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#109234 - 06/10/06 07:07 PM Gliders and UTI's
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Now, I have had Binx and Roxy for 2 months. They came to me when their owner could no longer care for them properly. Binx is a 3 yr. 9 month old neutered male. When they were given to me...I was told that Binx hissed when he peed, but had always done that, and it was "normal" for him. I have watched and listened to him carefully, tempering instinct with his prior owner's experience, thinking, 'I don't know everything, maybe this could be normal for one here and there'...until instinct won and I decided there had to be something not right...this could NOT be normal.

Binx went to the vet yesterday (first time in over 2.5 years from my understanding), and I had a urinalysis done. I'll share the results (basic):

white blood cells
bacteria
trace protein
alkaline PH
and a heavy volume of Phosphate Crystals

It's NO WONDER he hissed when he peed! And this has been going on in excess of TWO and a HALF to THREE YEARS. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He starts his Baytril today, and we will see how it helps...we are also reducing veggies and bugs to cut phosphorus levels in the diet (leaving him with BML and calcium rich fruits), and try and eliminate the crystals. As good as my vet is...even she is perplexed as to why phosphate crystals, and what could do this. It may be due to having an extremely long standing UTI but we don't know for certain. They have been on a few different diets...BML for almost the last year (and I KNOW it wasn't the BML).

HISSING IS NOT NORMAL WHEN THEY PEE, EVER. SOMETHING is causing discomfort (and I meant to use caps). It's up to us to get to the bottom of whatever is causing it, as they can't tell us. I know he was checked a very long time ago for uti (on the order of close to 3 years)...and was told he had no abnormal amount of bacteria. When the hissing continued, this glider should have been rechecked.

Please...if your glider hisses when peeing, take him or her to the vet. Pooping can indicate constipation, and sometimes you may have to watch close to be certain which they're doing when hissing. If in doubt...PLEASE vet check. I can't imagine how this poor guy went this long like this, or resort to SM at some point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/needhug.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109235 - 06/10/06 08:45 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Jen, what would you say to a guy like my Gizzy? He's hissed when peeing forever now. He's been checked three seperate times for a UTI and every single test came back negative. We've done the "shotgun" treatment with an antibiotic, and still he hisses. What does one do in a situation like this?? Is it likely he has something deeper going on (he never hisses when he poops FYI). He's on BML, will be a year old June 4th and gained weight at a steady pace (he's currently 107g). Where should I go with this next?? Should I have him put under for an X-ray to see if there's any crystals in there? I feel like it MIGHT be the case, but my vet is hesitant to give him anesthesia because of how tiny these animals are. Do you think the risks outweigh the benefits at this point? His activity level and appetite are all completely normal and have never changed.
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109236 - 06/10/06 08:58 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
An Xray won't show crystals-they are very tiny...they need to look under the microscope for those. But trying to pass them can be very painful because they are abrasive. They specifically need to look for them.

If I can ask...what meds has your vet tried? It might be worth a recheck..or trying a different med or combo. If bacteria is found...also might want to consider a culture to find out type (as it's hard to tell normal flora from abnormal unless you grow it-especially on a continuing low grade infection, that might not show up as an overwhelming number of bacteria). By combo...I mean one that will cover as much of the spectrum of bacteria as possible...gram positive, gram negative, anaerobic-your vet would know which antibiotics target which types of bacteria. Hope this helps.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109237 - 06/10/06 09:01 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
I know how painful these things can be, I've had too many kidney stones to count and sometimes morphine won't even touch them!! So what, do they get the urine sample and look for crystals in there or do they have to put him out and go INTO him and look for them? We've been on Amoxicillin (no clue why it wasn't Baytril...) for a two week treatmenr about 2 months ago, pretty broad but didn't work.....
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109238 - 06/10/06 09:13 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Binx was put under briefly, and urine taken straight from the bladder (which can eliminate the possibility of contamination from passage thru the cloaca-ensuring a purer sample). Riker has been under a number of times for Xray...as long as the vet uses Isofluorin in the proper amounts, and is careful, your little one should be fine if they need to take a sample that way (be careful, tho...even the sweetest glider wakes up from anesthesia biting-they aren't trying to hurt you, just confused for a few minutes). But the crystals will be in the urine, and if there should show up under the microscope...that's all they should need is a urine sample to look at-however obtained.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109239 - 06/10/06 10:00 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Oh Jen, I'm so sorry for little Binx. Thank God you persisted and took him in to be tested. I'm sure that with your tender loving care he'll be feeling better soon.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#109240 - 06/10/06 10:32 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Well..I found this on phosphate crystals, and thought I'd share.

