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#1081502 - 03/06/11 08:04 AM The Pollen Debate
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I have been reading some threads about pollen on here, and on some other forums. It seems there was some active discussions about the amount of pollen in a sugar glider diet and what was considered to be a "healthy" amount.

There was certainly a ton of wonderful information, and a few opinions, provided from some very knowledgeable and experienced people. And I thank many of you for providing this information.

Many comparisons were made between captive gliders and wild gliders in regards to diets and pollen. More than once was stated the amount of pollen eaten by wild gliders.

But I do want to point out one flaw in this comparison, and ask if it is a valid flaw to point out. When speaking of wild gliders and pollen we need to remember that they are eating pollen RIGHT OUT OF THE FLOWER. And when we feed pollen to our captive gliders, we are feeding BEE POLLEN.

So, is there a nutritional difference between the two?

Is the amount of nutrition in each absorbed differently?

What about the TYPES of flowers the pollen comes from? Does this make it nutritionally different?

I spent a couple hours looking through searches on the internet, and the information found was mostly provided by people selling their products. Biased? maybe, maybe not. the tiny bit of info I have in natural healing books, added to the tiny bit I gleaned this morning, leads me to ASSUME there is indeed a difference. But could not find anything concrete. And certainly couldnt find any specific differences stated by worthy sites.

Did find one reference where bee pollen was nutritionally copied and fed to bees instead of real pollen, but they didnt survive on the copy pollen. Interesting indeed. So bees do add "something" to the pollen, which we in turn are feeding to our gliders.

Now for the practical experience at home. If I hand my gliders bee pollen granules, they look at me like I am crazy. They wont eat it. If I add pollen to their diet, which I do, I have to be careful to not add too much, or they refuse to eat it. BUT, if I go outside, and pick a pollen LOADED flower for them, they go crazy eating all the pollen from that flower, and doesnt matter what kind of flower either.

Addition thoughts, information anyone?








Edited by JillMarie (03/06/11 08:05 AM)
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#1081528 - 03/06/11 10:54 AM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 2346
Loc: South Africa
Very interesting topic! I have added it to my watched topic list and look forward to all the replies.
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#1081541 - 03/06/11 11:27 AM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
The amount of pollen has been discussed many times.

Until a little over a year ago the original HPW Recipe posted on Peggy's web page, and copied to MANY other web pages, included 2 TBS Bee Pollen per batch of HPW. That was apparently a typo on her web page that went overlooked until someone noted that the recipe in her book stated 1 TBS. Corrections were made by Peggy and most posters of the HPW diet but there are probably still a few pages floating around out there in cyperspace with the error.

Many gliders had been fed the HPW diet containing 2 TBS Bee pollen for quite some time based on the internet posted recipe. As far as I know, no one associated any health issues with the doubled amount of bee pollen. The biggest consequence noted at the time was that vets were commenting on the amount of bee pollen seen in fecal exams.

It is hard to say if the 1 TBS used in a batch of any glider diet is too much. Has anyone seen adverse results of using this amount of bee pollen?

It appears that any excess pollen passes through the glider gut. My vet has suggested omitting the Bee Pollen from my glider's diets for several days before bringing in fecals. It is easer to read the fecals when there is no bee pollen requiring closer examination to make sure it is not a parasite.
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#1081553 - 03/06/11 11:56 AM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
I was one of them that used the 2 tbls of bee pollen...and there was quite alot excreted out in the feces ( I do fecals everytime I go to my vets for ANYTHING, even to pick up flea pills for the dogs, Im prolly there at least once a month, often times 2 or 3 times)...Yes, it made it a longer process to do an accurate fecal analysis but I dont find it a problem now that I am only adding the 1 tablespoon of bee pollen, actually very few pollen in my fecals now, although there is some...

I have not noticed any difference in my gliders from the 2 tbls to the 1 tbls per batch of HPW other than the amount excreted in the feces...

My blood values (which have been excellent) have stayed the same

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#1081569 - 03/06/11 12:54 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I think your comment/question about the type of pollen is very interesting, Jill Marie. I imagine there is a difference, but enough flower pollen to feed gliders as a consistent part of the diet (and then you would run into what kind would be best, etc) would be hard to come by, whereas bee pollen is readily available.

Some of my gliders really like fresh flowers and go for the pollen first, but all of mine will eat bee pollen readily. I can hand them granules as a treat and they will snatch them up every time.
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~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1081574 - 03/06/11 01:03 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
http://longevity.about.com/od/antiagingfoods/a/bee_pollen.htm

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/lifestyle-guide-11/supplement-guide-bee-pollen
Pay attention to the "risks" on that site.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplement...e=2&tabno=3
Pay attention to BEE POLLEN Side Effects & Safety


Quote:
The February 2010 issue of "Therapeutic Apheresis and Dialysis" reported on a case of renal failure associated with the ingestion of nutritional supplements containing bee pollen.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/380390-how-much-bee-pollen-should-one-take/

http://www.ncahf.org/articles/a-b/beepollen.html
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#1081579 - 03/06/11 01:15 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Teresa, those were very interesting and informative! Esp the part about the renal failure. I'm wondering if this is why Roo has repeated UTI's, as does Calypso. I think I'm going to omit the bee pollen for a while and see if the UTI's stop.
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#1081581 - 03/06/11 01:25 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Most of the sites about bee pollen are posted by those selling the pollen. I found it interesting the law suit that was won because of the false advertising (fraud).

