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#110760 - 06/16/06 01:45 PM WFB genetics explination
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
Genetics are a very complicated subject. I wont claim to be an expert, however I have been studying genetics for some time now.

Though it would take a specialized and controlled breeding program to determine what the WFB gene is, there are some possibilities:

1~ It is SEX LINKED and DOMINANT (on the x chromosome)
This explination is very plausable. Say a female had one x with WFB and one without REGARDLESS of whether the joey is male or female, there is a 50% chance of the joey being WFB. If a male has a WFB x, then any FEMALE joeys would be WFB. If the joey is not WFB it does not have any WFB on any x and cannot therefore produce WFB joeys. (this is my guess)

~WFB is Co-dominant
This is NOT plausable. Co-dominance would result in a mixture of grey and WFB and NO MATTER WHAT, the 2nd generation would have 50% WFB 50% grey (this is regardless of whether the parents were grey or not)


These are my thoughts... what do you think??
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#110761 - 06/16/06 03:29 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]I really don't get into the genetics of breeding at all, so I don't know if your explanation is right or not. I'm sure that someone will be along soon that will know, though...
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#110762 - 06/18/06 02:24 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oakley,
That's a great theory.. wonder if there is any evidence to back it up? Any breeders with WFB's have any records that might support this??

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#110763 - 06/18/06 02:55 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
yes, all breeders, have you ever bred a WFB male with a GRAY female? If so, were ALL female joeys born WFB and all MALE joeys GRAY???

I would LOVE to know, WE COULD FIGURE THIS OUT!!
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~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


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#110764 - 06/18/06 03:06 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know, I never thought about it being sex linked... and I've never bred before... but I know that my wes is grey, his twin sis is wf. His dad is wf & mom is grey...

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#110765 - 06/18/06 03:16 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
Yes I have a wfb male with a grey female. I've had a total of 7 babies. All 3 females were wfb, two males het and two males wfb. I don't know if that helps much but there you go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#110766 - 06/18/06 03:16 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
yes, all breeders, have you ever bred a WFB male with a GRAY female? If so, were ALL female joeys born WFB and all MALE joeys GRAY???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I had a WFB male with a gray female, and they had:

two girls, one WF one gray
one boy one girl, both wf
two girls, both wf
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#110767 - 06/18/06 03:43 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont accept that theory. It would be located on both. you need to make a punnet square.
W-wfb
w-grey

Say the female had it located on both hers it would be WW then all babies would be born wfb becuase of the square even if the male was plain grey, all the babies genes would look like this Ww. If the females gene was Ww and mated with a grey , 50% of the babies would be wfb.

http://www.faresearchalliance.org/images/punnet_square.gif

This square represents both parents having the chromosomes Ww and any babies with a big W(or A in the picture) would be wfb.



http://www.knowledgene.com/public/images/gene_school/Your_gene/bitterness1of1.jpg
Here is another explaining a wfb with a grey. A-wfb, and a-grey
Any baby that has a big A will be wfb.

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#110768 - 06/18/06 03:44 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


(i know my genetics.) send me a message if you would like me to farther clarify my explaination.

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#110769 - 06/18/06 03:45 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


(the sex of the animal doesnt matter becuase it is not a sex related gene)

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#110770 - 06/18/06 04:08 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
unfortunately, we have been discovering with gliders that simple punnet squares don't work. Glider colors are more complicated. I don't think it is linked to one single gene. I believe that the original post was questioning IF it is sex linked. I would have to say based on the replies so far, that no, it is not sex linked.
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#110771 - 06/18/06 04:10 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Punnent squares arent ment to be 100%accurate. They show the chances of getting a certain color. it all depends on which little spermie gets to the eggs first. so its a game of chance.

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#110772 - 06/18/06 04:24 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8321
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
I have a pair of a WFB and a grey and they have only produced twice for me, but the first time they had a male het and the second time they had a female het. I know that they produced a lot more WFB's for Sheila but I don't have thier previous joeys documented.
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#110773 - 06/18/06 04:34 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
yes, all breeders, have you ever bred a WFB male with a GRAY female? If so, were ALL female joeys born WFB and all MALE joeys GRAY???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Nope, as a matter of fact in this situation with a WFB male and a gray female, ALL joeys have been born WFB and 3 with W/T tails <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The daddy is a 3rd generation WFB.
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My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
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God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#110774 - 06/18/06 06:37 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I dont accept that theory. It would be located on both. you need to make a Punnet square.
W-wfb
w-grey