Urine Triple Phosphate Crystals...

Guess citrus would be a good thing to have ON the menu for a bit for this guy! (Don't worry...I know not to overdo it)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109241 - 06/10/06 11:12 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen, so sorry to hear Binx is having UTI problems. Here you are helping me when you have 3 of your own with vet visits. Hopefully they are all getting better.
I can't imagine anyone letting a glider hiss while peeing at all. The first time I heard Happy hiss, I was turning him over taking pictures, and we all know that was a good thing! I guess it all depends on the glider, but from recent personal experience, if it's not normal for them to hiss - get vet help Immediately!

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#109242 - 06/11/06 12:47 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
I will call the vet Monday....he only hisses half the time, like tonight there was not a hiss to be heard...I'll ask her to put him under for a urine sample I have heard that some gliders are hissers but I'm so paranoid I won't be satisfied till I have an answer...........
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109243 - 06/11/06 12:54 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
The difference is hissing to communicate, and hissing in response to discomfort. I have some very vocal gliders who "talk", hiss to each other between cages, the girls when in heat, etc., but when they're hissing when they pee, I take notice. With this guy I shouldn't have second-guessed myself, but I did-and he paid for that with a further two months of pain. If they hiss when peeing...then stop when they're done...it's discomfort from something, whether that something be an infection, crystals, injury, or what have you.

Like I always say to others...If in doubt, go to the vet. From now on, I intend to follow my own advice regardless. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

Do let me know how your little one's visit goes.


Edited by Xfilefan (06/11/06 12:55 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109244 - 06/11/06 06:40 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I feel that we have been mistaking crystals in the urine for UTIs for quiet a while. How often do you hear of a glider with a prolapsed penis and everyone automatically thinks UTI or sexual frustration. Yet when a test is run no UTI is detected. Why? Because the vets are looking for the wrong thing. They are looking for a bacterial infection when the problem is actually being caused by a urinary blockage caused by what Jen referred to as phosphate crystals. I like to think of the crystals as calcium crystals. They are sharp edged shards of calcium that are in the early stages of becoming kidney stones. Since the urethra tube is longer and narrower in the male glider this is where we often see the problem. The crystals will block the flow of urine and can scratch the Aretha leading to infection at times.

A high alkaline diet can be part of the problem because there is not enough acid in the system to dissolve the calcium. IMO the main problem is not the ph of the system but the over supplementing with calcium. Plus the type of calcium that is being put into the glider diets. The calcium being used in most glider diets is calcium carbonate. In simple terms calcium carbonate is nothing more than ground up oyster shell. It is from 35 to 40 per cent calcium but only about 10% is actually used by the body. Where does the rest go? The body tries to break it down and pass it through the urinary tract and the digestive tract. Part of the excess calcium is stored in the heart, liver, and kidneys. And at times will show up as excessive calcium in the blood. Some of the partially processed calcium forms into crystals and the urinary tract attempts to pass them. When they overwhelm the urinary system the problems start with built up in the kidneys and blockage and damage to the urethra tube. The problem is worse with the male gliders. Treating with anti biotics may give temporary relief but does not cure the problem.

Jen do not be too positive about the diet not being the problem. If a glider has been on a diet that contains calcium made from oyster shell for a year this may be worth questioning. Put a teaspoon of RepCal in a glass of water and wait for it to dissolve. I don't think the glider's digestive system does much better.

Sorry for the book but the problem with the calcium in glider diets has been one of my theories for quiet a while. I think over supplementing with calcium is the root cause of many of the captive gliders health problems. Things like heart, liver, and kidney failure (UTI)
Charlie H
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Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#109245 - 06/11/06 12:06 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I do believe that the root cause of many glider hissing while peeing problems is something that we need to pay more attention to, especially considering how many male gliders seem to suffer from this problem. Whether the problem is initially caused by a UTI, or whether a UTI may eventually develop becasue of another underlying ussue that we have yet to fully understand, however, is a very important question that really needs to be looked at more closely.

I find Charlie's hypothesis on calcium very interesting, and it makes me wonder if the problem isn't the calcium itself, but the source of the calcium used. See, Calcium Carbonate (the calcium contained in oyster shells) is alkaline based; it makes me wonder if something like Calcium Citrate, which is acidic based, would be a better alternative when it comes to glider calcium supplimentation. I know that in humans Calcium Citrate is better absorbed by the body than Clacium Carbonate is, so if the underlying root of the hissisng is indeed being caused by the glider body's inability to properly absorb the Clacium Carbonate, then maybe what we need to do is re-examine the form of calcium that we currently use, not necessarily the use of calcium itself.

