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#1078374 - 02/27/11 05:41 PM bad start, can it be fixed?
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Hi there, I just got my little guys yesterday. One is four months and the other is 8 week oop. The little guy is so sweet, he will let you hold him and will go in a pouch, doesn't crab at all. The older one and I may have gotten off on the wrong foot, and I have the bite marks to prove it, on both hands. He is VERY crabby, and when he bites, he does not let go! I am so frustrated that that I may have ruined the whole bonding process! I even called the breeder this morning in tears about it. To which she did say she would exchange it for a baby if I really wanted, but it will be a week before she will have one to exchange. I know that it has been less than 24 hours, so I shouldn't be freaking out, but I am. I started reading after this mornings attacks about bonding, and it was suggested to wait a few days to even take them out of their cage, but the lady I bought them from was encouraging me to play with them from the begining. And looking back at the biting, I think that I may have been a little rough with the little guy (not on purpose), and maybe that is why he attacked me, plus it did scare me quite a bit! I am just wondering if we still have a chance to turn things around. Any advice would be welcome!

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#1078378 - 02/27/11 05:44 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
FuzzierThanMost Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 529
Loc: Rhode Island
There is always a way, it will get better, hes just freaked out right now. Give him time and try to accociate your hands with treats, he will come around. Good luck smile
_________________________
~Ella~

:grey: Fuzz LightYear
:grey: Fuzzméralda
:grey: The Little Furmaid
:grey: Furora
:grey: Furcules
:grey: Fuzz Charming

Kitties, Faith and KitKat

Doggy, Dingo

And the person who puts up with it all, Christopher<3 <3 <3

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#1078380 - 02/27/11 05:47 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
Yes, you CAN turn things around with the vicious biter! Maybe with the older crabbier one, you need to just back up & back off....and start over. Gonna send you a link to my FAVORITE article about bonding if you haven't read it already...but just remember: gliders can't read clocks and calendars, so you have to go by the readings that HE'S giving you and however long it takes is how long it takes.

http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugarglider/bonding.html

These words are coming from someone who had 41 (yes I counted them ALL) bites from ONE young man in ONE DAY. Now, some 4 years later, if he bites me it's an accident and he gives me this "I'm so sorry, Mom, but you SCARED me!" kind of look as he buries his face in the fleece mlove My other measuring stick was a boy who lived at an animal shelter for YEARS and had NO reason to trust us humans. shakehead Two years later, he's a DARLING DOLL BABY...not a climb into my hand & click kind of guy, but a MAJOR improvement from the first day I met him!
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#1078391 - 02/27/11 06:18 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Thank you so much for the link! and for sharing your experiance. It is really nice to hear that someone has had biters that are now sweet. I don't want to give up, it is just so scary being a first time snuggie mommy. There is so much to learn!

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#1078397 - 02/27/11 06:47 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
Dear, my first suggie walked through my front door in 2003; thanks to one of my sons bringing ONE home from work with him one night...I knew NOTHING (nor did he, in fact) about suggies. And it seems that EVERY TIME that I sit in front of the computer at this website, I'm picking up something new even after 8 years! thumb But...for some reason I think I was MEANT to be owned by these critters (like how I put that? roflmao ) and every day brings a new opportunity to learn something about them.

There's a BLUE TON of stuff to learn, from diets to bonding to housing to illnesses. The FIRST thing I want you to do is start working on putting an emergency kit together...you can choose to buy one OR you can "do it yourself", whichever...but you will want to start working on THAT. Second will be diet (presuming that's already been established by the breeder you got them from?); then you can expand into toys and all the nice-to-have stuff.

(There was something I was going to point out.....got distracted and it ran away from me. shakehead It'll find its way back.....)
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#1078411 - 02/27/11 07:07 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Well, when it comes to diet, the breeder I bought them from said she was doing the ledbeaters diet. She was feeding them pellets, fruits and veggies, then giving them the mix every 3-5 days? I am not sure that I agree with the pellets. I bought all the stuff to make the HPW diet before I bought them, as I thought that it would be the easiest for me to do, and still nutrisious. Last night was their first night. They didn't eat hardly any of it and they slept all night. But when I talked to the breeder, she stated that they ate durring the day and were awake all day yesterday, so they probably weren't hungry and were tired. She sent me home with some pellets. Thought that tonight I would give them the HPW diet, but also put some pellets in their kitchen, since they are used to it, until they get used to the new one.

