Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
Lezly
Featured Member
Registered: 11/10/15
Posts: 851
Last 10 Posts
Melanistic Gliders
by Hutch
02:48 AM
Joeys and parents long term?
by Feather
08:38 PM
TheWildRose311
by Feather
08:37 PM
Double Critter Nation bedding ?
by Terry
04:42 PM
Custom Cage Liners Machine Wash & Dry
by Kp3690
08/20/17 08:30 PM
Camille
by Terry
08/20/17 04:08 PM
Round 3 the swelling starts
by Terry
08/20/17 04:06 PM
"Homemade" yogie treats
by KarenE
08/20/17 10:04 AM
Dear Crabby
by Feather
08/19/17 10:17 PM
2018 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw
08/18/17 08:46 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#1099808 - 04/14/11 09:02 AM Soy...Is it safe for gliders?
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


As with every thread in Fact versus Fiction, people are going to have to agree to disagree in some situations. Part of all of these discussions IS personal opinion and personal research. Yes, we would like to see facts, but discussions are just that - we discuss things, our experience, what we've heard, what we haven't. DO NOT turn this into a personal issue thread as it will be locked and removed permanently if we cannot keep this on topic. We would prefer not to, as we agree that soy can be controversial for some people and something that should be discussed.

I am changing the focus slightly to include any conversation about the possible safety (or lack of) with soy products, the added sentence to Lisa_NJG's post is below in blue. Text has been removed throughout to take the 'you' statements out and avoid the personal discussions. So - here we go. ~sugarlope


I have been reading a lot as of late.. (have had a lot of time at home), and have come across statements and discussions that have me a bit concerned as a breeder, and someone who gives a list of diets to my adopting families.

Does soy in diets inhibit calcium absorption?
Are there other concerns with feeding soy or certain soy products to gliders?

Please NOTE!!

This is not a drama post.. this is a legit question. I dont need people attacking each other. Id like this thread to stay open so that others who really wish to find out can do so.

If you have any findings either way, please post so that we can view the information and be sure that we are caring for our gliders in the best possible way.

Thanks so much for your help.


Edited by sugarlope (04/14/11 04:28 PM)
Edit Reason: edited title/text

Top
#1099846 - 04/14/11 11:17 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I have been feeding a Wambaroo HPS based diet (Reep's diet) for almost 7 years and do not have any calcium issues with my gliders. I had one glider break her leg (Spryte) but the xrays showed her bone density was perfect and it was caused by an accident, not dietary deficiency.

There are very many pros and cons with everything we choose to feed our gliders. Soy is one.

But you need to clarify what exactly you are wanting information about.

Tofu is made from soy beans. It is made from curdled soy milk. So basically it is all soy. Wambaroo High Protein Suppliment however only has soy as ONE of it's ingrediants.(Actually contains soy protein isolate)

I think like all parts of a glider's diet, what is important is MODERATION.

Quote:
There is no evidence to show that soy-based foods eaten in moderation as part of a varied diet, are harmful.

Apart from the estrogen-like effects of soy isoflavones, researchers believe that soy foods may help build healthy bones by increasing the body’s supply of calcium.

http://www.schsa.org/PublicHealth/pages/healthResources/healthwire/2001/04c.html




Quote:
This one tells of the cons of soy.
http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1099882 - 04/14/11 01:26 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Megs
Unregistered


I have spoken with several people who've all said that many studies show that soy inhibits calcium absorption. These aren't just neighbors. lol...
I originally asked the question when I was looking in to soy products. I don't like milk and there's something about the supplements available that make me sick, so I was seeking alternatives.
At the time I was working with a nutritionist who said soy inhibited calcium absorption. I then spoke with my physician, and from there several people who are nutritionists, physicians, etc.
Then I got gliders, and learning about diets, I came across the same question, but for my gliders.
The vets said yes, it's true. BUT... This is why ensuring you're feeding a proper ratio is so important, ESP. with soy based glider diets.
I feel rather inclined to believe the several people I've spoken to and go with 'if you feed a soy based staple, ensure you're feeding the 2:1 ratios via fruits and veggies'. I think the whole thing has been kinda of blown out of proportion because, honestly, we're always stressing a 2:1 ratios, especially with fruits/and veggies, OR as close to as possible.