I am not a nutrionalist, and the only reason I know anything about calcium is that my family has a history of Osteoporosis and I'm paranoid enough about it to want to find out the best way for me to prevent it, but I do think that it would be very worth while for someone who IS an expert in this sort of field to look into this more closely and see if we can't find a good way of altering our current glider diets to include Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate (i.e. no more repcal, for starters - it's made from oyster shells.) If we can properly test this hypothesis, and then see whether or not changing the form of calcium does make a differnce here, then maybe we might be able to have a better handle on this very problematic situation.

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#109246 - 06/11/06 02:48 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, so then a couple of questions from someone who wants to try and prevent UTIs in their gliders.
1) Is one sex more susptible to them than the other? I know in humans woman are much more likely to get UTIs than men, but when a man gets one, it's a bit more serious. Is it the same with gliders?
2) Are some gliders just more prone to chronic infections than others and how can you tell?
3) Do the drugs they give gliders have possible side effects? (some UTI drugs can lead to yeast infections because of the effect it has on the internal Ph systems)
4) If RepCal supplements are a possible culprit and one is using the BML diet, what supplement should be used instead?

thanks...and sorry if this looks a little clueless.

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#109247 - 06/11/06 03:22 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]lingling,
I don't think your questions are clueless at all... in fact, I would like to know the answers to them myself. Hopefully someone will be along with the answers soon!
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#109248 - 06/11/06 06:46 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I want to point something out...which is why I said not the BML in this case ...there are TWO types of crystals that can show up in urine-and they are different shapes. Binx has the second kind. Riker...three years ago, had the first kind.

1) Calcium phosphate crystals (here is a linkwith a pic)- rosette or pointed finger shaped (what Riker had)-:

Calcium Phosphate crystals in Urine ]

2) Triple phosphate crystals (coffin lid-or rectangular shaped)- also known as magnesium aluminum phosphate crystals (what Binx has)-

Urine Triple Phosphate Crystals

My vet agreed the BML in BINX'S case wasn't probably it-but what he was fed in ADDITION to it (and his previous owner fed some odd things, and wasn't always consistent in diet, including using some off brands of vitamins I'm not certain WHAT is in, and I haven't used)-with her-the vet's-approval we're increasing acidic foods a small amount, and reducing phosphorus and we'll see what comes up at recheck.

Both can cause pain and blockage, though the sources are different-I do agree with you Charlie (just pointing out these weren't calcium this time)-diets are not fine tuned enough (they are MUCH better than they used to be, though)...and if you throw it off and feed the wrong foods you could be in a world of hurt (and so can your glider). I have not had an incidence of calcium crystals in my own gliders since I changed first from BML to Darcy's, with the Jurassical, then back to BML (after switching from Darcy's...I wasn't happy with the repcal) and started using Jurassical in it(I KNOW...that makes it techically not BML)-it is ground so much finer than the rep-cal, and if you put IT in water, it disappears (to the eye...I know it doesn't probably to the microscope). Calcium citrate would probably be even better.

With Binx...he has a UTI as well-whether the cart came before the horse, or vise versa...I have no idea..I have had him such a short time. I may look into using calcium citrate instead, simply for all my babies' health.

In either case of crystals, tho, interestingly enough...increasing the acidity of the diet seems to be key.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109249 - 06/12/06 12:18 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3060
Loc: u.s.a.
in the past yr of e mailing e australian vets they all say one thing in their e mails back. do not supplement with calcium. i have to ask why next. they mostly use broccoli for veggies and wombaroo high protein mix

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#109250 - 06/12/06 10:38 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Jen (or anyone who knows for that matter...), what test do I need for these crystals to be seen? If it's a urine sample, we've had tons of those, as recently as 3 weeks ago, and nothing at all showed up. If an X-ray won't pick up the crystals because of their size, is there another test I should be asking for?? Lordy, this little guy has the ability to stress me out......
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109251 - 06/12/06 10:41 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]The vet will need to look at the urine sample through a microscope in order to see whether there are crystals present or not. I don't believe they routinely look at it through a microscope, so you have to specifically request for them to do so and let them know what they are looking for.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#109252 - 06/12/06 10:47 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Actually Suz, she DID look under a microscope this past time (about 3 weeks ago) because when she came back in the room she said, "Well, I looked at his samples under the scope (she was actually looking for crystals) and everything looks good." I'm glad you clarified because I was afraid I was missing something. She brought up the issue of crystals/stones which is why she put his urine (and his poop because she had it there fresh) under a microscope. OK, so now what lol??? Is there any other way of detecting these crystals?......
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109253 - 06/12/06 06:28 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, I've just started a separate thread on the possibility of using Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate so that it can be looked at as a separate entity. That thread, in case you want to find it, can be found here.

