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#109801 - 06/12/06 04:39 PM Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate?
Anonymous
Unregistered


After taking part in a discussion about gliders and UTI's, (which can be found here), I have decided that it might be a good idea to at least look into the possibility of changing the calcium used in glider diets from Calcium Carbonate to Calcium Citrate, and wondered if anyone could help me in doing so.

Calcium Carbonate is an alkaline based calcium, and is the form of calcium used in both BML and Darcy's diets. In the afore mentioned thread it was suggested that the cause of gliders hissing when they go to the bathroom could be because they're suffering from the passing of phosphate crystals, and not necessarily a UTI, although it is possible that one could lead to the other at some point. It was stated that perhaps it was actually an excess of calcium that was causing these phosphate crystals to form, due to an overly alkaline diet, which would actually make it more difficult for the body to absorb the calcium properly to begin with. It seems to me that it may not be the calcium itself, but the FORM of calcium used that's causing the problem, hence my interest in looking at changing which form of calcium is used.

I know that, in humans, Calcium Carbonate is more difficult to absorb, and that, while slightly more expensive to buy, Calcium Citrate is often considered as a better way to go. Calcium Citrate is an acidic based calcium, and as such it is an easier form of calcium for the body to absorb properly. If these phosphate crystals are in fact a result of an overly alkaline diet that is in turn causing calcium absorption problems, then switching to Calcium Citrate would help because an acidic calcium would be more readily absorbed, would help to keep the overall diet less alkaline and more balanced, and would help to keep excess calcium from building up and causing the urination problems to begin with.

I am not an expert on nutrition, and the reason that I know about calcium is that Iíve got osteoporosis in my family history and itís something that I personally want to avoid, so it is something that I have done some research on. I know that it not advisable to alter any proven diet without discussing the possible change with that dietís creator first. I have sent a PM to Bourbon asking for her help in this matter, but I am not certain how to go about contacting the creator of Darcyís; I also do not know how many other diets may be using Calcium Carbonate instead of Calcium Citrate, however because Calcium Carbonate is less expensive than Calcium Citrate I would not be surprised if most of the current diets used Calcium Carbonate as their calcium of choice.

My goal here is not to bash any diet on any level; my goal here is to find assistance in looking more closely at which calcium supplement is more appropriate, not which diet, and all comments should be directed on that level because I think that this is a very important aspect to examine, and itís not something that I know how to do by myself, so if this thread is shut down then we may all suffer. Please, if you have anything constructive to say on this issue, or if you think that you might be able to offer me help or advice in my quest to further examine the possible use of Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate, your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

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#109802 - 06/12/06 05:01 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
Here is a contact for the Darcy's diet. I'm not sure that she created it or it was created for Darcy " her glider with Cancer " Good luck and by the way I just love reading your posts, you are so well spoken and thought out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> []saharanfox@hotmail.com[/]

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#109803 - 06/12/06 06:02 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you for the email reference Carrie T; I've just finished sending her an email about this subject, and I will let everyone know what the outcome of that email ends up being.

Once I thought about it, I realized that I've seen saharanfox on the boards before, but for some reason I simply hadn't put two and two together, so I'm glad that you were able to help me with that. (I am also glad to know that you enjoy my posts! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

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#109804 - 06/12/06 06:02 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I had the same thoughts about types of calcium. I looked on the internet about which one was easier to absorb,and thus would be less likely to build up etc. and have been using calcium citrate for several months now.

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#109805 - 06/12/06 06:41 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am also not a dietician, but was understood that the citrate forms a calcium channel for absorbtion, and due to that they absorb too much once the channel is created....

I don't know how or why or anything, just what I heard. I'm a telephone man, if it don't ring I don't know why it works <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#109806 - 06/12/06 07:24 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
North_Nocturne Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
One of my gliders is less than 5 months old and already having UTI problems so I'd love to find something that might help with those issues and be a more effective calcium supplement.

I've also been looking into replacing my Repcal with a calcium citrate product. I've done a lot of searching but haven't found a calcium supplement made for animals that is calcium citrate. Has anyone else been able to find it? I couldn't find powdered calcium citrate at any local natural food stores but found a few sources online with a google search.