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#1078444 - 02/27/11 08:04 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
Of course it could be fixed hug2

As far as a diet change, give it about a week... see if they'll eat it. If not, you could try another diet you are comfortable with. Sometimes it takes time, but you'll get it right between the 3 of you smile

If you are trying the HPW diet, then you don't need pellets... but you know that already. wink
_________________________
*Whatever I said, I said it with a Smile*

wave Sari

:grey:Sugar:grey:Nibbles:grey:Destiny

Rapid Runner *Sold Out!

Suggie Smart Mart *Home of The Hippie Pouch & Suggie Chandelier

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#1078453 - 02/27/11 08:17 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 1516
Loc: North Dakota
I just got my suggies yesterday smile right off the bat Baby Face (haven't figured out a name for her yet lol) didn't like me. She bit me once and crabs if I get too close. Then Ezmerelda (think I might keep her name) crabs but hasn't tried to bite, she'll take treats but quick lol! I too tried to put them in a bonding pouch today and only Cas (short for Casanova cause he's got 4 girls lol) was really wanting to go in with whom I'm guessing is Steak (again thinking of a name for her.) Cas and Giznose (she just ran to a new pouch today) are about 5 years old, Steak and Ezmerelda are about 3 years old and Baby Face is the youngest at around 2 years old.

I figured I'd get the ones I had in the pouch today to start liking me and maybe the others will see that I'm not such a bad person lol! So maybe with a little help your older sugar glider will see that you aren't so bad when your younger one likes to come up to you.

Remember, treats are your best friend lol! Good luck smile
_________________________
Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com

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#1078457 - 02/27/11 08:31 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Did you really get 5 all at once?! Wow! I like the name Ezmerelda! I have yet to name mine as well, lol. Think I'll wait for them to calm down a bit. That way I can pick a name that fits their personality. smile

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#1078460 - 02/27/11 08:42 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 1516
Loc: North Dakota
Yeah I did lol! They were a colony and the girl preferred they stay together. I don't mind smile they're fun. And like you I'm waiting to figure out the rest of the names til I know what will fit them. My friend jokingly said Casanova and I couldn't stop thinking about it lol! I think Baby Face is going to be the biggest challenge, she wasn't socialized very well so she isn't so into people. I'm determined to get her to come around eventually smile
_________________________
Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com

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#1078464 - 02/27/11 08:52 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
idea THAT'S what I was going to mention!! Not to panic too badly if they didn't eat well the first day or 2....it's NOT UNUSUAL for that to happen while they're adjusting to their new world, the smells & sounds & faces. (tidbit of the hour: that's how gliders identify with their world, IN THAT ORDER! smell #1, sound #2, sight #3) Changing them from old diet to new should be "phased in" a little at a time UNLESS their diet was way not good...so a little HPW and a little of the biscuits for the next couple days and backing off to JUST the HPW will help them adjust.
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#1078513 - 02/27/11 10:14 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
Yaniah Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 709
Loc: Illinois
My very first glider, you couldnt even look at him, with out him going totally crazy. 6 months later of constant bonding, and letting him come to me on his own terms, 3 years later, he is still to this day my most bonded baby to me. It jsut takes a little time. Sometimes it takes time, sometimes it happens right away, dont give up on him. smile He is just a bit scared.
_________________________
~Yaniah~
Married to A very loving & understanding Husband
New Hope Rescue
Mommy to
Suggies:Loki,Zoey,Sprite,Nova,Astro,Saphira,Adara,Goliath.
Chinchillas:Esclipse,Pikachu,Skeeter,Amara,Precious,Nevaeh, Cosmo,Midnite,&Ambrose
Rabbits:Oreo&Bugsy
Dogs:Baron&Camieel