Lingling - Unfortunately, I don't know how to answer most of your questions. I can tell you that it's been my experience that male gliders are more likely to hiss when they pee, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're more prone to either a UTI or to phosphate crystals than females are; it may just be that they're more likely to react that way to the sensation, or it may just be that it's often more painful for them, I couldn't say with any certainty at all. I do think that some gliders seem to be more likely to develop certain types infection than others are, but unfortunately I don't think that it's something that you can know of for certain ahead of time Ė I think that you usually learn that your glider is more prone through experience more than anything else. I don't know if antibiotics cause gliders to have problems one way or the other, but because I tend to have problems with them myself I usually end up giving Flip a bit of yogurt during a course of antibiotics, just in case it helps. Iím sorry I donít have any better answers for you right now, but hopefully at some point someone will.

angelic4296 Ė Unfortunately, Iím not really sure what to recommend to you, either. You could maybe talk to your Dr. about increasing the acidity of Gizmoís diet, since according to Jen increasing the acidity in a diet can help to treat both forms of crystals, and see if maybe that helps to clear the problem up. I mean, I do agree that something has to be causing the hissing, but the problem is that we just havenít been able to place with 100% certainty what all of the culprits might be just yet. Checking the urine has been a good start, as well as checking specifically for crystals, but Iím not sure what the best next step for you should be Ė hopefully somebody else will have an idea for you on that.

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#109254 - 06/12/06 09:40 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Gizmo loves tomatoes....would giving him them more often provide more acidity or are citric fruits the best?....if so, which ones should I try?? I know for my kidney stones, I take Bi-Citrate which contains citric acid bigtime, so I see your logic. Has anyone else tried this or know if this might work?
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109255 - 06/12/06 11:18 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tomatos are acidic fruits, technically speaking (they've got seeds inside them, after all.) As for what would be the best types of acidic fruits and veggies, or how much to give Gizmo per day, my best suggestion would be to call up your vet and discuss it with them a bit. Tell them what you're thinking about doing and why, see what they have to say about the whole thing, and then go from there. Remember that too much acid is going to cause problems too, so you'll want to be careful not to over-do it.

I'd love to know whether or not this actually ends up helping Gizmo with the hissing problem!

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#109256 - 06/14/06 02:26 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


BTW Jess, while looking for more info on the whole calcium thing, I did find an article that says that "Foods such as orange juice and lemon juice are acidic but turn alkaline after they have been metabolized in the body. As such, for dietetic purposes they are usually considered to be alkaline despite being acidic prior to consumption. Most fruits are alkaline except a few, including cranberries, plums and prunes, because they contain acids the body can't metabolize." So, IF that's the case in gliders as well (and I don't know yet!), you may REALLY want to talk to your vet before you modify Gizmo's diet, just to make sure that the acidic foods you decide to feed will actually end up being helpful once metabalized. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#109257 - 06/14/06 05:33 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
angelic4296-crystals are not the only thing that could cause this. There could be inflammation in there for some reason. I don't know how to test for that-your vet might be able to offer some suggestions. If there's inflammation, then they could hiss as well-in an intact male, I would offer maybe he is, um, playing with it more than he should be. I've never seen any of my neutered guys out at all, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. I know there's probably more possible causes, but as of now I can't come up with any other possibly useful suggestions.

On a side note: On the Calcium phosphate crystal's link, under the picture are two arrows and it says "slide index" in between them. If you click on those...there is an AMAZING number of struvite crystals that can be present in urine (and it also tells what their presence can mean)-I never knew there were that many or in so many shapes! The Tyrosine 'crystals' they call "needle shaped"-they almost look like fine hairs to me, but are indeed crystals. We learn something every day.

UPDATE: We've temporarily eliminated fresh veggies, except for the sweet potatoes I'm mixing into Binx and Roxy's BML...and are giving Hawaiian Delight instead for now...for the Ascorbic Acid that's in it (vitamin C)-under the Triple Phosphate link it listed ascorbic acid and/or ammonium chloride for treatment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . Plus his meds. Last night, and tonight, I have not heard a SINGLE HISS when he pees!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: came up with one more suggestion. Chronos we thought had a UTI or something for a year...he did at the very beginning, but that cleared...yet he still hissed. We went through several rounds of meds. What it is is an anal gland abscess we didn't know was there until it opened and began to weep the infection that had been contained inside.