To anyone who is using calcium citrate, what exact product are you using and where do you get it?
_________________________
Elizabeth
gliders. Nocturne & Lark

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#109807 - 06/12/06 07:24 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3059
Loc: u.s.a.
in australian wombaroo s \calcium carbonate but not as much as in bml. maybe its best to just use half the amount.

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#109808 - 06/12/06 07:31 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I use "NOW" Calcium Citrate powder 100%pure, 8oz. bottle from a herb shop for $6.95.

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#109809 - 06/12/06 08:12 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
How much calcium carbonate is used for gliders in Australia? (per day)

How much Calcium Citrate would a glider need? That is only sold for human consumption I thought. ???
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#109810 - 06/12/06 09:53 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
I posted this in the UTI thread referenced above, but I'll mention here too since this seems to be relevant...I've had kidney stones since 2001, and have passed probably close to 40 stones (swear to God, I know that sounds bizarre), made of both calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate. One of the main medications I've been put on is Bi-Citrate. Citrate, as mentioned above, not only helps with the ABSOPRTION of calcium, but is one of the things that PREVENTS stones from forming in the first place (this is the human body keep in mind). I've been wondering the same thing about the source of calcium we;re currently giving our gliders and if calcium citrate might be a better option...
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109811 - 06/13/06 12:22 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3059
Loc: u.s.a.
i dont know how much is in the wombarroo high protein mix but i do no in australia all the vets dont use calcium at all. they say if fed a balanced diet they dont need it. why i dont know. one zoo there uses calcivet a bird calcium supplement. but in the wombarroo its not up there as the first ingredient. but it does have the carbonate calcium and one important mineral for gliders called selenium and vit e which i think is missing in out gliders diets.

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#109812 - 06/13/06 01:10 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
At least some of our diets have considered these ingredients. The wheat germ in the BML recipe, for instance, has vitamin E. Here's a thread with a breakdown: A Nutritional Analysis of the BML Mix.

Wombaroo milk in PML has selenium (Pockets Modified Leadbeater's). Ensure for Darcy's has both vitamin E and selenium. I haven't researched them, but just from a quick search, you might find some interesting reading. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

ē 2003: Hiroshi (M)
ē 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
ē 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
ē 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
ē 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#109813 - 06/13/06 07:19 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Some things to consider when switching calcium supplements. The RepCal and most forms of calcium carbonate are only 35 to 40 percent calcium. Of that only about 10% is absorbed by the body. Calcium citrate is about 2.5 times more absorbable than calcium carbonate. You would have to see what percent calcium the citrate supplement is and do a lot of math to figure the dose to use.

This is the plain calcium carbonate and calcium citrate. If you will notice both forms can be purchased with vit d added. This would alter the absorption rate of both but no one knows how much. Also so much stress has been placed on the C/P ratios. Should the ratios be altered when changing calcium types. If so. How much? Also these diets do not ever mention the effects of magnesium which is as important to the ratios as the calcium and phosphorus. One must also take into consideration all the other minerals supplemented. Another important factor is whether you are feeding a low protein or high protein diet. Also consider that you are changing from an alkaline to an acid based supplement. Since the glider relies very much on bacteria in the ceacum and large intestine for proper digestion what effect will altering the system from alkaline to acid have? IMO the acid would kill off or severely alter the bacteria if used over a period of time.

Calcium carbonate is cheap to manufacture and there is an abundance of it available. As a result the public has been overwhelmed with the advertisements for it so it became the calcium supplement of choice. Sort of like the media saturation for soy products. Does not mean these are the best choices but if you can convince the public you have established a billion dollar business. Enough of that!

But remember when choosing calcium supplements to do all the research you can. And filter through it. The people selling the various products will tell you the part they want to promote their sales. Quiet often they neglect to mention the adverse side effects.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#109814 - 06/13/06 01:11 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


KattyM Ė I did find the post you found to be rather interesting; unfortunately since part of the main premise of that post was that they didnít want to modify the RepCal in any way, itís not as helpful to me as it might be, but I do think that Iíll do some more archive searching as well, and I appreciate the suggestion.

Youíre right Charlie, there IS more to consider than just which form of calcium you prefer. Different forms of calcium do have different absorption rates, and that HAS to be factored into the equation.