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#1078734 - 02/28/11 12:18 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
Dani_D Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 189
Loc: New York
When I first got Shelby she was a biter! She was so scared and bit and scratched me like crazy! I wouldn't worry too much. Give it time and a lot off patience and I'm sure your new little guy will bond great with you! Trust me, in time, it will be worth all the bites and scratches! Shelby is the sweetest little girl now. The only bites she gives now are little love bites/kisses smile Good Luck!
_________________________
Dani

mommy of two little munchkins <3

Shelby :grey: & Roush :wfb:

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#1078803 - 02/28/11 01:46 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
GliderGuyVA Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 343
Loc: Northern VA.
They can be brought around. I got a female 6 months ago and she was the most unruly Glider I have been around. Crabbing, lunging, and bitting me all the time. With lots of patience and time she is now a sweetie.
_________________________
Slave to:
My Wife
Four - Dogs
Two - Cat's
Four - Ferrets
Eight plus - Gliders

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#1078878 - 02/28/11 04:16 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: minkasmom]
Caylan
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: minkasmom
Yes, you CAN turn things around with the vicious biter! Maybe with the older crabbier one, you need to just back up & back off....and start over. Gonna send you a link to my FAVORITE article about bonding if you haven't read it already...but just remember: gliders can't read clocks and calendars, so you have to go by the readings that HE'S giving you and however long it takes is how long it takes.

http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugarglider/bonding.html

These words are coming from someone who had 41 (yes I counted them ALL) bites from ONE young man in ONE DAY. Now, some 4 years later, if he bites me it's an accident and he gives me this "I'm so sorry, Mom, but you SCARED me!" kind of look as he buries his face in the fleece mlove My other measuring stick was a boy who lived at an animal shelter for YEARS and had NO reason to trust us humans. shakehead Two years later, he's a DARLING DOLL BABY...not a climb into my hand & click kind of guy, but a MAJOR improvement from the first day I met him!


GREAT article, also helped me a lot, thanks for the question and answer!

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#1078906 - 02/28/11 05:55 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Thank you all so much for your input. It makes being a glider mommy so much easier knowing she has a support system in place when she has so many questions. Here is an update on my biter. I took him to the vet this morning, because I noticed last night that he was limping, and BAD news.... Baby is very sick. I called the people I bought him from. and they said they would take him back and exchange one with me. I took him back, but they have no gliders at the moment. So I am waiting until this weekend to get baby number two. Now I know why he was so mean, the poor thing was in pain.

BUT now I am even more confused after talking with my vet. Everywhere I have read, it says get more than one sugar glider, they NEED another one to be healthy. But my vet told me that info is UNTRUE?! She says the gliders will bond together, or they will bond with me and not eachother, then try to hurt one another. So what do I do? Just keep the one that I have, or go and get that second baby this weekend? And if I get it, is it ok to put in the same cage as baby #1?

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#1078936 - 02/28/11 06:55 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
Very sad to hear the outcome of all of this...but you're going to have your hands full. Introductions will be interesting....even from the same breeder, you could have a problem with the new pairing getting along. I HIGHLY recommend that you follow the protocol of a 30-day quarantine with the new little one...just in case.

I wish Baby improved health....hope it's something that he'll recover from. There's always a reason why they are "biters": either physical problems or how they were treated before they came to you answers 99% of the questions. The challenge comes with trying to figure out WHAT it is.... shakehead

And Caylan, thank you for your input as well. Anytime either of you need some help with the subject of bonding, if I can't answer your questions I can at least direct you to someone who can! hug2
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#1078937 - 02/28/11 06:56 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
Caylan
Unregistered


I'm SO sorry to hear that! I just got Lego and Elli last night and I would hate to think something would happen to either of them. It's hard being a new mom. I'm petrified every second.

I think the general opinion is get two, and they will prob get along best if they are neutered (if they are both boys or you don't want to breed). Sugar Gliders are just too social and normally live in large groups, think of their native environment. haha I hope they bond with people too! I just got two little boys yesterday; they are brothers though. They reallly really really love each other.

I'm pretty sure the only case you should even think about having only one is if you're willing to put in an ENORMOUS amount of effort into socializing with him/her for the rest of his or her life. Even then it just doesn't seem right.

