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#111578 - 06/19/06 09:48 PM What 2 breed 2 get WFB?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes what would you have to breed to get a WFB? WHat could you breed to a cinnamon or a grey sugar glider to get a WFB?

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#111579 - 06/19/06 09:55 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Only a WFB has been known to produce a WFB. This gene appears to be a simple dominat gene controled mechanism however it could be much more complex. There was only one breeder ever to have claimed of producing a WFB from two WFB hets and that was never confirmed. That, therefore does not rule out the one gene dominat theory. However a series of genes could also explain this variation, though the more genes that are involed the rarer the variation becomes, unless the genes that are involved in this variation occur close enough to eachother that they are commonly passed as a chunck of genes via independent assortment. The surest way to breed a WFB is to buy a WFB and breed it.

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#111580 - 06/19/06 09:56 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
GliderHappy81 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: NC
You would have to breed a wfb to get a wfb. You could also get a wfb with a het for wfb but your chances are higher with an actual wfb. Make sense? lol!
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#111581 - 06/19/06 09:58 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
GliderHappy81 Offline
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Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: NC
Oh, so you cant get a wfb with a het for wfb? Ok, well scratch part of my answer then. LOL! I am still learning these things too.....
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#111582 - 06/19/06 10:01 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
As far as I know, there really is no "het" for WFB..

I was once told that in order for one to be considered a het for WFB that BOTH parents had to be WFBs themselves...
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#111583 - 06/19/06 10:02 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yall lost me lol.
1. Could I breed a WFB and a cinnamon to get a WFB. Yes, No, or maybe
2.What about a WFB to a WFB Het to get a WFB. Yes, No, Maybe
Sry, but all lost me

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#111584 - 06/19/06 10:02 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
I believe it is possible to get a WFB from a WFB x WFB het pair. To get a WFB out of a Gray or Cinnamon, you would need a WFB as the other parent.
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#111585 - 06/19/06 10:04 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You will not get a WFB from a het from WFB, if that was possible more people would have been able to do it. The one breeder that claims to have done this was never confirmed. There is no such thing as a WFB het. If the gene is dominat then if you do not show the variation you do not have the gene, there is geneological evidence that highly suggests this.

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#111586 - 06/19/06 10:06 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yea. Have a Female or Male WFB and a female or male cinnamon and breed them to get a WFC( White Face Cinnamon) or a WFB. I maybe wrong about the WFC seen it on here some were. I am confusing my self now. Ok I need a answer 2 .2


Edited by gliderlover92 (06/19/06 10:09 PM)

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#111587 - 06/19/06 10:07 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
GliderHappy81 Offline
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Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: NC
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh! Wow!
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#111588 - 06/19/06 10:09 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WFB acts as a dominat gene breed it to any color variation you want and you will get WFB produced out of it. Only one copy of the gene is needed from one parent for the offspring to show WFB.

Remeber there is no such thing as a WFB het. All the reputable breeders have stopped selling "WFB hets" because there is sufficient evidence againts the exhistance of the WFB het. So if you buy a WFB het what you are really buying is a glider that will not produce WFB and that could be better classified as normal.

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#111589 - 06/19/06 10:14 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok so you cant get a wfb from a het wfb but I can get a wfb from a cinnamon and a wfb

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#111590 - 06/19/06 10:28 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


it's a possibility, but I don't think you will be asured of getting a WFB from that pairing... the higher the WFB generation (so the more WFBs in it's lineage), the more likely you should be to get a WFB

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#111591 - 06/19/06 11:04 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes you will get a wfb joeys some of the time with a wfb bred to a het OR a wfb bred to a cinnimon. You might actually get wfc, but I don't know how the cinnies come into play.
I had a wfb het (when they were still called hets! so really a gray) paired up with a wfb and they had 6 wfb babies and 3 normal babies.

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#111592 - 06/20/06 05:48 AM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#111593 - 06/20/06 06:38 AM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
1 wfb parent + 1 gray parent = wfb or wfgray joeys some of the time.

1 wfb parent + 1 cin parent = wfb, wfg or wfcin joeys some of the time.

1 wfb parent + 1 wfb parent = wfb joeys more often but not always.

You can still have classic grey joeys with any of these combos.

