Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Featured Member
Registered: 01/26/17
Posts: 168
Last 10 Posts
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
08:04 PM
My Caramel Gliders anything I need to know about neutering?
by AlyCatz
06:30 PM
Gliders of the Round Table 5
by Feather
05:38 PM
Dear Crabby
by Feather
05:31 PM
Is a glider right for me?
by Feather
05:21 PM
Three weeks in, first timer, questions .
by Feather
05:12 PM
RIP Spencer
by KarenE
09:41 AM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by Srlb
12/10/17 10:54 AM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/09/17 10:14 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/09/17 07:13 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#1116199 - 05/19/11 11:13 AM Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas

Earlier this year (2011), Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary published a blog on a variation of the so-called "wet method" of introduction. I made variations to it after speaking to Kazko over at GG in January and after hearing of his success with the method. The variations we made included a gentler way to get them wet and an experiment in scent masking.

The reaction from the glider community at large was mixed - ranging from accolades from beleaguered "at risk" glider owners who found hope in the method - all the way to "agitated and angry" from others. A lot of explanations, argument, and rationalizations ensued. It was determined that a good way to air the issue was to get the opinion of veterinarians.

At that point, we made a promise to publish a research paper and to share it with trusted veterinarians.

We sent the paper to doctors suggested by glider community people who sent along requests. We are not going to publish the vet's names or exact comments for privacy reasons.

If you want to contact your own vet and send the paper along (see URL below) you are free to do that. You may also wish to contact a vet you know from our list and ask them what they thought.

Not surprisingly, only a handful of vets provided a direct response to us. Not all of the vets at these facilities responded, but the list included: Camino Al Norte Animal Hospital, North Las Vegas, NV; Caring Hands Animal Hospital, Las Vegas, NV; Animal Kindness Veterinary, Las Vegas, NV; Texoma Veterinary Hospital, Sherman, TX; Animal Clinic of Farmers Branch, Farmers Branch TX; VCA Oso Creek Animal Hospital, Corpus Christi, TX; Parker Animal & Bird Clinic, Plano, TX; Alameda East Veterinary Hospital, Denver, CO; Watson Road Veterinary Clinic, St. Louis, MO; Clarkson Wilson Veterinary Clinic, Chesterfield, MO.

The vets at both Caring Hands Animal Hospital and Texoma Veterinary Hospital were positive enough about the paper that they have offered to get it published in veterinary circles. The general sentiment of those who gave us feedback is (collectively paraphrased): "Yes getting them wet for a while can be stressful for a glider but it's worth it if they can be paired with another glider if they are at risk. The chance of a better overall life outweighs the short-term stress associated with this method of introduction." Another vet concluded that any glider acclimated to hydrotherapy to treat open wounds would be less stressed by the method.

None of them characterized the method as "torture" or were outwardly negative about it.

But some of them did not respond so there is a chance that some negative sentiment exists, even though it was not shared with us. But it's more likely they are just too busy to respond. We followed-up a few times with each facility but dropped it after that because we did not want to be too aggressive in our solicitation.

The paper is called:

"Efficacy of Scent Masking and Wet Introduction Methods on At-Risk Sugar Gliders (Petaurus breviceps)"

You can find it at:

Research Paper

http://files.meetup.com/768852/EfficacyOfScentMaskingAndWetIntroductionMethods.pdf

Based on the feedback we have received our guidance is as follows:

1. Try traditional methods of introduction first as described in the paper
2. If all else fails, use scent masking and wetting with "at risk" gliders as described in the paper
3. Use a damp cloth to wet the gliders while you gently hold them, not a hose or shower
4. Use a non-alcoholic scent masker like tuna juice or non-alcoholic vanilla extract
5. During the night you can feed them separately but not together. Then feed full in morning.

Now that we have generally positive feedback from some veterinarians and no outright negative feedback from them, we consider this matter well discussed. If anyone would like to chat about it you can call me directly on 702-301-2445.