Top
#1099894 - 04/14/11 02:11 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
I think this thread is looking for facts on the matter, not testimonies for a third party or 'factual opinions.' I for one would really like to -see- the facts on the subject.

I have not yet come across a research study that has said soy inhibits calcium absorption in humans or animals. To the contrary all studies I've seen indicate that soy is beneficial to bone health and formation.

There has been some research studies that have implied it MAY inhibit zinc and iron absorption, but not calcium.
_________________________
Allie

Skin baby:Rhydian
Kitties:Putz.Squeak.Pinky.Sparta.Francis.Harley
Puppies:Moxie.Piper Mae Sniffer

5/17/12Templeton
5/14/09Xena
2/13/09Fritz
10/23/12JD

Meet our Glider Rainbow!
www.wisconsinsugargliders.webs.com

Top
#1099895 - 04/14/11 02:16 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Soybeans are high in phytic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds. It's a substance that can block the uptake of essential minerals - calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and especially zinc - in the intestinal tract.



http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1099902 - 04/14/11 02:30 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


Please post links to facts.. that is what we are looking for. Thanks


Dancing, the last link you provided has some sort of add on it that will not let me close it.
Ok, I read above the add..and found where it says it CAN block..but not that it DOES block.. Unless I missed that part.


Edited by sugarlope (04/14/11 04:36 PM)
Edit Reason: edited text

Top
#1099904 - 04/14/11 02:37 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
I noticed this in the article:

Quote:
When precipitated soy products like tofu are consumed with meat, the mineral-blocking effects of the phytates are reduced.18 The Japanese traditionally eat a small amount of tofu or miso as part of a mineral-rich fish broth, followed by a serving of meat or fish.

Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known; those of zinc are less so.


The diets that have a soy component also offered a different variation of protein. Eggs, chicken, insects.....etc. So according to this article- would minimize any effects of the soy product. I'm not aware of any diet that states soy product and legumes should be substituted for animal proteins...


Edited by sugarlope (04/14/11 04:37 PM)
Edit Reason: edited text
_________________________
Allie

Skin baby:Rhydian
Kitties:Putz.Squeak.Pinky.Sparta.Francis.Harley
Puppies:Moxie.Piper Mae Sniffer

5/17/12Templeton
5/14/09Xena
2/13/09Fritz
10/23/12JD

Meet our Glider Rainbow!
www.wisconsinsugargliders.webs.com

Top
#1099917 - 04/14/11 03:04 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


Quote:

In regard to calcium and soy, the critical question is whether calcium is well absorbed from calcium fortified soymilk (nearly all soymilk in the United States is calcium fortified) because people who drink soymilk likely do it in place of cow’s milk, and the latter is a major source of calcium in the US diet. The evidence unequivocally shows that despite containing phytate and oxalate, calcium absorption from soymilk is essentially equivalent to calcium absorption from cow’s milk [10]. Calcium absorption from calcium-set tofu is also quite good [11].


found here: http://thesoyfoodscouncil.com/?p=166


Edited by sugarlope (04/14/11 04:41 PM)
Edit Reason: edited text

Top
#1099933 - 04/14/11 03:46 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I just want to say that I am very interested in the information that can possibly benefit those of us in the glider community that are obsessed with diets, like my self. What I truly do not want to read through is all the nit picking on each other because someone disagrees with you.

First of all it is ok to disagree with each other, and we should NOT take it as a personal attack because someone does. It is also possible to disagree without being snotty.

Thanks Dancing for your post as it contains the type of information that I think Lisa is looking for. No hearsay, no opinion. Just links from internet sites that can give a start in researching. Research that can help people make an educated decision for themselves how they want to feed their gliders. What one person agrees with, another will deny, and both may say it is fact, but in truth it is opinion.