Wish you the best

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#1078939 - 02/28/11 07:01 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: minkasmom]
Caylan
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: minkasmom

And Caylan, thank you for your input as well. Anytime either of you need some help with the subject of bonding, if I can't answer your questions I can at least direct you to someone who can! hug2


Thanks! The forums are becoming my suggie's new best friend haha. I've already gotten my mealworms, new diet mix ordered (HPW Plus), and a 15 set fleece cage set.

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#1078942 - 02/28/11 07:03 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
Caylan
Unregistered


On a note of bad starts, one of my little ones, Lego, got out of it's pouch and actually glided around and I had to coax it back into it's pouch but it seemed scared and unhappy frown. I think that's a pretty bad start!


Edited by Caylan (02/28/11 07:34 PM)

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#1078963 - 02/28/11 07:26 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
30 day quarentine? I only have one big cage and one travel cage that is pretty small. I can't really afford another huge cage.... frown why do you have to seperate them for 30 days if you get them checked out by a vet?

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#1079001 - 02/28/11 08:49 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
Tanya
Unregistered


The reason for the quarantine is to prevent one getting the other sick! One could have parasites of some kind of illness that is not showing symptoms. It is recommended that you have a fecal float and smear done as soon as possible and then again after 30 days to make sure they are parasite free. I also just got a new baby girl, Chloe, and have her in a smaller cage for her quarantine time and after 30 days I will introduce her to my other two.

Your vet must not be all that familiar with gliders, because what he said is NOT true! Suggies are very social animals and will become VERY depressed without a friend. They can become withdrawn, and even self mutilate if left on there own. Yes, they have you but what if you have to go away suddenly or end up in hospital or something, they will be very lonely.
Think of how you would feel living with another species with no other human contact! You would love your owners but would really miss having someone like yourself to talk to and cuddle while sleeping and play all night with while your owners are asleep.

I am really sorry to hear about your sick baby, did the vet say what was wrong? Is it something that the other baby could catch? I hope you can get a new baby soon!!
Welcome to GC and ALWAYS feel free to ask any thing here!!

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#1079160 - 03/01/11 07:43 AM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Yes, that was what I thought! They need to have a companion. I can spend lot's of time with my snuggies on my days off, but I also work 12 hour shifts, and some days I can't spend 3-4 hours with them that they need if they are alone. Plus I feel bad already that his cage mate had to leave. I could tell last night that he was missing him already. frown But I am going to get another on Friday. So it is ok to have them in a smaller cage, for the quarentine? can they be in the same room? How do you start introductions? Sorry so many questions, but I am sooo new at this stuff, and you can read and read and read all about these guys, and you still can't keep up with it all, it seems. :/

The other little guy that I returned had really swollen feet. The vet was thinking it was a bone disease, but we didn't do ex-rays as I was planning on returning him. Feel really bad for the little guy, and I hope that they give him the medical care that he needs. And I really hope whatever it was, was not contagious.

My little guy (who I still have, and still haven't named, lol) seems to be doing really great! He only crabs when he is in his pouch in his cage and I talk to him. But when he is playing and awake and I talk to him through the bars, he doesn't crab at all. And if I reach into the cage to let him sniff me, or put his food in there and take the dirty dishes out, he doesn't seem to mind. I had him in the pouch yesterday all day, and he crabbed a little when I moved around too much. But he calms down pretty quickly. I might have put him in the pouch a little too early, but we had to go to the vet, so I just kept him in there all day. And he did pretty good, so I think it is ok. I did leave him in his cage for 24 hours to get used to the smells and sounds.

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#1079171 - 03/01/11 08:51 AM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Ok, I found the info on the quarentine. I don't think that should be a problem. I got another cage online and should be here around the same time frame that I get my new snuggie. I am wondering, I have another cage set to put into the other cage, but I only have one wheel. Will the second baby be ok without a wheel for 30 days? The snuggie I have now LOVES his wheel, and it is a hoot to watch him on it.

One question, I live in a small two bedroom appartment. Would it be ok to put the cage on the other side of the same room, instead of a completely different room? I have a cage cover on my big cage to keep the mess to a minimal. If I do the same to the other cage, I think it would be ok. Any comments about that?