Ed M., co-director, Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@luckyglider.org
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1116202 - 05/19/11 11:20 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
jen102375 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 571
Loc: Kenosha,WI
How awful, Why not just take the time to do them right over time. What if they just don't care for one another? This is forceful intro's and in my opinion completely selfish on the owners part. I am sorry I just can't agree with this.
_________________________
Slave 2
Hubby Jon
3 daughters Ellivia(13)Hanna(10)Alayna(6)
6 Suggies: Harley/Abby, Pongo/Pracilla, Cash/Charity
4 wonderful Rescues

Jen
262 748-4128 24hr help
www.thegliderboutique.com

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEY'S (THANK YOU) smile



Top
#1116244 - 05/19/11 01:27 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Jen this is a last resort intro method after all other methods have failed as specified above
"1. Try traditional methods of introduction first as described in the paper"

Did you read the paper? All traditional methods are listed before the wet method.
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

Top
#1116245 - 05/19/11 01:30 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
jen102375 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 571
Loc: Kenosha,WI
Yes I did read it. I just think if it has to resort to that, then it shouldn't be done at all as in wasn't ment to be.
_________________________
Slave 2
Hubby Jon
3 daughters Ellivia(13)Hanna(10)Alayna(6)
6 Suggies: Harley/Abby, Pongo/Pracilla, Cash/Charity
4 wonderful Rescues

Jen
262 748-4128 24hr help
www.thegliderboutique.com

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEY'S (THANK YOU) smile



Top
#1116246 - 05/19/11 01:31 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Ed, this looks like a revised method of what I had seen earlier on regarding the wet method.

The method described above probably wouldn't be regarded as abuse and torture by vets & may be stomached better by glider people as well but the method I read prior may well have been seen as abusive.
_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

Top
#1116259 - 05/19/11 02:27 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Jen I have to respectively disagree due to personal experiences. Every glider is different, every situation is different. It is not something I would have ever thought I would have to do either. But Trixie and Tilly are darn sure glad I did.
edit: Jen with numbers (sorry cant remember them)not Trigger Jen


Edited by Cora (05/19/11 02:29 PM)
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

Top
#1116267 - 05/19/11 02:51 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: jen102375]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: jen102375
Yes I did read it. I just think if it has to resort to that, then it shouldn't be done at all as in wasn't ment to be.


Jen what wasn't meant to be was for single gliders to languish alone for the rest of their lives and be stressed and physically deteriorated in the process. Yes, some gliders do not experience this. One of our ten-year-old rescues came here after 8 years of being alone and he was fine. But many others are not that lucky.

Some gliders, as the paper indicates, self-mutilate and stress out as a result of being alone. Many don't. For those that do, a few hours of possible discomfort is outweighed by the better rest of their life. Let's see - a few hours versus... years of a greatly improved quality of life. We've used this (modified) method twice and I can tell you the results in both instances are far better than the condition they were in before hand. That said, we recommend exhausting all other traditional methods first.

You point out that some people may use this method with a selfish motivation. That is not a good thing if people do that. As rescuers and rehabilitators of over 70 gliders (this day anyway) I can tell you our particular motivation is to improve the quality of life of these animals. There is no selfish motivation here. There is plenty of room and dozens of cages. But we can not stand by and watch certain at-risk individuals continue to rip out their fur and deteriorate from the stress of being alone and do nothing about it. If you've experienced this with gliders in your care you know how truly awful that is. I mean you can dry off in minutes, but it's much harder to grow fur back.

After many months of trying different traditional methods on the individuals in question, trying this one paid off for a few. It may take a while to wrap your head around this because getting them wet sounds so awful, but you have to have a sense of proportion and alternative to get used to the idea. For us, it's about their health and long term comfort. My judgement says a few hours of supposed (not proven) discomfort is worth it to get rid of (proven) physical deterioration.

I respect your opinion and would never advocate forcing this on anyone. But on the other hand when I gaze into the eyes of an at-risk glider and watch it deteriorate, I am willing to do something like this to give it a chance at a better life. Maybe you can share the paper with your vet and ask him or her for their opinion too.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1116268 - 05/19/11 02:52 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Trigger]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Trigger
Ed, this looks like a revised method of what I had seen earlier on regarding the wet method.

The method described above probably wouldn't be regarded as abuse and torture by vets & may be stomached better by glider people as well but the method I read prior may well have been seen as abusive.