Off topic, but illustrates my point: I say Arwen is the smartest glider ever. I state it as fact. But in truth its my opinion. I can show how brilliant she is, and even put her up against other gliders, and it may appear she is smarter. But its still opinion.

So we have soy, no soy in glider diets. I can research till my fingers fall off, and may say soy is ok. Dancing (for example) may research until hers fall off and will say its not ok.

We just want to compile as much info here on the subject that can be substantiated, so people can decide for THEMSELVES.

Now play nice everyone smile
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

Top
#1099975 - 04/14/11 04:44 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
In case anyone missed what I said above - Please keep the focus on soy. Please try to link to facts and sources when possible. Please stay away from personal issue discussions. Anything that pulls this off the topic of soy safety will be pulled. If it keeps going, the thread will be locked and removed.


Edited by KarenE (04/14/11 05:25 PM)
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#1099981 - 04/14/11 05:01 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


Waiting for the thread to reopen (thank you mods), I have come across some info that I think is beneficial and a bit more detailed?

Quote:

Bioavailability of Calcium in Soy Milk
A study by Robert Heaney and colleagues entitled "Bioavailability of the Calcium in Fortified Soy Imitation Milk, with some Observations on Method" (2000, The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition) found that calcium from soy milk, fortified with tri-calcium phosphate, has an absorption efficiency of 75% compared to cow milk. Another study by Yangdong Zhao entitled "Calcium Bioavailability of Calcium Carbonate Fortified Soy Milk is Equivalent to Cow's Milk in Young Women" (2005, The Journal of Nutrition) found that calcium carbonate in soy milk had the same bioavailability than calcium from cow milk and had a higher bioavailability than tri-calcium carbonate. The lower bioavailability of tri-calcium phosphate is probably coming from the phosphate, which precipitates the calcium in the intestine. Soy milk contains phytochemicals, such as isoflavones and phytic acid, which may influence calcium absorption. Some studies have shown that isoflavones stimulate estrogen receptors in the intestine and increase calcium absorption, whereas other studies failed to show such effect. Phytic acid is known to inhibit calcium absorption but the low levels (less than 0.01%) found in soy milk are unlikely to have any influence.


found here: http://www.soya.be/soy-milk-calcium.php

Something similar can be found here as well:
http://nutrition.about.com/od/meatsandproteinsources/a/soymineralsmyth.htm

Top
#1099983 - 04/14/11 05:08 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
There is tons of things that come up on Google search but I'm afraid if you are wanting the published results of actual clinical studies, you will have a very hard time finding them online. Most often those are published in some from of magazine or other and from those, people write articles (siting the source of their data).

Another thing you have to consider is I'm 99.999% sure that any article or study you find will NOT have been done on gliders.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1099993 - 04/14/11 05:27 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


Thats the thing though.. most info (opinions) being given are based on human consumption. However, one thing remains the same.. what soy contains. So when we are looking at these articles (some of which do list research history) we have to look at the break down of soy.

http://www.soyconnection.com/newsletters/soy-connection/health-nutrition/article.php/Calcium+Bioavailability+of+Soyfoods,+Dairy+Examined?id=44

This link in particular I believe is a bit more detailed and lists not only Authors but references as well.

Top
#1100002 - 04/14/11 06:14 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
There are parallels made between gliders and dogs, gliders and cats, gliders and other possoms/opossums, glider and humans all the time. We draw from the things we *think* know in other situations to try to guess at the things about gliders we don't (which is most of glider care, lol).

I know soy safety has been discussed a lot in the glider community. I used to feed tofu as part of my regular protein rotation for several years. This is some of what I have found so far -
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/glidervet-94.htm
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/69759/Dangers_of_Onion_Garlic_Lima_B
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...ater_s#Post4965 (it is difficult to read, as the old code hasn't been removed from the thread yet, but there is some interesting theory and soy discussion there)
There are a few other old posts, but most of the source links don't work anymore. ohwell

Actually - in perusing the info about soy safety concerns (I'm not talking specifically about WHPS here, I'm talking about some of the soy products) where estrogen is a concern, it does make me put an 'I wonder' out there about Kira. I was feeding her tofu as part of the protein rotation and my vet has always felt that her early issues were hormone related because she would shed fur (not overgroom) during her heat cycle and then fur would grow back until her next heat cycle. She got sicker while carrying her second set of joeys and now has the lump behind her pouch. (Her 1 daughter also lost fur during her heat cycle and I remember another female that had the same happen which was also attributed to hormonal issues).