I have been able to find a .pdf document that gives me a chart on, among other things, the absorbability of several different forms of calcium supplements. The chart includes information on the approximate percentage of Elemental Calcium in each calcium form, the approximate percentage of Absorbable Calcium in each calcium form, and the Approximate Solubility (mM/liter) of each calcium form. The chart covers Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Citrate, and Calcium Citrate Malate, so it's a good place to START, but there are a LOT of other things to look at as well. (The chart, btw, can be found here.)

I want to do more than just replace one form of calcium with another in my own processes and call it a day; I want to understand how the calcium interacts with these diets as they are currently prepared. My goal is to make sure that, if I (or anyone else) decide to switch from one form of calcium to the other, a reasonable amount of the Calcium Citrate is being added instead of a disproportionate one, and that whatever might otherwise be thrown out of whack by making such a change is being properly compensated for. This is exactly why I am attempting to ask the creators of these diets directly

I know that I need to have a better understanding of how Calcium Citrate specifically interacts with other foods and minerals, specifically so I can figure out any possible negative side effects and find out whether or not they can be compensated for. (On the other hand Iím not sure that the Calcium Carbonate is necessarily completely safe either, since apparently supplements made from oyster shell may contain metals and lead in levels that are considered dangerous for small children.)

Let me be clear - I donít want to recommend anything to anyone without understanding the implications better than I currently do, and for that I need to do a LOT more research, and I need to talk to someone who truly understands how each diet has been formulated and exactly what role the current calcium supplements play. I donít know enough to be able to answer most of these questions at this point, but I do think that itís important to investigate this further.

I know that it may not be possible to fully understand what all of the side effects of switching from one form of calcium to another might be ahead of time, and that so much of this, like anything else, will be trial and error. In the end the question will be whether or not each person feels that the possible benefits outweigh the possible negative effects.

If anyone else is as interested in this as I am, I suggest that you may want to do some more research of your own as well; different people tend to search for things differently, and as such you may be able to uncover helpful information that I wonít. This is a mighty big undertaking, and I would appreciate all the help I can get!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#109815 - 06/13/06 02:13 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Charlie and Riverstone, at THIS time, which Calcium are you using?

I use the Wambaroo HP (Leadbeater's mix). I also give yogurt to my suggies. I was adding Vionate vitamins/minerals and sprinkling Calcium Carbonate on the corn. With ALL the foods I feed already, I am really thinking this is going overboard with Calcium. Veggies, fruits, yogurt, Wambaroo HP, licky treats, yogurt drops, baby foods, eggs, chicken. Then on top of everything fed, adding MORE Calcium and vitamins. I personally do not believe our suggies really need all the SUPPLEMENTS of calcium/vitamins most of us give! I have nothing to base this on except my own COMMON SENSE. After reading article after article for YEARS all over the internet, the calcium debate just gets more and more confusing. (as the total diets do also)

Our gliders do NOT live in the wild. Therefore, I believe they do NOT need AS much as they would be getting in the wild. We have suggies that are spoiled lazy bums. LOL They don't have to do a thing cept sleep, eat, play. Their metabolism is different than gliders in the wild.

Our gliders already have a MUCH longer life span than those in the wild too. I realize however much of the death rate in the wild may be due to accidents, fights, injuries and humans destroying wildlife.

I am very curious also as to what TYPE of calcium gliders actually are getting from foods in the wild. I give mine Acacia Gum, Bee Pollen also. There again, more calcium.

But what KIND of calcium does the natural diet contain?
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#109816 - 06/13/06 05:09 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Riverstone I read the article you posted the link to. I must say personaly I was not impressed. Before using any of the figures they list I think you should do more research. Some of the statements are very misleading.

The more you read about calcium the more you will realize how little is actually known about it. It makes me very nervous when our 'experts' tell us what type and how much of a mineral supplement to add to a glider diet. And as in the article in the link furnished by Riverstone how can you possibly determine the absortion rate of calcium without factoring in the complete diet? Also they state that calcium carbonate is mined. Some is but not all. Did they ever read the label on the RepCal? Also a statement about calcium disolveing in water. Putting ground up oyster shell in water does not disolve it. After all it has lived in water all of it's life. You must have an acid based liquid.