Hi Trigger, thank you for your comment. Yes admittedly, a lot of what went in to the paper and also our final recommendations was as a result of getting feedback from the glider community at large. We learned a lot in this process and now we are sharing what we learned.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1116318 - 05/19/11 05:13 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: jen102375]
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/26/09
Posts: 2294
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: jen102375
Yes I did read it. I just think if it has to resort to that, then it shouldn't be done at all as in wasn't ment to be.


Couldn't agree more.

I still find this method to be cruel, and unnecessary -- though admittedly not as abusive as the "original" wet method that was first discussed here. Still, I don't agree with this method at all, and will never be using it.


Edited by WintersSong (05/19/11 05:16 PM)
_________________________
~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin

Top
#1116364 - 05/19/11 06:54 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
While this is a method I would not personally use, I do appreciate the "community feedback" being taken into consideration as well as the full paper that has been written up about it.

I read the paper and again, while I don't approve of this method, I feel it does give information in a form that most can use to make a more educated decision as to whether or not they would use this method.

I just hope that others won't take this method and abuse it by bypassing all other methods first.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1116377 - 05/19/11 07:31 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Dancing]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Dancing
While this is a method I would not personally use, I do appreciate the "community feedback" being taken into consideration as well as the full paper that has been written up about it.

I just hope that others won't take this method and abuse it by bypassing all other methods first.

Completely agree, Dancing. I do sincerely appreciate that Ed took the uproar from his previous posts to heart and addressed concerns.

I think that - *for me* - I would abandon introductions before resorting to this stage. However, I understand and appreciate that Ed has taken the time to write this up, address concerns, and submit the paper to many vets.

I also sincerely hope that it doesn't replace trying other methods first.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1116429 - 05/19/11 09:22 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Megs
Unregistered


I agree.
There was a time when the idea danced in my head about trying this method SHOULD other methods fail (and they have), but ultimately I choose to just keep multiple cages.

I think it's a shame people have tried this method FIRST, instead of as a last resort, and it's all because they want something easy and fast... FOR THEM.

Intros shouldn't be about the owner's convenience. Shame on those who feel it should be.

Ed, thank you for keeping your word, and thank you for keeping us up to date. I was sincerely interested in the feedback you'd get from various vets. Hopefully the others will respond sometime soon.

Top
#1116605 - 05/20/11 12:12 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Faerie Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 429
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Personally, if I had a glider that was alone and nothing else worked, I would be willing to give it a try, rather than just leave the glider alone and miserable.
_________________________
~Michelle~

wife, mom to 3 teens and 1 adult,

and slave to my 8 gliders

Skeeter, Luna, Rocky, Patches, Sweetie, Big Sissy, Little Buddha, and Nikko

Top
#1116690 - 05/20/11 07:59 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Faerie]
jen102375 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 571
Loc: Kenosha,WI
Originally Posted By: Faerie
Personally, if I had a glider that was alone and nothing else worked, I would be willing to give it a try, rather than just leave the glider alone and miserable.



I have had gliders come to me who were alone and depressed some overgroomed, One missing fur on 90% of her body she was scared and would bite and lunge. Her prior living conditions were horrid she had never been with another glider. I just worked slow took me 7 months to do intros, but she is now part of a happy adult quad who all at the start of their arrivals here, had their own issues. We have to let them set the pace we must work with them when they are ready. I thought it was a good artical, I just dont agree with what I feel are rush methods and thats what I belive these are.
_________________________
Slave 2
Hubby Jon
3 daughters Ellivia(13)Hanna(10)Alayna(6)
6 Suggies: Harley/Abby, Pongo/Pracilla, Cash/Charity
4 wonderful Rescues

Jen
262 748-4128 24hr help
www.thegliderboutique.com

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEY'S (THANK YOU) smile



Top
#1117173 - 05/21/11 08:21 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
hdgliderslave
Unregistered


This paper is very well done

I'm a science student.. and because of that I always look at things scientificly. To me, I don't see this method as hurting the animal. You wet with a rag, and then are keeping them under observation. Its like giving them a bath in a way. I'm sure in the wild when it rains they would get wet if they were out and about and then have to clean themselves.

The other thing is that it plays on the animals natural instincts. Its not like they are being forced to do something that isn't coming natural to them.

Anyway: Again I agree.. try all other methods first. But if those don't work I would try this one.

Top
#1117192 - 05/21/11 10:09 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
buttercup
Unregistered


Well written paper or not...I still do NOT condone this method and would not attempt it or encourage others to do it either.