I definitely think the type of soy product involved makes a difference when you are talking about the possible soy related problems. As one of the threads above discusses, some concerns over soy were how the product was manufactured, not just the inherent soy in the product. I imagine (totally personal theories, here) that different soy products would contain different amounts of the chemicals some deem a potential health concern.

WHPS has been used longer than I even remembered, in some glider owners as well as Australian zoos/rehabs/etc. Without noticeable ill effects.


Edited by sugarlope (04/14/11 06:18 PM)
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#1100017 - 04/14/11 06:56 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
buttercup
Unregistered


Yes, I am aware that these articles are in reference to humans and not animals...but the facts and details on soy and its pros AND cons are out there and should in fact be researched to the T.

Some articles I've found are:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/soymessina
The above link talks about several things on soy, including calcium

http://nutrition.about.com/od/meatsandproteinsources/a/soymineralsmyth.htm

This article talks with a Dr Messina, who is an assoc. professor on nutrition and expert on soy and nutrition. It also talks in length about the absorption of calcium in soy products.

http://www.rheumatic.org/soy.htm

This is an OLD article from 1995, but it does go into the history of the soybean, so it's a long read but pretty interesting. Lots of nutritional data regarding soy have been studied since 95 obviously but I think this is a good read.

I am also looking up certain ingredients in the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement and googling them individually. However I now feel like I'm in chemistry class LOL so I am slooooooowly reading up on them.

But so far, what I have been reading shows that there can be calcium absorption "problems" with soy (this was mostly regarding vegans and THEIR diet however), but by balancing the diets out with calcium carbonate or other calcium supplements OR with calcium rich vegetables, the body is able to absorb calcium proficiently.

And in using the Wombaroo high protein supplement for almost 3 years, my vet has never had an issue with my gliders overall health or with lack of calcium. I do want him to do a more in depth exam next visit and bring up with subject with him. And whatever I can get in writing from him, I will share.



Edited by buttercup (04/14/11 07:02 PM)

Top
#1100023 - 04/14/11 07:15 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


awesome.. thank you..:D

Top
#1100092 - 04/14/11 09:45 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: sugarlope]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: sugarlope
There are parallels made between gliders and dogs, gliders and cats, gliders and other possoms/opossums, glider and humans all the time. We draw from the things we *think* know in other situations to try to guess at the things about gliders we don't (which is most of glider care, lol).

I know soy safety has been discussed a lot in the glider community. I used to feed tofu as part of my regular protein rotation for several years. This is some of what I have found so far -
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/glidervet-94.htm
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/69759/Dangers_of_Onion_Garlic_Lima_B
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...ater_s#Post4965 (it is difficult to read, as the old code hasn't been removed from the thread yet, but there is some interesting theory and soy discussion there)
There are a few other old posts, but most of the source links don't work anymore. ohwell

Actually - in perusing the info about soy safety concerns (I'm not talking specifically about WHPS here, I'm talking about some of the soy products) where estrogen is a concern, it does make me put an 'I wonder' out there about Kira. I was feeding her tofu as part of the protein rotation and my vet has always felt that her early issues were hormone related because she would shed fur (not overgroom) during her heat cycle and then fur would grow back until her next heat cycle. She got sicker while carrying her second set of joeys and now has the lump behind her pouch. (Her 1 daughter also lost fur during her heat cycle and I remember another female that had the same happen which was also attributed to hormonal issues).

I definitely think the type of soy product involved makes a difference when you are talking about the possible soy related problems. As one of the threads above discusses, some concerns over soy were how the product was manufactured, not just the inherent soy in the product. I imagine (totally personal theories, here) that different soy products would contain different amounts of the chemicals some deem a potential health concern.

