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#1107811 - 05/02/11 10:22 AM Your rights at the vet office
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13744
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I've seen several situations this year, where vets have refused to listen to advice or desires and did what they wanted to do, irregardless of what was best for the glider, with way less than positive outcomes.

I know vets go to school for training and may have years of experience. I know some have what they believe is the best way to do something.

This does not mean they are a good choice for your suggie.

YOU are your gliders voice. They can't speak for themselves. YOU are the boss, not the vet. These gliders belong to YOU, not your vet. YOU are the one providing their aftercare in most cases, not your vet.

For example:
*If you say you want a pom on neuter, no stitches, no glue, with take home pain meds, then that's what the vet should do. They shouldn't ignore your wishes and tell you they're going to do pom off, with glue, because it's the most popular way to neuter.

*If you're told to not feed the glider after midnight, but you know that means your glider will have gone basically 48 hours with very little food, which can cause low blood sugar, let alone a very hungry, high metabolism animal. If you discuss your concerns and the vet still insists on no food, then maybe you should reconsider using that vet.

*If your vet isn't experienced or knowledgeable in treating gliders and refuses to listen to you, experienced GC members and the highly experienced consulting vets, is this really someone you want to trust your baby with?

I'm not saying, don't listen to your vet, or ask for treatment you don't know anything about. Again, your vet has training to care for animals. But if you're gut tells you this particular decision doesn't feel right, then listen to it. Get a second opinion. It's not only your right, it's what your suggie deserves.

My vet says she knows gliders but knows I know MY gliders. She listens to me, my concerns, my suggestions. She accepts the experiences of the GC members who have given advice. She has also willingly and readily, consulted with one of the consulting vets. (List is below) She is constantly researching and open to learning. She knows, there will always be something to be learned. She has learned about gliders with me as I learned. I remember my very first visit. She looked at my first glider, and said if his teeth grew much more, she would have to trim them and I agreed. Fast forward four years. Last Friday, she did a laser neuter and not only let me watch, but let me video it, to help educate everyone here. I trust her judgement and she trusts mine. We have a wonderful relationship, in which my suggies greatly benefit!

If your vet is not glider experienced, or needs help, these are experienced sugar glider vets, who will consult with your vet by phone. They will speak only to other vets.

Dr. Tim Tristan
OSO Creek Animal Hospital
361-994-1145

Dr. Bradley Walsh
Village vet Animal Clinic/All Creatures Veterinary Hospital
918-258-0040

Dr. Andrew Grzanowski
Canton Center Animal Hospital
734-459-1400

Dr. Kate Zimmerman
TriCounty Animal Hospital
(Has 24hr emergency contact info on her office answering machine)
423-391-0303

Dr. Paul Welch
Forest Trails Animal Hospital
918-299-8448

Dr. Teresa Bradley
Belton Animal Clinic
816-331-3120

Dr. Kristen West
Mandel Veterinary Hospital
216-321-6040
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1107826 - 05/02/11 11:07 AM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
I agree and disagree. Early on in my ownership, I always let the vet make the calls. I knew I wasn't educated enough to make these decisions for my babies and a vet is a vet for a reason. As my experience with sugar gliders grew, I became more confident in asking questions and pressing for what I want done.

I should mention I have two vets. One is less experienced admittedly, but is literally less than five minutes from my home (emergency vet) and the other is a short distance away (20 min) and is highly experienced (my regular vet).

On more than one occasion, I've consulted both. It helps to have two opinions and if they both say the same thing, I tend to side with that argument.

Dr. King is my regular vet. He has done as I asked every time. In one situation, I wanted fecals done and he argued that it wasn't necessary. He did the fecals anyway (and my gliders were clear) because I am the owner of these animals and he understands that when I tell him I want something done, it should be done. There was another situation with a younger joey that had a tail injury. The wrap he was using wasn't keeping her from getting to her tail and self-mutilating. Per a suggestion I had read here on GC about using a syringe tube to wrap the tail, Dr. King and I decided to try it. It worked! He now uses this method for other tail injuries. thumb

So, I think it depends. I think that if I were meant to make every call for my pets, I would be a vet. I have them for a reason and I have to trust them to do what's best for my babies. I would never tell anyone to ignore their vet's advice. However, I would tell someone to make certain the vet or vets they choose to use with their gliders is knowledgeable about gliders. There is no harm in looking around and checking into different vets. Find the one that works best for you. Use good judgment and try to make the best decision for you and your babies.
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#1107835 - 05/02/11 11:35 AM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
sunjana1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 711
Loc: Portland, OR
The problem with this suggestion is that clients who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about pretend to or think that they do. Thanks to Dr. Google, now everyone is an expert on their pets' care. I still overhear folks saying that used motor oil is a wonderful flea treatment for their dog...