Have the vet check also the anal glands (GENTLY-they don't want to rupture one, or force infection into the body)...to make sure they're the same size, symmetrical, and try and see if anything is going on there. Since they are right next to the cloacal opening, something wrong there will also cause hissing. They shouldn't be really large, cooked grain of rice sized or so, to feel them. I'm sure there's some variation from glider to glider. If it's the size of a pea...that's not normal (that's how Chronos' was).


Edited by Xfilefan (06/14/06 05:39 AM)
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Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109258 - 06/14/06 09:45 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Jen and Riverstone,
Thanks so much for your replies. I'm going to buy Hawaiian Delight (I may already have a jar, I can't walk out of a grocery store without stuff for him...) and see if it helps at all. I'll call my vet and ask about his anal glands and inflammation and what modifications I can make to his diet. He's neutered and I've never seen him pay much attention to that area, thank goodness. I'll keep you all updated!
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Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109259 - 06/15/06 02:19 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has got one!

With all due respect to the many excellent glider owner-posters above, there isn't much in this particular thread that is consistent with Urology science.

There are many kinds of urinary crystals, many normal and some not. Stones are another matter. Most crystals in and of themselves are not necessarily a problem. Some are indicative of infection. Same for sediments. Struvite is actually Magnesium Ammonium (not aluminum) Phosphate crystals. It is often suggestive of proteus and other infectious environments that are associated with alkaline environments.

Ionic salts precipitate out of solution. Look at enough pee under the microscope and you'll get comfortable that seeing that stuff is about as normal as seeing yellow in there. If one hadn't done that and then read this thread, they would be out changing diets and trying to change normal things.

What is eaten, what the body absorbs from that meal, how what is absorbed is acted upon in the liver and bloodstream, what is filtered by the kidney resulting in urine, what is secreted into the kidney ultrafiltrate in renal tubules, what precipitates out of urine leading to urinary sediment, and how a germ from below gains access to the urinary tract which should be sterile and changes the microenvironment are all different things. There is a scary lack of cause and effect linkages included above, and some comments that are known to be downright wrong. It reminds me of myths like hot water freezes faster than cold water.

Not to be contrary, but be careful about not only what your glider eats, but what you swallow too.

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#109260 - 06/15/06 09:50 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Schlep,
Thank you for enlightening me... I always learn something new from you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.
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Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#109261 - 06/15/06 03:59 PM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're absolutely right Shlep, I (for one) haven't spent much time staring at urine under a microscope - on the other hand, since I'm a Web Designer by trade, that'd be kind of a WIERD hobby for me, I think.

Without going back over everything to clarify what is and isn't correct from a Urology standpoint, I would just like to know, from your own personal experiences (as one who, I'm guessing at least, does have a lot of experience with urine and its composition), whether or not you think that that it's possible that an overly Alkaline diet could either cause or somehow aide in the development of either a UTI or some other problem that could be causing the hissing in a situation like this? Is that an incorrect theory based on what you know, or is that a plausible possibility? Thanks!

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#109262 - 06/16/06 02:56 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Schlep...some of this info is from my vet...the link I provided states that SOME crystals are normal (and some are not)...but in normal crystals...you have a problem when there are too many of them..which is more likely to happen in urine that is too alkaline, with or without an infection.

Binx had around 20 times the amount of crystals he should have that would be considered in the "normal" range. In a case like that, ascorbic acid is one of the recommended treatments to reduce the overabundance of crystals. As I stated...even my vet couldn't say what caused this...his infection, although present, is minor.

The point of this was to illustrate that it is NEVER normal for a glider to be in pain or discomfort when going pee. That the causes can be varied (more than just a UTI...such as injury, swelling, abscess, etc., abnormal crystals being ONE possibility). This started out as Binx's health thread-with that admonition...tho it turned into something else, focused on the causes themselves and not him, and I'll have to make a new one for him, lol, as updates will get lost in this one. My fault for the title I chose, I suppose.

As always...your opinion is respected, as well as your expertise...and I always love to hear detailed explanations, ideas from you, though since I'm not a medical professional, your last paragraph kind of lost me a bit. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was amazed at the wide array of different crystals that can be present in urine (normal or not)-since I haven't looked into this before...I just stated my awe at the number and shapes of them.


Edited by Xfilefan (06/16/06 02:58 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#109263 - 06/16/06 11:10 AM Re: Gliders and UTI's [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Alright, for those of us ("us" meaning me lol) that needed a more detailed explanation....

1. How do you know if urine is too alkaline? Is there a color difference I can look for? Gizmo pees ALOT when he wakes up but it's usually very light in color.
2. What is the opposite of being too alkaline?

****As an update, I've been giving Giz half of a cherry tomato a day for the past few days just to see if that would help, and I have not heard a hiss since then! What in the tomato, if anything could have helped?****
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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