WHPS has been used longer than I even remembered, in some glider owners as well as Australian zoos/rehabs/etc. Without noticeable ill effects.


I have been pondering this for a while, and, I do have an anecdotal reference. I know, it's not pure research, but, she was experiencing hot flashes regularly. She tried various hormones, but, she was a smoker and the docs would only give her so much of anything. She tried different herbal remedies. What did work for her, was a glass of soymilk with dinner every night. So I think there must be a correlation somewhere, and definitely a difference in the preparation and type of soy product in question.

Considering how many have used HPWS over the years in several diets, I am not worried about its soy content.

Top
#1100218 - 04/15/11 12:24 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
buttercup
Unregistered


I too am not worried in the slightest with the Wonbaroo or Peggy's protein powders. Until vet checks prove otherwise...I'll keep using the diet I am using and make sure the diet is followed and my gliders eat and benefit from it.

I came across this site as well http://www.schsa.org/PublicHealth/pages/healthResources/healthwire/2001/04c.html but it states more on soy in women, bone density, estrogen, etc but it does go into pros and cons.

This article http://nutritiondiva.quickanddirtytips.com/soy-pros-and-cons.aspx goes into cons on soy and touches on fermented soy. Fermenting soy (Tofu is not fermented I read) is supposed to be safer and better for you (still talking people here) And says in part

Quote:
there are compounds in soybeans called phytates which can impair your ability to absorb certain nutrients. This is not unique to soy, however. Spinach contains compounds called oxalates, which do the same thing, and people don’t go around talking as if spinach were a vegetable from the dark side. Really, this is not a big deal if you’re eating soy in reasonable quantities as part of a nutritious diet.


So, I would think a batch of HPW, or the HPW Complete and Plus, blended thoroughly, shouldnt have an excessive amount of ANY of the ingredients in any given serving. Adding calcium rich fruits and vegetables has always been suggested with these particular diets to balance out the diet.

Top
#1100256 - 04/15/11 02:30 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
DianeR Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Newport News, Virginia
I haven't found anything in the literature yet that shows that soybeans inhibit calcium absorption. I'm still looking. I have found several vet handbooks and articles that recommend that soy products not be fed to marsupials, but no reasons are given.

I did find a study that compared two types of pollen with meal worms and other protein sources for essential amino acids. I also found a study that analyzed the essential amino acid composition for soy beans. (links to follow.)

Eucalyptus pollen mixture
(Amino acid percentage)

Methionine - 1.7
Lysine - 5.5
Arginine - 5.9
Histidine - 1.9
Iso-leucine - 3.3
Leucine - 6.6
Phenylalanine - 3.0
Threonine - 4.2
Tryptophan - N.M. (likely around 2.8)
Valine - 4.7

Banksia ericifolia Pollen
(Amino acid percentage)

Methionine - 1.6
Lysine - > 7.0
Arginine - 9.5
Histidine - 3.1
Iso-leucine - 3.5
Leucine - 7.2
Phenylalanine - 4.3
Threonine - 4.5
Tryptophan - 2.8
Valine - 4.1

Tenebrio molitor (mealworm) Haemolymph
(Amino acid percentage)

Methionine - 0.1
Lysine - > 4.4
Arginine - 2.3
Histidine - 5.9
Iso-leucine - 2.4
Leucine - 1.6
Phenylalanine - 1.3
Threonine - 0.4
Tryptophan - 0.6
Valine - 5.7

Soybean
(Amino acid percentage)

Methionine - 1.4
Lysine - > 6.6
Arginine - 7.7
Histidine - 2.3
Iso-leucine - 5.3
Leucine - 8.0
Phenylalanine - 5.0
Threonine - 3.9
Tryptophan - 1.5
Valine - 5.3

This paper is about another closely related insectivorous nectar and pollen feeding diprodont, Cercartetus nanus (eastern pygmy possum), and its nitrogen maintenance needs on the first three above protein sources. The author also discusses sugar gliders as well, so it is very much a good read if you are scientifically inclined. The link is: http://afivt.uaa.alaska.edu/Pdfs/peer%20...bert%201999.pdf

This is the link for the soybean data: http://www.jbc.org/content/177/1/29.full.pdf

So, there are just a few things that I want to point out about the data above, in light of what was stated in the paper cited. Gliders have the ability to recycle their waste urea in their cecum to amino acids and proteins, so their nitrogen and amino acid needs are different from mammals and other marsupials that can't do this.

