium in the diet. And unfortunately no one has a RDA (recommended daily allowance) chart for gliders.

Following the feeding guidelines of people that have successfully kept and bred gliders for a long time (say 10 years)is a good start.

added:
I also want to add here that when you research diets, it is also a good idea to look at what gliders were "designed" to eat. That would mean taking a good look at their diet in the wild. Just a thought...


Edited by JillMarie (02/17/11 01:59 AM)
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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#1073027 - 02/17/11 02:00 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: JillMarie]
Holydust
Unregistered


Thanks, guys. smile As for me, I'll see about contacting Peggy if I have any concerns. For now, I can shoot for making sure I'm meeting the requirements for the calcium with the fruits/veggies I supply.

Now that I understand the math (it's kind of fun), I don't see any reason why I should worry if I'm being extra meticulous about what fruits and veggies I feed along with HPW. Once again, I appreciate it.


Edited by Holydust (02/17/11 02:00 AM)

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#1073035 - 02/17/11 02:35 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I use this Sugar glider safe fruits and veggies when determining what to feed my suggies. Once you've learned the content of each one, it really isn't hard to do. I've done it for so long, I only check the list when I see something new I want to try. I think it's fun to figure out what to buy and how much. I do puree my fruits and veggies together and mix in the HPW, so I know my suggies get a nutritious diet. While reading over this list, please keep in mind, the oxalate content. Just because something is high in calcium, low phosphorus, doesn't always mean it's good, because of the oxalate content. High oxalate content will inhibit the absorption of calcium.

For example:
Strawberries (frozen) = high oxalates,
Concord grapes = high oxalates
bing and sour cherries = low oxalates
green and yellow plums = low oxalates

Collard Greens may be high in CA, 52 and low PH, 4, with a ratio of 13.00 but it's very high in oxalates. (I had an oxalate chart before I formatted my computer and now can't find one, so if anyone has a link, I'd appreciate it! I think it was on a reptile page?) You have to balance that with a food that has a much lower oxalate content, like the cherries and plums mentioned above.
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1073036 - 02/17/11 02:40 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: suggiemom1980]
Holydust
Unregistered


Is it okay to feed a combination that is neither high nor low in oxalates with fruits/veggies that are simply low in oxalates?

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#1073038 - 02/17/11 02:55 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I look for ratios first, then consider the oxalates. If the oxalates are med or high, then I need to find a low oxalate food that's high in CA, low in PH, to balance it to the ratios I'm looking for.
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1073040 - 02/17/11 03:01 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: suggiemom1980]
Holydust
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: suggiemom_1980
I look for ratios first, then consider the oxalates. If the oxalates are med or high, then I need to find a low oxalate food that's high in CA, low in PH, to balance it to the ratios I'm looking for.


So the low oxalates brings down the high oxalates of the other foods?

Is it bad to only have low oxalate foods the same way it's bad to have too low or too high a Ca:P ratio? I guess I don't understand what oxalates are good for and that's why I'm confused. I understood Ca:P but I don't know where oxalates fit in.

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#1073086 - 02/17/11 08:04 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: suggiemom1980]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: suggiemom_1980
(I had an oxalate chart before I formatted my computer and now can't find one, so if anyone has a link, I'd appreciate it! I think it was on a reptile page?)
Connie, here is the feeding chart I've used for years for my beardie. It doesn't have oxalates for every food item, but does have notes if too high or too low. Beautiful Dragons Feeding Chart
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1073151 - 02/17/11 10:39 AM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: nancy1202]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: nancy1202
Originally Posted By: suggiemom_1980
(I had an oxalate chart before I formatted my computer and now can't find one, so if anyone has a link, I'd appreciate it! I think it was on a reptile page?)
Connie, here is the feeding chart I've used for years for my beardie. It doesn't have oxalates for every food item, but does have notes if too high or too low. Beautiful Dragons Feeding Chart

That's the link I had! Thanks!
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1073880 - 02/18/11 06:53 PM Re: CA supplement HPW [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey

off_topic but since you asked:
here is some interesting info I found on oxalates and how they refer to human health
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48
http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/kidneystonediet/


Edited by JillMarie (02/18/11 06:59 PM)
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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