I will not suggest what type or how much calcium shoul be added to any diet. But I will tell you that some of the things we have been told is incorrect. For instance we are told not to worry about giving a glider an excessive amount. It is said that any excess calcium will be passed through the digestive and urinary tract. This is not a true statement. Part of the excess calcium is stored in the heart, kidneys, and the fatty tissue of the liver. We once tested a glider's blood and found five times the amount of calcium that there should be. Of course this was not the norm because the glider had been receiving extra calcium to treat HLP but it goes to show that the calcium is not being passed as previously thought. If the blood had all this extra calcium wonder what was happening with the cells. It took a few months for the gliders system to level out so that she did not crab at the slightest touch or movement.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#109817 - 06/13/06 07:40 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3059
Loc: u.s.a.
as i said before in australia no calcium is used they are agaisnt it for supplementation. my new glider has been on a fresh diet for a yr now never had calcium but get a little wombaroo hp on her food and the days she dont get wombaroo she gets high calcium yogurt.

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#109818 - 06/13/06 08:15 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know what; NEVER MIND.

All I was trying to do was to say that I wondered if a different form of calcium MIGHT be a better solution; it was something I had been curious about for some time, and I thought that maybe if I asked I could get a little help in looking into the situation because I freely admit that I do not have enough knowledge at this point in time to say whether or not this is a good idea. I was hoping that, between my looking everywhere I could think of to try and better understand calcium in its different forms and how it relates to gliders, and having other people who were willing to help me do so, then maybe I could eventually be capable of competently answering my own question of whether or not Calcium Citrate would be a better alternative to Calcium Carbonate in glider diets.

Unfortunately, with the exception of the very few, nobody seems to want to do anything but tear my theory apart and tell me that I donít know enough; well, if I knew enough I wouldnít have had to ask for help to begin with, would I? I have spent two solid days now looking through information on calcium, and Iím not coming up enough helpful information to help anyone answer any of their questions, INCLUDING myself. You may not like the chart Charlie, but unfortunately itís the ONLY ONE Iíve been able to find so far, so itís REALLY HARD for me to tell whether or not itís correct because I donít have anything to properly compare it to, which is one of the reasons I put it out there to begin with.

If youíve ever wondered why so many people are so hesitant to talk about their diets or the modifications theyíve made or are thinking about making, THIS is why. Maybe it was ridiculous for me to have asked this question in the first place, but at least I was willing to do so out loud. How can anything ever improve if weíre all too scared to ask the questions that need to be asked for fear of being torn apart? How can we ever hope to benefit from the knowledge and experience of others if we all just keep our thoughts and ideas to ourselves? If the ultimate goal is a better understanding, how can that ever be achieved if weíre never given the tools we need in order for that understanding to take place? I know that too much calcium causes damage, just as too little does; I know that to acidic a ph balance causes problems, just as to alkaline a ph balance does. What I donít know is how changing from one form of calcium to another is going to affect these balances in gliders; and I guess if nobodyís willing to help me with this then Iíll never be able to find these answers, because I donít have the tools I need to properly figure this out on my own. Iím sorry I had the audacity to be interested in having a better understanding of the role that calcium plays in a gliderís diet; I didnít realize that wanting to know more was a bad thing.

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#109819 - 06/13/06 08:37 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Riverstone,

I really don't think anyone here is trying to bash you or the research you are doing. I think you are amazing for trying to better our understanding of diets as a whole <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> and I Thank You for your time, effort and dedication.

As with any discussion there are going to be different points of view and conflicting information. The process of going through all the information is how we learn and it helps spark new thoughts and ideas. I hate to say it but I am one of the large group that find it hard to grasp all the details and complications of this type of diet discussion so I tend to read and absorb as much as I can (which can be limited <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />).

Because I don't have anything benificial to add to your findings I will stay out of the thread and try not clutter it up. I feel this is how others feel and it really is not that we are not interested in what you are doing... we are trying to respect you and the others contributing.

So please please don't feel badly... and I'm hoping you don't drop your research as you have no idea how much you are helping the community by trying to figure things out.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#109820 - 06/13/06 08:43 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
I agree 100% with what Lorna said. I've been very interested in this thread as it could be something that could help our little guys in the long run. However, since I don't have the knowledge to add anything, I too have stayed out to avoid cluttering up the thread. Anyway....... Please don't stop looking into this subject or posting about what you have found.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#109821 - 06/13/06 09:10 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually, Riverstone's reference is quite accurate.