According to the author,
Quote:
"...the biological value of eucalyptus pollen to Petaurus breviceps, a 150 g flower-feeding marsupial, was found to be high (66%; Smith and Green 1987), and its truly digestible maintenance nitrogen requirements on pollen were exceptionally low (73 mg N kg20.75 d21; Smith and Green 1987)."


What this means is that any protein source that is close to the make-up in amino acids to Eucalyptus pollen is good. Anything that is far off is not so good.

So, looking at Eucalyptus pollen vs. soy (pollen on left, soy on right):

Amino Acid
%
Methionine - 1.7 vs. 1.4
Lysine - 5.5 vs. 6.6
Arginine - 5.9 vs. 7.7
Histidine - 1.9 vs. 2.3
Iso-leucine - 3.3 vs. 5.3
Leucine - 6.6 vs. 8.0
Phenylalanine - 3.0 vs. 5.0
Threonine - 4.2 vs. 3.9
Tryptophan - N.M. vs. 1.5
Valine - 4.7 vs. 5.3

In many cases the percentage values of essential amino acids in soy beans are higher than found in Eucalyptus pollen. I'm not a nutritionist, so I'm not sure what that means, except that I'd personally rather feed Eucalyptus pollen than soy to my gliders if possible.

Anyway, there is the data.

Diane


Edited by DianeR (04/15/11 04:15 AM)
_________________________
Website: www.HighlandSugarGliders.com

Top
#1100260 - 04/15/11 02:49 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
DianeR Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Newport News, Virginia
I just want to point out that studies of soy consumption in humans may mean nothing when looking at diprodonts. If the studies aren't about marsupial nutrition in general and/or sugar gliders in particular, I'm not sure just how much the information is worth. Sugar gliders' digestion is very different from humans.

Diane

Edit: Oops! I just saw that this was already pointed out! (/facepalm)

Also, does anyone know what is the protein source in Arnold's Choice Possim Milk Replacer? I'm assuming its nutritional values are on par with Wambaroo, but the actual ingredients aren't listed on the site. http://www.sugar-gliders.com/possum-milk-replacer.htm


Edited by DianeR (04/15/11 02:59 AM)
_________________________
Website: www.HighlandSugarGliders.com

Top
#1100317 - 04/15/11 08:06 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
buttercup
Unregistered


Thanks Diane for those links...I need more coffee to get my head out of this fog before I start reading. Big scientific words this time of morning scare me LOL but I am looking forward to reading them!!

Top
#1100391 - 04/15/11 10:57 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


lol .. thats why I am taking my time before I sit and read through the links as well. I had one link that did my head in big.. LOL

Top
#1100394 - 04/15/11 11:03 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
DianeR Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Newport News, Virginia
You are welcome, Stephanie. I'm totally a geek and would be happiest (I think) with a couple of gliders down my shirt and lost in the journal stacks.

Speaking of which...

To give an idea of how very different humans are from sugar gliders... our ancestors diverged from theirs 144 MILLION (144,000,000) years ago.

So, I guess the lesson from that is to try very hard not to project human health and nutrition needs on them. FACTS are the most important of all, and the sad truth is we just need more data about what they need.

As a totally unrelated example, I was just reading up on the marsupial genome project that is underway, and looking at how very different their liver cytochrome (detoxing) enzyme systems are from ours... and being totally fascinated by the fact that some of them ingest stuff that would kill us in a heartbeat. Some can ingest aniline, for example, and simply convert it to a soluble, excretable, non-toxic substance. But that means that their livers really don't function like ours do, so conversely, things that might be okay for us may be terrible for them. They are almost like little aliens living amongst all us mammals since they function so very differently from us.