There is no such thing as a "wf Het". With two leu hets, there have been leu joeys born. So, we KNOW there is such a thing as leu hets. There has never been any verifiable wf born from two "wf hets" so that has led to the conclusion there is no such thing as "wf hets".
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#111594 - 06/20/06 03:56 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
the higher the WFB generation (so the more WFBs in it's lineage), the more likely you should be to get a WFB

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The only thing breeders are trying to do when they breed multiple WFB generations together is to make the WFB dominant heterozygote, homozygous. Now you are saying stop. I thought you just said that there is no such thing as a WFB het. Well that is not exactly true. A Heterozygote refers to the genetic make up. Because there is a good deal of evidence to suggest that WFB is a single gene dominant trait only the WFB phenotype animals can be heterozygous for WFB. However there should also be homozygous WFB, which would mean that a glider that had two copies of the WFB gene would always have WFB joeys. However; because it is possible does not mean that you will ever see a WFB homozygote. It is possible that two copies of the WFB is a lethal genetic factor. You may never know that this is occurring because the homozygote could fail to form in the womb and die and be reabsorbed before being born and crawling into the pouch. Also if it is not a lethal gene as a homozygote you cannot prove that you have one by simply breeding, though you can disprove you have one. This means that as long as a WFB is out of two WFB parents and as long as that WFB never has any non-WFB gliders then it is possible that the glider is a WFB homozygote. However; the first time that it produces non-WFB joeys it is disproven as a WFB homozygote. A WFB homozygote will only pass one of two genes. Since it only has WFB genes to pass it will always pass the WFB gene. A WFB that passes a normal gene will produce a normal glider, if it is not being bred to another WFB. This is why breeders are breeding 4th generation WFB and higher, because by doing so they increase their odds of producing a WFB homozygote. There is a flaw to this breeding method and that is if a WFB is born out of a WFB X WFB breeding it does not mean it will be a WFB homozygote. There is a 1/3 chance that a WFB is a WFB homozygote out of WFB x WFB parents. By keeping accurate records as a group all the 4th generation WFB X WFB can be assessed. If there are still WFB x WFB producing normals at this level then as a group they are all not WFB homozygotes. Until a statistical analysis is done on the pairings you cannot say that the method is working or not. What should be done is to take the total number of WFB X WFB 3 generation breedings and see the ratio of normal to WFB and keep comparing this to the 4th generation ratio and the 5th generation ratio and so on until there is a sufficient confidence interval (the accepted value is 95% or greater for most scientific literature) using a statistical analysis. Then the breeders could say with a 95% confidence level that this 6 generation WFB is a WFB homozygote. That is the way that the WFB issue should be approached.

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#111595 - 06/20/06 10:12 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Chris, could you break that down in english please??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
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#111596 - 06/20/06 10:21 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> I love Chris post even if it takes me a few HOURS to put it all together! Nothing you are doing wrong Chris it just goes in one ear and out the other until I read it over and over again.

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#111597 - 06/21/06 01:39 AM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok lets start with some baisic truths about WFB breeding.

1) WFB breeds like it is a dominant trait.

This means that you only need one parent to carry the gene for a WFB offspring to be born.

2) A glider that is WFB can either be heterozygous or homozygous, but a normal looking glider cannot be heterozygous for WFB.

The zygosity of an animal refers to the genetic makeup of the particular gene of interest, in this case WFB gene. Remember that a dominant gene only needs one copy for the trait to be expressed. Lets say that W represents the WFB dominant gene then a Homozygote would be WW, a Heterozygote would be Ww, and a normal looking non-gene carrier would be ww. If a homozygote is bred to a normal non-gene carrier then it will always produce a heterozygote Ww, thus all the joeys will be WFB. If a heterozygote is bred to a normal 50% of the joeys will either be WFB or Normal.

3) A WFB can never be proven homozygous by breeding.

I will give you an example. Lets say that you flip a coin what are the chances it will be heads or tails? 50% right. Is it possible to flip that coin 10 times and never see heads? What about 20 or 30 times? Yes it is. Does this change the fact that the chaces of seeing heads or tails is 50%? No. The same thing is true for the WFB. Just because a WFB heterozygote has never produced a normal does not mean that it is not a WFB heterozygote. I have see a WFB glider produce 7 consecutive WFB joeys. The eighth was its first normal. Had one assumed that this animal was a WFB homozygote they would have been proven wrong.

4) You cannot prove that a glider is a homozygote (outside of genetic testing), but you can prove it is not a heterozygote.