I know you have problems with the word "expert" Charlie and at times I do too, but as it relates to this thread, I should point out that although you are correct in stating that oyster shells are composed of Calcium Carbonate (btw - Random fact of the day : Cocolithifores are other marine organisms that also have calcium carbonate bodies, infact purer than oysters), you are incorrect in your suggestion that the majority of the calcium carbonate we use comes from ground oyster shells. Most of the industrially used calcium carbonates do indeed come from mining and quarrying. You see, oyster shells themselves contain other elements that pose problems with the isolation of the calcium carbonate molecules, and when you consider some of the uses for calcium carbonate (paint additives, chalk, health suppliments, etc) it is important that they keep any trace elements to its lowest, plus having to separate such trace elements is an expensive and highly involved ordeal, and simply impractical compared to traditional methods of calcium carbonate acquisition.

Actually, I remember wanting to bring that up in past debates where you mentioned about oyster shells and calcium carbonate, but always forgot to bring it up.

The process involves taking it from a pure source (from mining/quarrying) like marble, or by passing carbon dioxide through a solution of calcium hydroxide. This is something we learned in first year university CHEM 101. I could provide you further information if you like. Also, calcium carbonate can dissove in water, however the process is slow.

I do agree that it is difficult to determine an amount for calcium when we aren't aware of all the factors, but what diet are we questioning in particular where calcium is giving hundreds of gliders the same consistent health problems attributed to calcum overdose?

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#109822 - 06/13/06 09:32 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Having said that, I fully support Riverstone in doing research about this all and being compelled to post about it.

Charlie, I understand that several times you have brought this very thread up for discussion suggesting that calcium citrate should be used to replace calcium carbonate, and it lead to some interesting discussions and the collection of other relevant topics and concerns regarding this.

Though, I agree that there is so much we still have yet to discover on these guys regarding diet, it's not all mystery when you've done ample research, and I'm not talking about simply reading a highschool book on nutrition, but an in depth review of diet and all other topics that involve it (e.g. medical, biological, ecological, etc) and really no one has any real, sound argument until you've done that research. As I continually keep saying, scientists in Oz have the answers and have done the research, and much of the "expert" publications and info they promote is exactly that "expert".

In that sense, I think it's perfectly acceptible that people ask questions and make suggestions freely on these boards; they're doing research.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#109823 - 06/13/06 10:38 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Riverstone was asking a question, she asked for peoples input. She even had said that she "was no expert." And she put that chart on not saying that it was all truth, but that "it was a good placce to start."

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#109824 - 06/13/06 11:21 PM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Riverstone,
I respect what you're trying to do. I hope that you continue your work as it could be beneficial to all gliders owners, no matter how long you've been a part of the glider world. Please keep us all informed because there are those of us who would deeply appreciate the information. Unfortunately, I am not very science-minded (I have a Master's degree in Counseling, not Biology lol) so I can't be of much help...however, I would invite all those who ARE good in the scientific/mathematical areas step forward and join this constructive discussion and help Riverstone out.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#109825 - 06/14/06 12:21 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wasn't really thinking about not looking into this any further, because for the life of me I can't help but feel like I really need to understand this whole calcium thing better; I was more looking at maybe just shutting my mouth, but if you guys actually WANT to know about what I'm trying to do and how I'm going about trying to figure it out, then maybe I won't keep my mouth zipped after all - I do admittedly have a pretty hard time with that sometimes anyway, so. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I should state that this is probably going to take me a long time to figure all of this stuff out; Iím not blessed with a background like Mikeyís or Charlieís, unfortunately Ė all Iíve got going for me is a strong analytical mind that doesnít seem to work much like other peopleís, and a gnawing feeling in the back of my mind that keeps insisting I find some sort of a solution to this puzzle, no matter what that solution ultimately happens to be. (Well, that and guilt Ė Flop [Flipís mate] had the hissing-while-urinating problem, but it was never properly taken care of because I was told that if heíd always done it then MUST be normal for him, and I was dumb enough to believe that, and Iím convinced that the problem had something to do with his eventual death, which I canít prove because my cousin wouldnít let me get an autopsy done when he died, and they are technically his gliders and not mine so I couldnít force him to do so, but I kinda feel like if I can figure out this whole calcium thing so that I can understand it better, and then if I can eventually help other gliders so that they donít go through the same thing, then maybe I can atone just a bit for not being able to save him; and, since Iím really good at guilt, that makes it even harder for me to not want to give up on trying to make sense of it all, so.)