And while I totally agree that gliders do better in pairs or more...not every single glider out there that is kept alone suffers. Granted most DO do better with a cage buddy, that goes without saying but there ARE gliders that, for whatever reason, either don't want a cage buddy and/or are content to be alone. I have a very good friend who had a female glider, kept alone for 13 years....Ayla was healthy, happy, FRIENDLY, went everywhere with her humans and lived a wonderful life. Another friend has a male, kept alone for a long time before she got another male. Not sure if the males are together now but that was her plan.

When I got Tippy for Lethe...if for some reason they didn't accept each other, there would have been NO way on earth I'd try this method to get them to stay together in one cage...I don't really care how sugar coated the "instuctions" are or how "well written" this paper is...my gliders trust me...I wouldnt dream of betraying that trust and their mental well being just so "I" could house them together. I would have kept Tippy in a separate cage, in my glider room...and upped my interaction with ALL my crew to make sure all got the love and attention they need....but that's just me.

Top
#1117306 - 05/21/11 03:58 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: jen102375]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Jen I applaud your stick-to-it diligence and working with the glider to do intros for 7 months. That's dedication and exactly what we would do and in fact have done countless times. But after many months of failures with the animals in question and with their well being deteriorating, we tried this other method. We've only seen fit to do it twice and I don't think we will have to do it often at all. But when the correct circumstances present themselves, we may do it again.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1117311 - 05/21/11 04:23 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: ]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Stephanie I respect your opinion about the instructions. What you call sugar-coated is simply a laypersons' attempt to present the data to vets in a scholarly manner they are accustomed to when sharing animal husbandry and medical information with one another.

But to remove any doubt, yes, we got these individuals wet. And then they dried themselves off. And then their lives improved significantly.

Have no doubt that we did this only after many many months of failed attempts at traditional methods we practiced over the years. We have done many dozens of introductions and this one worked for these at-risk individuals. In fact I don't know but one or two people who have accomplished more introductions than we have at this rescue. So we have the benefit of history and lots of trial and error. I can promise you, the use of this method with the four gliders in question was not done lightly or frivolously.

You may be interested to know that our "traditional" introductions primer - now in its third edition - was never characterized as sugar-coated by anyone. We described those procedures in the same matter-of-fact way we describe this new method. This newer method; however, has drawn such passion from parts of the glider community that we were extra careful to write the paper in such a way that the reader (vets being the target audience) would concentrate on the facts and the research to back up the facts. This was done primarily to broach the subject in a way doctors would be most likely to actually read it and comment on it.

I also agree with you that doing this method "just to" house them together is just a bad idea and selfish.

But we did not use this method those two times "just to" house them together.

Sure it is an extreme method compared the the traditional ones we articulate in the paper - sugar coated or not - but it is done with the motivation of improving their lives - not for convenience.

We do nothing on our ranch (donkeys, sheep, goats, cats, dogs, llama - some rescued, some pets) or in the glider rescue for that matter for convenience. In the context of our rescue operation, we do what we do to help the animals plain and simple. I can assure you that in the ongoing efforts of a full-blown rescue, the word "convenience" is hardly part of our lexicon.

The fact that some human beings would do it to betray the animals' trust or do it strictly for some selfish convenience is a testimony to the short-sightedness of some of us human beings.

You may be interested in how your vet weighs in on the subject as well if you forward the paper. We've been pretty open about this whole thing as we are with all of our research. We will continue to be open and welcome all comments and suggestions. We have done that historically and will continue to do that as part of our charter which is to share our experiences so others - especially other animals - will benefit. We know that sometimes what we say and what we share will draw fire. That's part of what being transparent is about.

Many thanks for participating in the post and sharing your heartfelt opinions.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1117639 - 05/22/11 12:09 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
But to remove any doubt, yes, we got these individuals wet. And then they dried themselves off.


Ok, I have to comment on this. That IS sugar coating what was done. Simply getting them wet and letting them dry themselves off is NOT all you did. It is not the part that got everyone so riled up. It was EVERYTHING that was done. Getting them wet, keeping them in bright lights, withholding food etc. If you are going to "defend" your actions, you need to first "own" everything you did do to them that put them at (stress) risk.
What you wrote up in that paper submitted to the vets is NOT what you first described as having done to the gliders. So what you presented to the vets is a "sugar coated version" of what was done.