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#1079193 - 03/01/11 10:10 AM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
lilangels Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 3745
Loc: Butte, Mt. USA
Singing I don't think you can ever get too much pouch time with your new baby. This is how they learn you are someone they can trust and love. I really suggest you also go get a small tent that you can set yup to have some binding time in. It is absolutely amazing when you are in an enclosed space where they can run and fly and play and climb all over you without having to worry about them getting lost or hurt. Trust me it is soooo worth the $30 or $40 it costs to buy a small tent.
_________________________
Connie: soon to be wife to Harold, mom to 3 children, 2 precious kitties, and my treasured gliders.

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#1079258 - 03/01/11 12:12 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Oh yes I plan on tent time. smile My little girl is sooo anxious to play with our little man. I keep trying to explain that we have to wait and be patient, but she is 6 1/2, so it is still a bit hard for her to get that concept. lol She thinks the thing is so darn cute, she just wants to play with it. I told her that we are going to get a tent and that her and I can go inside with him, and we will let him explore us. She is really excited about that. Right now I am just teaching her that she needs to be calm and speak quietly around him. So hopefully it goes well when the time comes. For now she keeps going up to the cage and talking to him as well. She also is putting little blankets in her shirt to get her sent on them and we put them in his pouch so that he can learn her sent too. She also carried the pouch for a bit yesterday. Is it ok to put the pouch he sleeps in inside the bonding pouch if he is still crabbing? Or should I wait until he stops crabbing at me to put him back into the bonding pouch? I have only had him since Saturday, so less than three days. Haven't put him in th pouch today, becuase I am not sure if I should. But I am still talking to him. Also, I have one more question...I keep trying to give him treats through the bars when I talk to him, either a mealie, or some honey on my finger, and he isn't interested. Is that normal? He will just crab and lunge a bit, then when I don't budge, he just burrows back into his pouch. frown

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#1079288 - 03/01/11 12:47 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
Caylan
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: singingintherain
Also, I have one more question...I keep trying to give him treats through the bars when I talk to him, either a mealie, or some honey on my finger, and he isn't interested. Is that normal? He will just crab and lunge a bit, then when I don't budge, he just burrows back into his pouch. frown


I'm guessing it's normal because mine won't do that with me either! I even got live meal worms and crickets and they still won't take it from me... and just crab when I dip a delicious honey coated finger in..... Time I guess!

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#1079293 - 03/01/11 12:52 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: ]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Ok, thanks. Glad I'm not the only one being ignored. lol

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#1079348 - 03/01/11 02:41 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
lilangels Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 3745
Loc: Butte, Mt. USA
I think it is very normal for them to refuse food from your hand when they are so scared. My last two rescues still won't take anything from my hand a few months into this. I try to pack them for at least a few hours a day in the bonding pouch and touch them softly whenever I get the chance. They had been doing way better until the lil girl taffy got pregnant and now they are both being mean again.
I have a 4 yr old daughter who absolutely love the gliders. She so much wanted tent time last night but I wanted the glider's 1st time to be very calm and relaxing so I did it after the kids went to bed. Tonight I'm going to try letting Hailee come in and sit with me for a while. Wish us luck smile
_________________________
Connie: soon to be wife to Harold, mom to 3 children, 2 precious kitties, and my treasured gliders.

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#1079511 - 03/01/11 07:48 PM Re: bad start, can it be fixed? [Re: singingintherain]
singingintherain Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Franklin, NC
Oh that is great to hear that another mom is doing tent time with her kiddo! laugh I won't be doing tent time until this weekend probably. I have to work tommorrow and the next day, so I can't wear my little man in the pouch those two days, guess it gives him more time to get used to his new home. smile But then I have a week off, and plan on putting him in the pouch every day. smile Please let me know how the tent night went. I am very eager for ideas. My little girl can't stand it that I won't let her hold him yet. When we went to get him, the first thing that came out of her mouth was "that one is MINE!" It was love at first sight for sure. Poor kid. But I keep telling her that the longer we wait to play with him (meaning the longer she waits) the nicer he will be to her. It seems to do the trick for the moment, but I don't really think she gets it. frown

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