Here's the liver enzyme paper if you are interested: http://www.ecotox.org.au/aje/archives/vol13p53.pdf

Diane

edit: Gah! I just realized I jacked the thread! I'm sorry!



Edited by DianeR (04/15/11 11:05 AM)
_________________________
Website: www.HighlandSugarGliders.com

Top
#1100408 - 04/15/11 11:32 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Lisa_NJG
Unregistered


Diane,

This is what we are looking for. While soy might inhibit the absorption of calcium in humans, that is not to say that it would or would not react different in gliders. So altering any diet with soy, based on opinion, unless you have done specific research ON gliders with experts who can actually give you factual written data... could harm a glider more then help.

Im glad you are posting this.

Its the same thing others mentioned.. these are studies on humans.. you find few studies on gliders. I dont feel there have been enough, and not every vet has done the research. If that were the case, I would think there would be more data. I believe they look at soy the SAME way we did.. and applied the assumption theory.

Well I know an assumption theory, my father use to say it ALL the time..


Edited by sugarlope (04/15/11 01:42 PM)
Edit Reason: edited text

Top
#1100411 - 04/15/11 11:38 AM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Some animals can digest foods that would kill other animals. Take Koala's for example. They live off of Euc leaves. A very specific type of Euc that is poisonous to many (if not most) other animals.

Who's to say that soy isn't the perfect food for gliders? Who's to say that elm tree bark isn't the perfect food? The issue is, with gliders, we just don't know. There hasn't been enough research and a great deal of the research that has been done is not readily accessable on the web.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1100482 - 04/15/11 01:56 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
This is the last warning this thread will get. If you want the thread to remain on the board, I expect that everyone can be an adult and focus on the topic at hand, not on one individual. If another post has to be edited, the thread will not continue, which is sad, because soy has been long debated in the glider community and I think that more information is always better.

In case anyone would like to read over our drama policy - here you go:
Originally Posted By: GC's Drama Policy
We have repeatedly told the members of GliderCENTRAL we do not want any drama being brought and posted here. Well for the most part some have listened, and others haven't and that is getting out of hand. Failing to abide by our requests are a violation of rule 4. Yes we all know there is drama everywhere. GliderCENTRAL will not be the mid grounds for everyone to post about the drama no matter what it is or who is saying it. GliderCENTRAL is here for one reason and one reason only, to help the gliders and their owners and nothing more. Drama only takes away from gliders and their owners who need help. We have asked many times to leave the drama off, but it seems that some are just not listening. So now whats going to happen now? If you make a post about the drama, feed into the drama posts, instead of hitting the notify mod button so the post can be reviewed and removed, your account will be suspended for a period of time to be determined by the admins. We do not care what drama anyone is saying about anything, the bottom line is do not post about the drama here at GliderCENTRAL. This is not being done to keep people from talking, it is being done because we do not want drama here. We are sorry to have to do this, but we tried to ask nicely but that failed. KarenE even made a similar post earlier today stating. Drama posts WILL result in the loss of posting privileges for a time to be determined by Administration.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#1100516 - 04/15/11 02:45 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I for one want to add my own plea here. I have loved reading this so far. I dont want this thread to be locked because a few cant play nice.

DianeR, I love love love your posts. Keep it coming girl!
The links you provided are wonderful, and Dancing, you have great insight as well. Thanks to everyone who provided good links smile This is a wealth of info for people who really want to dig into the meat of this matter. Lets put differences aside "for the good of the glider"

Now back on topic...
Soy products. So far the calcium issue has been the focus. What about the issue of estrogen and soy products and its effect on gliders?
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

Top
#1100524 - 04/15/11 03:05 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
BindiAndScrubbie Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: Florida
This all makes my head spin. But I will say that I do occasionally feed organic Edamame to my gliders as a treat. They love it to pieces.
Now I'm not as comfy with it as I was yesterday so I think you all need to collaborate harder and come up with an answer and tell me what it is.