Simply getting a glider wet and drying them back off is NOT going to cause extreme stress. But combined with the other things that were done very well could and to an extent that the glider's health is compromised.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1117655 - 05/22/11 12:44 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
hdgliderslave
Unregistered


I went back and read the first post.. and original idea.. and no way would I try that. But what was described in the paper is something I would try

I was talking to a glider friend yesterday (She is actually my Great aunt.. and has 15 gliders). She is not on any of the forums, though I have invited her. She used something like this for her introductions. She uses a cloth and warm water to wet the glider. Not to the level of soaking, just to get them wet enough and wipe the scent off. She then would put them in an empty hospital cage with a waterbottle and a small bowl of fruit or treats. She told me she always did this in a room with a heater going so that the room was good a warm. After about 10 min of observing the gliders interact to see how things were going she would add a clean new unused pouch. After another 10 min of observing if there was no issue she would remove the now damp pouch and put the gliders in a second pouch and then hold them till they were dry. She always had a little towel and would dry them as they rested with her.

Years ago I remember visiting after she had introduced one female to two others and was holding and drying them. When talking to her she said she had had very good success with this and she had never seen stress with her gliders. I know that she tries all other methods first, and has them get to know each other other ways first. She has 15 gliders who live in her glider room, she has made the whole room their cage.. its really cool.

When I think of wet introductions this is what I think of because this was what I learned when I was younger. If my quad had not all the sudden gotten together I was planning on trying this method. But they all the sudden figured out a hierarchy and played together all night. I see nothing wrong with the method as I learned it because your not doing anything extreme to the glider. I have seen gliders get more wet when they had to be cleaned after getting into stuff.

Any way I'm not sure how other people do this.. or what they think of wet introductions... Just wanted to post what I had learned. I hope others don't attach me over this, cause i know people are very passionate about this topic. Sorry for the long post. If you have any questions I would be glad to answer, just PM them to me.

Top
#1117661 - 05/22/11 12:56 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28206
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
I recently received a phone call (three weeks ago) from a veteran glider owner who rescued two gliders. Since her current gliders have been together since birth, she has never had to deal with introductions. Her concern, after getting these two rescues (each separately, in a matter of days), was how she should go about introducing them. She is not a member of any forums. So, she looked to the internet for information and help. She came across a phone number and called it and got advice on introductions. She just didn't believe that this process could be correct and after finding my phone number, contacted me. She told me the story about her new babies and then the phone conversation she had with this "other person" and what their recommendation was for introductions. It was, almost word for word, wet introductions, the ORIGINAL version. This was three weeks ago...so forgive me if I question your "new and improved" method.
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

Top
#1117792 - 05/22/11 06:53 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Dancing]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Yes Teresa, you are correct. What we did first was different. Then we took your comments and others and suggestions from a lot of other people. So what we are advocating now is in fact different from what we first did.

That's called learning and being open to suggestion.

That's also owning up to the fact we did make changes.

We detailed what we did and the changes. We then wrote the paper in a way that vets would read it. Everyone is free to call that sugar-coating - that's ok.

I guess no matter what we do at this point people will continue to find fault if they want to. We were prepared for that and figured it's more important to keep our promises and publish the research and new recommendations. Not sure anything we say will really matter to our detractors but I reckon that's human nature so I'll roll with it. So it was quite predictable we'd get some negative responses even after the paper and conferring with vets. I knew that would happen and I knew you'd weigh in. I respect your opinion so that's quite OK.

Now the light thing - gliders don't like light so they avoid it and stay in the pouch. If there was no place for them to hide and snuggle together it would be bad. But please, they just retreat to the pouch so let's not make it out to be more than it is. It's not like we forced their eyes open and strapped them down against a light for goodness sakes. That's the opposite of sugar-coating. That's just hyperbole. They had fleeces and a pouch and retreated to the pouch - as we knew they would. Umm, that's what they do when its daylight so we are just simulating daylight so let's not make it more than it is.