I could go on an on on this subject, but I think it's easier just to say for non-emergencies take the time and do your research and find a vet that fits you from the start. Don't try and make your vet fit into your expectations after the fact. Yes, if you disagree go get a second opinion, but you don't have to tell your existing vet you're doing that.

For emergencies, well, you're pretty much at their mercy. But if you get a [censored] emergency vet, chances are that asking them to consult with "a more knowledgeable vet" isn't going to make them any less [censored].
_________________________
Jana
Twitter
Glider Photos
Dee Dee - Rat Terrier, :rtmo: - Dave, :wfb: - Tim

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#1107870 - 05/02/11 01:25 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
SGQ Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 524
Loc: Grand Junction, Colorado
I agree. I found myself in a situation that.. albeit wasn't as severe as some of the others I have seen here.. but it was horrible none the less. Something so simple as disagreeing about e-collars. I should have been louder.. I should have *insisted* the vet hold him and I will put it on him then. I know my glider, I knew he was lonely, I knew he was picking at his chest and needed the collar for a neuter. I knew. Instead I got pushed out the door being told he would be fine~ even after we had watched him rip his pom open. Even after he had to have another surgery.

I agree if something doesn't feel right.. then it probably isn't.




I am wondering if anyone can tell me what each of the consulting vets specializes in.. like what kind of issues each of them are really experienced in. My vet, gladly took a list of those vets~ and hopefully we never need them. But I would like to know if one of them is best to call in cases of cancer, amputations, penis issues... and so on..
_________________________
~~Chrystal~~
My beautiful pair~

Zinger (aka:Evan) :wfb:
Karma (aka:Ivy) :grey:

:rbridge: Thor 12/24/10
heart Twinkie 11/26/11

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#1107927 - 05/02/11 03:36 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: sunjana1]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: sunjana1
The problem with this suggestion is that clients who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about pretend to or think that they do. Thanks to Dr. Google, now everyone is an expert on their pets' care. I still overhear folks saying that used motor oil is a wonderful flea treatment for their dog...

I could go on an on on this subject, but I think it's easier just to say for non-emergencies take the time and do your research and find a vet that fits you from the start. Don't try and make your vet fit into your expectations after the fact. Yes, if you disagree go get a second opinion, but you don't have to tell your existing vet you're doing that.

For emergencies, well, you're pretty much at their mercy. But if you get a [censored] emergency vet, chances are that asking them to consult with "a more knowledgeable vet" isn't going to make them any less [censored].


I think this is really true. Are things going to sometimes happen, yes - absolutely. vets make mistakes just like doctors do with humans. We are ALL human, it happens.

This is part of the reason we say find a vet before you need one. Talk things over with them before it's an emergency and you are in a panic. If you don't trust your vet, then you need to trust them in an emergency. If you do not trust them - then you need to find a vet that you will, even if that means you are driving an hour or more to get there each time. If something your vet says doesn't sound right, then go get a second professional opinion.

If you walk in like a know it all, then realize that you already have a strike against you with the vet. No one appreciates being told how to do their job (that they went to years of school and more years of experience) by someone off the street. Nope, they aren't going to have all of the answers all of the time - but those of us who haven't even gone to vet school certainly don't either.

My opinion is - yes - we are the animals voice, it is our responsibility to know our animals, what is normal for them and what is not so that we can relay this information to the vets. If there is something you are not comfortable with, discuss it with the vet - if the vet is certain of their decision, either choose to trust them or choose not to. If you choose not to, ask for your animal back and take them elsewhere. As Jana said above, though, in an absolute emergency, you are at their mercy.

The recent situation with a glider is not common. I don't think we can throw out our faith in the entire vet community just because of the poor decisions of one vet.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1107932 - 05/02/11 03:42 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13744
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I see the points being made. I didn't mean for each glider owner to question every decision made by their vet. As stated, they are educated and experienced and just as we do for dr's we go to ourselves, we should listen to them, their experience and knowledge and trust them, up to a point.

What I'm talking about are the vets who are unbending in their ways of practicing. They refuse to listen to suggestions by owners, give no credence to the experience of GC members and refuse to call regular vets or consulting vets when asked.

Brandi's case is a good example. The vet who did so much wrong to Simba, refused to listen to Brandi, call her vet or call a consulting vet. As a result, Simba has gone through way more than he should ever have and may be permanently affected.

I got a PM from someone saying they asked their vet to do a pom on, no stitches or glue neuter and the vet refused, saying they were going to do a pom off, because it was the popular way to neuter.