We have established that WFB breeds like a dominant trait. A glider that is homozygous can only give its offspring the WFB gene. So it is if two WFB homozygotes are bred together then they will only be able to give their offspring WFB genes and they will only ever be able to produce WFB joeys. Only a heterozygote can give either a WFB or a normal gene. Therefore if you are breeding your WFB and you have a normal then you have proven that it is not a WFB homozygote because it is not possible for a homozyous for WFB to give its offspring anything but WFB genes. If however we knew the gene that controled the WFB trait we could test the animal for the gene and determin if it was homozygous or heterozygous. This is not possible at this time as we do not know what gene to test for. This is the only way to prove that an animal is homozygous.


When a breeder breeds two WFB together and produces an offspring, the offspring is called a 1st generation offspring. If a breeder breeds two first generation offspring together then it produces a 2nd generation offspring. If a breeder breeds a 1st generation offspring to a 2nd generation offspring it will produce a 2nd generation offspring. If a second generation offspring is bred to a normal then you lose your generation number for that offspring and it is considered as being a 0 generation offspring. You will need to read that over a few times to understand it probably.

The reason breeders are breeding like this is to produce the homozygous WFB. If we take, as a group, all the WFB 2nd generation x WFB 2nd generation breeding and compared it to the WFB 3rd generation X WFB 3rd generation breedings we would expect to see fewer normals produced if there are more WFB homozygotes being produced. We can use statistics to disprove or fail to disprove this hypothesis. How this is done statistically would be difficult to explain without teaching a statistics course. But it can be done with a certain confidence level (this is a term used to state the probability of a conclusion being correct). This analysis will never prove that an animal is or is not a WFB homozygote, but as a group it will show with a confidence interval that there are WFB homozygotes and that breeding the WFB generations to each other progressively increases the number of WFB homozygotes. This analysis cannot tell you how many there are or if a glider is or is not a WFB homozygote. I will need the following information to do this analysis:

Only the breeder that bred the animal should provide me with this information.

For each litter produced by a pair:

Number of normals
Number of WFB
Litter size
Number of males
Number of females

The sex ratio will be determined to see if the WFB gene is sex linked. If it is then the existence of a WFB male out of a normal female WFB male breeding disproves the WFB gene as being dominant.

The litter size will be used to determine if the WFB homozygote is lethal. If it is lethal then breeding WFB to a normal will produce 1/4 more joeys than breeding WFB to WFB, on average.

The ratio of WFB to normal joeys would expect to be increased as you breed a higher generation numbers, if the WFB gene is not lethal.

I will collect the data and use a statistical analysis to fail to disprove or disprove these points.

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#111598 - 06/21/06 08:26 AM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
When a breeder breeds two WFB together and produces an offspring, the offspring is called a 1st generation offspring.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually, if two wf gliders produce a wf joey, that offspring is considered second generation. A first generation wf comes from breeding a wf to a normal.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If a second generation offspring is bred to a normal then you lose your generation number for that offspring and it is considered as being a 0 generation offspring

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This offspring would actually be considered a first generation wf.

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#111599 - 06/21/06 04:27 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok I get it now.

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#111600 - 06/21/06 04:37 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


wow Chris - you have a lot more patience than I do, to type all that out...

I never considered the possibility of a leathal homozygote! I hope the numbers don't pan out to show that as it would mean a lot of babies wouldn't make it, if you ever get the numberes and need help with the stats, please let me know! (I work as a research scientist, I've gotten good with stats...)

thanks for specifying what I wrote, to those who can follow it, your explanation is great... I think I dumbed it down too much this time... ahh to find a happy medium!

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#111601 - 06/21/06 11:15 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually gizmo that is incorrect and is a big misconception. I work in a lab that breeds mice and I have to track generation numbers all the time for inbred mice, the priciple is the same. It is as I have stated it eariler in my previous post. A zero generation WFB is a WFB that is not bred to a normal, A 1st generation WFB is one that is out of two WFB parents.

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#111602 - 06/21/06 11:29 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris, it doesn't matter how they count generations with mice. Maybe we do it incorrectly, but I assure you, that is not how we count generations with wf gliders.

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#111603 - 06/22/06 11:01 AM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


all the breeders that I know... inlcuding my self count the generation the way that Gizmogal mentioned. We may be doing it wrong according to how you do it with mice. But the way Stacie mentioned is how we all have been doing it for years...

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#111604 - 06/22/06 04:08 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That really does not matter now that I know how it is being done. Just as long as if a secon generation and second generation are mated that the offspring is considered third generation.

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#111605 - 06/22/06 04:24 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, Kris, that is correct. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#111606 - 06/22/06 07:41 PM Re: What 2 breed 2 get WFB? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


And it is Chris not Kris, lol

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