Delaying their feeding is just a caution so they don't fight over the food. There's no reason to introduce food during introductions. In fact we have said that for years in our traditional introductions primer. No real changes there. So making that out to be extreme and bad is "anti-sugar coating" (exaggeration) making that sound so terrible is just stoking unnecessary flames. Gee whiz, delaying their food for five or six hours is not cruel. They all got fed in the morning and were just fine.

But despite the fact that we don't think it's absolutely necessary to feed them until morning, we were nonetheless deferential to those of you who were in fact concerned about the food, so we were just trying to be open to suggestion - but in reality we don't think it's absolutely necessary.

The method remains controversial, undoubtedly. I doubt no matter what we say will slake the desire to stoke the flames of discontent and judgement. We remain dedicated to improving the quality of the animals' lives. We hope we don't have to use this method again. But if the perfect storm of circumstances presents itself we will do it despite the controversy because in those certain circumstances, it is the right thing to do.

Thank you for sharing your opinions on this.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1117795 - 05/22/11 07:11 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: DCMuffin]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Aimee I am not sure who you are referring to so to remove any doubt, as of this date, we stand by the newest recommendations that are published in the paper.

Gail and I have synchronized on this most recently and have agreed on the final recommendations.

That said, we remain open minded to variations that people find workable or better. So our opinions may change over time.

That said, we cannot speak for anyone else but ourselves. I cannot guarantee everyone having contemplated the old or new method has actually read the paper or would mimic what we are saying.

Now if you call yourself or if you have someone call here as of this date and speak to me or Gail you will hear:

1. Exhaust all traditional methods
2. Don't do it for convenience or to combine large groups, and only for at-risk gliders.
3. Use a damp cloth or fleece to get them wet
4. Use non-alcoholic scent-masker like tuna fish juice or non-alcoholic vanilla extract

The paper is published on the link above so if anyone wants to read it and share it with their vet first we would recommend that. Of course we would not want to contradict what someone's vet says.

Some of you may be interested to find what your own vets say if you send them the paper. We are sure some will like it and some won't. Even the vet community is divided on methods of neutering, open wound treatment, and other treatments so it will not be surprising if they don't all agree on this either.

You should also know that we get calls from veteran glider owners too and some have called to report to us that they - after exhausting traditional methods - have tried this and have gotten good results. Some of them are loathe to go public because they don't want to catch a lot of grief from their peers.

I think our position at this point will be - after citing the recommendations - that people should share the paper with their vet before making a decision to try it.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1117804 - 05/22/11 07:33 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 1516
Loc: North Dakota
Ok I've been seeing replies to this but only read the first few. Thought I'd put in my opinion on it. To be completely honest, if it had to be done to keep a glider from being lonely than I would do it. May seem cruel to some but to me it means yet another chance to put gliders together so some don't have to be alone.

I just really hope it never comes to this with us smile
_________________________
Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com

Top
#1117820 - 05/22/11 08:13 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:

That's called learning and being open to suggestion.

That's also owning up to the fact we did make changes.


If you read my first post in this thread, I thanked you for listening to the "community" feedback and making changes. The "method" described in the paper is MUCH different than what was presented to the "community".

I did comment about your paper you submitted to the vets IS sugar coated (using someone elses term) compared to the way the "method" was originally presented to the "community".
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1117821 - 05/22/11 08:16 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
I have met Ed and Gail and visited the LGRS. I had a great time and I can tell you Ed And Gail care about their gliders, they need stealth wheels/cruisers and pouches(Just had to say that)! but they care! Gail sews bout like I do........LOL I really dont beleive Ed would ever purposely hurt a glider. Do i agree with the original method? No However he said he was going to revise it, get it vet approved and he did. He has stressed many times as does the article that it is only to be used after other methods fail and if the gliders are having physical symptoms from being alone as we know 90% of gliders are colony oriented and enjoy the company of other suggies.
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

Top
#1117847 - 05/22/11 09:19 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
From what I have read and understood, you only used two pairs of gliders in your research paper, correct? No matter what those two vets told you, it cannot be published as there is not a large enough sampling. I will have a hard enough time publishing my diet study with FORTY pair.

As it is, I would not use this method for any reason.
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


Top
#1117852 - 05/22/11 09:41 PM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Lucky_Glider]
hdgliderslave
Unregistered


If she publishes as a case study there only needs to be one. So Theoretically it can be published almost as is. Yay for science publication and working on four at the moment.