We have been seeing so many more cases of gliders with liver failure and it has to make people wonder.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1081600 - 03/06/11 02:07 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Liver failure has been around a long time in gliders and I don't believe that it is necessarily related to the pollen, as I remember a lot of cases before pollen was used regularly. I know several cases where the gliders never had pollen, but died from liver damage. I think there are so many things that can cause liver failure, that is why we don't know where to look...off the top of my head, I have heard arguments for Aflatoxins, too many vitamins, the wrong kind of vitamins, too much protein, environmental factors, etc.
_________________________
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1081613 - 03/06/11 02:57 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I agree Gretchen...liver failure has been a problem for quite some time. I was not saying it is the ONLY cause but could be ONE of the causes.

The liver is the body's filter system. Too much protein can cause liver issues. All the things you listed can be or have been contributing factors.

I question the amounts of bee pollen being given to gliders when most of the sites I've read (the pollen seller sites) say ONE tablespoon per day for an ADULT HUMAN. That isn't much compared to our size (I assume that to be an average adult human weighing 150 pounds). And they recommend that the human works UP to that amount.

Again, many of the sites claim that the enzymes in bee pollen are beneficial but the other (not vendor sites) state that the stomach acids neutralizes the enzymes making them useless and unabsorbed.

Most all the vendor sites say how packed full of vitamins bee pollen is. Well, that too is subjective based on where the pollen comes from and exact amounts are not known so how can anyone measure that against the other vitamins (and minerals) that are being given already?

And because it is considered an "herb", it isn't monitored for cleanliness either. Many of them contain fungus spores too. One site said as much as 40% fungus spores are found in bee pollen.

When undigested pollen is seen in the fecal samples, it is a pretty good indication that the glider is not processing it at all and too much is being given. What about the amounts that are being digested and processing through the liver?

Sadly, again, we are back to there not being any unbiased clinical studies done to show how much is appropriate (same as with the vitamins and other foods).

As with all things, it is up to the individual to decide what they want to feed their gliders. I was just providing sites with the "other side of the story" that differs from all the sites promoting (and selling) bee pollen.


After all, the title of the thread is "The Pollen Debate" and you can't have a debate without both sides.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1081629 - 03/06/11 03:56 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
WOW lots of great input here! Especially from Dancing, Thanks sooo much for the links and will be reviewing all of them! (havent read them yet, but will be later tonight)

But I still feel like this is what I really want to know:

Originally Posted By: JillMarie

But I do want to point out one flaw in this comparison, and ask if it is a valid flaw to point out. When speaking of wild gliders and pollen we need to remember that they are eating pollen RIGHT OUT OF THE FLOWER. And when we feed pollen to our captive gliders, we are feeding BEE POLLEN.

So, is there a nutritional difference between the two?

Is the amount of nutrition in each absorbed differently?

What about the TYPES of flowers the pollen comes from? Does this make it nutritionally different?


and I want to add this thought/question:
On other forums, they mentioned the diets used in Australia, and not much pollen being used. I wonder if this is because it is BEE pollen that is available, as opposed to FLOWER pollen?
_________________________
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^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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#1081637 - 03/06/11 04:51 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
CSteele Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1701
Loc: Elkhorn, WI
I have raised this question with the nutritionist that I am consulting with in regards to my diet that I am developing. I was told that the bee pollen supplies "protein" and various B vitamins...but she added that it is not "necessary" in a gliders diet because we can get those same nutrients from other locally available ingredients.

I am in agreement that bee pollen and flower pollen have different concentrations of nutrients and if we continue to include bee pollen in our diets, we should definitely compare an analysis of both.

I have an article from one of the vet journals that lists Sugar Gliders as one of 2 marsupials in Australia that is best able to digest the flower pollens (specifically Banksia flower pollen) when testing the feces of wild gliders, between 37 - 66% of pollen grains were empty, meaning they were digested.

So we know it is part of their diet but are we feeding something comparible or not?
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#1081685 - 03/06/11 08:14 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
There is a very big difference between flower pollen and bee pollen. Bee pollen is extremely concentrated and also contains "bee spit".

Also, bee pollen may contain the pollens from several different flowers. So nutritionally, they can vary greatly.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1081815 - 03/07/11 09:48 AM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: Dancing]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Just like to jump in quickly & mention that I have always fed pollens to my 'Little people' but disagree with it being added nightly to any diet.

'Each bee pollen pellet contains over two million flower pollen grains and one teaspoonful contains over 2.5 billion grains of flower pollen'
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#1081844 - 03/07/11 12:05 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
heidi Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1661
Loc: conway south carolina/ us
we have ground our bea pollen in a coffee grinder.we have also only added 1TBS every third night. I had never had a vet complain about it being in fecals.
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#1081917 - 03/07/11 03:52 PM Re: The Pollen Debate [Re: JillMarie]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Heidi - How many gliders are sharing the 1 TBS every third night? Which diet are you preparing?
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Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

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