Like how I pass the buck? roflmao
_________________________
Davie

:rtmo:SpoiledRottenSuggies.com

Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy - Anne Frank

Top
#1100598 - 04/15/11 05:50 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
DianeR Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Newport News, Virginia
I found the paper about the nitrogen requirments of sugar gliders on a Eucalyptus pollen diet! Well, it's only the abstract... here it is: http://www.jstor.org/pss/30158630

About the only thing I can add at this point is that the calls have gone out in the scientific community for more research into metabolic processes and specific nutritional requirements for our little friends by vet boards and by marsupial nutritionists, and the work is being done. So more data will be forthcoming in the future. I'll try to keep my eyes out for anything new as it comes in.

To be fair, what has been developed in regards to treating nutritional deficiencies in sugar gliders has been for the most part successful. And considering those who worked out the issues and the treatments have been flying pretty much blind, so their successes are phenomenal. But other problems remain.

For example HLP is now understood both in its root causes and how to prevent it with sufficient calcium to phosphorus ratio. But the extra calcium can cause problems as well, like kidney and bladder stones from precipitated calcium. So perhaps the real problem is too much phosphorus in the diet rather than too little calcium. We'll see.

And blindness in joeys born to obese mothers is now preventable with vitamin A supplementation. But the issue of fat in glider diets is still being addressed. And vitamin A is toxic to the liver if too much is given... and we don't know their requirements if any in the wild for vitamin A.

Vitamin D supplementation is routine in domestic captivity for gliders because of HLP, but in the wild they have no way to convert the precursors of vitamin D to the active form of vitamin D (since they are never out in sunlight), and so in the wild this vitamin is not necessary, and it may be harmful.

It was recently discovered that sugar gliders, like domestic cats, produce their own vitamin C. (We have the genes for the enzyme but two of the three genes are missing key pieces, so for us we must supplement vitamin C.) Vitamin C or too many citrus fruits in sugar gliders' diets can lead to iron storage problems (since iron is so hard to excrete), and this is seen in the domestic pet population here in the US.

Most supplements and diets given to sugar gliders were originally developed for other animals, and have been adapted for use in sugar gliders. As more is discovered about the in-born nutrition requirements of sugar gliders I think we will be seeing some improvements to their supplementation and feeding guidelines, and hopefully some feeding options that more closely mimic their natural diet.

More here:

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/Sugar-Glider-Diet-Study.pdf

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vet...e=&pageID=6

And two books:

Digestive physiology and nutrition of marsupials
By Ian D. Hume http://www.amazon.com/Digestive-Physiolo...7962&sr=1-1

Marsupial Nutrition By Ian D. Hume http://www.amazon.com/Marsupial-Nutritio...7962&sr=1-2

Diane




Edited by DianeR (04/15/11 05:51 PM)
_________________________
Website: www.HighlandSugarGliders.com

Top
#1100611 - 04/15/11 06:21 PM Re: Soy...Is it safe for gliders? [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Thanks Diane!
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
1 registered (Kp3690), 17 Guests and 41 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
Glidermike, BeardedGlider, saharasnow, Louise, MzT3xdafun
6306 Registered Users
Forum Stats
6 posts in the last 24hrs
6306 Members
134 Forums
8813 Topics
147043 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
TheWildRose311
by Feather
08:37 PM
Joeys and parents long term?
by Pigbat
01:56 PM
Double Critter Nation bedding ?
by Kp3690
11:35 AM
Camille
by Feather
08/19/17 10:14 PM
"Homemade" yogie treats
by sugarfluff
08/19/17 05:44 PM
Joey or Full grown
by kinn2388
08/16/17 09:43 AM
How could I help this glider?
by MomoShiva
08/15/17 05:21 PM
One day too late
by CrypticDelirium
08/15/17 03:06 PM
a strange Diabetic question
by mechnut450
08/15/17 11:37 AM
Glider in distress
by maycstay
08/15/17 12:11 AM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20200260
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12461083
TEXAS 626357
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 560797
OHIO 482943
Member Titles 431326
MISSOURI 367455
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 342176
OKLAHOMA 328694
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 322802
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017