So I guess Iíll keep working and this, and see where it leads me; I do truly appreciate the support.

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#109826 - 06/14/06 02:09 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh my, Riverstone. I didn't know your glider had died... My condolences. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Because it's you, and I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> you, I'll stay up until 3:30 AM to type this out.

To tell you the truth, the calcium stuff isn't as complex as most make it out to be. Understanding calcium in a diet is really an understanding of the principles of not only nutrition but other related topics, and your experience with osteoperosis is already a good base background knowledge on much of it. It's a start.

Where to start?

Well, let's begin with the glider. Ecology...

I understand that gliders naturally come from a part of the world where soils (for the most part) tend to be rather calcium-rich, and hence due to simple movement of materials through the foodweb, much of the flora and fauna also have relatively high amounts of calcium in them. The plant materials the gliders feed on should be high in calcium. This would mean that the gliders should biologically have a lower calcium absorption rate than a flying squirrel would here, simply because of the abundance of the calcium. I feel this right here is the cause of most of the calcium-attributed health complications like HLP, because the gliders who have evolved over millions of years in the calcium-rich lands never had a need to absorb a lot of it to meet their biological needs (i.e. bones/teeth, muscles, blood, nerves), and suddenly when they are captivate here in North America, and their foods don't contain the high calcium amounts their bodies are biologically used to, then you run into gliders that suffer from calcium deficiencies, e.g. Hind Leg Paralysis (HLP).

Now, a biological standpoint...

As you may know, the form in which calcium exists is an important factor as to how much is absorbed. A priciple called BIOAVAILABILITY describes the readiness of a substance to be absorbed and used by the body according to the form the substance is in. As it relates to calcium then, as was mentioned earlier, because calcium citrate may be easier for the gliders to absorb, perhaps not as much calcium citrate is needed as calcium carbonate. Also, in nature, gliders absorb much of their calcium from acacia gum, and it's simply a source of calcium from which the gliders have evolved to draw much of their dietary calcium. Calicum existing in other forms (e.g. calcium carbonate or citrate) other than its form in acacia gum, means there's a different absortion rate, which poses more problems when trying to figure out just how much calcium suppliment we should add to their diet. It also explains why we would be experiencing a complication with UTI's in gliders on high doses of calcium carbonate because it's simply a foreign form of calcium that the glider's digestive systems are not readily used to digesting in high amounts.

In terms of an opinion of Charlie regarding calcium citrate being acidic and hence killing the bacteria in their large intestine and caecum, I feel that may also be inaccurate. Gliders' digestive systems like most animals are designed to accomodate both acidic and basic food stuffs and fluids. Several glider-safe fruits are just as, if not more acidic than calcium citrate.

Also, speaking of the caecum, marsupialogists believe the caecum is the site where fermentation occurs for the further break down of acacia gum and it is thought to promote further nitrogen absorption. The process of fermentation generally involves relatively acidic products. In my opinion, the microflora wouldn't be much affected by any calcium citrate, which during the digestion process gets broken down and coverted into other more "digestive-friendly" calcium substances anyway.

Now, a chemical and nutritional standpoint...

The reason why we place a whole deal on calcium and phosphorus ratio is because they require each other and in many animals (including humans) that ratio is 1:1, i.e. for ever mg of calcium, the body would require the same amount of phosphorus. In nature and natural sources, calcium and phosphorus usually occur together in that 1:1 ratio. When you provide a lot of phosphorus in a diet, the body simply draws calcium from the bones in order to pair it up with the phosphorus (Why? It has to do with more biological stuff where calcium is required to have phosphorus pass through the intestine membrane, but PM if you'd like more info on that).

Now the applications...