Top
#1117990 - 05/23/11 07:35 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: PocketPrincess]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Dear PocketPrincess, yes the scope of the paper is somewhat limited. We were humble about its scope with vets and characterized it as a layperson's view. Clearly the "sample" size is small.

One of the questions we asked the veterinarians was whether or not the method *merited* further study. Two of them answered that if they were able to get it circulated amongst their peers, the likelihood of a more controlled and comprehensive study would increase.

We would be interested in the view of your veterinarian as to whether or not the method merits further study - that is beyond our collective laypersons' opinions (yours and mine that is).

As to the notion of the paper being published, I reckon the definition of "publication" and its process depends on the audience and in the case of doctors, a recognized peer group. So the "level" of publication depends on accreditation of the source and also the uptake of the material by the intended audience. That is to say if you "publish" a YouTube video and no one clicks on it and shows interest, then sure it's published, but if it's not widely read than it's kind of a moot point.

When doctors submit papers to a medical conference director and the paper and subsequent speech is accepted and performed, that is considered "published" once the proceedings are printed or put on line. Ditto if a paper is vetted via a peer group process and accepted by the editors of a medical journal. A book is another matter because you can self-publish books and you can get a publishing company also to publish it with or without medical accreditation.

As to a sample size, there is nothing keeping a doctor from publishing a paper that hypothesizes or theorizes an idea such that the medical community can weigh in on whether further study is warranted. So no, the sample size matters little with a paper that purports to theorize and probe for further study.

That said, and strictly technically speaking, the moment I posted a persistent URL with a PDF form of the paper and brought it to the attention of doctors and peers in this community - it was published - albeit posted by a common layperson.

Clearly getting a paper "recognized" inside a professional community as part of a medical journal or proceedings at a medical conference - that is indeed a more credible level of publishing.

In today's internet age, the notion of publishing has taken on different meanings beyond the traditional definitions of publication. Having authored over a dozen books, a dozen or so patents, and after having my work published in many magazines and a scientific journal over the years, I completely understand the distinction of traditional publishing. By dint of my education and experience, and having worked for five years at United News & Media, I am familiar with the rigors of publishing. I bring this up merely to show that although I have a lot of experience in getting work published, I regard the paper in question at the bottom of the pile credibility-wise until it gets further peer review and doctors advance it if they see fit. So I am admittedly humble of this particular attempt. I consider circulating it here as "peer review" and sending to to vets as an "offering."

Many thanks for your comments and opinions.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
#1117991 - 05/23/11 07:40 AM Re: Wet Introduction Method Revisited & Research Paper [Re: Dancing]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:

That's called learning and being open to suggestion.

That's also owning up to the fact we did make changes.


If you read my first post in this thread, I thanked you for listening to the "community" feedback and making changes. The "method" described in the paper is MUCH different than what was presented to the "community".

I did comment about your paper you submitted to the vets IS sugar coated (using someone elses term) compared to the way the "method" was originally presented to the "community".


Teresa, it was kind of you to thank us for listening despite your objections to the method. I was touched by that and continue to respect your opinion on this matter. Sorry if I am repeating myself. I'm getting older...

Cheers, Ed
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
3 registered (Claralice, Lisa11, Ladymagyver), 25 Guests and 26 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
SarasotaSugs, Lisa11, JessicaSound, MRK, Ronin
6448 Registered Users
Forum Stats
29 posts in the last 24hrs
6448 Members
134 Forums
8988 Topics
148644 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
My Caramel Gliders anything I need to know about neutering?
by Claralice
04:14 PM
Three weeks in, first timer, questions .
by Lisa11
04:42 AM
RIP Spencer
by Cora
04:58 PM
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:37 PM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:25 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/08/17 09:33 AM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by mechnut450
12/08/17 06:28 AM
Happy Birthday Nejwig
by Feather
12/07/17 05:33 PM
Been Distracted...
by Ladymagyver
12/06/17 07:25 PM
Introductions - two male Joey's meeting 8 year old recently single
by 3dymondsgliders
12/05/17 03:57 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20204935
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12468333
TEXAS 658420
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 606937
OHIO 519057
Member Titles 460624
MISSOURI 394175
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 371711
OKLAHOMA 353970
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 352343
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017