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Whether or not you accept it is not an issue here. You may look at the evidence of the breeding history and say that the evidence supports or refutes the claims but personal opinion is irrelevant. Also a dominant gene interaction is very different than a recessive gene interaction. With recessive genes a Punnet square would show that both parents would need to contribute a gene for the phenotype to be shown however with a dominant gene only one parent would need to contribute the gene.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Say the female had it located on both hers it would be WW then all babies would be born wfb because of the square even if the male was plain grey, all the babies genes would look like this Ww. If the females gene was Ww and mated with a grey , 50% of the babies would be wfb.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is true for a dominant trait. If a gene is dominant then only one copy is needed so lets say that gene X is dominant then a heterozygote carrier of that gene would show the phenotype as well as the homozygote of that gene. So that Xx and XX would both express the phenotype. Now if it is sex linked and is on the X chromosome then if a Normal female were mated to a WFB male then all the males would be normal since the male would only pass the y and the X were passed by the mother. Since this is not the case and there have been male WFB fathers that have produced male WFB sons then this theory is proven incorrect, but only so far as to say that it is not sex linked.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
http://www.faresearchalliance.org/images/punnet_square.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

There is a lot of genealogical data to suggest that WFB is not a simple one gene recessive trait. Here are two good websites that refer to genetics and help to give a good understanding of it.

This website explains the definitions used in genetics terminology and is a lot more detailed than is commonly used here:

Genetics Terminology

This website explains Mendillian Genetics and Punnet Squares in great detail:

Mendillian Genetics

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This square represents both parents having the chromosomes Ww and any babies with a big W(or A in the picture) would be wfb.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

It might not be as simple as a single gene. Lets take the case of albinism for example. There are many different steps that go into producing color in mice, if any one step is mutated it will cause the loss of color. Lets say that there are 5 steps that produce color in mice and they are: A-B-C-D-E-Albino. A mutation that effect the transition from B-C will cause albinism as will a mutation in A-B however if the mutation is recessive then breeding two albino mice once with a mutation in B-C and another with a mutation in A-B will not produce an albino because the genes are different and the good gene will compensate for the mutated gene and the phenotype will not be expressed.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
http://www.knowledgene.com/public/images/gene_school/Your_gene/bitterness1of1.jpg
Here is another explaining a wfb with a grey. A-wfb, and a-grey
Any baby that has a big A will be wfb.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I personally believe that the WFB is a one-gene dominant trait as there has never been a confirmed case of a WFB het and a WFB het producing a WFB. There have been claims by one breeder but that is too few to warrant calling it a simple one gene recessive trait. Given all the breeders breeding WFB hets together if the gene truly were a simple one gene recessive trait then many breeders would be producing WFB from WFB hets on a regular basis, not just this one breeder only one time. There is also the possibility that there are many genes (10 or more possibly) that make a WFB, and that these genes could be grouped closely enough in the genome that they can be all passed together during independent assortment. I do not feel however that there is any evidence to suggest that there are WFB hets. I also feel that selling of animals called WFB hets is deceptive as there has never been a confirmed case of two WFB hets ever producing a WFB.

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#110775 - 06/20/06 07:52 AM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
I believe WFB is something like eye color in humans. It is not simply genetic dominance or maybe not even sex-linked.

Sometimes color cannot be explained with mandelian genetics alone.

For example: Brown eyed father, Brown eyed mother

3 children:
Brown eyes
Blue eyes
Green eyes
????? it is the same with WFB, it will take extensive study to figure out their genetics and more than likely th WFB coloration is due to many different factors.
_________________________
Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site

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#110776 - 06/20/06 08:00 AM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
I believe that WFB is probably a simle case of a dominant trait.

Only one is needed to show the phenotype, Bb

and those without WFB coloring, bb have no WFB genes.

Those with two WFB chromosomes BB would ALWAYS produce joeys of WFB regarless of the other parent's genotype.

If this is true, ot also explains why there are so many different stories of WFB breeding. Why some pairs ALWAYS produce WFB and why others sometimes produce them and sometimes do not.
_________________________
Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site

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#110777 - 06/20/06 08:12 AM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


One thing we do know is that you only need one wf parent to produce wf joeys. If there was such a thing as a wf het, that would mean that a normal colored glider carried the wf gene. If it carried the gene, wouldn't it be able to produce wf joeys without even having to be paired to another "het"? If that was the case, there would be a lot of wf joeys popping up out of normal looking gliders, which to my knowledge, has never happened.

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#110778 - 06/20/06 11:06 AM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I said i dont accept it becuase he/she asked what we thought of it. I found that offensive. and many or most people would agree with my theory of it being simply a dominent trait of Xx.

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#110779 - 06/21/06 06:14 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, now I'm cross-eyed from reading this...

lol

I'll stick to the arts and leave the science for you guys. tounge

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#110780 - 06/22/06 07:59 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If the trait were single gene dominant than I’m pretty sure there would be a lot more WFBs out there because any two WFBs that were bred together would have at least 75% WFB phenotype(showing WFB) babies, that doesn‘t seem to be occurring here. That is saying that this is as simple as a one gene punnet square but it seems to me that it probably is not.
Hopefully it will be figured out for sure someday soon but until then every one just keep bring-up, testing and questioning all the theories you can think of and good luck!!!

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#110781 - 06/22/06 09:59 PM Re: WFB genetics explination [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It does breed about 70%. And if you compare WFB and leucistics, both colorvariations appeared about the same time but the leucistic is still rare. There are a lot of WFB out there and they are starting to drop in price.

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