So going back to what I mentioned about gliders naturally having a lower rate of calcium absorption, the issue of bioavailability, and the calcium phosphorus ratio, it's truly difficult to say how much calcium citrate one would have add to the gliders' diet because:

  • 1) We don't know how much calcium the glider would absorb from calcium citrate, so we don't know how much calcium citrate to suggest to add to the glider diet.
  • 2) The amount absorbed would have to be an amount that matches (and perhaps exceeds a little over) the amount of phosphorus and not less.
  • 3) At the same time we don't want to overdose the gliders on calcium, because calcium in excess is indeed toxic.


Also, Charlie brought up the importance of magnesium which is certainly true. Magnesium is required for calcium absorption and directly affects the rate at which calcium is absorbed. It's another factor that should be taken into account. Also, it should be interesting to note that the consumption of sugars induces the passing of magnesium out through the urine, which in turn would lead to calcium deficiencies. Perhaps all the sugary foods and fruits we give our gliders as a staple are increasing the chances of calcium-attributed health issues (and this is something I've seen suggested in several publications and articles, regarding fruit-based diets and deficiencies).

It's all a guessing game really. There are simply too many factors to consider. It literally is like "ROCKET SCIENCE" and I feel those who created diets may be like NASA. They did the math, the studying, the research, and built a rocket and crossed their fingers hoping it would land on the moon. People have created diets (having done or having NOT done the ample research) for our gliders and hoped for the best, many successfully rearing what appear to be healthy gliders (indicating they have relatively correct amounts of nutrients). Some glider diet-makers have better "ROCKETS" than others, though.

If you're really interested in finding out the role of calcium in glider nutrition I urge you to read Marsupial Nutrition by Dr. Ian Hume. He really puts things into perspective and I attribute a great deal of my knowledge on glider diets to that man and that world renowned, scientific publication.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#109827 - 06/14/06 02:53 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Wow Mikey! I would LOVE to have your brain! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any idea HOW MUCH Acacia Gum gliders consume in the wild? I sprinkle the Acacia on my gliders foods every night and they LOVE it. Since it is a major (?) source of thier calcium in the wild. I'd rather give them the gum than be sprinkling calcium supplements. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#109828 - 06/14/06 03:21 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> you too, Mikey! Thank you so much for neglecting your sleep long enough to give me that analysis; not only did it make a lot of sense to me, but it's also given me a much better idea of what it is that I really need to be looking at, and as such I have a much better idea of what directions to start searching in. Just because the premise is simple enough, it really doesn't mean the answer is, does it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far at the book recommendation goes; my local library (which is actually linked to a bunch of libraries throughout the county I live in) doesnít have that book (or even anything remotely close to it), it seems to be out of print, and used it seems to be selling for about $65, so do you think that I could maybe borrow your copy or something, depending on what the shipping rates are? Because Iím not sure how else to get my hands on it, and I would LOVE to read it!

(Also, because I know that you love to change your quotes, I think I have the perfect one for you right now - "The important thing is not to stop questioning" -Albert Einstein.)

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#109829 - 06/14/06 08:32 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


this is one of my concerns too and I haven't jumped in yet, but I'd love to know hwo much calcium is ACTUALLY in Acacia gum powder as we use it now, because I take it as a supplement myself and have for a long time, as well as because of how it influences the gliders.. I'd rather use that then the other calciums in their diet if I thought the amounts would be appropriate for their dietary needs.. I worry about overcalcification as well as undercalcification for our babies on a regular basis... and can't wait until next week when I have my Marsupial Nutrition book that came in- Bill won't make it to pick it up until Fri or next Monday...

Amie

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#109830 - 06/14/06 10:00 AM Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As far at the book recommendation goes; my local library (which is actually linked to a bunch of libraries throughout the county I live in) doesnít have that book (or even anything remotely close to it), it seems to be out of print, and used it seems to be selling for about $65, so do you think that I could maybe borrow your copy or something, depending on what the shipping rates are? Because Iím not sure how else to get my hands on it, and I would LOVE to read it!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

LOL Actually, I borrowed Big_Ern's copy and though I was only supposed to keep it for a few weeks to a month or two, I ended up holding onto it for a whole year or so before sending it back to its rightful owner (sad day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) and for that I am ashamed. LOL.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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