These are the types of situations I'm talking about.
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1107935 - 05/02/11 03:51 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
Well, with any situation involving the health of a sugar glider, if you are uncomfortable with a vet's methods, demeanor, treatment of your animal, etc it is your right to find another vet. I absolutely feel lucky to have such a great vet with Dr. King.
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#1107940 - 05/02/11 03:58 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13744
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I know what you mean. I feel extremely blessed to have my vet!
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#1107954 - 05/02/11 04:33 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
heidi Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1661
Loc: conway south carolina/ us
amen connie prech on.last month a lone i was in a whirl wind with a vet if it was not for you and krys kritter i could have lost a glider. just becouse the vet was holler than tough. kryes vet i dint agree with everything he said, though he listened to me. he heared me and he worked with me. i did not feel like i was just one of those glider people thinking they know everything. i felt like i was a conserened mom and this lil man may only have been mine a day but he needed help and i wanted help. i just was not going to let you do what you wanted becouse you where the vet. i still can not thank the two of you enuff( connie and krys kritters) Eddie got a email with the picks also. and papa is 100% better. he will be on meds a coupple more days but no problems at all. FIND A vet THAT LISTENS TO YOU AS WELL AND ONE YOU TRUST BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!!!!!!!
_________________________
"promise me you'll always remeber:you're braver than you believe,and stronger than you seem,and smarter than you think" christopher robin to pooh

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#1108109 - 05/02/11 11:16 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
sunjana1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 711
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: suggiemom1980


I got a PM from someone saying they asked their vet to do a pom on, no stitches or glue neuter and the vet refused, saying they were going to do a pom off, because it was the popular way to neuter.

These are the types of situations I'm talking about.


This is a good example. I just simply don't believe it would be my place to tell my vet how I wanted a neuter done. If I was that passionate about it instead I would find out beforehand what vets used the method I preferred and go from there. That vet may have had lots of great reasons (I believe it was not long ago Dr. Tristen concluded pom off was the preferred method *for him*) why he wanted to do the neuter that way. If he was unbending, I belive that to be *his right to perform the surgery as he desired. If that makes the client uncomfortable its *their right to go elsewhere, without demanding or being judgemental.

The situation with Simba as mentioned was a rare and unfortunate occurance and yes, that vet should go before the board to explain his practices.

I think these 2 examples identify clearly defined situations and possible reactions to them. I imagine most cases will fit into these 2 realms.

This is a wonderful discussion Connie has brought up and I hope to read and learn what more have to say. Its certainly thought provoking.
_________________________
Jana
Twitter
Glider Photos
Dee Dee - Rat Terrier, :rtmo: - Dave, :wfb: - Tim

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#1108115 - 05/02/11 11:28 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


I think most important is to have a repore with a vet such that when you say something is not right, the vet listens and is not dismissive of you as the owner. How many have gone to the people doctor to be told "it's allergies" and a week later STILL be sick and finally go back and get the antibiotics you KNEW in your gut you needed the first time?

vets are wonderful, but neither are they perfect. We owe it to ourselves and our pets to speak up if we think something is amiss. To get the second opinions. This doesn't mean be confrontational, but, anything can be approached respectfully. Ideally we all come out with a better understanding.

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#1108368 - 05/03/11 01:51 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Quote:
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what each of the consulting vets specializes in.. like what kind of issues each of them are really experienced in. My vet, gladly took a list of those vets~ and hopefully we never need them. But I would like to know if one of them is best to call in cases of cancer, amputations, penis issues... and so on..


I can only speak for the two that I have used extensively.

Dr. Grzanowski
is the vet that initially saved Jackie Chan and gave us hope for him. He has the most experience in treating the massive swelling and SMing that Jackie Chan experienced in my first year with this special glider. He also has a lot of experience with neuters.
So,
paralysis
Self Multilation
Traumatic amputation
Neutering


Dr. B Walsh is the vet I currently use. As a rescue home who takes in many very sick and injured gliders, I do have occasion to visit Dr. Walsh with a lot of different illnesses and injuries. The ones that I see most often in my home (and therefore that he treats most often) are open wounds, broken bones, seizures and facial abscesses. Dr. Walsh is the primary care vet for all of my special needs gliders and all rescues in my home.
He has successfully treated a wide variety of issues in sugar gliders, including HLP, facial abscesses, UTI, multiple broken bones (i.e. 2-3 legs broken at one time), self-mutliation, inability to synthesize vitamin C, open wounds (including very, very large wounds), fused joints, hair loss, dietary allergies, paralysis, neuropathy, respiratory infection, parasites, salmonella, pasteurella, eye abscesses and removal, amputation, and a variety of other issues.


Edited by Jackie_Chans_Mom (05/03/11 01:52 PM)
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1108394 - 05/03/11 02:52 PM Re: Your rights at the vet office [Re: suggiemom1980]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I have 2 vets. I like them both because they are not afraid to say "what do YOU think?" to me. Thats all I am going to say on this.
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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